Caucasus Chronicles

[xBaron Dants]

Hi all,

Remember the book I included in my wish list, that was written by the first greek ambassador to Armenia? Well, I found out my cousin owned it, so I saved my parents a buck or fifty by borrowing it from them.

I finished reading the book in one day. The language was simple, and easy-going. But I must say that it was veeeery very interesting.

What scared the hell out of me was when Armenia pretty much disappeared in 1993. If any of you recall (I was too young), but some Chechen Russian took over the parliament in October 93 in order to seize power of Russia. He failed to do so, and the country (or the army) supported Yeltsin. Had he suceeded, he would have called back the russian troops guarding the armo-turkish border, and Turkey would have probably invaded Armenia on the false grounds that Armenia was harboring Kurdish revolutionary training camps.

What I found most interesting is that the author had met the leader of the ARF, Hrair Maroukian, in Athens, a couple of days before the whole failed coup in Russia. Maroukian was aware of the WHOLE thing, due to his contacts in Russia. He spoke about it to the ambassador, but the ambassador didn't believe him.

In the end, of course, Maroukian was right. This led me to think about Levon Ter Petrosian. He had been accused by Tashnaks of being too nice with Turkey. In retrospect, did he have any choice? Would it have been any wiser to adopt a hard stance with a country that was threatening to attack you while your population had no food and was chopping down trees to keep warm?

Yet, the leader of the VERY people who accused Ter Petrosian was pretty much aware of what would have led to the demise of Armenia, and chose to do NOTHING.

Had Maroukian not died already, I would have killed him myself. In his inaction, he was as big of a traitor to his people than Vasag Suni, motivated only by his own political gains.

[Shahumyan]

Dashnaks? Traitors? i dont believe it!

n.b. extreme sarcasm was used in this post

[dstyle]

oh please, u both r on crack

[Shahumyan]

explain

also, what is your view of Dashnaks working with Hitler to attack Armenia?

[dstyle]

explain what to who, to a commie no its cool.
how bout u explain how nakhichevan, artsakh, javakh, gars and ardahan were given up.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by dstyle oh please, u both r on crack

Why on crack? Did the ambassador make this up? Can you find anything to disprove what he said?

You said ABSOLUTELY nothing in reply to the material in the post. 5 points for you for being a brainwashed kid who just follows what his dad once told him.

Artntsir al, yev nshmare vor azk@ goosagtsootenen arach gooka.

[Shahumyan]

"how bout u explain how nakhichevan, artsakh, javakh, gars and ardahan were given up."

ok, Lenin gave Nakhijevan and Artsakh to Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic, Stalin gave them to Azeri to please the Turks, this is why Stalin was not a communist, but opportunist twat

Kars, Ardahan and Van were SIGNED over to Turks by Dashnaks, 2 days before russian soldiers came...

After ww2, Stalin said Armenia should get Kars and Van back, but churchil vetoed the decision, instead NATO put missiles there to threaten to bomb armenians.... which is nice.

Wake up, and read a book and see ashkhareh oom dzerkna!

[dstyle]

first the soviets gave all the lands, because they were given in 1921. the Tashnags as you say were out of power by 1920.
http://www.armenianhistory.info/ussr.htm

this greek thing baron speaks about ive never heard of teh book or read it so i cant verify it.
If the A.R.F. knew about the plan that means enough people knew about it to be stopped.

Another thing, if levon and the powers at be didnt sell all the factories to there friends, and embezzle the millions upon millions from there own people, i doubt there would be that hunger problem.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by dstyle first the soviets gave all the lands, because they were given in 1921. the Tashnags as you say were out of power by 1920.
http://www.armenianhistory.info/ussr.htm

this greek thing baron speaks about ive never heard of teh book or read it so i cant verify it.
If the A.R.F. knew about the plan that means enough people knew about it to be stopped.

Another thing, if levon and the powers at be didnt sell all the factories to there friends, and embezzle the millions upon millions from there own people, i doubt there would be that hunger problem.

Well, you just admit that you have not even heard of the book, but claimed that I was on crack beforehand. Blind brainwashed kid. You can't even seem to admit that this organization, WHICH IS JUST A POLITICAL PARTY, can ever commit mistakes. Kirke garta, ge khosink.

Last part of your post is veeeery debatable. I do agree that the privatization process was completely flawed, but you seem to be forgetting that Armenia just broke off from a communist empire, went through a major earthquake, and was at war with Azerbaidjan. Also, it was facing blockades by both the East and the West, and we all know how reliable the damn georgians have been for us.

[jahannam]

Originally posted by Baron Dants Hi all,

Remember the book I included in my wish list, that was written by the first greek ambassador to Armenia? Well, I found out my cousin owned it, so I saved my parents a buck or fifty by borrowing it from them.

I finished reading the book in one day. The language was simple, and easy-going. But I must say that it was veeeery very interesting.

What scared the hell out of me was when Armenia pretty much disappeared in 1993. If any of you recall (I was too young), but some Chechen Russian took over the parliament in October 93 in order to seize power of Russia. He failed to do so, and the country (or the army) supported Yeltsin. Had he suceeded, he would have called back the russian troops guarding the armo-turkish border, and Turkey would have probably invaded Armenia on the false grounds that Armenia was harboring Kurdish revolutionary training camps.

What I found most interesting is that the author had met the leader of the ARF, Hrair Maroukian, in Athens, a couple of days before the whole failed coup in Russia. Maroukian was aware of the WHOLE thing, due to his contacts in Russia. He spoke about it to the ambassador, but the ambassador didn't believe him.

In the end, of course, Maroukian was right. This led me to think about Levon Ter Petrosian. He had been accused by Tashnaks of being too nice with Turkey. In retrospect, did he have any choice? Would it have been any wiser to adopt a hard stance with a country that was threatening to attack you while your population had no food and was chopping down trees to keep warm?

Yet, the leader of the VERY people who accused Ter Petrosian was pretty much aware of what would have led to the demise of Armenia, and chose to do NOTHING.

Had Maroukian not died already, I would have killed him myself. In his inaction, he was as big of a traitor to his people than Vasag Suni, motivated only by his own political gains.

now now baron, that's not nice.
the fact that this guy is an embassador doesn't make his stories unbiased.
now, I know nothing about this guy or what political party he belongs to. but since the letting Tashnagtsoutyoun and its leaders down is the most interesting part of his book, then I'm guessing that was the goal of his book, therefore that he belongs to an anti-Tashnag political party.
You accuse dstyle of having been "brainwashed by his dad", yet you leave away the fact that you might as well be raised (or should I say "brainwashed"?) under different political influences.(i.e. the hnchag lense)
and your "Had Maroukian not died already, I would have killed him myself." proves that!
from his speeches to books and articles written about him, I think Maroukhian is one of the most hairenaser people ever existed.
but I'm not gonna get into that right now.
we can either choose to be mature "everyone does it their own way" patriotic Armenians, or we can start threads bashing other Armenian political parties.
come on now.
I thought you knew better.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by jahannam now now baron, that's not nice.
the fact that this guy is an embassador doesn't make his stories unbiased.
now, I know nothing about this guy or what political party he belongs to. but since the letting Tashnagtsoutyoun and its leaders down is the most interesting part of his book, then I'm guessing that was the goal of his book, therefore that he belongs to an anti-Tashnag political party.
You accuse dstyle of having been "brainwashed by his dad", yet you leave away the fact that you might as well be raised (or should I say "brainwashed"?) under different political influences.(i.e. the hnchag lense)
and your "Had Maroukian not died already, I would have killed him myself." proves that!
from his speeches to books and articles written about him, I think Maroukhian is one of the most hairenaser people ever existed.
but I'm not gonna get into that right now.
we can either choose to be mature "everyone does it their own way" patriotic Armenians, or we can start threads bashing other Armenian political parties.
come on now.
I thought you knew better.

Ok, I borrowed this book from that armenian family in Montreal you know veeeery well :D, and as you know, they would not buy a book that is clearly anti-tashnag. Does that give him more credibility?

This man (the ambassador) is a respected diplomat (now serving as Greece's Ambassador to Canada), and was just as critical of the Ter Petrosyan administration.

The reason why I said the part about Maroukhian was "most interesting" (as in very interesting, and not the most interesting) was because I found it bothersome that Maroukhian was aware of the whole situation, and chose to do nothing. Will you also tell me I'm crazy if I say that the ARF and the government did not cooperate too well in Armenia's first years of independance? Is that another taboo subject that we aren't allowed to discuss?

Hairenaser? I'm sure he was: he wouldn't have been the head of the ARF otherwise. In this particular situation, however, he failed to act, and it bothered me.

Once again, I am neither hnchag, tashnag, chootag, nothing.
I have given credit to the ARF where it deserved (ie organizing the armenian resistance back in the Ottoman empire days), but a political party and its figures should not be immunized against criticism. You and dstyle BOTH REFUSE to believe that Maroukhian was aware of the situation. It's as if it's illegal to question the actions of any politician affiliated with the ARF.

dstyle said I was on crack, as if I pulled this out of my derrière, and you still think I'M the one that should know better?

Come on...vor tare gabrink?

[TigranJamharian]

it is very scary to think of the realities of the world and the things like this that were hid from the general public. The world is a very xxxxed up place and it takes men that kno what they are doing and understand realities of the world to protect their nation.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by TigranJamharian it is very scary to think of the realities of the world and the things like this that were hid from the general public. The world is a very xxxxed up place and it takes men that kno what they are doing and understand realities of the world to protect their nation.

I guess we had nobody like that in 1993. Not in government, nor in opposition. And they all started out with the right ideas (at least those in government). Shame...

[dstyle]

Baron u say u have no biasis in the political arena, but alas all you have been doing in the last few months is posting anti ARF propaganda. i wouldnt have reacted if it werent for that. and im gona try to find that book :) . seems that im not the ones thats been brainwashed, but oh well.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by dstyle Baron u say u have no biasis in the political arena, but alas all you have been doing in the last few months is posting anti ARF propaganda. i wouldnt have reacted if it werent for that. and im gona try to find that book :) . seems that im not the ones thats been brainwashed, but oh well.

I will admit, I do bring up the flaws of the ARF. I do so for one reason. In my opinion, the ARF has reached a certain level that it has become almost holy for some of its members. The fact that no one can question any actions brought on by a member of the ARF elite (as proven by this thread, let me remind you that your first reaction was telling me that I'm on crack) is downright silly. I can go on and on about Levon Ter Petrosyan's stupid privatizations, but it has been talked about again and again. He does not seem to enjoy the same immunity as, Maroukhian, for example.

Do I agree with all what the Ramgavars do? Or the Hnchaks? Or the Communists? Of course not. HOWEVER, I do not see the same fanaticism in these parties, and have never heard such idiocies as "Ov vor Ramgavar ché, hay ché". How every armenian patriotic song has been modified to include the name of only Tashnagtsootyoon is also a sort of self-segregation, one that our small nation cannot afford.

Once again, hats off to the Tashnagtsootyoon for what it has achieved in the past. From Dro (if only he were as good a politician as he were a general), to its actions to make our cause known to the world, to Zoravar Antranig. But one cannot continue to worship a political party based on what it was upon its foundation, as opposed to what it is now. Even the great Zoravar quit the Tashnagtsootyoon once he saw the mistakes it made.

The only reason why this thread has been dubbed as "political party bashing" instead of "intelligent conversation" is because some people still cannot grasp the idea that the ARF is a party among many others, with its strengths, and also its flaws.

Besides that, I strongly encourage you to go get the book. Makes you feel proud of what Armenia has achieved since those times.

[TigranJamharian]

But one cannot continue to worship a political party based on what it was upon its foundation, as opposed to what it is now. Even the great Zoravar quit the Tashnagtsootyoon once he saw the mistakes it made.

thats a very good point you make there. your entire argument was also very sound. when dashnaktsyun was founded they had very pure ideals and dedicated themselves to the public but as you say every political party slowly morphs into somehting that seeks out its own goals and puts the interests of the people as perhaps a second priority. If only all political parties stuck to their roots and their initial goals.

Me and you will found our own party that was like dashnaktsyun in early 20th century and we will go around and personally beat all corrupt and lying officials and rich dirty xxxxs who dont dedicate themselves to the nation but only to how many villas they can buy and how many mercedes they can get by the time they die.i think the key is a hands on approach, if kocharian actually went in and poked around himself he could find all these corrupt motherxxxxers but he doesnt want to because many of them are people he owes his political leverage to. Corruption in reality is very visible and it is not hard to find the people that are corrupt the hard part is punishing them because they have connections within the government and its like a ring of corruption.

The only way that a politician can do his job well as president or anyone else is if he comes into power without the help of anyone so that when he is in power he does not have to play to any groups. for example look at the republicans in the us. They win the presidency by taking contribution from all these oil companies and big industries but then when they are in office they cannot take an unbiased route but must take into account which one of their contributors they will hurt or whatnot.

[dstyle]

Baron.
Theres a lot the Tashnagtzootyoon has done since then. Its just none was done in Armenia til the 90's. But in the diasparo it has achieved great things, especially in beirut in the worst times.
About that if ure not tashnag ure not armenian, i agree those people r idiots lol.
And about the antranig thing, thats a whole different topic lol thatll probably have as much to discuss as this topic here.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by dstyle Baron.
Theres a lot the Tashnagtzootyoon has done since then. Its just none was done in Armenia til the 90's. But in the diasparo it has achieved great things, especially in beirut in the worst times.
About that if ure not tashnag ure not armenian, i agree those people r idiots lol.
And about the antranig thing, thats a whole different topic lol thatll probably have as much to discuss as this topic here.

So we basically come to the same point. Ah, the beauty of debating. :)

My whole point in "bashing" tashnaktzootyoon was to awaken people to the reality that it is, after all, only a political party. You just said that the people who take it further are idiots, so I have no reason to disagree.

Yes, the tashnaktzootyoon has done many things in the diaspora, and I give them credit for that too. On a personal note, I still disagree with its collaboration with the CIA against Soviet Armenia as Soviet or not, it was still our Armenia. But that is, I guess, a difference in ideology. Those times are now over, and a new era of TOTAL cooperation must begin soon, if we really do wish to achieve anything. I also have some cases of what has happened between the AGBU and the Tashnag agoomp here in Montreal (some really silly actions), but it basically comes down to the same point of COOPERATION instead of adversity or competition, and there is no use discussing it.

Tigran, you also make strong points. If I were Kocharian, I would screw all the corrupt politicians in the last year of my term, as I would not have anything to gain from them. What a sweet victory it would be if Kocharian had actually came to power with the help of these corrupt people, only to ruin them later on. If that were the man's plans, he would be a hero. I love your analogy to the US republicans. What they do to thank those big corporations is mind-boggling.

[TigranJamharian]

im really afraid about whether kocharian is the man that i tought he was, someone truly interested in the welfare of the country, or not. Im really afraid of what is going to happen in 2008 and whether he is going to try to cling on to power, my heart tells me htat he wont but you never know. yeah that would be sweet indeed if he xxxxed over those dirty bastards. it just confounds me though how these people are able to put aside their nationalism and just swindle mercilessly.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by TigranJamharian im really afraid about whether kocharian is the man that i tought he was, someone truly interested in the welfare of the country, or not. Im really afraid of what is going to happen in 2008 and whether he is going to try to cling on to power, my heart tells me htat he wont but you never know. yeah that would be sweet indeed if he xxxxed over those dirty bastards. it just confounds me though how these people are able to put aside their nationalism and just swindle mercilessly.

I am also waiting for 2008. I want to see how Kocharian will act in his last few months, when he no longer has anything to lose. I still want to see him as a good man who is surrounded by way too many idiots, but he will have to prove that right. I can't see a man who played such a big role for Armenia and Artsakh during the war end up being no more than a corrupt official like so many others. If he doesn't do something major, I will have to give up all hope on him.

[dstyle]

ya armenian vs armenian fighting is bs. ive heard about those fights. gay. ya.

[vrej]

first off i met the author of your book and listened to his lecture last year when we came to my university. everything you read in th book should not be taken for face value my friend...i dont fully grasp what your trying to say through the excerp your talking about with maroukian, any smart individual would have known the situation and how fatal it would have been, how do we know attempts were not made to aid the situation, or if anything could have been done at all?

to dubb Tashnags as traitors, as the commy did in the first reply is totally childish, and for it to come from an individual who is patronising communism through his logo is hypocritic because those comy Armenians were the real traitors my friend, when they suppressed and hunted down our intellectuals, and thinkers, and who were about to liquidate Armenia to the turks and azeris if it was'nt for karekin njteh...

yes every political party has faults, i agree.. even tashnagtzootyoon, but all i hear in all these posts all over this site is tashnag this tashnag that.... i smell jealousy, hey if i dont care what you are or who u are before you bash tashnagtzootyoon ask yourself if your doing even half the things an A.Y.F youth is doing for the country, or a Hye Tad member is doing for our future and armenia? go ahead ask your self and then critisize

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by vrej yes every political party has faults, i agree.. even tashnagtzootyoon, but all i hear in all these posts all over this site is tashnag this tashnag that.... i smell jealousy, hey if i dont care what you are or who u are before you bash tashnagtzootyoon ask yourself if your doing even half the things an A.Y.F youth is doing for the country, or a Hye Tad member is doing for our future and armenia? go ahead ask your self and then critisize

Hmm, I just asked myself, and I feel completely comfortable.

As I already said, I do not enjoy seeing a political party gaining this "holiness" where it CANNOT BE CRITICIZED. I find that to be dangerous.

By the way, you calling it jealousy further proves my point of self-segregation. You still see non-tashnags as "them" or the "other guys", right? This sense of "our youth is doing much more than THEIR youth is"...

[vrej]

no not nessacarily baron dantz, i would love to see the youth of other orginizations do more and i always encourage them to when i discuss issues with them be it Tashnagtzagan or not, the jelousy im talking about is jelouse due to certain individuals not being able to find the medium through wich they can act, and if that ease is not there for some individuals they don't act.

For me the medium is A.R.F.Y.O.C whose goals i belive in and were i want to work towarss those goals with every thing i can do within the boundaries of my ability.

and about critisizm.. of cuorse it can be critisized, why shouldnt it be, everyone makes mistakes its ok.. Tashnagtzootyoon has always been critisized and it still is as we can see, some accept it some dont. but when it comes to a point were it is being bashed and purpusly defaced without any credible information in some cases, that is wrong and any tashnagtzagan will stand up against that.

For its members it is a holy thing, and i don't see any thing wrong with that.

[vrej]

Originally posted by Baron Dants
By the way, you calling it jealousy further proves my point of self-segregation. You still see non-tashnags as "them" or the "other guys", right? This sense of "our youth is doing much more than THEIR youth is"...

I do not see the non-tashangs as "them" or "the other guys" no i see them as Armenians, and work hard to make whoever it is feel the existance of the cause and justice we are fighting for. Yes i get pissed at individuals who don't care about Armenia's rights, but when i see an Armenian, whatever or whoever it may be, that is active and at the least talks Armenian with his friends, about Armenian issues, and is worried about our country and people in and out of their lands than that indiviual is doing something and i see that individual as a true Armenian.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by vrej I do not see the non-tashangs as "them" or "the other guys" no i see them as Armenians, and work hard to make whoever it is feel the existance of the cause and justice we are fighting for. Yes i get pissed at individuals who don't care about Armenia's rights, but when i see an Armenian, whatever or whoever it may be, that is active and at the least talks Armenian with his friends, about Armenian issues, and is worried about our country and people in and out of their lands than that indiviual is doing something and i see that individual as a true Armenian.

Fair enough. I agree wholeheartedly. Who cares what organization they work with, as long as they do something. I still think that an effort should be put to present more joint events, and create a sort of partnership between all those different organizations.

When I went to Armenia this summer with the AGBU scouts of Montreal, we climbed Mount Arakadz with Homentmen scouts from Armenia. It was a blast. More stuff like that should be done locally. We're getting there though...