Working with Turks

[HyeJinx1984]

For the last few days I've been a P.A. (Production Assistant) on a student film for the American Film Institute. It's hardly the first time I've done that and as usual it was quite a bit of fun as well as a great learning experience. However I ran into something I didn't think would happen... Turkish people on the set. In fact, the entire Art Department, which was four people, were Turkish, and I just happened to have been assigned as an Art P.A..

The whole thing felt.... weird. I don't know, just helping Turks felt weird to me, even though they as individuals seemed like cool people... but still, something about it felt wrong... I just wanted to go home, it was as if just being in their presence was disturbing to my soul or something, I couldn't describe it.

Again, they never did anything wrong to me... in fact they bought us lunch (I felt weird taking "gifts" from a Turk) and I think one of the girls in the group had a crush on me cause every time I looked over at her she was already looking at me, and blushed and looked away each time. But still.. hearing them talking in their language, hearing them laughing, helping them work, and not to mention being 'out numbered' by Turks (I was obviously the only Armenian there) just felt... wrong. Everything about the situation made my skin crawl in a way I've never experienced before, and as nice as they were...

...I wanted to kill them.

[patlajan]

Well this is an interesting topic. I worked in a small office with a Turkish guy once. I was young and didn't know any Turks so I didn't know what to expect. Never really had any problems. Most Turks are basicly oblivious to why we're busy hating them. I think their education system avoids the topic. We even joked about how the first chapter in the users' manual to being Armenian was to hate Turks.

[Tres Bien]

"We even joked about how the first chapter in the users' manual to being Armenian was to hate Turks."
That was quite funny said patlajan! :)
But as you get older, i think most of us grows out of it...
A turkish girl at univversity whom i used to study with, (she had no knowleadge about the genoide commited by turkey)
asked me once, you must always bash us turks at home , dont you
I said "no, we dont".

Because, actually we dont anymore. We bash Israelis instead, lol.
I understand now why my parents felt this anger towards turks, it was just taken wrongly by us, as youre young and dont know whats going on in world-politics.now i have a better knowleadge, though i usually think that turks are very badly educated , and should get a grip of themselves and learn about their history, there are many racist turks out there(not to mention Azeris...)



their are good turks too, yes:) but that is not the point. I dont think its wrong for us to critisize turks, not after all they have dont to us, i understand if some armenians hate them...

[HyeJinx1984]

Well this is an interesting topic. I worked in a small office with a Turkish guy once. I was young and didn't know any Turks so I didn't know what to expect. Never really had any problems. Most Turks are basicly oblivious to why we're busy hating them. I think their education system avoids the topic. We even joked about how the first chapter in the users' manual to being Armenian was to hate Turks.

Funny how it's so "annoying" that we hate them, completely side stepping the reasons why we do. i actually had a long conversation with my friend, a xxx, on the way home after the shoot. He said as a xxx he has no problems with Germans, but with Nazis, and since Germany is not a Nazi state anymore he has no problem with Germans and since the Armenian Genocide is even older than the Holocaust, we should be over it also.

I thought about it for a second then came back with a response that the xxxish/holocaust situation is different from the armenian/genocide one.

1st an fore most, Germany admits the holocaust, Turky doesn't. Once the holocaust was official and in writing, the xxxish people and Germans could begin the forgiveness process. It's impossible for Armenians to forgive the Turkish government because although it's not under Ottoman rule any longer, the current government is unwilling to admit it's atrocitites. How can you forgive and put differences behind you when the person is unwilling to admit what they've done wrong? And as well all know, the reason they're not admiting it is because the ideal thing would be for it to be forgotten over the generations to the point where people wouldn't even ASK them to admit it.

2nd, and this relates to the first, is that not only should we have something against the government but the people themselves. It's easy to say "I have nothing against the Turkish people, just the Turkish government" if the people themselves were on our side... but the Turkish people themselves deny it ever happened (because they were brainwashed into thinking so), and anyone who's a genocide denyer (I know that's not spelled write) is an enemy of mine... hence, Turkish PEOPLE by the nature of brain washing still deserve to be stared at evily by us.

3rd, It's not JUST the Genocide. Sure, some people think that it's ridiculous to hate a nation for something that happened about 3 or 4 generations ago, and I'd agree with them in that... but Turky is still to this day mortal enemies with the country of Armenia. They're still taking land from us (as are the Azerbaijanis) and wasn't it just the other day that Turkish soldiers killed like 19 Armenians or something? It's not just the past we're pissed about... it's the current state of things as well.

I have a feeling the reason the Turkish guy you worked with was laughing was because in his head he was thinking "Ah ha! It's working, the newer Armenians are finally gonna stop giving us xxxx!!! haha!!!"

Well, I'm still a xxxx giver.

[Tres Bien]

No i dont agree with you, armenians are not the xxxs givers!!!Hate them as much as you like. Despite all the things that turks have done, the armenians or armenia never acted the same way as the turks have.

[sSsflamesSs]

You know, as much as it's "unreasonable" to hate/dislike someone when that someone is not even aware/educated as to why you hate/dislike him/her, I still get a very awkward feeling in my gut when I come face to face with a Turk. I feel this hatred just gush into my heart, in a split second. I try to avoid them, because it's very unpleasant for me to be around them. I don't know how to explain it, but I'm sure some of you guys understand. So HyeJinx, you have a very valid point.

[HyeJinx1984]

No i dont agree with you, armenians are not the xxxs givers!!!Hate them as much as you like. Despite all the things that turks have done, the armenians or armenia never acted the same way as the turks have.

By giving xxxx I meant giving them constant, ugh, bugging to admit the genocide. And obviously Armenians have never done anything wrong to Turks.

However here's something I wonder... Armenians hate Turks... but do Turks HATE Armenians? I think it's more of an "annoyance" than anything else... because let's face it, Turkish PEOPLE haven't done anything really wrong to Armenians (this does not include the government) so they feel annoyed that we keep bugging them to admit something that THEY in particular did not do. I can see what the Turks of today don't want to admit it... they think of themselves as a good people who've done nothing wrong and don't want the actions of past generations to tarnish their current generation's image... I can understand that, however, if they just came out and admit that their ancestors in the government and military did in fact commit Genocide we finally start getting over this chapter in our history... because by NOT admiting it it's just an open book waiting to be closed... and it will be closed one way or another.

Other than obvious reasons as to why the Genocide should be made official, the reasons I want it to be official is for exposure. Because it's not official there can be no major release of a movie about the Armenian genocide because America and Turkey are friends. America had no reason to dispute a movie like Schindler's List running around in theaters because Germany admits it... a movie like Ararat however could never get major exposure because it tarnishes the image of Turkey to American audiences and America wouldn't go for that. And if anyone thinks the government had no control over what does and doesn't get played in theaters, just look at the whole "Farenheight 911" fiasco.

[Darorinag]

I have no problems with Turks who have no problems with Armenians.

[HyeJinx1984]

I have no problems with Turks who have no problems with Armenians.
Depends what you define as "a problem." To me denying or downplaying the Genocide, as every living breathing Turk does, is a problem.

[Crimson Glow]

I have no problems with Turks who have no problems with Armenians.

Do you have problems with xxxs who have no problems with Armenians?

To me denying or downplaying the Genocide, as every living breathing Turk does, is a problem.

The second part of that sentence is not necessarily true. I went over this story once in a different section of the forum, but here's the run down again:

I was ringing up this guy at work, and he paid by credit card. Well, when you run a credit card, the name, #, and expiration date always come up. So I noticed the name. I asked him what nationality he was. He goes "Turkish". My eyes bulged for a VERY quick, split second, and I regained composure and nodded politely (cuz....I'd like to keep my job). I could see he was waiting for me to converse with my own answer, but I just stood their, patiently waiting for the receipt to come up. So finally, he asks me "what are you?" I said "Armenian". This time, HIS eyes bulged, and he went "OHH! On behalf of the Turkish people, I apologize!" I was a bit startled by this response. I was expecting a discussion of the region, or no response at all, etc. The last thing I expected was an apology. We talked for a few minutes about life here and back home (I was born and raised in America, so this was mostly him relying stories), and then he was on his way. So...yeah, there you have it.

[Darorinag]

Last I checked, I wasn't a spokesperson of all Armenians.

No, knowledgeable denial is not "knowing the facts and still denying the genocide." Here's a definition of denial:

"A refusal to accept or believe something, such as a doctrine or belief."

You might have knowledgeable reasons to refuse to accept a theory about the genocide. To each argument, there are two sides. And don't tell me "there is proof that the Armenian genocide took place", because that's not the point. Point is, denial doesn't necessarily refer to something that DID happen. For example, the entire world might believe in the holocaust story, but I might think that it didn't happen, and use historical facts, etc. to prove that it didn't. Some of my facts might be wrong, and even if the holocaust did really take place, I might make some knowledgeable arguments instead of just saying "screw that, there was no genocide" without supporting my claims.

[HyeJinx1984]

There's these two demons in Hell, one has been there a while and one is new. The new demon is still learning the ropes, so the older demon shows him where they keep the souls. The way they organize stuff in hell is that they have these huge pots with the names of different ethnicities on them. The new demon realizes all the pots have lids on them to keep the souls from escaping, except for one... the pot entitled "Armenians" has no lid. The newbie asks the more experienced demon "How come there's no lid on the armenian pot? aren't you afraid they will escape?" the older demon laughs and responds "Oh, they don't need a lid.. every time one tries to climb out, someone pulls him back down" or in other words "Armenians are always bringing each other down"

I just remember that joke whenever we get into stupid little bickering matches on this website... In any case, I didn't type that as pointing a finger to anyone in particular even though it seems as though I did... just something that bugs me from time to time.

And the reason i ask if there's a problem between Armenians and xxxs is because I was wondering why he would have asked that question at all in the first place, and secondly because above someone made the comment that "Because, actually we dont anymore. We bash Israelis instead"... all this adds up to me asking "is there a problem between Armenians and xxxs I'm not aware of?"

[patlajan]

That was a good joke. I will use it. :)

[HyeJinx1984]

speaking of Homo, that reminds... DAMN THERE ARE A LOT OF GAY ARMENIANS!!!!! I mean, everyone always tells me "no, no there aren't any Gay Armenians, we're better than that" and all that crap, but xxxx man, there's a crap load of gay Armenians... kinda cracks me up since we're supposed to be so against it, but there you go.

And do you really think the Holocaust didn't happen or where you just using a hypthetical example? Because, although we all know that the Genocide took place, there's MORE physical evidence that the holocaust did happen, and being the people that we are, I'd think we were more sympathetic to cultures who suffered through a genocide like we did.

[SagGal]

We hate Turks because it reminds us of the Armenian Genocide. Simple as that. Doesn't matter if they're nice or not, we hate Turks because they remind us of the Genocide and the same goes for Azeris because of what happened in Baku and etc. But do you guys honestly hate those Turks who are not educated about the Genocide and who just simply don't know about it?
I really don't see why any Armenian needs to hate a Turkish person regarding something that the person has no knowledge of. Do them a favor and teach/tell them, but don't be an a** to them.
speaking of Homo, that reminds... DAMN THERE ARE A LOT OF GAY ARMENIANS!!!!! I mean, everyone always tells me "no, no there aren't any Gay Armenians, we're better than that" and all that crap, but xxxx man, there's a crap load of gay Armenians... kinda cracks me up since we're supposed to be so against it, but there you go.You can't have every single person in a certain ethnicity or culture think and be the same. It's ridiculous, not to mention stupid. Of course there are Armenian homosexuals. Why wouldn't there be?

[patlajan]

speaking of Homo, that reminds... DAMN THERE ARE A LOT OF GAY ARMENIANS!!!!! I mean, everyone always tells me "no, no there aren't any Gay Armenians, we're better than that" and all that crap, but xxxx man, there's a crap load of gay Armenians... kinda cracks me up since we're supposed to be so against it, but there you go.

And do you really think the Holocaust didn't happen or where you just using a hypthetical example? Because, although we all know that the Genocide took place, there's MORE physical evidence that the holocaust did happen, and being the people that we are, I'd think we were more sympathetic to cultures who suffered through a genocide like we did.

This post makes me more eager to travel to California and see this Armo hub you have developed over there. Must be quite a site.

[HyeJinx1984]

This thread has gone way off topic.. and I admit, much to my doing as well as others.. so let's try and bring it back.

Working with Turks.

Anyone else have experience in this and how do you feel we should react when approached by Turks?

[Anonymouse]

I think this would be a good time to tell you all that I just got a brand new pet Turk. He came with a scimitar but I didn't like it. He dances for treats.

http://cspace.org.uk/volco/North_Carolina/turk/pet.JPG

[leo007]

Anyone remember that scene in the movie "Ararat" where the Turkish actor says to the Armenian guy something along the lines of: "Look the genocide was a long time ago. I had nothing to do with it, my family had nothing to do with it. We're both living in another country now, just get over it".

I'm sure that there are Turks who believe that the genocide happened and are ashamed that their people would do something like that, but the majority probably just don't care because they haven't been taught anything about it, hell a majority of Armenians these days don't even care.

[spiral]

I remember once I bought something at a kiosk, and after making the purchase, I learned that the lady who sold it to me (the owner, I assume) was a Turk. I felt so guilty. I threw away whatever it was that I bought.

[HyeJinx1984]

Anyone remember that scene in the movie "Ararat" where the Turkish actor says to the Armenian guy something along the lines of: "Look the genocide was a long time ago. I had nothing to do with it, my family had nothing to do with it. We're both living in another country now, just get over it".

I'm sure that there are Turks who believe that the genocide happened and are ashamed that their people would do something like that, but the majority probably just don't care because they haven't been taught anything about it, hell a majority of Armenians these days don't even care.

True, but even Casey Jones' attitude in that movie wasn't the right one in my opinion. The thing that sets our genocide apart from the holocaust is that they have a sense of closure. Yes, it happened, the government responsible admited it apologized and there have been, at least some, reperations rewarded and a sense of "moving on." We don't have that, we're a wounded people still looking for closure. The main reason I'm the most worried is because that as time goes on and on people will know less an dless about the Genocide's occurance until finally people forget. By making it official it finally puts the issue to rest but it will always have a place in the history books and will be a valid claim recognized by the people who commited it, and that is very very important. I'm more willing then anyone to forgive and move on, but we can't until we've been given the politcal "Sorry guys."

Also, thinking about the emotions I was dealing with when working with these particular turks was not one of Anger and Rage, but more Sadness and Frustration... and I think that's a subtle but important difference. In my humble opinion, Armenians aren't so much angry as we are sad and hurt... which in turn, could lead to anger and rage. When I looked at the four of them, I didn't want to go start a fight... instead I just wanted to show the pain that I was still feeling from a fight I wasn't even inolved in. But like I said before, a part of me was also waiting to snap.

Hmm.. that was a lot of contradictions and illogalness in one paragraph... that's what happens when you get emotional I guess.

[SagGal]

I remember once I bought something at a kiosk, and after making the purchase, I learned that the lady who sold it to me (the owner, I assume) was a Turk. I felt so guilty. I threw away whatever it was that I bought.Yep. Just like not buying anything that's made in Turkey.

[anileve]

A very interesting thread HyeJinx. I am too tired to contribute anything, but I want to express one thing. Crimson you are the most self-composed, rational and open minded man of this forum. I admire your outlook on things. Now if you could just tone down your Matrix philosophy you'd be set. :D

[leo007]

True, but even Casey Jones' attitude in that movie wasn't the right one in my opinion. The thing that sets our genocide apart from the holocaust is that they have a sense of closure. Yes, it happened, the government responsible admited it apologized and there have been, at least some, reperations rewarded and a sense of "moving on." We don't have that, we're a wounded people still looking for closure. The main reason I'm the most worried is because that as time goes on and on people will know less an dless about the Genocide's occurance until finally people forget. By making it official it finally puts the issue to rest but it will always have a place in the history books and will be a valid claim recognized by the people who commited it, and that is very very important. I'm more willing then anyone to forgive and move on, but we can't until we've been given the politcal "Sorry guys."



Don't get me wrong, I didn't agree with that quote from the movie.

[xBaron Dants]

About not buying Turkish products....it annoys me when people say "oo, what an idiot! He doesn't buy turkish products because of the genocide that happened 90 years ago! As if that has anything to do with it".

Now, for all those who say that, I will just point out that to this very day, Turkey has imposed an economic embargo on Armenia. Why we should support that country's economy is beyond me.

[xBaron Dants]

Oh, and Armenia's "allegations of genocide" are one of the reasons for that blockade...

[fIReBuRntInHeLL]

I second to Baron's comment.

[Anonymouse]

I do not want to work with any Turkey or anyone from this thread, that's for sure.

[nairi]

About not buying Turkish products....it annoys me when people say "oo, what an idiot! He doesn't buy turkish products because of the genocide that happened 90 years ago! As if that has anything to do with it".

Now, for all those who say that, I will just point out that to this very day, Turkey has imposed an economic embargo on Armenia. Why we should support that country's economy is beyond me.

It's funny you say that since many Armenians from Armenia travel daily to Turkey to buy products that they can't buy at home. Not to mention Armenians living in Turkey. I don't care. The embargo has nothing to do with Armenia's economic, political and social retardedness.

As for befriending a Turk: only one who has recognized the Armenian genocide etc. I can't live in a lie where I have to pretend we don't share a history, language, culture.

As for Armenian-hating Turks. I invite you to visit Holland, The Hague, Rotterdam or Amsterdam for a day. How many Turks have I met who walked away from me with disdain once they found out I was Ermeni? How many more treated me differently? And how many simply deny the genocide, even as they are contradicting themselves? It's ironical that on some Turkish forums even those Turks who recognize the Armenian genocide in private, question it in public..

[xBaron Dants]

It's funny you say that since many Armenians from Armenia travel daily to Turkey to buy products that they can't buy at home. Not to mention Armenians living in Turkey. I don't care. The embargo has nothing to do with Armenia's economic, political and social retardedness.

As for befriending a Turk: only one who has recognized the Armenian genocide etc. I can't live in a lie where I have to pretend we don't share a history, language, culture.

As for Armenian-hating Turks. I invite you to visit Holland, The Hague, Rotterdam or Amsterdam for a day. How many Turks have I met who walked away from me with disdain once they found out I was Ermeni? How many more treated me differently? And how many simply deny the genocide, even as they are contradicting themselves? It's ironical that on some Turkish forums even those Turks who recognize the Armenian genocide in private, question it in public..

I didn't mention anything about political or social problems being caused by Turkey. If you tell me that a blockade imposed by your neighbour closest to the European market will not affect your economy, I invite you to take any intro to economy course you can find. The fact that Armenians from Armenia still get products from Turkey is just proof that we'd be better off without an embargo. And our case in the diaspora is different. It's not any more affordable or convenient for us to buy turkish products.


Oh, and we don't share a language.

[nairi]

If the embargo is such a threat to Armenian economy, how come Armenia is doing better and better economically? Fair enough, any country is better off without an embargo, but at this stage it's an excuse for the Armenian government to be corrupt. As far as I can see.

You'd be surprised at how much of our language we share with Turkish and v.v.

[dstyle]

The only turks I've met have cussed me out, so I can't really say much of anything with them beign nice.
Economy wise of course the blockade has hurt Armenia, how can you argue against it, the only beneficial part has been the sophistication of certain industries that might not have been brought forth if not for the blockade. All in all boo Turkey anyway.

Dan your avatar is hillarious.

[Genuine_Stud]

The day Turkey accepts and recognizes the Genocide will be the day I can truly trust one and define them as human beings.

That's a little unfair. Actually, it's a lot unfair and I would argue that attitudes like that are what cause genocides in the first place.

Until then, I will always continue to hate Turks no matter who they are.

What a terrible world this would be if everyone had that attitude. Heck, I would have to hate, at the very least, all Frenchmen, Englishmen, Spaniards and Americans. Wait - does that mean I'd have to hate myself? All these old scored get tough to keep track of.

Now I know, that there are a few Turks who do recognize the genocide and such. But what difference are they making? Is that supposed to make me feel better?

Since when is it anyone's job other than your own to make you feel better?

I hope they burn in hell until the current Turkish government publicly accepts our genocide and they acknowlegde it in their own history books.

Damn. I wonder if Iraqis and Afghans and Palestinians and Japanese and Filipinos and Mexicans and Cubans feel the same way about you as an American. Pity if they do.

[ardenik]

Kemal Ata Turk had xxxish origins and he was one of the organizers of the genocide.
oh my God, u couldnt be wronger & it really scares me that some ppl think that's true :eek:

u should really do a little more research before accusing somebody of such a horrible crime. Kemal Ataturk was a GREAT man. he alone is the one who is responsible for pulling turkey out of its muslim-fanatic state. he completely reformed the country, scrapped the arabic alphabet & used latin letters for a new standard turkish alphabet. he threw religious fanatics out of power & made turkey into a democratic country. obviously, they are still generally barbarians & still have a long way to go as a country & as a people (they can start by recognizing the Genocide) but u have absolutely no right to accuse Ataturk of being responsible in ANY way for the Armenian Genocide.

Thats like saying it was Mesrob Mashtots' fault Armenians didnt have an alphabet until they did.

[loseyourname]

Ah crap. I'm sorry about that, Stud. I didn't mean to edit your post. I meant to click on "quote" and clicked on "edit" instead. There's no way to restore it, but at least I left most of it intact in the quotes. Again, I'm sorry.

[Genuine_Stud]

Ah crap. I'm sorry about that, Stud. I didn't mean to edit your post. I meant to click on "quote" and clicked on "edit" instead. There's no way to restore it, but at least I left most of it intact in the quotes. Again, I'm sorry.

:eek: The "one time" where the post is from my heart. :(

THE ONE TIME. :crying:

Grrrrrr. :evil:

:D

[Anonymouse]

oh my God, u couldnt be wronger & it really scares me that some ppl think that's true :eek:

u should really do a little more research before accusing somebody of such a horrible crime. Kemal Ataturk was a GREAT man. he alone is the one who is responsible for pulling turkey out of its muslim-fanatic state. he completely reformed the country, scrapped the arabic alphabet & used latin letters for a new standard turkish alphabet. he threw religious fanatics out of power & made turkey into a democratic country. obviously, they are still generally barbarians & still have a long way to go as a country & as a people (they can start by recognizing the Genocide) but u have absolutely no right to accuse Ataturk of being responsible in ANY way for the Armenian Genocide.

Thats like saying it was Mesrob Mashtots' fault Armenians didnt have an alphabet until they did.

No offense, but anyone who calls Kemal as a "great man", let alone ANY Statist, a "great man", needs to rethink their thought process. "Democracy" is the stupidest catch word. He made Turkey into a Nation-State. Nation-States are evil.

[HyeJinx1984]

I was ringing up this guy at work, and he paid by credit card. Well, when you run a credit card, the name, #, and expiration date always come up. So I noticed the name. I asked him what nationality he was. He goes "Turkish". My eyes bulged for a VERY quick, split second, and I regained composure and nodded politely (cuz....I'd like to keep my job). I could see he was waiting for me to converse with my own answer, but I just stood their, patiently waiting for the receipt to come up. So finally, he asks me "what are you?" I said "Armenian". This time, HIS eyes bulged, and he went "OHH! On behalf of the Turkish people, I apologize!" I was a bit startled by this response. I was expecting a discussion of the region, or no response at all, etc. The last thing I expected was an apology. We talked for a few minutes about life here and back home (I was born and raised in America, so this was mostly him relying stories), and then he was on his way. So...yeah, there you have it.

Today I was talking to my friend who was the one to get me on the set in the first place. I wasn't there today, but he was and said that the head Turk really thought I was a cool guy and would like to work with me again. Why do Turks have to like me? makes it harder to hate them. If I ever see him again I'm tempted to bring up the issue to see what he says... if he responds in a way that the guy in your story did, then I'll be cool with him... he really did seem like a nice enough guy.

[Anonymouse]

Imagine how much more funnier this thread would have been if it was about "Working with Turds", instead.

[HyeJinx1984]

"I tell ya, it ain't no joke workin' in them septic tanks, but I'll be damned if I ain't got some interestin' turd stories to tell..."

[ardenik]

No offense, but anyone who calls Kemal as a "great man", let alone ANY Statist, a "great man", needs to rethink their thought process. "Democracy" is the stupidest catch word. He made Turkey into a Nation-State. Nation-States are evil.
yea.. ok, touché... he was a politician after all. how "great" could he be?... loll but what i mean is that he took power away from religious fanaticism & dictatorship in favor of democracy..... i mean yea, its not like democracy necessarily means its like a walk in the park on a nice day, but i mean, meg khoskov, he took the power out of the ppl's hands who committed the Genocide.. there... isnt that a good thing? hehehe

[ardenik]

If the embargo is such a threat to Armenian economy, how come Armenia is doing better and better economically? Fair enough, any country is better off without an embargo, but at this stage it's an excuse for the Armenian government to be corrupt. As far as I can see.

You'd be surprised at how much of our language we share with Turkish and v.v.
its more than just language.. its entire chunks of culture!

[patlajan]

"I tell ya, it ain't no joke workin' in them septic tanks, but I'll be damned if I ain't got some interestin' turd stories to tell..."

Your boss be one sadistic a-hole. You're not supposed to go IN the tank itself. :)

[xBaron Dants]

he took the power out of the ppl's hands who committed the Genocide.. there... isnt that a good thing? hehehe

If you think the people responsible for the genocide were not recycled into the Turkish government, you would be strongly mistaken.

[Anonymouse]

I have a question, why was 10DarkOmens banned again?

[fIReBuRntInHeLL]

oh my God, u couldnt be wronger & it really scares me that some ppl think that's true :eek:

u should really do a little more research before accusing somebody of such a horrible crime. Kemal Ataturk was a GREAT man. he alone is the one who is responsible for pulling turkey out of its muslim-fanatic state. he completely reformed the country, scrapped the arabic alphabet & used latin letters for a new standard turkish alphabet. he threw religious fanatics out of power & made turkey into a democratic country. obviously, they are still generally barbarians & still have a long way to go as a country & as a people (they can start by recognizing the Genocide) but u have absolutely no right to accuse Ataturk of being responsible in ANY way for the Armenian Genocide.

Thats like saying it was Mesrob Mashtots' fault Armenians didnt have an alphabet until they did.


Well hellloooooooooooooooooooo, r u sleeping or what. Kemal was one of the organizers of the Genocide. He contributed for Turkey not for us. Jesus, what else am i gonna read that u love turks also?

[ardenik]

Well hellloooooooooooooooooooo, r u sleeping or what. Kemal was one of the organizers of the Genocide. He contributed for Turkey not for us. Jesus, what else am i gonna read that u love turks also?
no. ataturk became in charge of turkey after the fall of the gencturk party & ittihad ve terakke commitee. he reformed the country. he threw the radical religious views out the window, giving women more freedom to dress normally & participate as members of society, he changed the official alphabet from arabic letters to latin letters. he pushed turkey far forward in terms of national development in every field.

the 3 head honchos of the Young Turks were: Mustafa Talaat Pasha, Cemal Enver Pasha & the 3rd dude, i just remember it was something Cemal.. anyways... no Kemal Ataturk.

what else am i gonna read that u love turks also?
well i certainly dont hate them.
& u know what that is? that's freedom.. thats moral freedom. because when i meet turks & they turn out to be nice ppl, i dont break my head over it like u guys do, all confused... "why do i like this dude? i should want to kill him.." no u shouldnt... u were brainwashed since u were a kid to be programmed to hate turks, but the area in which our parents' generation's calculations fell short was that as much as they talked to u about these ugly disgusting turkish ogres, eventually we were gonna run into a few & maybe.. just maybe, if ur mind is capable of handling so much freedom.. then u would realize that this eternal & unconditional hatred for our turkish contemporaries is nothing more than a HUGE moral burden.

Now, u can either surrender urself body & soul to this demon called :evil:HATE:evil:, to whom u will remain a SLAVE all ur life.. or if u grow up & open ur eyes.. or meet enuf nice turkish ppl in ur life who might help u out in ur endeavours if u let them, then maybe u might realize that HATE is just a BIG word thrown around by small people

[firattuncbas]

Because, actually we dont anymore. We bash Israelis instead, lol.
I understand now why my parents felt this anger towards turks, it was just taken wrongly by us, as youre young and dont know whats going on in world-politics.now i have a better knowleadge, though i usually think that turks are very badly educated , and should get a grip of themselves and learn about their history, there are many racist turks out there(not to mention Azeris...)



their are good turks too, yes:) but that is not the point. I dont think its wrong for us to critisize turks, not after all they have dont to us, i understand if some armenians hate them...
the turk are not racist.only they very nationalistttt

[patlajan]

no. ataturk became in charge of turkey after the fall of the gencturk party & ittihad ve terakke commitee. he reformed the country. he threw the radical religious views out the window, giving women more freedom to dress normally & participate as members of society, he changed the official alphabet from arabic letters to latin letters. he pushed turkey far forward in terms of national development in every field.

This is just silly. Armenians along with Kurds and anybody else they didn't like were killed to make room for nationalism. A turkish state for turks and no one else. The principals are the same.
Ironicly most turks today don't like nationalism. That's like a subtle "I'm sorry" if you ask me.

[Anonymouse]

This is just silly. Armenians along with Kurds and anybody else they didn't like were killed to make room for nationalism. A turkish state for turks and no one else. The principals are the same.
Ironicly most turks today don't like nationalism. That's like a subtle "I'm sorry" if you ask me.

And don't forget Kurds participated just as badly against Armenians. In fact many of the peopled "riled up" by the Turks, whether the Ottomans or the Young Turds, were Kurds, and Circassians, and then Turkey would conveniently blame them as "They are third parties it was them that was behind the massacres, not the us".

[Tres Bien]

Today, 02:07 PM #48
firattuncbas
Registered User

What is your problem turk bibishim, why ru posting my messages over again?
do you want me to start hating turks again??

[loseyourname]

Relax, Tres. He was just trying to quote you and messed up the tags. I fixed it.

[Tres Bien]

ok there wasnt anything written by him first...so...anyway..yeah turks are nationalists and a bit racist too!!!!!

[ardenik]

ok there wasnt anything written by him first...so...anyway..yeah turks are nationalists and a bit racist too!!!!!
how can u generalize like that?
saying a whole nationality is racist makes no more sense than saying a whole country is bald.

[ardenik]

This is just silly. Armenians along with Kurds and anybody else they didn't like were killed to make room for nationalism. A turkish state for turks and no one else. The principals are the same.
Ironicly most turks today don't like nationalism. That's like a subtle "I'm sorry" if you ask me.
dude, how many times do i gotta say this.. ataturk had NOTHING to do with the gencturks. & he was not a leader who represented the ottomans. if anything, he became a leader in reaction to the ottamans. i challenge u to find one piece of reliable information which states that Kemal Ataturk ever did any harm to Armenians, Kurds, or anybody. thats a challenge. & until u can find this information, stop with ur unfounded accusations & fingerpointing.

[xBaron Dants]

Many high-level officials of the Young Turks were recycled into Ataturk's party.
You should read Taner Akçam's book.
I had a greak link for you, but the site's in reconstruction until July.

[ardenik]

Many high-level officials of the Young Turks were recycled into Ataturk's party.
You should read Taner Akçam's book.
I had a greak link for you, but the site's in reconstruction until July.
i believe u dantso, but the question remains: did Ataturk harm any Armenians? & it remains still unanswered..

[dusken]

One has to think that the reason why contemporary Turks deny the genocide is because of the administrations following the Young Turks.

[xBaron Dants]

i believe u dantso, but the question remains: did Ataturk harm any Armenians? & it remains still unanswered..

Ataturk's position towards Armenians remains enigmatic. While he condemned the genocide, and condemned those that organized it, there is no question that the genocidal campaign still continued when he was in power.

My opinion would be that his words of condemnation were just eye-candy for the European powers, with whom Ataturk wanted to be buddies with. If Ataturk were truly serious in his condemnations and actions, we wouldn't be in this situation today.

[dstyle]

He started the state denial, thats enough. Also his reaction to the Greeks, and the way he was still hunting down Armenians when he took over.hmm.

[Tres Bien]

NO, im not hating anyone personally but im hating who ever denies that turkish crimes against the armenians...and azeris who do this as well.

[fIReBuRntInHeLL]

no. ataturk became in charge of turkey after the fall of the gencturk party & ittihad ve terakke commitee. he reformed the country. he threw the radical religious views out the window, giving women more freedom to dress normally & participate as members of society, he changed the official alphabet from arabic letters to latin letters. he pushed turkey far forward in terms of national development in every field.

the 3 head honchos of the Young Turks were: Mustafa Talaat Pasha, Cemal Enver Pasha & the 3rd dude, i just remember it was something Cemal.. anyways... no Kemal Ataturk.


well i certainly dont hate them.
& u know what that is? that's freedom.. thats moral freedom. because when i meet turks & they turn out to be nice ppl, i dont break my head over it like u guys do, all confused... "why do i like this dude? i should want to kill him.." no u shouldnt... u were brainwashed since u were a kid to be programmed to hate turks, but the area in which our parents' generation's calculations fell short was that as much as they talked to u about these ugly disgusting turkish ogres, eventually we were gonna run into a few & maybe.. just maybe, if ur mind is capable of handling so much freedom.. then u would realize that this eternal & unconditional hatred for our turkish contemporaries is nothing more than a HUGE moral burden.

Now, u can either surrender urself body & soul to this demon called :evil:HATE:evil:, to whom u will remain a SLAVE all ur life.. or if u grow up & open ur eyes.. or meet enuf nice turkish ppl in ur life who might help u out in ur endeavours if u let them, then maybe u might realize that HATE is just a BIG word thrown around by small people

Nothing can change whatever was done, I dont respect a nation who denies its past and the truth. I dont care if there are plenty of good turks!!! Still they dont accept the fact that their ancestors killed armenians. And again about At a Turk I must remind u that he contributed for turks, not for us, and I will hate them deep inside my heart until they apologize of what they did. Because if one armenian forgets his/her past than he/she is no longer armenian. the past makes us tomorrow's persons. I can have turk friends but it's not gonna be pure friendship b/c both parts will have the hate against each other. Im not the brainwashed one u are, b/c by being friends with the ones who once killed ur kind that would be "anvoghnasharutiun".
Im not blind from hate, just to clear it up for u, but i am angry. Genocide is one of the main reasons that broke our nation apart and until today we struggle to survive in other parts of the world.

[fIReBuRntInHeLL]

Ardenik

my conclusion for u is
ardenik loves turks=>ardenik is traitor
and dont deny it, u try to convince that is good loving turks, and im gonna scream ARE U OUT OF YOUR MIND??????? whats ur point i dont get it. To forget everything and start new begining? are u John Lennon or something? Once they sign that they are at least SORRY then UU should think of having turk friends otherwise why bother staying armenian! u can change ur name to Jonathan Roberts and have multinational friends. PLus u wont have problems with racist and nationalist armenians who hate turks.

[ardenik]

Ardenik

my conclusion for u is
ardenik loves turks=>ardenik is traitor
and dont deny it, u try to convince that is good loving turks, and im gonna scream ARE U OUT OF YOUR MIND??????? whats ur point i dont get it. To forget everything and start new begining? are u John Lennon or something? Once they sign that they are at least SORRY then UU should think of having turk friends otherwise why bother staying armenian! u can change ur name to Jonathan Roberts and have multinational friends. PLus u wont have problems with racist and nationalist armenians who hate turks.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thats hilarious.... ok so, let me get this straight.. because i fail to HATE perfectly innocent ppl (contemporary turks, who dont know anything about the genocide who just want to live a normal life & interact with normal ppl) this makes me a traitor.... thats so absurd, its just hilarious.. :laugh: haha

u can scream all u want, but between the two of us, who do u think is gonna be the one who looks like they're out of their mind??

why bother staying armenian yegher...... :rolleyes: i make hundreds of armenians sing & dance to armenian songs almost every week. what was the last positive thing YOU did to preserve Armenian culture in the diaspora? can u answer me that?

im not John Lennon, but i think it wouldnt hurt if we all had a little bit more of John Lennon in each of us. im not saying to forget anything. for ur information, ive supported the cause of getting the genocide recognized at least as much as u have. this doesnt keep me from meeting common turks & respecting them as human beings. because they have nothing to do with neither the genocide, nor its recognition.

i dont have to change my name to jonathan roberts in order to have multinational friends, i have multinational friends already & they respect me as an armenian. & i can safely say that i have given these multinational friends & acquaintances of mine a good image of what it means to be armenian. & id MUCH rather make friends with an innocent turk than a racist armenian. & u can quote me on that ANYTIME...

Genocide is one of the main reasons that broke our nation apart
while this is true, an even more important cause of our nation being broken apart is that armenians have been sabotaging each other throughout the entire 20th century. Tashnak, Hnchak, Ramgavar..... fuuck em all. kouner em ammenoun al.. u cant imagine how much more progress our people would have made if these dumbasses worked TOGETHER for once, instead of these stupid tashnak sh!ts having petitions signed to oppose the opening of a new Echmiyadznagan Armenian church. (this happened a couple of years ago in my neighborhood) now who's the traitor?? hmmm???

[Anonymouse]

while this is true, an even more important cause of our nation being broken apart is that armenians have been sabotaging each other throughout the entire 20th century. Tashnak, Hnchak, Ramgavar..... fuuck em all. kouner em ammenoun al.. u cant imagine how much more progress our people would have made if these dumbasses worked TOGETHER for once, instead of these stupid tashnak sh!ts having petitions signed to oppose the opening of a new Echmiyadznagan Armenian church. (this happened a couple of years ago in my neighborhood) now who's the traitor?? hmmm???

Sadly, we all know this and the "lack of unity" babble that spews constantly is because of this, and sadly, once again, nothing changes.

[dstyle]

So its ok too spew hate against your own, but not those that have caused so much damage too your people, good good ardenik, I always had it the other way, thanks forthe light.

[ardenik]

Sadly, we all know this and the "lack of unity" babble that spews constantly is because of this, and sadly, once again, nothing changes.
sadly, u are right.
an army cant go to war if its divisions are sabotaging each other's progress because they would be crushed. & thats what has been happening with armenians in the past 100 years. we will not win this fight for recognition unless we fight it together & that doesnt seem to be happening. while i appreciate the work that organizations such as tashnagtsoutioun have been carrying out for the recognition of the genocide & i realize the fact that its mostly thanks to them that we were able to get an official recognition here in canada, i still scorn them that they often regard other non-tashnagtsagan armenians as non-armenians & refuse to work together. & that is their biggest flaw & for precisely that reason, i think they have contributed more for the regression of armenian people and their cause than for its progress. of course they dont realize this because they're too fukcing full of themselves & of course i expect a panel of pro-tashnags on this forum to attack me & call me a traitor & a disgrace to Armenians......

funny..... i think the same thing about them......... :wave:

[Anonymouse]

I think Armenians need to stop being Armenians for a week, to cool off.

[ardenik]

So its ok too spew hate against your own, but not those that have caused so much damage too your people, good good ardenik, I always had it the other way, thanks forthe light.
i dont hate. i scorn.

& in case u dont realize, the goosagtsagan division among armenians has cause much more damage to our people since the genocide (not including the genocide) than common turks have in north america & around the world who r just here to make a comfortable living for themselves & their families. they dont hate armenians & they hardly need to put up a fight against us because we're too busy bashing each other anyway. remember that joke about not having to worry about the 2 armenians trying to climb out of the hole theyre in because soon as either of them tries to escape, the other one pulls him back in. its sad, my friend.. VERY sad... but its SO true.... :crying:

[ardenik]

u guys should really take a look at this thread.

http://forum.armenianclub.com/showthread.php?t=3027

im not wise enough or skillful & clever enough with words to make an impression on u guys that will affect the mentality u have been living by for 20 or more years... & thats not my purpose either. but this guy ara baliozian seems to have a much better chance at it than i do... i would recommend that u read his entries in this thread.

[dstyle]

Not worth my time at this moment.

[dstyle]

Ok forget it, I like the fact that your implying certain peoples mindsets need too be altered, because I agree they do, but not the ones you think obviously. A good sized group of our people have been born with a scorn(did I use the word correctly) of one organization, be it the other two organizations and there followers, or those born in communism. Its something we have too deal with I agree but how can you change those that have been brainwashed from childhood, and make them realize it isn't about what they think, that it is about helping the people. But alas, there are those that hide being patriots of the people lol, or call others traitors when they themselves are the ones dwelling in the wrong. Oh well, here comes another forum fight.

[ardenik]

Oh well, here comes another forum fight.
looll u see it coming too eh? hehehe
u wanna get outta here & go grab a beer before things get ugly? hahaha :D

[dstyle]

I'd rather not fight because it adds to the already proven stigma lollllll. I'd rather take some shots of vodka if thats cool.

[Tres Bien]

"I think Armenians need to stop being Armenians for a week, to cool off."

agreed:) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ardenik]

I'd rather not fight because it adds to the already proven stigma lollllll. I'd rather take some shots of vodka if thats cool.
vodka eh.... *gag*
ok, u can take shots of that rubbing alcohol... ill stick with beer. :p

[patlajan]

So what would we be for the week? Australians are pretty cool mate.

[Anonymouse]

I've always wanted to be Japanese. Then it's settled, I'll squint my eyes for a week and bow to everyone.

[ardenik]

I've always wanted to be Japanese. Then it's settled, I'll squint my eyes for a week and bow to everyone.
LOLL
ahhh mousy.. what a character...... :D

[fIReBuRntInHeLL]

I just cant deal with u. ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS : LONG LIVE DASHNAKTUTIUN.
Weather u like or not ARF rules and is the best armenian organization who does something to make the HAY DAT true.

I have no further reasons to make u understand that u r a totally brainwashed
kid who grew up under the melting pot system. I hope u have great time with ur turk friends.

Cheers

P.S. dont respond me back, im done with this thread.
BYE

[xBaron Dants]

I just cant deal with u. ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS : LONG LIVE DASHNAKTUTIUN.
Weather u like or not ARF rules and is the best armenian organization who does something to make the HAY DAT true.

I have no further reasons to make u understand that u r a totally brainwashed
kid who grew up under the melting pot system. I hope u have great time with ur turk friends.

Cheers

P.S. dont respond me back, im done with this thread.
BYE

Sorry to say, but you sound a lot more brainwashed.

[fIReBuRntInHeLL]

Sorry to say, but you sould a lot more brainwashed.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[xBaron Dants]

I just cant deal with u. ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS : LONG LIVE DASHNAKTUTIUN.
Weather u like or not ARF rules and is the best armenian organization who does something to make the HAY DAT true.


It is interesting to see how we have settled to celebrating mediocrity. You can be member of any organization that you wish, but not a single Armenian, in my opinion, has the right to "celebrate" whatever we have accomplished politically be it before, during or after 1915. Our ridiculous situation today is a proof of it.

Anybody who considers anything we have achieved so far as "good", or "respectable" in the name of patriotism and nationalism, is a lot less patriotic, as he is too afraid to realize that whatever's been done so far is just not working.

[fIReBuRntInHeLL]

Blame the politicians.
But still ARF is the one who is doing something among spiourkahayutiun. My acne is growing b/c I am sick and tired of excusing ARF from my point of view. Who cares, I believe in it and I think it does a work. Everything depends on your beliefs, thank God we have the ability to believe what we want to believe, no one can convince me the opposite and don't bring further reasons to prove me wrong. Even in this little forum 20 hayer chen karoganum lezu ktnel irar het, sad so so sad. :(

Peace, el inch karam vor inch asem :rolleyes:

[Anonymouse]

Even in this little forum 20 hayer chen karoganum lezu ktnel irar het, sad so so sad. :(

Peace, el inch karam vor inch asem :rolleyes:

That my dear, is sadly the whole history of the Armenian peoples. :(

[fIReBuRntInHeLL]

That my dear, is sadly the whole history of the Armenian peoples. :(

:crying: :crying: :crying: :crying: :crying: :crying: :crying: :crying:

[dstyle]

Fire, a little emotional are we today?

[loseyourname]

Everything depends on your beliefs, thank God we have the ability to believe what we want to believe, no one can convince me the opposite and don't bring further reasons to prove me wrong.

Sounds like my mom's parents when they just refused to believe that Nixon could be responsible for Watergate.

[ardenik]

Blame the politicians.
But still ARF is the one who is doing something...
wow thats funny...
ARF IS political.. we ARE blaming politicians & that includes ARF because they are the most political of political parties! their entire belief system is based on indoctrination & terrorism & their most prided events in history are terrorist acts! (the lisbon 5?? terrorists... not heroes, as far as im concerned. & yet theres gold plaques with their engraved faces on a wall in every ARF-affiliated community center ive stepped foot in. they are no better than al-quaeda & deserve to burn in hell along with all of them)


anyways... im not gonna convince u of anything, because i cant undo 20-plus years of conditioning u have been subjected to in an ARF environment. especially considering thats what their specialty is & i cant dream of beating them at their own game. & besides, its not my responsability anyway.

i just cant believe in an organization which shamelessly takes advantage of a senile, ill old man with alzheimer's disease & dupes him into donating all his family's savings to the "church" just before he dies & then when his family, who are now left in ruins, go back to the "church" & ask for their money back (im talking about close to 100 thousand dollars) the lying prick with a priest collar around his neck told them straight up that the money was already spent & they couldnt have ANY of it back. it was the "church's" money now.... how can u spend 100 000 dollars in a week?? answer: u give most of it to ur superiors & put the rest in ur pocket & claim its been spent. how can u steal 100 000 dollars from a dying old man & his family?? answer: u gotta be a criminal. how can u steal 100 000 dollars from a dying old man & his family & get away with it?? answer: u gotta be a criminal with a priest collar....

[ardenik]

i have a lot of tashnagtsagan friends & i love them. some of my closest friends are from tashnag families & they are like my brothers. i get along with them because i just dont get into goosagtsagan discussions with them & they respect that. except when somebody they know gets screwed by the agoump (happens all the time) then we bash the system a little while & its back to normal the next day :D lol

[Anonymouse]

i just cant believe in an organization which shamelessly takes advantage of a senile, ill old man with alzheimer's disease & dupes him into donating all his family's savings to the "church" just before he dies & then when his family, who are now left in ruins, go back to the "church" & ask for their money back (im talking about close to 100 thousand dollars) the lying prick with a priest collar around his neck told them straight up that the money was already spent & they couldnt have ANY of it back. it was the "church's" money now.... how can u spend 100 000 dollars in a week?? answer: u give most of it to ur superiors & put the rest in ur pocket & claim its been spent. how can u steal 100 000 dollars from a dying old man & his family?? answer: u gotta be a criminal. how can u steal 100 000 dollars from a dying old man & his family & get away with it?? answer: u gotta be a criminal with a priest collar....

The only problem I have with your position here, is something I have noticed in many people, including Crimson Glow in the Scientology thread.

You just brought up an example of how someone voluntarily donates and gives money to something they believe in, such as an organization, or a Church. But this to you folks translates as something negative. You will all too often state "They want to make money off of those dupes". Well, pray tell, who doesn't? Critics of religion and Church who say "They want to rip you off and make money", forget that it is voluntary and nothing is forced. You somehow forget that the biggest criminal of "making money" are governments. Every government extracts its money via coercion ( i.e. taxation ). I don't see you folks parading against that. That's legitimate because it is coercive, but when someone voluntarily does it it is "negative". What's this hang up with people associating "making money" as being negative. Making money is not a bad thing. Money is part of this world and it can both serve good and serve evil. This is similar to people who blame guns for murders, not realizing that guns can do both good and bad things, it is mans nature that is dual. A knife can kill a person, but it can also be used to cut a salad.

[ardenik]

guns cannot do good things. except to threaten another guy with a gun who is about to shoot u.. so bottom line, guns cannot do good things.

i understand what ure saying, anon, & i agree. i have no problems with volutary donations. but u must realize the gravity of this particular situation. the man was very old, senile, had a serious case of alzheimer's & was really not at all in control of himself. i mean, the guy died less than a week after the donation. a donation which he did not make by his own decision, but was convinced to do so by the master champions of mind-control, who saw the opportunity as easy as taking candy from a baby.. even easier, considering babies will cry after u take their candy & they dont usually DIE within the following week... u see what im saying?

not to mention the fact that this man was not a millionnaire to be able to afford donating 100 000 dollars to any organization. he gave them EVERYTHING & his family was left with NOTHING.. they lost everything they owned... they were not millionnaires. they were regular people.

[Anonymouse]

guns cannot do good things. except to threaten another guy with a gun who is about to shoot u.. so bottom line, guns cannot do good things.

Ever heard of self-defense? It is the right of every person to defend themselves. If someone is coming to kill me or is stealing and damaging my property, that gun will save me, thus doing exactly what you claimed it could not do. To deny this is to deny the axiom that man has a dual nature. Such statements usually come from people who say "People don't kill people, Guns kill people". The fallacy of such logic is only laffable.

i understand what ure saying, anon, & i agree. i have no problems with volutary donations. but u must realize the gravity of this particular situation. the man was very old, senile, had a serious case of alzheimer's & was really not at all in control of himself. i mean, the guy died less than a week after the donation. a donation which he did not make by his own decision, but was convinced to do so by the master champions of mind-control, who saw the opportunity as easy as taking candy from a baby.. even easier, considering babies will cry after u take their candy & they dont usually DIE within the following week... u see what im saying?

While I'm not a tashnag nor an AYF, I am hard pressed to believe that they forced this man to give up his money. Once again, you are arguing a straw man. You are making the case again, although more subtly, that somehow he was coerced out of his money, when it was voluntary. What about the man before he had Alzheimer's? He was most likely still involved in it and still believed in it. It does not matter for what you think his reasons are but that man was initially intruiged and interested in that organization for him to be there, to begin with, unless someone forced him at gun point to attend meetings, gatherings and be involved, I cannot accept your reasoning.

not to mention the fact that this man was not a millionnaire to be able to afford donating 100 000 dollars to any organization. he gave them EVERYTHING & his family was left with NOTHING.. they lost everything they owned... they were not millionnaires. they were regular people.

Who cares if he was not a millionaire? It was his money and it was his involvement with that organization. It shouldn't concern you or anyone else what voluntary actions do. Did they lose everything? Did they end up living on the street? Please, unless you can verify this, I do not want to read exaggerated statements. The bottom line is, when people do voluntary business, it is condemned as somehow "being evil", when you have not proven how a voluntary action is coercive. The same applies to socialists who continually bash corporations such as Wal-Mart because somehow people voluntarily choose to do business there, it is somehow "sucking their money".

[xBaron Dants]

Blame the politicians.
But still ARF is the one who is doing something among spiourkahayutiun. My acne is growing b/c I am sick and tired of excusing ARF from my point of view. Who cares, I believe in it and I think it does a work. Everything depends on your beliefs, thank God we have the ability to believe what we want to believe, no one can convince me the opposite and don't bring further reasons to prove me wrong. Even in this little forum 20 hayer chen karoganum lezu ktnel irar het, sad so so sad. :(

Peace, el inch karam vor inch asem :rolleyes:

This reminds me of the ostrich who sticks its head in the ground when it's afraid.

We can all believe in a lot of things. I can believe that Moosh, Gars, Ardahan and Ararad are all part of Armenia as we speak. Doesn't make it true.

As ardenik said, the ARF is a goosagtsootyoon. Nothing more, nothing less. And the fact remains that our political leadership has failed in pretty much everything it has tried. Even in the spurkhayootyoon, its failure is now very very obvious. And what's even worse is that each organization is sure that, in their incompetence, it is more competent than all the other ones.

In the end, all Armenians know that something is going wrong, yet a large part will make no association between our situation today, and our political, religious and social leadership, mainly because it wants to have some sort of victory to celebrate, despite the obvious reality that there really isn't much that has been done (positively)...

[Anonymouse]

In the end, all Armenians know that something is going wrong, yet a large part will make no association between our situation today, and our political, religious and social leadership, mainly because it wants to have some sort of victory to celebrate, despite the obvious reality that there really isn't much that has been done (positively)...

Agreed .

[dstyle]

You guys are kidding right? Not much has been done, oh please, that's a very pessimistic view of occurences in the last 90 years. I agree the first 50 after the genocide were spent just surviving, but since then there has been so much our people have been through, I agree most organizations haven't done anything, or they've sold themselves to the highest bidder but to put the ARF in that category is ridiculous. Any chance you get ha baron lol. I'm not anti buttt, oh God help me.

About Lisbon, you can believe what you want to arden, can't fault you for that, but I don't agree obviously. Terrorism is a word made up by those in power, basically a certain people can massacre, kill but its ok because they are a power, but when the weaker people attack with the only means they have, thats terrorism lol yaaaa right. Man this is too many arguments for a saturday morning. good bye.

[Anonymouse]

Indeed, the definition of terrorism is ambiguous. Even a State can be defined as terrorists.

With that said, no, not much has been done. Armenian leadership has been nothing but a complete failure.

[ardenik]

About Lisbon, you can believe what you want to arden, can't fault you for that, but I don't agree obviously. Terrorism is a word made up by those in power, basically a certain people can massacre, kill but its ok because they are a power, but when the weaker people attack with the only means they have, thats terrorism lol yaaaa right. Man this is too many arguments for a saturday morning. good bye.
I'm not saying when a powerful organization/government makes an attempt at a race's existence that thats more acceptable than terrorism.. in fact its much worse because it affects many many more ppl.

what the ottomans did was genocide.. thats like terrorism on steroids.. it is indeed infinitely worse than what the lisbon 5 did, u cant compare.. however, im not one to believe that actions such as what the lisbon 5 did is a solution to any problem & on the contrary, it just makes things worse. so i see the lisbon 5 as terrorists. their means is an anti-solution.. the total OPPOSITE of what a solution is... in general, armenia is not exactly at the top of the world's list for producing terrorists & im really happy about that. because that means that u can travel to any country & being armenian is not gonna be an excuse for them to strip-search u. i like that idea. & what the lisbon 5 did is like taking a step (or a leap, rather) in the name of all armenians in the world in the direction of becoming a race which would arouse suspicion about terrorism. & i dont like that. & tahts why i hope they burn in hell.

[ardenik]

Ever heard of self-defense? It is the right of every person to defend themselves. If someone is coming to kill me or is stealing and damaging my property, that gun will save me, thus doing exactly what you claimed it could not do. To deny this is to deny the axiom that man has a dual nature. Such statements usually come from people who say "People don't kill people, Guns kill people". The fallacy of such logic is only laffable.



While I'm not a tashnag nor an AYF, I am hard pressed to believe that they forced this man to give up his money. Once again, you are arguing a straw man. You are making the case again, although more subtly, that somehow he was coerced out of his money, when it was voluntary. What about the man before he had Alzheimer's? He was most likely still involved in it and still believed in it. It does not matter for what you think his reasons are but that man was initially intruiged and interested in that organization for him to be there, to begin with, unless someone forced him at gun point to attend meetings, gatherings and be involved, I cannot accept your reasoning.



Who cares if he was not a millionaire? It was his money and it was his involvement with that organization. It shouldn't concern you or anyone else what voluntary actions do. Did they lose everything? Did they end up living on the street? Please, unless you can verify this, I do not want to read exaggerated statements. The bottom line is, when people do voluntary business, it is condemned as somehow "being evil", when you have not proven how a voluntary action is coercive. The same applies to socialists who continually bash corporations such as Wal-Mart because somehow people voluntarily choose to do business there, it is somehow "sucking their money".
anon, i guess i wouldnt expect u to believe all this just because im telling u. uve never met me & so im not exactly a very reliable source to u. if u ask me to prove something, i cant do that. its just something that happened to somebody i know, a family who are close to my family, & its one of the reasons why i dont trust these goosagtsoutiouns for anything, including ARF. im not here to convince u of anything, but if u ask me why i feel this way, that story is one of my reasons. i would not expect u to believe me simply because i told u. but i know its true.

[dstyle]

I would say I hope you join them, but I personally doubt they'd be in hell, so I'd rather you not.

[ardenik]

I would say I hope you join them, but I personally doubt they'd be in hell, so I'd rather you not.
loolll ure a straight-up kinda guy eh? hehehe i like that :p
ok, im gonna lay off the lisbon 5. ive already expressed that i disagree with their actions, ill just leave it at that :)

[xBaron Dants]

You guys are kidding right? Not much has been done, oh please, that's a very pessimistic view of occurences in the last 90 years. I agree the first 50 after the genocide were spent just surviving, but since then there has been so much our people have been through, I agree most organizations haven't done anything, or they've sold themselves to the highest bidder but to put the ARF in that category is ridiculous. Any chance you get ha baron lol. I'm not anti buttt, oh God help me.


You should've figured me out by now. I'm not an anti-tashnag. I'm an anti-everything.

The fact remains: your Armenian is probably weaker than your parents' Armenian, and your children's Armenian will probably be weaker than yours. The schools and their Armenian curriculums do not get any attention, while countless meetings that last many many hours each are spent discussing the politics of church. The population in Armenia now is about half the population it was thirty years ago. Besides the recognition of France, the issue of Genocide recognition has been limited to consolation prizes like Uruguay and the Canadian House of Commons. Sure we are no longer spending our time worrying about survival, but it is precisely BECAUSE we no longer strive for survival that we most risk disappearance, or assimilation. (Nshan Beshigtashlian has a nice quote about that, which escapes me now).

As you can see, we have no time to hate. But when through all of these problems, we still cannot accept criticism of the way things are being done, I cannot help but question one's true intentions and priorities.

[xBaron Dants]

And I must add that despite all of this, I am still an optimist. That shouldn't bar us from being realists also, and from putting "madernis verkin vra". Sure it'll sting, but we'll get over it, and be much healthier.

[fIReBuRntInHeLL]

And I must add that despite all of this, I am still an optimist. That shouldn't bar us from being realists also, and from putting "madernis verkin vra". Sure it'll sting, but we'll get over it, and be much healthier.


Astvats ta. :(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[xBaron Dants]

Astvats ta. :(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vor charnenk, chtar. ;)