Etymology of Armenian First Names [Archive]

Lucin

07-18-2007, 03:16 AM

First of all, we probably both know that all sources would be credible only to a certain degree; so the question is "How credible a bit of data or source is?" We can only base it on common sense and some rules - or a hierarchy of rules - such as:

Rule 1: Any data or source that is not public domain - known book, Web site etc. - is less credible. In general, it should be verifiable

Rule 2: We can only take into consideration "reliable" sources - i.e. that cannot be altered by just anybody and are known sites/sources.

I agree. But his given information turns out to be true. :)

As for me, I have spent some time compiling a list of sites that include a list of Armenian First Names; the list (of sites) below includes the ones that seemed the most comprehensive and "reliable" - i.e. can't be tempered with and/or was not created yesterday. The most comprehensive and informative - because it includes the most detailed explanation and/or "etymology??" - seems to be http://armenian.name/

Also, I have found that the only??? - to be checked - site that includes "Siamanto" as a First Name - i.e. http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.ph...ian_Male_Names - can be altered by anyone. Also, it says: "Raffi - not used by Armenians until a widely popular author chose it as his pen name."
A coincidence??? :)

Obviously, the sites are constantly updating their list, so they might include Siamanto as well?? Also, surprisingly, there are many famous and common Armenian names, which are not included in these sites. Weird…

Here is the list:
http://armenian.name/index.php?a=list&d=1&t=dict&w1=R
http://www.hyeetch.nareg.com.au/armenians/names_p1.html
http://feefhs.org/am/am-male.html
http://www.armenianteens.com/babynames/baby_boy_names.php
http://www.babynology.com/armenian_babynames.html
http://www.gaminggeeks.org/Resources/KateMonk/Former-Soviet-Union/Europe_Caucasus/Armenia.htm
http://www.welcometoarmenia.com/Names.htm#Boys
http://www.netarmenie.com/religion/annexes/prenom2.php

Thanks for the interesting sites; I'll spend some more time within.

1- According to http://www.netarmenie.com/religion/annexes/prenom2.php "Barouyr/Paruyr" is "the '1st' crowned king of Armenia?" In any case, an Armenian king.
Confirmed by http://kingsofarmenia.com/history_1.htm

LOL I don't about you, but I feel really ashamed. :o We did not know that???

Indeed, that's a shame, I didn't know either. Actually, my knowledge of Our History is very limited and maybe mediocre. (A while ago, I met this guy named 'Mleh' who told me that his name is an old Armenian name, later I found out Mleh was prince of the Armenian kingdom of Cilicia.) :o

2- "Raffi" is popular among Armenians - at least, some communities, I may be wrong, but I don't remember Western Armenians calling a Raffi "Raffig" - as it seems to be common among Armenians from Iran???

True, Raffik is common among Iranian-Armenians, as well as Vahik/Vahe, Levik/Levon…

However, calling Harout/Haroutig, Hagop/Hagopig, Levon/Levonig
Aram/Aramig etc. etc. is common.

Haroutik, Levonik, or Hagopik are not common here but Aramik is.
Also, the name Arutin which is quite common, could be another version of Harutiun, Harut.

The question is: Is "Raffig" the same as "Rafig/Rafik?" Even if not, are "Raffi" and "Rafig/Rafik" etymologically related?

In my opinion, Raffik is a diminutive of Raffi, if so, then they should be etymologically related.

Siamanto

07-18-2007, 04:11 PM

I agree. But his given information turns out to be true. :)

I would call it an opinion; a reference to an Armenian "personality" - like Barouyr I - would be an information.
Also, we all express opinions that some turn out to be true; it was also my opinion. An opinion is not etymological data.

Obviously, the sites are constantly updating their list, so they might include Siamanto as well??

Yes, however, the fact that we can't find a single reliable site that includes "Siamanto" and reliable sites include both "Raffi" and "Barouyr" is a relevant piece of information.

By the way, today, I received Shirak's dictionary of Armenian First Names and LOL "Siamanto" is not included in the 100 pages long list. :)

Also, surprisingly, there are many famous and common Armenian names, which are not included in these sites. Weird…

What are the "many famous and common Armenian names, which are not included in" http://armenian.name? Thanks.

Thanks for the interesting sites; I'll spend some more time within.

You're welcome. http://armenian.name would be my first choice. Maybe even of higher quality than Narek's dictionary???

Indeed, that's a shame, I didn't know either. Actually, my knowledge of Our History is very limited and maybe mediocre. (A while ago, I met this guy named 'Mleh' who told me that his name is an old Armenian name, later I found out Mleh was prince of the Armenian kingdom of Cilicia.) :o

If you think that your case is unique than you are, unfortunately, mistaken; the lack of knowledge - in the Diaspora - of our History, Literature, Philosophy etc. is obvious. I may be wrong, but I think that Armenians form Iran fair better than the rest - I am not including in the "Diaspora" those who have migrated from Soviet or Current Armenia because they've been away for only a short while.

Haroutik, Levonik, or Hagopik are not common here but Aramik is.

Really surprised. Thanks for the information.

Also, the name Arutin which is quite common, could be another version of Harutiun, Harut.

There's also "Artin." Yes, they all degenerated forms of "Haroutioun." That's probably why it's common to consider "Arthur" as a correspondent of "Haroutioun."

In my opinion, Raffik is a diminutive of Raffi, if so, then they should be etymologically related.
Yes, "Raffik" is probably the diminutive of "Raffi," but the question was: "Is 'Raffik' the same as 'Rafik'?"
In other words, "Is 'Rafik' - not 'Raffik' - a diminutive of 'Raffi'?" One would be inclined to think so but, apparently, not so obvious.
I raised the question because of the following:

page 1 of 1
1. RAFAEL(Rapael) - From Hebrew name Rafael (rfa "cure" and el "god" which appeared under the impression of religious literature in VII c. The European form of this name (Rafael) is more common. The short form is Rap fro… 0.3 KB
2. RAFFI - From Arabian name Rafi "proud", "outstanding". It was the nickname of great Arm novelist.
3. RAFIK - Is the diminutive form of the name Rafael that is used independently. It appeared when the name Rapaelyan gave place to Rafael.

(From http://armenian.name/index.php?a=list&d=1&t=dict&w1=R)

As one can tell, "Rafael/Rapael" and "Raffi" seem to have different origins????

However, Shirak's dictionary of Armenian First Names says:

Rafael - healed by god (Hebrew)
Raffi - 1. exalter 2. Flash of lighting 3. glorious man (Arabic) Also: Rafi
Rafig - diminutive of Raffi or Rafael

A bit confusing because Rafael and Raffi are presented as having different origins???

I would also add
1- "Rapig" - likely the diminutive of "Rapael???" - also existed.
2- I don't remember seeing "Raffig/Raffik" in any of the lists, only "Rafig/Rafik/Rapig/Rafik" - which makes it even more confusing???

Siamanto

07-18-2007, 08:57 PM

http://armenian.name would be my first choice. Maybe even of higher quality than Narek's dictionary???

I meant "Shirak's dictionary." I apologize for the confusion.

Lucin

07-19-2007, 12:45 PM

Yes, however, the fact that we can't find a single reliable site that includes "Siamanto" and reliable sites include both "Raffi" and "Barouyr" is a relevant piece of information.

LOL, I will send them an e-mail and ask to add Siamanto to their "males' first names" list. :)

What are the "many famous and common Armenian names, which are not included in" http://armenian.name? Thanks.

Names that I have in mind right now, such as Arbi/ Arin/ Ari/ Artin/ Arabo/ Artuyt/ Aren/ Dvin/ Sipan/ Sevada/ Sarmen/ Miro/ Njdeh/ Seroj/ Sako/ Sebouh/ Tsaghkush (Ծաղկուշ)... were not included.

You're welcome. http://armenian.name would be my first choice. Maybe even of higher quality than Narek's dictionary???

I must agree, this has been by far the most informative site.

Yes, "Raffik" is probably the diminutive of "Raffi," but the question was: "Is 'Raffik' the same as 'Rafik'?"
In other words, "Is 'Rafik' - not 'Raffik' - a diminutive of 'Raffi'?" One would be inclined to think so but, apparently, not so obvious.
I raised the question because of the following:

page 1 of 1
1. RAFAEL(Rapael) - From Hebrew name Rafael (rfa "cure" and el "god" which appeared under the impression of religious literature in VII c. The European form of this name (Rafael) is more common. The short form is Rap fro… 0.3 KB
2. RAFFI -From Arabian name Rafi "proud", "outstanding". It was the nickname of great Arm novelist.
3. RAFIK - Is the diminutive form of the name Rafael that is used independently. It appeared when the name Rapaelyan gave place to Rafael.

(From http://armenian.name/index.php?a=list&d=1&t=dict&w1=R)

As one can tell, "Rafael/Rapael" and "Raffi" seem to have different origins????

However, Shirak's dictionary of Armenian First Names says:

A bit confusing because Rafael and Raffi are presented as having different origins???

I would also add
1- "Rapig" - likely the diminutive of "Rapael???" - also existed.
2- I don't remember seeing "Raffig/Raffik" in any of the lists, only "Rafig/Rafik/Rapig/Rafik" - which makes it even more confusing???

Why do we assume that there exists Raffik as well as Rafik?? Let me just make a clarification:
I believe, there only exists Rafik- not Raffik- and Rafik cannot be the diminutive of Raffi for two reasons:

1. Rafik has one 'f' unlike Raffi, which has two.

2. More importantly, as you know, the letter R is pronounced in two different ways in Armenian, in reality two different letters- Ռ and Ր- as it is said Րաֆֆի but Ռաֆիկ.

I think this pretty much explains why the site tends to relate, etymologically, Rafik (Ռաֆիկ) to Rafael (Ռաֆաէլ) rather than to Raffi (Րաֆֆի) and rightfully, does not include Raffik at all as a name.

On these lists of Armenian names, I noticed some ridiculous first names such as Rashid, Bakhchangyul, Abbas, Dadash, Ghaplan, Hajibab, Jahan, Jalal, Jamal, Javad, Aghgyul etc., I don't know if they are still being used or not but these names (of whatever non-Armenian origin) should be wiped out of Armenian consciousness, for some clear reason.

Ps: I also wanted to make a small list of some common Armenian names of Persian origin but it seems unnecessary since some sites provide such information.

Siamanto

07-20-2007, 05:11 PM

LOL, I will send them an e-mail and ask to add Siamanto to their "males' first names" list. :)

Names that I have in mind right now, such as Arbi/ Arin/ Ari/ Artin/ Arabo/ Artuyt/ Aren/ Dvin/ Sipan/ Sevada/ Sarmen/ Miro/ Njdeh/ Seroj/ Sako/ Sebouh/ Tsaghkush (Ծաղկուշ)... were not included.

LOL So making "Siamanto" an Armenian First Name would be your contribution to the "preservation" of the Armenian Culture??? :)
Shouldn't you start with those that are "real" Armenian First Names in the list above?? Many of them exist in Shirak's dictionary, I will come back to it once I receive the other two dictionaries.

In any case, that raises the question: What should a dictionary of (Armenian) First Names include?
1- Of course, it should include the First Names
2- It should include the diminutives such Hagopig, Aramig etc.
3- It should include "derivatives" such as "Sako," "Artin" that are not First Names; usually, the official name is "Sarkis," "Harout/Haroutioun" etc.

However, should it include
4- Nicknames - i.e. pen names, war names etc. - that are not derived from First Names and are not widely enough used?
5- Should it include "creative" First Names even if they are/refer to Armenian locations or other symbols i.e. "Nakhitchevan," "Giligia?"
6- Foreign First Names that are - or were used - used in a particular community reflecting a foreign influence such as "Jean-Claude," "Vladimir" or "Arbi" - I'm not sure if "Arbi" falls in this category but all Arbis that I have met are born in Armenian families from Iran???
7- Isolated cases such as "Hasan" - in "Melik Hasan." (Is this a special case of 6?)
8- .....

Why do we assume that there exists Raffik as well as Rafik?? Let me just make a clarification:
I believe, there only exists Rafik- not Raffik- and Rafik cannot be the diminutive of Raffi for two reasons:

I don't know if you have assumed it when you said:
In my opinion, Raffik is a diminutive of Raffi, if so, then they should be etymologically related."
Personally, I simply raised a question when I said - and I think that it's too early to make any assumptions:
"The question is: Is "Raffig" the same as "Rafig/Rafik?" Even if not, are "Raffi" and "Rafig/Rafik" etymologically related?"

And when explaining why the question should be raised, I added - among other reasons:
"2- I don't remember seeing "Raffig/Raffik" in any of the lists, only "Rafig/Rafik/Rapig/Rafik" - which makes it even more confusing???"

I'm glad to see that you have "drilled down" into the details and we should be careful in drawing conclusions. We are progressing.
For now, we're simply brainstorming and, hopefully, it won't be fruitless.

1. Rafik has one 'f' unlike Raffi, which has two.

2. More importantly, as you know, the letter R is pronounced in two different ways in Armenian, in reality two different letters- Ռ and Ր- as it is said Րաֆֆի but Ռաֆիկ.

Similar lexical transformations are so common in natural languages and seldom have a semantic or other significance. I would be more careful.
1. Consider the Italian "Raffaele" and the Spanish "Rafael."
2. According to Shirak's dictionary it is "Ռաֆֆի" but the poet used 'Ր' instead of 'Ռ'

I think this pretty much explains why the site tends to relate, etymologically, Rafik (Ռաֆիկ) to Rafael (Ռաֆաէլ) rather than to Raffi (Րաֆֆի) and rightfully, does not include Raffik at all as a name.

Not so fast. Unfortunately, it does not explains it, for the following reasons:
1- Those who are named "Raffi" are often called "Raffig" or "Rafig" therefore they are somehow related.
2- As I have already mentioned, Shirak's dictionary relates "Rafig" to both "Raffi" and "Rafael." Furthermore, in the entry for "Raffi," it says "Also, Rafi."
3- As mentioned above, according to Shirak's dictionary it is "Ռաֆֆի" but the poet used 'Ր' instead of 'Ռ'

One last detail, it says - in the Armenian section of the dictionary - "Raffi anoun@ g@ kordzadzen arti Barsignern al." Is that true?

Also, according to "Rafiq/Rafik"means friend in Arabic; (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Rafiq) but I'm inclined to think that it is not related to the Armenian "Rafig/Rafik" that is probably a diminutive

It may not be as simple as that!

On these lists of Armenian names, I noticed some ridiculous first names such as Rashid, Bakhchangyul, Abbas, Dadash, Ghaplan, Hajibab, Jahan, Jalal, Jamal, Javad, Aghgyul etc., I don't know if they are still being used or not but these names (of whatever non-Armenian origin) should be wiped out of Armenian consciousness, for some clear reason.

I see what you mean, that's exactly why I raised the issue of specifying inclusion/exclusion criteria in a dictionary of Armenian First Names. How inclusive/exclusive should it be? It's not that simple or obvious.
By the way, I felt the same about "Arabo" and "Seroj" - "Seroj" sounds like an iranification of "Serj???"
Also, all the Arbis that I've met were born in Armenian families from Iran.

Ps: I also wanted to make a small list of some common Armenian names of Persian origin but it seems unnecessary since some sites provide such information.
I agree, do it when necessary. I'm sure that you have other obligations and interests in life.

Lucin

07-22-2007, 08:54 AM

LOL So making "Siamanto" an Armenian First Name would be your contribution to the "preservation" of the Armenian Culture??? :)

No, no Armenian MALE first name ( LOL)… in case you did not get it; I was just joking about it, in my previous post. :)

Shouldn't you start with those that are "real" Armenian First Names in the list above?? Many of them exist in Shirak's dictionary, I will come back to it once I receive the other two dictionaries.

Which were not real, except for probably Arbi or Arabo??

In any case, that raises the question: What should a dictionary of (Armenian) First Names include?

I'll try to give my own reasoning, below :

1- Of course, it should include the First Names

Yes.

2- It should include the diminutives such Hagopig, Aramig etc.

The diminutives, such as Hakopik or Aramik should come as complements for Hakop or Aram, for instance; Hakop: 'an explanation for the name Hakop' + there exists also Hakopik…

3- It should include "derivatives" such as "Sako," "Artin" that are not First Names; usually, the official name is "Sarkis," "Harout/Haroutioun" etc.

However, the derivatives, contrary to the diminutives, have usually been so "corrupted" and changed that probably could be considered as new names??? Since today they are being used independently.

However, should it include
4- Nicknames - i.e. pen names, war names etc. - that are not derived from First Names and are not widely enough used?

Widely used or rarely used, is not a good criterion to start with- whether to include or exclude a name;
First of all, today I'd rather consider names such as Raffi or Siamanto, Armenian first names, although formerly pen names. Second of all, it is not possible to exclude some Armenian names, just because they are not widely used.

5- Should it include "creative" First Names even if they are/refer to Armenian locations or other symbols i.e. "Nakhitchevan," "Giligia?"

The root of these names is simply Armenian- although not widely spread, unfortunately- but why not include names such as Urfa, Van, or Malatya … but instead include Bakhchangyul in the list???

6- Foreign First Names that are - or were used - used in a particular community reflecting a foreign influence such as "Jean-Claude," "Vladimir" or "Arbi" - I'm not sure if "Arbi" falls in this category but all Arbis that I have met are born in Armenian families from Iran???

In my opinion, no, they should not be included. There are names such as Vladimir, Jean-Claude, Michel, Patrick, etc about which you have no doubt that they are Russian, French or Irish as they are being widely used by these people. So why make these widespread clearly foreign names, Armenian??
But I would not claim the same for Arbi, for two reasons: 1.'We' don't know its exact origin 2. Arbi is not common among non-Armenians.

7- Isolated cases such as "Hasan" - in "Melik Hasan." (Is this a special case of 6?)

It might be a special case of 6, but as I stated before, these Islamo-Turkic craps (here 7 gets separated from 6) should be wiped out of our consciousness. Not only they are not good reminders but also they have got nothing to do with Our Culture. (And interestingly, the Islamic craps such as Hasan, Hussein, Javad, Abbas or Abdul- listed as "Armenian" First Names- which are sometimes being used in Iran as first names, nowadays pass as ugly, backward, old-fashioned and pretty naff names, even in Iran.)

Personally, I simply raised a question when I said - and I think that it's too early to make any assumptions:
"The question is: Is "Raffig" the same as "Rafig/Rafik?" Even if not, are "Raffi" and "Rafig/Rafik" etymologically related?"

And when explaining why the question should be raised, I added - among other reasons:
"2- I don't remember seeing "Raffig/Raffik" in any of the lists, only "Rafig/Rafik/Rapig/Rafik" - which makes it even more confusing???"

My question is; does Raffik(with two ff ) exist at all??? I didn't see Raffik in any of the lists either, just as you had said earlier.

Similar lexical transformations are so common in natural languages and seldom have a semantic or other significance. I would be more careful.
1. Consider the Italian "Raffaele" and the Spanish "Rafael."
2. According to Shirak's dictionary it is "Ռաֆֆի" but the poet used 'Ր' instead of 'Ռ'

There seems to be holes in this Shirak's dictionary??
Some 'lexical' transformations do have semantic significance; my emphasis here is more on "Ռ " and "Ր" and in Armenian language. Take for example բեռ( load) and բեր( bring); the commutation of these two consonnats ( or others) could lead to new words with new meanings. The same could go for "Ռաֆիկ" and "Րաֆֆի"...

Not so fast. Unfortunately, it does not explains it, for the following reasons:
1- Those who are named "Raffi" are often called "Raffig" or "Rafig" therefore they are somehow related.

Ռաֆիկ yes, but we are not sure yet if Րաֆֆիկ exists also or not.

2- As I have already mentioned, Shirak's dictionary relates "Rafig" to both "Raffi" and "Rafael." Furthermore, in the entry for "Raffi," it says "Also, Rafi."
3- As mentioned above, according to Shirak's dictionary it is "Ռաֆֆի" but the poet used 'Ր' instead of 'Ռ'

Weird… but I'd like to verify it with some other sources, and I'd be glad if you check them out, once you receive the other two dictionaries.( To check also, whether "Siamanto" is included or not.)

One last detail, it says - in the Armenian section of the dictionary - "Raffi anoun@ g@ kordzadzen arti Barsignern al." Is that true?

No way. Again weird…

Also, according to "Rafiq/Rafik"means friend in Arabic; (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Rafiq) but I'm inclined to think that it is not related to the Armenian "Rafig/Rafik" that is probably a diminutive

It may not be as simple as that!

I don't think so either. Anyway, you can relate any word to another word in some other languages.

By the way, I felt the same about "Arabo" and "Seroj" - "Seroj" sounds like an iranification of "Serj???"

Why?? Seroj??? How so?? I don't think of it as an iranification but probably a derivative of Serj, just like Sarkis/ Sako??

Also, all the Arbis that I've met were born in Armenian families from Iran.

I didn't know that, actually I hadn't noticed it.

Siamanto

07-23-2007, 07:52 PM

Despite the fact that I started noticing a couple of ideas maturing, taking shape and becoming articulate; I will continue to brainstorm and, in a "couple of days," I will take a step backwards and try to summarize and structure our views.

No, no Armenian MALE first name ( LOL)… in case you did not get it; I was just joking about it, in my previous post. :)

I know...What do you think I was doing? :)

Which were not real, except for probably Arbi or Arabo??

Let's come back to the list once I have all three dictionaries. We already have enough to do for now??? :)

The diminutives, such as Hakopik or Aramik should come as complements for Hakop or Aram, for instance; Hakop: 'an explanation for the name Hakop' + there exists also Hakopik…

However, the derivates, contrary to the diminutives, have usually been so "corrupted" and changed that probably could be considered as new names??? Since today they are being used independently.

1. Consider a Use Case where where someone looks for an entry in a dictionary - the person may or may not be familiar with Armenian First Names. Whether diminutives and/or derivatives should have their own entry or be included in the entry of the "root" First Name can be considered as an organizational - or "navigational" - detail aiming to facilitate the search or lookup.
The main purpose of a dictionary is to provide an explanation to the user in the easiest and most complete, accurate manner.

2. I don't know if "today they are being used independently????" Of course, there may be some exceptions???
My experience suggests that "Sako" is still used for "Sarkis," "Artin" is used - among senior Armenians??? - for "Haroutioun" etc.

However, should it include
4- Nicknames - i.e. pen names, war names etc. - that are not derived from First Names and are not widely enough used?

Widely used or rarely used, is not a good criterion to start with- whether to include or exclude a name;
First of all, today I'd rather consider names such as Raffi or Siamanto, Armenian first names, although formerly pen names. Second of all, it is not possible to exclude some Armenian names, just because they are not widely used.

1- Consider the "how widely it is used" as one aspect of the usage of a First Name, as opposed to the origin; for instance, consider the discussion of "Arbi" and "Sebastian" further below.
From an etymological point of view, both the origin and the usage of a word/name are of relevance.

2- At this point, I would not compare "Raffi" and "Siamanto" for the following reasons
2.1 "Raffi" is quite widely used
2.2 "Raffi" is also used by non-Armenians; for instance, Iranians - see links further below
2.3 We don't know if "Raffi" predated the novelist or not??

3- Considering that I have chosen "Siamanto" as my alias, I would also consider "Siamanto" as a First Name; but, that's nothing but a personal choice.

5- Should it include "creative" First Names even if they are/refer to Armenian locations or other symbols i.e. "Nakhitchevan," "Giligia?"

The root of these names is simply Armenian- although not widely spread, unfortunately- but why not include names such as Urfa, Van, or Malatya … but instead include Bakhchangyul in the list???

This started looking somehow similar to the "pen name case."
Can - or should - a dictionary include all infrequent and "creative" cases? Even if, in principle, I can go both ways but, in practice, one has to draw the line; otherwise, it may become overwhelming??? In any case, the reader should be told about the infrequent and "creative" aspect of it.

Again, both the usage and the origin are etymologically relevant.

6- Foreign First Names that are - or were used - used in a particular community reflecting a foreign influence such as "Jean-Claude," "Vladimir" or "Arbi" - I'm not sure if "Arbi" falls in this category but all Arbis that I have met are born in Armenian families from Iran???

In my opinion, no, they should not be included. There are names such as Vladimir, Jean-Claude, Michel, Patrick, etc about which you have no doubt that they are Russian, French or Irish as they are being widely used by these people. So why make these widespread clearly foreign names, Armenian??
But I would not claim the same for Arbi, for two reasons: 1.'We' don't know its exact origin 2. Arbi is not common among non-Armenians.

It makes sense, however
1. Many - if not most - Armenian First Names were once in the same category including "Krikor???" and "Roupen???" etc. etc. I think that it's a matter of time and how widely it is used before a loaned First Name becomes Armenian???

2. I agree, in principle; but, again, consider it also from the point of view of the user of the dictionary who's looking for answers about his/her past or a community he/she just discovered - a community that may include many Vladimirs, Igors or Jean-Claudes.
Of course, if included, it should mention the origin and may only include the most frequent ones - for practical reasons.

3. I hear you about "Arbi;" however, do we know the exact origin of "Sebastian?" Is it an Armenian First Name? What about the city of Sebastia? Also, I don't know when the city of Sebastopol was founded but, wasn't the region around Sebastopol called "Maritime Armenia?" Isn't "Sebastian/Sebastien" more common among non-Armenians - for instance, among the French?

7- Isolated cases such as "Hasan" - in "Melik Hasan." (Is this a special case of 6?)

It might be a special case of 6, but as I stated before, these Islamo-Turkic craps (here 7 gets separated from 6) should be wiped out of our consciousness. Not only they are not good reminders but also they have got nothing to do with Our Culture. (And interestingly, the Islamic craps such as Hasan, Hussein, Javad, Abbas or Abdul- listed as "Armenian" First Names- which are sometimes being used in Iran as first names, nowadays pass as ugly, backward, old-fashioned and pretty naff names, even in Iran.)

1. Again, as in 6, consider someone who is not familiar enough with the Armenian Culture - can even be a member of the Diaspora -
reads about Melik Hasan; shouldn't the dictionary include an entry and provide an explanation regarding the non-Armenian origin?

2. "Islamo-Turkic crap" or Russian/French loan, isn't it the same from an etymological and dictionary point of view?

My question is; does Raffik(with two ff ) exist at all??? I didn't see Raffik in any of the lists either, just as you had said earlier.

We seem to agree that "Raffik/Raffig" probably does not exist.
Forgetting the orthograph, are "Raffi" and "Rafael" etymologically related? That's what matters to me and the collected data does not seem decisive, so far.

Similar lexical transformations are so common in natural languages and seldom have a semantic or other significance. I would be more careful.
1. Consider the Italian "Raffaele" and the Spanish "Rafael."
2. According to Shirak's dictionary it is "Ռաֆֆի" but the poet used 'Ր' instead of 'Ռ'

There seems to be holes in this Shirak's dictionary??
Some 'lexical' transformations do have semantic significance; my emphasis here is more on "Ռ " and "Ր" and in Armenian language. Take for example բեռ( load) and բեր( bring); the commutation of these two consonnats ( or others) could lead to new words with new meanings. The same could go for "Ռաֆիկ" and "Րաֆֆի"...

1. The Armenian section of Armenian Names (http://armenian.name/index.php?a=index&d=5) includes "ՐԱՖՖԻ" only, while Shirak includes only "Ռաֆֆի." Also, both "Ռաֆֆի" and "ՐԱՖՖԻ" seem to exist, in reality, as a First Name. LOL It's seem like a big mess??? Can it be a "dialectal/regional" difference????

2. I thought that the focus was how "Raffi" and "Rafel/Raphael/Rafel/Raffaele/Rapael/..." were transliterated in Armenian? I had in mind lexical transformations across different languages where a word of the same origin is transformed through time; "բեռ( load) and բեր( bring)" may not be an appropriate example.

Ռաֆիկ yes, but we are not sure yet if Րաֆֆիկ exists also or not.

Please see my answer above to a similar question.

Weird… but I'd like to verify it with some other sources, and I'd be glad if you check them out, once you receive the other two dictionaries.

Please see my answer above to a similar question.

One last detail, it says - in the Armenian section of the dictionary - "Raffi anoun@ g@ kordzadzen arti Barsignern al." Is that true?

No way. Again weird…

It seems that both "Rafi" and "Raffi" are used among Iranians - including in the past.

Rafi
Past: Rafi ibn Harthama (http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-489472/Rafi-ibn-Harthama)
Present: Rafi Pitts (http://www.iranian.com/PhotoDay/2007/February/pitts.html) or Raffi Pitts :) (http://www.dvdoutsider.co.uk/dvd/reviews/i/its_winter.html)

Raffi:
Now: Raffi Kirdi (http://www.polarisimages.com/Portfolios/Photographers/Raffi_Kirdi/)
Last Name: Ali Raffi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_Iran)

"Rafi" was also used among Arabs and J-e-w-s; however, most likely, it was a loan from Persians???? Also, the J-e-w-ish "Rafi" - but not the Arabic - is probably???? - I did not check - a diminutive of "Raphael/Rafael???"

Why?? Seroj??? How so?? I don't think of it as an iranification but probably a derivant of Serj, just like Sarkis/ Sako??

Because vowels in Farsi may not be explicit and both "Seroj" and "Serj" would be written in the same way in Farsi???
It seems like an obvious transformation???

Also, all the Arbis that I've met were born in Armenian families from Iran.

I didn't know that, actually I hadn't noticed it.
The same applies to "Narbi???" I'm aware that it's only a personal experience, but I have never any Armenian named "Arbi" or "Narbi" who was not born in an Armenian family from Iran.

Sip

07-23-2007, 08:18 PM

It seems that both "Rafi" and "Raffi" is used among Iranians - and Persians in the past.

Rafi
Past: Rafi ibn Harthama (http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-489472/Rafi-ibn-Harthama)
Present: Rafi Pitts (http://www.iranian.com/PhotoDay/2007/February/pitts.html) or Raffi Pitts :) (http://www.dvdoutsider.co.uk/dvd/reviews/i/its_winter.html)

Raffi:
Now: Raffi Kirdi (http://www.polarisimages.com/Portfolios/Photographers/Raffi_Kirdi/)
Last Name: Ali Raffi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_Iran)

I simply cannot understand why you are so reluctant to admit Lucin is right about Siamanto being an Armenian male name.

Here are some links for you:

Here's a Siamanto Garabedian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homenetmen)
Here's a Siamanto Avakian (http://www.southcoastfiltration.com/contact.htm) and another ref to Siamanto Avakian (http://www.ararat.org/pdfs/AraratNewsletter-April2004.pdf) (pdf file)
Here's a Siamanto Maronian (http://www.ayfwest.org/haytoug/spring_2004/thoughtson24.htm)
Here's another reference to Siamanto Maronian (http://www.ayfwest.org/haytoug/summer_2004/badanegan.htm) in case you were going to claim that might be a pen name.
Here's a Siamanto Etian (http://www.bhsclassof64.org/pg_40th_reunion_News.htm)
Here's a Siamanto Oknaian (http://armmusic.free.fr/welcome/comments.php) (there is a Siamanto Ismaily on that site too from Portugal).
Here's Siamanto Oknaian (http://www.savemelkonian.org/docs/Articles/Archive%202004/04_02_27_oknaian.htm) again.
Here's a Siamanto Somokian (http://www.april24.com/)
Here's a Siamanto Martirossian (http://www.armeniadiaspora.com/ADC/repats/repats.asp)

And this is from just a quick google search. I mean how many more do I have to find until you will admit you were wrong and that Siamanto is in fact an Armenian name that is typically given to males (as opposed to females). :rolleyes:

Oh and if you are going to claim I went around and edited all those websites, I hope you will think twice about what it really is you are trying to say. All this discussion because you just can't get yourself to admit publically you were wrong? It's not that hard. Everyone knows it :p

Siamanto

07-24-2007, 08:04 PM

I simply cannot understand why you are so reluctant to admit Lucin is right about Siamanto being an Armenian male name.

Don't worry too much because there's' little you seem to understand; :) but, before I answer - again - your superfluous question in point 4 below, I will make some relevant comments:

1. I'm glad to see that my approach to show the usage of "Raffi/Rafi" among Iranians gave you the idea to, finally, :) produce something other than your usual hot air. Unfortunately, as we'll see later, you have done - as usual - a poor job.

2. The consensus among "specialists - i.e. people who have apparently spent enough time on the subject - such as the author of Shiraks' dictionary and the most "reliable" sites on the subject mentioned above, being what it is, then I suggest that you contact them and ask them why they are "reluctant to admit [that] Lucin is right about Siamanto being an Armenian male name" and why they "can't get themselves to admit public[al]ly [that] they were wrong?"
They may be amused as much as I am. :)

3. Is it about "Lucin being right" or is it about you and your obsession? You seem to be obsessed with something - whatever it is - but why are you hiding behind someone else? How low is your sense of morality?

4. Most importantly, you don't seem to understand - not surprisingly - that
4.1. Some of us base their decision on reliable data instead of hot air as you do
4.2. We still did not gather enough data to answer decisively the questions that I've raised in my reply to Lucin, reproduced below

Well, it is typically a name given to males (as Sip said) an example is my aunt's husband :)

Siamanto is a pen name that was assumed by a male poet and may be used to name either a boy or a girl; it is not even an Armenian First Name. You know a single male person who was probably named after Siamanto, the poet, and you use the word "typically???"
Why not something like: "Because it was used as a pen name by a male poet, it would be rather used to name a boy child than a girl?" Too moderate or more accurate for your taste??? :)
Honestly, I wonder if there are - or has been - enough Armenians - around the world - named "Siamanto" in order to use the word "typically."

Here are some links for you:

Here's a Siamanto Garabedian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homenetmen)
Here's a Siamanto Avakian (http://www.southcoastfiltration.com/contact.htm) and another ref to Siamanto Avakian (http://www.ararat.org/pdfs/AraratNewsletter-April2004.pdf) (pdf file)
Here's a Siamanto Maronian (http://www.ayfwest.org/haytoug/spring_2004/thoughtson24.htm)
Here's another reference to Siamanto Maronian (http://www.ayfwest.org/haytoug/summer_2004/badanegan.htm) in case you were going to claim that might be a pen name.
Here's a Siamanto Etian (http://www.bhsclassof64.org/pg_40th_reunion_News.htm)
Here's a Siamanto Oknaian (http://armmusic.free.fr/welcome/comments.php) (there is a Siamanto Ismaily on that site too from Portugal).
Here's Siamanto Oknaian (http://www.savemelkonian.org/docs/Articles/Archive%202004/04_02_27_oknaian.htm) again.
Here's a Siamanto Somokian (http://www.april24.com/)
Here's a Siamanto Martirossian (http://www.armeniadiaspora.com/ADC/repats/repats.asp)

And this is from just a quick google search. I mean how many more do I have to find until you will admit you were wrong and that Siamanto is in fact an Armenian name that is typically given to males (as opposed to females). :rolleyes:

"Genius," LOL where does it say that they are females? I'm not making any assumptions on their gender, but LOL do you see anything on those pages that mentions or suggests that they are males? LOL Just because you want them to be males, they should be or are males? :) With all due respect, even jurks are not as dumb as you are.
The poor quality of your work and the mediocre quality of your reasoning is pitiful and saddening.

Also, I don't know if it matters whether it was a "quick google search" or not; but the words of a sore loser with almost no sense of morality, a coward who hides behind someone else and a most-likely-fraud with no sense of Intellectual Integrity who is obsessively trying to either annoy or save face are worthless.

Oh and if you are going to claim I went around and edited all those websites, I hope you will think twice about what it really is you are trying to say.

Kogh sird@ togh? I don't take such an accusation lightly and I would not accuse someone so easily.
For Armeniapedia, the events suggests that you - whether personally or by proxy -
1. Have probably tempered with the data before presenting it as a document that supports your point
2. When I raised the issue, you disappeared all evening and night - so odd for someone who seems to be around 24/7
3. When you reappeared, early morning, the content of the "History" tab was altered
One can't be sure, but it's suspicious enough and considering your sense of morality and lack of Intellectual Integrity, guess what I may assume???

Get over it and stop torturing yourself with your attempts to save face.

All this discussion because you just can't get yourself to admit publically you were wrong? It's not that hard. Everyone knows it :p
I think that you're becoming obsessed with your own illusions; because this thread has nothing to do with your illusory issue.
If you have anything useful to add, please do so and it will be appreciated; otherwise, please take your hot air and whining somewhere else, or go play with the jurks - LOL where are they when you need them? - and people who are of your mental age.

Don't you have enough of your never ending and obsessive whining? Is it helping you?

Sip

07-24-2007, 08:30 PM

Will someone please provide the cliffs notes version of what this guy is babbling about? I lost track somewhere in between "there's little you understand" to "obsessive whining".

Until then, all I can say is WTF?

Are you b!tching about Siamanto not being an Armenian name, or Siamanto not being a male Armenian name? If you are b!tching about the former, obviously you have no ground to stand as I have clearly provided you a list of Armenians. If you are b!tching about the latter, do your books list Siamanto as a "female" name?

zourna

07-25-2007, 08:13 AM

Lucin

07-25-2007, 11:06 AM

1. Consider a Use Case where where someone looks for an entry in a dictionary - the person may or may not be familiar with Armenian First Names. Whether diminutives and/or derivatives should have their own entry or be included in the entry of the "root" First Name can be considered as an organizational - or "navigational" - detail aiming to facilitate the search or lookup.
The main purpose of a dictionary is to provide an explanation to the user in the easiest and most complete, accurate manner.

Yes, I didn't say otherwise. And I think the inclusion of the diminutives and derivatives in that manner (the way I had explained) is organized, and pretty comprehensive. But again it could be a matter of taste as well.

2. I don't know if "today they are being used independently????" Of course, there may be some exceptions???
My experience suggests that "Sako" is still used for "Sarkis," "Artin" is used - among senior Armenians??? - for "Haroutioun" etc.

This is true, but today Artins, Arutins or Sakos are actually being used independently, as opposed to seniors.

1- Consider the "how widely it is used" as one aspect of the usage of a First Name, as opposed to the origin; for instance, consider the discussion of "Arbi" and "Sebastian" further below.
From an etymological point of view, both the origin and the usage of a word/name are of relevance.

Do you really think a dictionary should tell about the frequency or the infrequency of a name?
How is this possible??? There are names used widely, there are names used rarely, names used very rarely… there will be many categorizations and levels regarding the usage of the names.

2- At this point, I would not compare "Raffi" and "Siamanto" for the following reasons
2.1 "Raffi" is quite widely used
2.2 "Raffi" is also used by non-Armenians; for instance, Iranians - see links further below
2.3 We don't know if "Raffi" predated the novelist or not??

It seems that both "Rafi" and "Raffi" are used among Iranians - including in the past.

Rafi
Past: Rafi ibn Harthama (http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-489472/Rafi-ibn-Harthama)
Present: Rafi Pitts (http://www.iranian.com/PhotoDay/2007/February/pitts.html) or Raffi Pitts :) (http://www.dvdoutsider.co.uk/dvd/reviews/i/its_winter.html)

Raffi:
Now: Raffi Kirdi (http://www.polarisimages.com/Portfolios/Photographers/Raffi_Kirdi/)
Last Name: Ali Raffi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_Iran)

"Rafi" was also used among Arabs and J-e-w-s; however, most likely, it was a loan from Persians???? Also, the J-e-w-ish "Rafi" - but not the Arabic - is probably???? - I did not check - a diminutive of "Raphael/Rafael???"

LOL, now I see… Րաֆֆի is not used by the Iranians, however there is a common surname among them, which looks like 'Rafi' while written in English (in Latin letters). The surname is pronounced as Ռաֆիը or Ռաֆիի (the 'ա' is pronounced as in 'sad'); my transliteration in Armenian, given above, is something similar and close to its original pronunciation in Persian but not the exact one as there is a letter in this Persian/Arabic word that simply does not exist neither in Armenian nor in English. LOL, you've got to hear my voice to see what I mean. :)
Also, the word interestingly means tall and outstanding. It seems to me far from our "Րաֆֆի" but again this is not for sure; since here is another point; Raffi, the novelist was born in Salmas, a city in the north of Iran, considering this fact, could his pen name be actually a Persian/Arabic influence???

If the accuracy of its Persian/Arabic origin is proved then it has predated the novelist.
By the way,the links you provided to prove that 'Rafi' is an "Iranian" name were not accurate.( For one of the reasons, see my explanation above)

It makes sense, however
1. Many - if not most - Armenian First Names were once in the same category including "Krikor???" and "Roupen???" etc. etc. I think that it's a matter of time and how widely it is used before a loaned First Name becomes Armenian???

Maybe but till then we'd rather not include them. As for Grigor or Rouben, it seems that they have been kind of Armenianized…

2. I agree, in principle; but, again, consider it also from the point of view of the user of the dictionary who's looking for answers about his/her past or a community he/she just discovered - a community that may include many Vladimirs, Igors or Jean-Claudes.
Of course, if included, it should mention the origin and may only include the most frequent ones - for practical reasons.

Lol, if we take into consideration these small cases, then we should include all the non-Armenian names used by Diasporan Armenians in different corners of the world, names such as Joe, Jack, Bryan, Jean… basically I don't agree with it.
If I personally were a non-Armenian, and had to see for instance Jacques or Jean-Claude(uniquely used by French Armenians and the French) in an Armenian names' dictionary, I would be a bit confused… Furthermore, imagine how many French names should be included to cover the many French Armenians who often use French names.

3. I hear you about "Arbi;" however, do we know the exact origin of "Sebastian?" Is it an Armenian First Name? What about the city of Sebastia? Also, I don't know when the city of Sebastopol was founded but, wasn't the region around Sebastopol called "Maritime Armenia?" Isn't "Sebastian/Sebastien" more common among non-Armenians - for instance, among the French?

Not sure if Sebastia or Sebastapol is Armenian( as a word). It's not an appropriate example.

1. Again, as in 6, consider someone who is not familiar enough with the Armenian Culture - can even be a member of the Diaspora -
reads about Melik Hasan; shouldn't the dictionary include an entry and provide an explanation regarding the non-Armenian origin?

I hear you but it seems unnecessary since they disappear gradually???

2. "Islamo-Turkic crap" or Russian/French loan, isn't it the same from an etymological and dictionary point of view?

Technically it is the same but the difference is that the Islamic crap is gradually being forgotten as far as I know, however the French or Russian loans are widespread (unfortunately).

We seem to agree that "Raffik/Raffig" probably does not exist.
Forgetting the orthograph, are "Raffi" and "Rafael" etymologically related? That's what matters to me and the collected data does not seem decisive, so far.

Considering the Arabic origin as "correct", then they cannot be related.

1. The Armenian section of Armenian Names (http://armenian.name/index.php?a=index&d=5) includes "ՐԱՖՖԻ" only, while Shirak includes only "Ռաֆֆի." Also, both "Ռաֆֆի" and "ՐԱՖՖԻ" seem to exist, in reality, as a First Name. LOL It's seem like a big mess??? Can it be a "dialectal/regional" difference????

LOL, the late writer used Րաֆֆի as his pen name, I don't know where Ռաֆֆի comes from???

2. I thought that the focus was how "Raffi" and "Rafel/Raphael/Rafel/Raffaele/Rapael/..." were transliterated in Armenian? I had in mind lexical transformations across different languages where a word of the same origin is transformed through time; "բեռ( load) and բեր( bring)" may not be an appropriate example.

Yes, the focus was on Raffi and I just wanted to show that Րաֆֆի and Ռաֆաէլ may not be related either.

Because vowels in Farsi may not be explicit and both "Seroj" and "Serj" would be written in the same way in Farsi???
It seems like an obvious transformation???

Vowels between the letters (inside the word) are not explicit but in 'Serj' there is no vowel between 'r' and 'j'. However, we can put this, another way; considering that Persians have sometimes difficulty pronouncing two successive consonants, so the 'o' may facilitate the pronunciation for them. But it's just an assumption.

The same applies to "Narbi???" I'm aware that it's only a personal experience, but I have never any Armenian named "Arbi" or "Narbi" who was not born in an Armenian family from Iran.

Maybe… it's Narbe.

Siamanto

07-27-2007, 02:41 PM

Roupen, haunts me!
Not that I don't like the name. My favorite by the way.
Roupinian ishkhanoutioun is all that I have for reference as for it's etymology, however I have no clue of it's connotation, that if their is one in the first place.
Enlighten me, please.

We may come back to it later; but, for now, "chew on this:"
1. "Ruben" seems to be the Iberian form of the Hebrew "Reuven." Was it introduced among Armenians from the South - i.e. Persian/Semitic influence - the West - Greek/Latin/European influence - or...?
2. It is composed of "Reu/Ru" that means "behold" and "ven/ben" that means son, in Hebrew.
3. It was used, at least, since the 11th Century by the prince who have founded the Roupinian/Rubinian dynasty. The prince was, apparently, among those Armenians who moved West from the Eastern regions of historic Armenian after the Seljuks invasions.
Was it used earlier?

Why is it "haunting" you? If it's "haunting" you, would you care to you contribute to the thread with data, as you can? Thanks. After all, the thread is meant to be a collaborative effort and not a service that we provide to the forum members. :)

Siamanto

07-27-2007, 10:47 PM

Two preliminary comments:
1. I have noticed that you have started to appreciate the importance of the usage of a word, besides and regardless of it's origins
2. You continue to give too much imortance to certain lexical or phonetic differences, specially when different languages, regions and periods are considered.
As a Diasporan Armenian you have probably had the opportunity to witness all the many ways Armenian First Names can be transliterated, transformed and "butchered."

Yes, I didn't say otherwise. And I think the inclusion of the diminutives and derivatives in that manner (the way I had explained) is organized, and pretty comprehensive. But again it could be a matter of taste as well.

Yes, unless one organization is shown to have all features of another, plus other desirable ones, then it is a matter of taste.

2. I don't know if "today they are being used independently????" Of course, there may be some exceptions???
My experience suggests that "Sako" is still used for "Sarkis," "Artin" is used - among senior Armenians??? - for "Haroutioun" etc.

This is true, but today Artins, Arutins or Sakos are actually being used independently, as opposed to seniors.

1. Just curious, what do you exactly mean by "independently?" Does it mean that their Birth Certificate says "Sako" instead of "Sarkis?" If yes, to what percentage of cases does it apply? According to my experience, a person called "Sako" in life, is called "Sarkis" on the Birth Certificate and a person called "Artin," "Haroutioun." Of course, there may be exceptions, but how often does it occur?

2. As you can tell from the above that "among senior Armenians" was applied only to "Artin." I don't know how it is in Iran, but I don't know if the younger generations use "Artin" for "Haroutioun."
Are you saying that young Armenians call a Harout "Artin" and/or have "Artin" - as First Name - on their Birth Certificate?

Do you really think a dictionary should tell about the frequency or the infrequency of a name?
How is this possible??? There are names used widely, there are names used rarely, names used very rarely… there will be many categorizations and levels regarding the usage of the names.

Why not? It's nothing unusual, even in a regular dictionary, because a dictionary is not only about the meaning or origin of a word, it's also about the usage of a word.
How is it possible? That is a simple technical detail. What is the challenge?

It seems that both "Rafi" and "Raffi" are used among Iranians - including in the past.

Rafi
Past: Rafi ibn Harthama (http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-489472/Rafi-ibn-Harthama)
Present: Rafi Pitts (http://www.iranian.com/PhotoDay/2007/February/pitts.html) or Raffi Pitts :) (http://www.dvdoutsider.co.uk/dvd/reviews/i/its_winter.html)

Raffi:
Now: Raffi Kirdi (http://www.polarisimages.com/Portfolios/Photographers/Raffi_Kirdi/)
Last Name: Ali Raffi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_Iran)

"Rafi" was also used among Arabs and J-e-w-s; however, most likely, it was a loan from Persians???? Also, the J-e-w-ish "Rafi" - but not the Arabic - is probably???? - I did not check - a diminutive of "Raphael/Rafael???"

LOL, now I see… Րաֆֆի is not used by the Iranians, however there is a common surname among them, which looks like 'Rafi' while written in English (in Latin letters). The surname is pronounced as Ռաֆիը or Ռաֆիի (the 'ա' is pronounced as in 'sad'); my transliteration in Armenian, given above, is something similar and close to its original pronunciation in Persian but not the exact one as there is a letter in this Persian/Arabic word that simply does not exist neither in Armenian nor in English. LOL, you've got to hear my voice to see what I mean. :)
....
By the way,the links you provided to prove that 'Rafi' is an "Iranian" name were not accurate.( For one of the reasons, see my explanation above)

LOL But you're seeing either blurry or magnified. :)
1. I don't understand your statement "however there is a common surname" when I gave examples of "Raffi" and "Rafi" used not only as a surname but also as a First Name; I even organized them to make it more obvious????

2. LOL *stares at you and smiles about the 'ը '* What makes you think that Armenians did not drop the 'ը' as well as some? What makes you think that Iranians did not add the 'ը'? Have you heard of the expression "You say tomato, I say tomahto?" :)
Similar differences in pronunciation exist between different regions and communities speaking the same language. Simply compare how Armenians from Iran pronounce the vowels in Armenian to - for instance - Armenians speaking Western Armenians. I'm not even talking about regional dialects.
By the way, for my ears, compared to other Armenians, Armenians from Iran, pronounce the 'ա' differently in every word.

3. Can you please explain in what sense the links are not "accurate" - so I can look for more "accurate" ones - because your explanation above was nowhere near convincing? Thanks.

As I see it, "Rafi/Raffi" was used among Iranians, in the past and the present.

Also, the word interestingly means tall and outstanding. It seems to me far from our "Րաֆֆի" but again this is not for sure; since here is another point; Raffi, the novelist was born in Salmas, a city in the north of Iran, considering this fact, could his pen name be actually a Persian/Arabic influence???

What do you mean by "seems to me far from our 'Րաֆֆի?'" LOL *hopes that you don't mean physically* :)
What is your point?

If the accuracy of its Persian/Arabic origin is proved then it has predated the novelist.

As you know, my initial inclination was that the First Name - regardless of the origin - predates the writer and, so far, the collected data favors that scenario.

1. Many - if not most - Armenian First Names were once in the same category including "Krikor???" and "Roupen???" etc. etc. I think that it's a matter of time and how widely it is used before a loaned First Name becomes Armenian???

Maybe but till then we'd rather not include them. As for Grigor or Rouben, it seems that they have been kind of Armenianized…

I'm glad that you finally started to appreciate the relevance of the usage at opposed to the origin??? :) However, please keep in mind that it's only one of the parameters.

2. I agree, in principle; but, again, consider it also from the point of view of the user of the dictionary who's looking for answers about his/her past or a community he/she just discovered - a community that may include many Vladimirs, Igors or Jean-Claudes.
Of course, if included, it should mention the origin and may only include the most frequent ones - for practical reasons.

Lol, if we take into consideration these small cases, then we should include all the non-Armenian names used by Diasporan Armenians in different corners of the world, names such as Joe, Jack, Bryan, Jean… basically I don't agree with it.
If I personally were a non-Armenian, and had to see for instance Jacques or Jean-Claude(uniquely used by French Armenians and the French) in an Armenian names' dictionary, I would be a bit confused… Furthermore, imagine how many French names should be included to cover the many French Armenians who often use French names.

1. I would not discard those cases that easily, as they are, from a usage point of view, much less "small cases" than "Siamanto" because it's more likely to meet an Armenian bearing one of the above mentioned names.

2. "How many French [or Russian, American, Iranian etc.] names should be included to cover the many French Armenians who often use French names?" The answer was already suggested i.e.
" Of course, if included, it should mention the origin and may only include the most frequent ones - for practical reasons.'

3. I hear you about "Arbi;" however, do we know the exact origin of "Sebastian?" Is it an Armenian First Name? What about the city of Sebastia? Also, I don't know when the city of Sebastopol was founded but, wasn't the region around Sebastopol called "Maritime Armenia?" Isn't "Sebastian/Sebastien" more common among non-Armenians - for instance, among the French?

Not sure if Sebastia or Sebastapol is Armenian( as a word). It's not an appropriate example.

LOL because "Arbi" is "Armenian( as a word?)" :)
On a more serious not, Sebastia was a historic Armenian city and Sebastopol is located in a region called "Maritime Armenia" - so the point was that "Sebastian" may have an Armenian origin; yet, it's more commonly used among non-Armenians.
Do you remember your comments about "Arbi" being more widely used among Armenians than other Iranians? :)

I hear you but it seems unnecessary since they disappear gradually???

So? Dictionaries often include obsolete uses of a word.
Yes, usage is important; however, other relevant parameters should also be considered.

Technically it is the same but the difference is that the Islamic crap is gradually being forgotten as far as I know, however the French or Russian loans are widespread (unfortunately).

For now, let's keep aside our personal preferences and focus on the etymology.
Yes, usage is important; however, other relevant parameters should also be considered.

Forgetting the orthograph, are "Raffi" and "Rafael" etymologically related? That's what matters to me and the collected data does not seem decisive, so far.

Considering the Arabic origin as "correct", then they cannot be related.

It can also be that "Raffi" has two origins i.e.
1. A Perso-Arabic origin
2. A diminutive of "Rafael/Rapael" that may or may not have initially been "Rafi/Rapi"
At times, usage and time erode differences and creates "confusion" or add "noise" to create differences.
That's my inclination, but we don't know yet.

LOL, the late writer used Րաֆֆի as his pen name, I don't know where Ռաֆֆի comes from???

According to Shirak's dictionary - and it insists - the late writer changed B]Ռ[/B]աֆֆի to Րաֆֆի.
Is that impossible? Do you have data to disprove it? It would be nice to find a biographical document about Raffi, the novelist, that addresses this issue.

2. I thought that the focus was how "Raffi" and "Rafel/Raphael/Rafel/Raffaele/Rapael/..." were transliterated in Armenian? I had in mind lexical transformations across different languages where a word of the same origin is transformed through time; "բեռ( load) and բեր( bring)" may not be an appropriate example.

Yes, the focus was on Raffi and I just wanted to show that Րաֆֆի and Ռաֆաէլ may not be related either.

LOL The focus was on how "Raffi" and "Rafel/Raphael/Rafel/Raffaele/Rapael/..." were transliterated in Armenian and I was trying to point to the fact that such lexical transformations are not enough to "show that Րաֆֆի and Ռաֆաէլ may not be related."

Because vowels in Farsi may not be explicit and both "Seroj" and "Serj" would be written in the same way in Farsi???
It seems like an obvious transformation???

Vowels between the letters (inside the word) are not explicit but in 'Serj' there is no vowel between 'r' and 'j'. However, we can put this, another way; considering that Persians have sometimes difficulty pronouncing two successive consonants, so the 'o' may facilitate the pronunciation for them. But it's just an assumption.

LOL *stares at you and smiles* But in "Seroj" there exists a vowel between 'r' and 'j' that was probably added because because vowels in Farsi may not be explicit???

Maybe… it's Narbe.
Thanks. Both seem to exist but "Narbe" is the more common transliteration. The difference seems like "Arout" and "Kharout" i.e. speakers of different languages would not only pronounce words differently but also may hear words differently - based on their "phonetic filters;" I hear it as - or closer to - "Narbi."

Sip

07-27-2007, 11:06 PM

1. I would not discard those cases that easily, because, from a usage point of view, they are much less "small cases" than "Siamanto" because it's more likely to meet an Armenian bearing one of the above mentioned names.

Wow you are still stuck on this "Siamanto" hurdle? I thought I helped you to get over it. There is obviously a number of Armenian Siamantos running around (the male female thing is another issue as obviously typically they are all males. Now since you happen to be "female" ;) ;), you tend not to accept this fact for some reason). If you have a doubt that Siamanto is an exclusive "Armenian" name, please feel free to look for non Armenian Siamantos (of course there is the shoe company but I am talking about humans). I would be VERY much interested to see if you can find ANY non Armenians who have ever been named Siamanto.

Jacks, Jims, and Brians etc as "Armenian" names? I think even you would agree that there are far more non Armenians with those names than Armenians.

Lucin

07-29-2007, 11:12 AM

Two preliminary comments:
1. I have noticed that you have started to appreciate the importance of the usage of a word, besides and regardless of it's origins

I have appreciated the importance of the usage of a name, unless names such as Jean, Jacques, Joe, Jack, etc. which are clearly non-Armenian, widely used by non-Armenians and most times limited to a specific community. What's more, including these names in a dictionary favours their usage and could make them more spread.

2. You continue to give too much imortance to certain lexical or phonetic differences, specially when different languages, regions and periods are considered.
As a Diasporan Armenian you have probably had the opportunity to witness all the many ways Armenian First Names can be transliterated, transformed and "butchered."

I see what you mean but the opposite could also be true; sometimes the smallest lexical or phonetic change could make difference.

1. Just curious, what do you exactly mean by "independently?" Does it mean that their Birth Certificate says "Sako" instead of "Sarkis?" If yes, to what percentage of cases does it apply? According to my experience, a person called "Sako" in life, is called "Sarkis" on the Birth Certificate and a person called "Artin," "Haroutioun." Of course, there may be exceptions, but how often does it occur?

2. As you can tell from the above that "among senior Armenians" was applied only to "Artin." I don't know how it is in Iran, but I don't know if the younger generations use "Artin" for "Haroutioun."
Are you saying that young Armenians call a Harout "Artin" and/or have "Artin" - as First Name - on their Birth Certificate?

Yes, especially 'Artins' and 'Arutins', they are mentioned on the birth certificate instead of Haroutioun. It is common among the younger generations.

Why not? It's nothing unusual, even in a regular dictionary, because a dictionary is not only about the meaning or origin of a word, it's also about the usage of a word.
How is it possible? That is a simple technical detail. What is the challenge?

I mean names, for instance; used frequently, moderately, rarely then there are some cases which would fit somewhere between…and the latter seems to be a problem.

LOL But you're seeing either blurry or magnified. :)
1. I don't understand your statement "however there is a common surname" when I gave examples of "Raffi" and "Rafi" used not only as a surname but also as a First Name; I even organized them to make it more obvious????

LOL, none but you are definitely seeing blurry. The Persian Rafii today is uniquely used as a surname not a first name that's why I said 'however', in other words, you can't find 'arti Parsiks' named Raffi, also contrary to what Shirak's dictionary says. See my explanation on the links.
By the way, you are always organized and I appreciate it.

2. LOL *stares at you and smiles about the 'ը '* What makes you think that Armenians did not drop the 'ը' as well as some? What makes you think that Iranians did not add the 'ը'? Have you heard of the expression "You say tomato, I say tomahto?" :)

Armenians or Raffi, the novelist??
The Iranians have not added anything since the word itself is Persian.

Similar differences in pronunciation exist between different regions and communities speaking the same language. Simply compare how Armenians from Iran pronounce the vowels in Armenian to - for instance - Armenians speaking Western Armenians. I'm not even talking about regional dialects.
By the way, for my ears, compared to other Armenians, Armenians from Iran, pronounce the 'ա' differently in every word.

If I'm not mistaken you mean; they sometimes replace the Armenian 'ա' by the English 'a' as in 'sad', right? It's a Persian influence.

3. Can you please explain in what sense the links are not "accurate" - so I can look for more "accurate" ones - because your explanation above was nowhere near convincing? Thanks.

As I see it, "Rafi/Raffi" was used among Iranians, in the past and the present.

Rafi
Past: Rafi ibn Harthama (http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-489472/Rafi-ibn-Harthama)

His name is 'Rafiebn' and clearly Arabic, even if anything, he is not an arti Parsik anyway.

Present: Rafi Pitts (http://www.iranian.com/PhotoDay/2007/February/pitts.html) or Raffi Pitts :) (http://www.dvdoutsider.co.uk/dvd/reviews/i/its_winter.html)

He is not Iranian but xxxish so most probably his name his Rafael.

Raffi:
Now: Raffi Kirdi (http://www.polarisimages.com/Portfolios/Photographers/Raffi_Kirdi/)

Where does it suggest that the guy is Persian?? :confused: Furthermore, the guy simply cannot be Persian since the word "kir" in his surname refers to male's private parts in Persian.

Last Name: Ali Raffi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_Iran)

Yes, here this is correct, Rafii as a surname pronounced as something like Ռաֆիը or Ռաֆիի. In your previous posts, when you quoted "One last detail, it says - in the Armenian section of the dictionary - "Raffi anoun@ g@ kordzadzen arti Barsignern al." Is that true?" from Shirak's dictionary, I was thinking of first names in Persian but didn't find anything matching Raffi since it doesn't exist but when I saw the Ali Rafii (a 'familiar' name in the Iranian cinema) the penny dropped. But honestly the pronounciation was so different that it could never cross my mind, especially that a letter is dropped in the Armenian version and the two others ( 'r' and 'a') are pronounced differentely.

What do you mean by "seems to me far from our 'Րաֆֆի?'" LOL *hopes that you don't mean physically* :)
What is your point?

LOL, no I meant from a lexical and phonetic point of view, as I have explained how.

1. I would not discard those cases that easily, as they are, from a usage point of view, much less "small cases" than "Siamanto" because it's more likely to meet an Armenian bearing one of the above mentioned names.

2. "How many French [or Russian, American, Iranian etc.] names should be included to cover the many French Armenians who often use French names?" The answer was already suggested i.e.
" Of course, if included, it should mention the origin and may only include the most frequent ones - for practical reasons.'

I don't agree on this and I have already said why.

LOL because "Arbi" is "Armenian( as a word?)" :)
On a more serious not, Sebastia was a historic Armenian city and Sebastopol is located in a region called "Maritime Armenia" - so the point was that "Sebastian" may have an Armenian origin; yet, it's more commonly used among non-Armenians.
Do you remember your comments about "Arbi" being more widely used among Armenians than other Iranians? :)

What?? Iranians??? I said Arbi is not common among non-Armenians, including Iranians. :)

It can also be that "Raffi" has two origins i.e.
1. A Perso-Arabic origin
2. A diminutive of "Rafael/Rapael" that may or may not have initially been "Rafi/Rapi"
At times, usage and time erode differences and creates "confusion" or add "noise" to create differences.
That's my inclination, but we don't know yet.

Considering that he was a Persian-Armenian, the first option is something to think about.

According to Shirak's dictionary - and it insists - the late writer changed B]Ռ[/B]աֆֆի to Րաֆֆի.
Is that impossible? Do you have data to disprove it? It would be nice to find a biographical document about Raffi, the novelist, that addresses this issue.

LOL, it gets more confusing. I never knew he has changed the Ռ to Ր…

I dug out some old books and read up on his biography but found nothing worthy of mentioning, regarding his pen name. Also, I came across this detailed biography of Raffi (http://groong.usc.edu/tcc/tcc-20021209.html) on the net; although it does not give much information about his pen name but it's worth reading, it was touching…

LOL *stares at you and smiles* But in "Seroj" there exists a vowel between 'r' and 'j' that was probably added because because vowels in Farsi may not be explicit???

Sometimes, vowels are not explicit in Farsi. So what? First off, there is no vowel in Serj between 'r' and 'j', and then why add one to make 'Seroj'??

Siamanto

07-30-2007, 07:36 PM

I don't know if it's a Pavlovian Conditioning or a phobic reaction - as someone has suggested - but your behavior reminds that of an enraged dog who jumps into an agonizing hysteria when in presence of an obsessive signal, the word "Siamanto" in your case.
Now let's take a look at the expression of your hysteria:

Wow you are still stuck on this "Siamanto" hurdle?

Considering the facts that:
1. All your four posts in this thread obsessively focus on the word "Siamanto" while in all other posts, excluding my replies to your never ending whining, "Siamanto" occupies a little place
2. You can't seem to control your rage when the word "Siamanto" is in question
It still seems a challenge to our "genius" to realize who is "still stuck on this 'Siamanto' hurdle?"

The sad irony is that you jumped like an enraged dog just because "Siamanto" was given as an example of an infrequently used First Name relatively to some non-Armenian First Names, in a context where the relative usage - i.e. distribution of names - within the Armenian Communities, was being discussed??? You seem to enjoy making a fool of yourself.

I can't blame you; considering your poor reading skills and limited intellectual capabilities, it is probably a challenge to grasp a sentence and it's context at the same time.

I thought I helped you to get over it.

All you may have helped is to temporarily comfort your aching little mind. Unfortunately, getting hysterical does not seem to help your rage, in the long run; so try to cool down a little - just an idea - to see if it will help?

There is obviously a number of Armenian Siamantos running around (the male female thing is another issue as obviously typically they are all males. Now since you happen to be "female" ;) ;), you tend not to accept this fact for some reason).

Of course, LOL "obviously typically they are all males" when none of the links that you've presented as LOL "obvious" proof suggests that they are males!!! LOL Even jurks would have realized their stupidity by now!
LOL "Genius," just because your tiny little agonizing mind wants them to be males that they are, in deed, males?

If you have a doubt that Siamanto is an exclusive "Armenian" name, please feel free to look for non Armenian Siamantos (of course there is the shoe company but I am talking about humans). I would be VERY much interested to see if you can find ANY non Armenians who have ever been named Siamanto.

LOL The way you seem to have created a web of illusory problems is pathological and you seem to be "debating" with yourself. How did your obsessive mind come to the conclusion that the question whether "Siamanto is an exclusive 'Armenian' name' or not was raised?
Also, "genius," if "Siamanto" is not a First Name among non Armenians, does it mean anything????

In any case, why should I waste my time searching the Web for documents to prove or disprove a worthless idea; that is the job of a loser like you.

Jacks, Jims, and Brians etc as "Armenian" names? I think even you would agree that there are far more non Armenians with those names than Armenians.
Again your mediocre reading and intellectual skills???? or is it yet another illusory "issue" that your obsessive mind believes to have been raised?
1. Did anybody stated the above? Are you capable of grasping a sentence and it's context simultaneously? Too challenging for you?
2. There are many more Rubens, Annas, Maries, Rafaels etc. among non-Armenians; what does that prove?

Sip

07-30-2007, 09:24 PM

Sip

07-30-2007, 09:36 PM

Jacks, Jims, and Brians etc as "Armenian" names? I think even you would agree that there are far more non Armenians with those names than Armenians.
Again your mediocre reading and intellectual skills???? or is it yet another illusory "issue" that your obsessive mind believes to have been raised?
1. Did anybody stated the above? Are you capable of grasping a sentence and it's context simultaneously? Too challenging for you?
2. There are many more Rubens, Annas, Maries, Rafaels etc. among non-Armenians; what does that prove?

Why must everything always be so "adversarial" with you. Sound to me you agree with the premise of what I have said so what's with the on going insults? Wouldn't it have been soooo hard to instead of writing all that garbage, just to say "oh yah I agree, those are non-Armenian names"? :eek:

I think the most puzzling thing about you for me is that you sometimes show signs of intelligence but your thinking is so complex, your thought process is so convoluted, that you often jump several steps back and forth, combine 100 topics into a complex unsolvable and unspecifiable garbage-mix, and then get so pissed off and unhappy that your only natural discourse is to have a repeating textual insult-diahrrea fest.

zourna

08-01-2007, 02:54 PM

First off I appreciate your effort, though I find it hard to chew on. I'm more confused than ever! :)
However, your rhetoric regarding the connotation in Hebrew is rather amusing! "Behold the son!" I pretty much like it.. I knew it has something big to it otherwise why name me Roupen?! (haunts me, as remains permanently :)
By the way I can hardly think of a better method.. I provide you with a name, you do your magic! as long as we're getting results, it's all about collaboration isn't it?! ;)

Data entry: VRAM (my brother's name)
Hints: Vram Shabouh
Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa just kidding mate! I'll do my research and get back to you...

Keep it clean guys!

Siamanto

08-01-2007, 05:42 PM

1 of 2

Two preliminary comments:
1. I have noticed that you have started to appreciate the importance of the usage of a word, besides and regardless of it's origins

I have appreciated the importance of the usage of a name, unless names such as Jean, Jacques, Joe, Jack, etc. which are clearly non-Armenian, widely used by non-Armenians and most times limited to a specific community.

Maybe I was mislead by your initial comment on 4: "Widely used or rarely used, is not a good criterion to start with" and other similar comments regarding 6? :)

Also, you seem to appreciate it in a quite selective manner and based on your personal preferences; honestly, some Armenians - who may be as knowledgeable of our culture and as patriotic as we are - may consider "Vladimir," Igor," Christian," "Armand," "Pierre," "Peter," "Paul," "Patrick" etc." more appropriate for Armenians and better fit to be included in a dictionary than "Arbi," "Narbe," "Seroj," "Arabo" etc." Let's keep in mind the nature of our nation and history and be as open minded and inclusive as possible; at least, initially - we can always prune later.
Also, I won't be surprised to learn that more Armenians would feel more comfortable with "Vladimir," Igor," Christian," "Armand," "Pierre," "Peter," "Paul," "Patrick" etc." than "Arbi," "Narbe," "Seroj," "Arabo" etc." and inter-subjectivity is a better ersatz of objectivity than subjectivity is???

The point is that the importance of the usage of words, should be appreciated regardless of its origin(s) and/or other factors.

What's more, including these names in a dictionary favours their usage and could make them more spread.

A dictionary is not a "patriotic manifesto" or a national planning tool; let's set aside - as much as it is humanly possible - our feelings and preferences.

2. You continue to give too much imortance to certain lexical or phonetic differences, specially when different languages, regions and periods are considered.
As a Diasporan Armenian you have probably had the opportunity to witness all the many ways Armenian First Names can be transliterated, transformed and "butchered."

I see what you mean but the opposite could also be true; sometimes the smallest lexical or phonetic change could make difference.

Yes, in principle; however, I had in mind specific examples that did not seem meaningful enough.
For the record, they included
1. 'f' or 'ff' in "Raffi/Rafi" when it's about a loaned word that is also used in so many cultures and when both exist in nature, here and there
2. 'Ռ' or 'Ր' in "Raffi" when it's about a loaned word that is also used in so many cultures and some think that the novelist changed his pen name to 'Ր' - even if that is not established yet
3. The Iranian 'a'
4. The "nuances" that you seem to see in "Ռաֆիը" or "Ռաֆիի" when such regional/dialectal differences are common. I suggest that you take a look at this link (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Rafi) and compare all the "related" versions of the name - even if there may be inaccuracies
5. "Serj" and "Seroj" when the 'o' could have been so naturally added because vowels are often implicit in Farsi
6.....

1. Just curious, what do you exactly mean by "independently?" Does it mean that their Birth Certificate says "Sako" instead of "Sarkis?" If yes, to what percentage of cases does it apply? According to my experience, a person called "Sako" in life, is called "Sarkis" on the Birth Certificate and a person called "Artin," "Haroutioun." Of course, there may be exceptions, but how often does it occur?

2. As you can tell from the above that "among senior Armenians" was applied only to "Artin." I don't know how it is in Iran, but I don't know if the younger generations use "Artin" for "Haroutioun."
Are you saying that young Armenians call a Harout "Artin" and/or have "Artin" - as First Name - on their Birth Certificate?

Yes, especially 'Artins' and 'Arutins', they are mentioned on the birth certificate instead of Haroutioun. It is common among the younger generations.

Thanks! That's good to know.

Why not? It's nothing unusual, even in a regular dictionary, because a dictionary is not only about the meaning or origin of a word, it's also about the usage of a word.
How is it possible? That is a simple technical detail. What is the challenge?

I mean names, for instance; used frequently, moderately, rarely then there are some cases which would fit somewhere between…and the latter seems to be a problem.

1. I know that you mean names

2. I don't understand why it is a challenge to classify the different usage frequencies using a set of predefined classes.
For instance, they can be classified either in a free style manner or in a more consistent and uniform manner using the "pattern" <Frequency><Time><Location>; where

The field <Frequency> can be either
1. Never used
2. Hardly used
3. Fairly used
4. Frequently used or poupular
5. Very frequently used or very popular

The field <Time> cab be either
1. In the past
2. In the present
3. <A certain period>
4. <A range of years>
5.....

The field <Location> can be either
1. A country
2. A region
3. A community
4.....
And if the above can be modified, refined or...if is not accurate enough or two detailed.

<Frequency><Time><Location> seems to more than enough. Am I missing something???

1. I would not discard those cases that easily, as they are, from a usage point of view, much less "small cases" than "Siamanto" because it's more likely to meet an Armenian bearing one of the above mentioned names.

2. "How many French [or Russian, American, Iranian etc.] names should be included to cover the many French Armenians who often use French names?" The answer was already suggested i.e.
" Of course, if included, it should mention the origin and may only include the most frequent ones - for practical reasons.'

I don't agree on this and I have already said why.

LOL I still don't know how to understand your appreciation of usage regardless of the origin???? You apply it when it pleases you??? :)

LOL because "Arbi" is "Armenian( as a word?)" :)
On a more serious not, Sebastia was a historic Armenian city and Sebastopol is located in a region called "Maritime Armenia" - so the point was that "Sebastian" may have an Armenian origin; yet, it's more commonly used among non-Armenians.
Do you remember your comments about "Arbi" being more widely used among Armenians than other Iranians? :)

What?? Iranians??? I said Arbi is not common among non-Armenians, including Iranians. :)

LOL Is "Arbi" used outside of Iran? Would it make a difference?

However, if it will make you happier than I'll correct myself and say
"Do you remember your comments about 'Arbi' being more widely used among Armenians than other Iranians? "

Better? :)

Siamanto

08-01-2007, 06:00 PM

2 of 2

LOL But you're seeing either blurry or magnified. :)
1. I don't understand your statement "however there is a common surname" when I gave examples of "Raffi" and "Rafi" used not only as a surname but also as a First Name; I even organized them to make it more obvious????

LOL, none but you are definitely seeing blurry. The Persian Rafii today is uniquely used as a surname not a first name that's why I said 'however', in other words, you can't find 'arti Parsiks' named Raffi, also contrary to what Shirak's dictionary says. See my explanation on the links.
By the way, you are always organized and I appreciate it.

Thanks for commenting the links; but, I'm afraid to say that - with the exception of Raffi Kirdi - your comments fail to explain or convince - please see details below - and I will continue to consider the statement "'Raffi/Rafi' was used among Iranians in the past and in the present" as not invalidated.
By the way, I have come across documents that suggest that "Rafi" was used in India and "Raffi" in Italy. I will come back to it when I find the time to verify it a bit further. I got a confirmation for "Raffi" being used among Italians - both in Italy and the US; but, I will look for publicly available documents.

I'm keeping an open mind and it seems to me that the usage of "Rafi/Raffi" is wide spread in space and time???

2. LOL *stares at you and smiles about the 'ը '* What makes you think that Armenians did not drop the 'ը' as well as some? What makes you think that Iranians did not add the 'ը'? Have you heard of the expression "You say tomato, I say tomahto?" [smiley]

Armenians or Raffi, the novelist??
The Iranians have not added anything since the word itself is Persian.

1. My focus is the Armenians and I don't consider the novelist when I'm focusing on "Rafi/Raffi"
2. No, it seems to be an Arabic word. So, yes, Iranians could have added the 'ը.'

Similar differences in pronunciation exist between different regions and communities speaking the same language. Simply compare how Armenians from Iran pronounce the vowels in Armenian to - for instance - Armenians speaking Western Armenians. I'm not even talking about regional dialects.
By the way, for my ears, compared to other Armenians, Armenians from Iran, pronounce the 'ա' differently in every word.

If I'm not mistaken you mean; they sometimes replace the Armenian 'ա' by the English 'a' as in 'sad', right? It's a Persian influence.

I know that it's the Persian accent; I just meant to say: "The fact that 'a' is pronounced in a certain way in "Ռաֆիը " or "Ռաֆիի" does not mean much."

3. Can you please explain in what sense the links are not "accurate" - so I can look for more "accurate" ones - because your explanation above was nowhere near convincing? Thanks.

As I see it, "Rafi/Raffi" was used among Iranians, in the past and the present.

Rafi
Past: Rafi ibn Harthama (http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-489472/Rafi-ibn-Harthama)

His name is 'Rafiebn' and clearly Arabic, even if anything, he is not an arti Parsik anyway.

First of all, thank you for commenting the links, LOL was it that hard? :)

1. LOL Now, that is funny! What did you do with the space??? The name is "Rafi" and "ibn/ebn" - common in Arabic names - means son. The fact that the name is Arabic puzzled me as well, but it clearly says "Iranian Rebel" and, to verify, I have checked other documents; one of them suggests that he, at one point, seemingly was in Northern Iran.
The homeland of the Buyids was Daylam, in the Gilan uplands in northern Iran. There, at the end of the 9th century, hardy valley dwellers had been stirred into martial activity by a number of factors, among them the rebel Rafi' ibn Harthama's attempt to penetrate the region, ostensibly with Samanid support. (https://edit.britannica.com/getEditableToc?tocId=32168)

So even if Britannica is wrong about him being Iranian, the above suggests that individuals named "Rafi" were present in northern Iran, long time ago.

2. LOL I know that he's not a present day Barsig, considering that I explicitly said "Past" :) , I meant to suggest that it was also used in the past. LOL Maybe, you're focusing too much on Shirak's "arti Barsig." :)

Present: Rafi Pitts (http://www.iranian.com/PhotoDay/2007/February/pitts.html) or Raffi Pitts :) (http://www.dvdoutsider.co.uk/dvd/reviews/i/its_winter.html)

He is not Iranian but xxxish so most probably his name his Rafael.

LOL Where did you see that? I kept an open mind and looked for documents that indicates his J-e-w-ish faith. In every document that I have checked, he's presented as an Iranian. Of course, he may be of J-e-wish faith, but can you please support your claim? Thanks!

Raffi:
Now: Raffi Kirdi (http://www.polarisimages.com/Portfolios/Photographers/Raffi_Kirdi/)

Where does it suggest that the guy is Persian?? :confused: Furthermore, the guy simply cannot be Persian since the word "kir" in his surname refers to male's private parts in Persian.

LOL I have no idea why I have added him because LOL the link clearly says "Raffi Kirdi was born in Beirut, Lebanon?????" Thanks!

By the way, why can't it be Persian? "Kirdi" probably means Kurd???
Also, have you head of "Bullugian?" How about D.i.c.k Cheney??

For the record, I found:
My 98-year old Grandfather asked me to find a way to contact you. Lucky for both of us, Raffi Kirdi was able to help us out. My grandfather escaped the Armenian genocide as a youngster, has resided in France for 16 years before settling in Aleppo. (http://www.robert-fisk.com/your_views_feb2003.htm)

Last Name: Ali Raffi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_Iran)

Yes, here this is correct, Rafii as a surname pronounced as something like Ռաֆիը or Ռաֆիի. In your previous posts, when you quoted "One last detail, it says - in the Armenian section of the dictionary - "Raffi anoun@ g@ kordzadzen arti Barsignern al." Is that true?" from Shirak's dictionary, I was thinking of first names in Persian but didn't find anything matching Raffi since it doesn't exist but when I saw the Ali Rafii (a 'familiar' name in the Iranian cinema) the penny dropped.

1. As for the phonetic/lexical aspects, I have already expressed my views in a previous reply
2. As for the "Rafi/Raffi" as a first name please see my reply to your comments about "Rafi/Raffi Pitts" and "Rafi Ibn Harthama" above

But honestly the pronounciation was so different that it could never cross my mind, especially that a letter is dropped in the Armenian version and the two others ( 'r' and 'a') are pronounced differentely.

I can understand, it happens.

What do you mean by "seems to me far from our 'Րաֆֆի?'" LOL *hopes that you don't mean physically* :)
What is your point?

LOL, no I meant from a lexical and phonetic point of view, as I have explained how.

LOL How did you explain? If you mean the usage of 'Ր,' then shouldn't you provide a plausible reply to Shirak's claim that he changed it to 'Ր???'

It can also be that "Raffi" has two origins i.e.
1. A Perso-Arabic origin
2. A diminutive of "Rafael/Rapael" that may or may not have initially been "Rafi/Rapi"
At times, usage and time erode differences and creates "confusion" or add "noise" to create differences.
That's my inclination, but we don't know yet.

Considering that he was a Persian-Armenian, the first option is something to think about.

Do you have in mind the novelist? Personally, my focus is the etymology of the First Name "Rafi/Raffi" and, at this point, I don't care why the novelist chose "Raffi" as his pen name.

In any case:
1. J-e-ws have been in Persia, Iraq and Armenia long before the Arabs so it could have been "Perso-J-e-w-ish."
2. Are you trying to say that Raffi's world was confined to where he was born? I hope that he was not that narrow minded. :)
3. In general, but it may not apply to the novelist, do you think that people are/were aware that "Rafi/Raffi" may have two - or many - different origins; or based on where they live, one origin takes precedence???

According to Shirak's dictionary - and it insists - the late writer changed B]Ռ[/B]աֆֆի to Րաֆֆի.
Is that impossible? Do you have data to disprove it? It would be nice to find a biographical document about Raffi, the novelist, that addresses this issue.

LOL, it gets more confusing. I never knew he has changed the Ռ to Ր…

I dug out some old books and read up on his biography but found nothing worthy of mentioning, regarding his pen name. Also, I came across this detailed biography of Raffi (http://groong.usc.edu/tcc/tcc-20021209.html) on the net; although it does not give much information about his pen name but it's worth reading, it was touching…

1. Shirak may or may not be accurate; but, I have mentioned it earlier; in post #10 for the first time.

2. Thanks for the document, it looks quite detailed; I'll read it more carefully when I find the time.

LOL *stares at you and smiles* But in "Seroj" there exists a vowel between 'r' and 'j' that was probably added because because vowels in Farsi may not be explicit???

Sometimes, vowels are not explicit in Farsi. So what? First off, there is no vowel in Serj between 'r' and 'j', and then why add one to make 'Seroj'??
LOL OK If you are not convinced that the 'o' in "Seroj" could have been naturally added to "Serj" because vowels are often implicit in Farsi where "Serj" and "Seroj" are commonly written in the same way in Farsi; then please suggest an etymology/origin.

I'm not even suggesting less obvious - yet possible - transformations such as "Arab" = "Arabo" = "Arabi" = "Arbi" because vowels are often left implicit in Farsi.

Lucin

08-05-2007, 09:10 AM

1 of 2

Maybe I was mislead by your initial comment on 4: "Widely used or rarely used, is not a good criterion to start with" and other similar comments regarding 6? :)

Also, you seem to appreciate it in a quite selective manner and based on your personal preferences; honestly, some Armenians - who may be as knowledgeable of our culture and as patriotic as we are - may consider "Vladimir," Igor," Christian," "Armand," "Pierre," "Peter," "Paul," "Patrick" etc." more appropriate for Armenians and better fit to be included in a dictionary than "Arbi," "Narbe," "Seroj," "Arabo" etc." Let's keep in mind the nature of our nation and history and be as open minded and inclusive as possible; at least, initially - we can always prune later.
Also, I won't be surprised to learn that more Armenians would feel more comfortable with "Vladimir," Igor," Christian," "Armand," "Pierre," "Peter," "Paul," "Patrick" etc." than "Arbi," "Narbe," "Seroj," "Arabo" etc." and inter-subjectivity is a better ersatz of objectivity than subjectivity is???

The point is that the importance of the usage of words, should be appreciated regardless of its origin(s) and/or other factors.

It's not a matter of being open-minded; I'm afraid that by including all these English, Irish, Russian or French names, the dictionary would turn into a "first names' dictionary".
How do you know that your suggestion is intersubjective and mine not?? Have you taken a census? :)
But to avoid confusion and in order to be more accurate, names such as Arbi, Arabo and etc-exclusively used by Persian Armenians- could be excluded as well as Vladimirs, Joes and Michels…

4. The "nuances" that you seem to see in "Ռաֆիը" or "Ռաֆիի" when such regional/dialectal differences are common. I suggest that you take a look at this link and compare all the "related" versions of the name - even if there may be inaccuracies

Although there were some inaccuracies but I was surprised to see Rafi used in Britain, US, or Canada… could they be Arab immigrants??

1. I know that you mean names

2. I don't understand why it is a challenge to classify the different usage frequencies using a set of predefined classes.
For instance, they can be classified either in a free style manner or in a more consistent and uniform manner using the "pattern" <Frequency><Time><Location>; where

The field <Frequency> can be either
1. Never used
2. Hardly used
3. Fairly used
4. Frequently used or poupular
5. Very frequently used or very popular

The field <Time> cab be either
1. In the past
2. In the present
3. <A certain period>
4. <A range of years>
5.....

The field <Location> can be either
1. A country
2. A region
3. A community
4.....
And if the above can be modified, refined or...if is not accurate enough or two detailed.

<Frequency><Time><Location> seems to more than enough. Am I missing something???

Go ahead Siamanto, write a dictionary. By the way which names are never used?? Siamanto?? :)

LOL Is "Arbi" used outside of Iran? Would it make a difference?

However, if it will make you happier than I'll correct myself and say
"Do you remember your comments about 'Arbi' being more widely used among Armenians than other Iranians? "

Better? :)

LOL, the whole point was that Arbi is not used by Iranians or others at all.

2 of 2

1. My focus is the Armenians and I don't consider the novelist when I'm focusing on "Rafi/Raffi"
2. No, it seems to be an Arabic word. So, yes, Iranians could have added the 'ը.'

1. Yes.
2. Precisely.

First of all, thank you for commenting the links, LOL was it that hard? :)

1. LOL Now, that is funny! What did you do with the space??? The name is "Rafi" and "ibn/ebn" - common in Arabic names - means son. The fact that the name is Arabic puzzled me as well, but it clearly says "Iranian Rebel" and, to verify, I have checked other documents; one of them suggests that he, at one point, seemingly was in Northern Iran.
The homeland of the Buyids was Daylam, in the Gilan uplands in northern Iran. There, at the end of the 9th century, hardy valley dwellers had been stirred into martial activity by a number of factors, among them the rebel Rafi' ibn Harthama's attempt to penetrate the region, ostensibly with Samanid support. (https://edit.britannica.com/getEditableToc?tocId=32168)

So even if Britannica is wrong about him being Iranian, the above suggests that individuals named "Rafi" were present in northern Iran, long time ago.

1. Why is it funny?? The space is put while transliterated in Latin but while written in Persian letters it is read together, but it doesn't make a difference with or without space.

LOL Where did you see that? I kept an open mind and looked for documents that indicates his J-e-w-ish faith. In every document that I have checked, he's presented as an Iranian. Of course, he may be of J-e-wish faith, but can you please support your claim? Thanks!

I could not find any documents on the net, suggesting that he is of J.ewish faith but the fact that he is not being talked about in the Iranian media and also his English surname- considering that the Iranian J.ews usually change their Persian surnames after leaving the country- make me believe that he is a J.ew. But I'll try to look for other sources.

Rafi may have been used among the Iranians in the past (as we have only one example) but today it is not common; say to an Iranian that your name is Rafi (Ռաֆիը) and see the reaction.

LOL I have no idea why I have added him because LOL the link clearly says "Raffi Kirdi was born in Beirut, Lebanon?????" Thanks!

By the way, why can't it be Persian? "Kirdi" probably means Kurd???
Also, have you head of "Bullugian?" How about D.i.c.k Cheney??

For the record, I found:
My 98-year old Grandfather asked me to find a way to contact you. Lucky for both of us, Raffi Kirdi was able to help us out. My grandfather escaped the Armenian genocide as a youngster, has resided in France for 16 years before settling in Aleppo. (http://www.robert-fisk.com/your_views_feb2003.htm)

LOL, kirdi doesn't probably mean 'kurd' in Persian. 'Kord' is the Persian word for 'Kurd'. And for the record again it doesn't say he was Persian, but I think you already know that.

Take into consideration the cultural and social differences between different peoples. As I can see in American culture some expressions and words related to private parts- like the d.ick you mentioned are used easily but in others such as Persian culture, never; to the point where they often pronounce a foreign word or a name containing those words in a distorted manner.

LOL How did you explain? If you mean the usage of 'Ր,' then shouldn't you provide a plausible reply to Shirak's claim that he changed it to 'Ր???'

As one letter is dropped (ը or ի) in the Armenian version and the other two (ա and ր) are pronounced differently.

Do you have in mind the novelist? Personally, my focus is the etymology of the First Name "Rafi/Raffi" and, at this point, I don't care why the novelist chose "Raffi" as his pen name.

In any case:
1. J-e-ws have been in Persia, Iraq and Armenia long before the Arabs so it could have been "Perso-J-e-w-ish."
2. Are you trying to say that Raffi's world was confined to where he was born? I hope that he was not that narrow minded. :)
3. In general, but it may not apply to the novelist, do you think that people are/were aware that "Rafi/Raffi" may have two - or many - different origins; or based on where they live, one origin takes precedence???

1. Yes, but the influence that the Moslem Arabs have left on Iran is much bigger than that of J.ews. However both peoples are considered Semites and definitely do have certain things in common.

2. Being influenced by some regional or environmental elements is not a sign of "narrow-mindedness", it's just natural and sometimes inevitable.

3.As I said the regional influence could be normal and take precedence but again it's just a speculation.

LOL OK If you are not convinced that the 'o' in "Seroj" could have been naturally added to "Serj" because vowels are often implicit in Farsi where "Serj" and "Seroj" are commonly written in the same way in Farsi; then please suggest an etymology/origin.

I have already said that 'Seroj' is another version of 'Serj'. As for why the 'o' has been added; my guess is; to facilitate the pronounciation in Persian.

karoaper

08-05-2007, 01:15 PM

Seroj is from the Russian Seriozha, which is a diminutive of Sergey, as is Serj.

Siamanto

08-05-2007, 04:46 PM

MILENA AND NAREK ARE THE MOST POPULAR NAMES IN ARMENIA

armradio.am
03.08.2007 15:58

7,056 girls and 8,039 boys we[r]e born in Armenia in January-May of the
current year.

According to statistics, more frequently girls are named Milena (323),
Ani (266), Mariam (237), Elen (217), Anahit (210), Anna (187), Mary
(184), Lilit (159), Mane (135) and Gayane (134).

Boys are often named Narek (349), David (339), Hayk (263), Erik
(237), Gor (223), Arman (205), Armen (173), Arthur (168), Samvel
(161) and Vahe (150).

http://www.armradio.am/news/?part=soc&id=10380

Siamanto

08-06-2007, 07:07 PM

Does this mean you now think Siamanto is an Armenian male name or not? :confused:
The question is rather simple and I just can't understand the need for these long and boring posts with all these various bullets and numbers and bolds and such.. It's a simple yes/no type of question. As to why I focus on this issue, why not? If you won't directly admit you were wrong on this very basic issue, what chance is there to discuss ANYTHING with you? Just to break it down for your highness, sometimes the "keep it simple, stupid" principle is a very good one (resolve one issue before introducing 100 others to cover the first). :D
Your question has been already answered, if you don't have the necessary reading skills and intellectual capabilities then this thread is not for you; maybe, you should stay among your intellectual peers such as jurks and turds.
As a matter of fact, this is not an appropriate thread for those like who enjoy blowing hot air and I assure you that you won't be missed.
I believe that the answer to your "rather simple" question was simple enough! :)

Why must everything always be so "adversarial" with you. Sound to me you agree with the premise of what I have said so what's with the on going insults? Wouldn't it have been soooo hard to instead of writing all that garbage, just to say "oh yah I agree, those are non-Armenian names"? :eek:

Considering the records, I find it a bit amusing - not to say dishonest, hypocritical and dumb - your choice of the word "adversarial." Did you expect flowers? In any case, what happened to your bravado, Katchn Nazar? Another commonality between you and jurks?

Furthermore, the above suggests that, as usual, you were unable to understand simple statements. Maybe, instead of blowing hot air 24/7 on the Web, you should spend some time improving your reading and intellectual skills.

I think the most puzzling thing about you for me is that you sometimes show signs of intelligence but your thinking is so complex, your thought process is so convoluted, that you often jump several steps back and forth, combine 100 topics into a complex unsolvable and unspecifiable garbage-mix, and then get so pissed off and unhappy that your only natural discourse is to have a repeating textual insult-diahrrea fest.
As I have said earlier, if you lack the required intellectual capabilities, then you should stay among your mental peers that are the jurks and turds.

Siamanto

08-06-2007, 07:09 PM

First off I appreciate your effort, though I find it hard to chew on.

You're welcome! That's because you did not cook it with your own sauce. :)

I'm more confused than ever! :)

It's always darkest before the dawn???

However, your rhetoric regarding the connotation in Hebrew is rather amusing! "Behold the son!" I pretty much like it.. I knew it has something big to it otherwise why name me Roupen?! (haunts me, as remains permanently :)

For the record, it's not "my rhetoric;" every other source that I have checked suggests the "same." It would take you at most 2-3 minutes to google "ruben first name meaning" and check the first link of the resultset - and maybe a couple of the suggested link on that page???

By the way I can hardly think of a better method.. I provide you with a name, you do your magic! as long as we're getting results, it's all about collaboration isn't it?! ;)

LOL No problem, I can think of one! :)
By the way, is this the kind of collaboration where one cuts the onions and the other cries as a sign of sympathy? :)

Data entry: VRAM (my brother's name)
Hints: Vram Shabouh
Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa just kidding mate! I'll do my research and get back to you...

Thank you for your request and we sincerely appreciate your collaboration. Unfortunately, your request has been rejected by our system and we are unable to process it at this time. Please correct the following error(s) and resubmit your request. We apologize for the inconvenience.
List of error(s:)

"(Data Entry Error 1145) Field with invalid data:
The field "User Collaboration" has invalid data, please enter valid data before resubmitting your request"

For further assistance, please consult our extensive and easy to use Knowledge Base (http://www.google.com)
We are pleased to serve you.

Keep it clean guys!
Manure helps flowers grow gracefully....Isn't that ironic? However, too much of it stinks...and may hurt the flower? =(

Lucin

08-07-2007, 09:14 AM

Seroj is from the Russian Seriozha, which is a diminutive of Sergey, as is Serj.

Interesting... 'Seroj' is a common name among Iranian-Armenians; I wonder if it is used by Russian-Armenians as well?

Siamanto

08-07-2007, 08:16 PM

Seroj is from the Russian Seriozha, which is a diminutive of Sergey, as is Serj.
Thanks for the input. Can you please provide some data or explanation to support the above? I did not find any.
Also, how about a more moderate and cautious "can be" instead of the categorical "is?"

Interesting... 'Seroj' is a common name among Iranian-Armenians; I wonder if it is used by Russian-Armenians as well?
I asked myself the same question; but, I also considered the fact that, in the past, what has become present day Armenia has been ruled by the Persians.

Lucin

08-09-2007, 06:49 AM

Siamanto

08-09-2007, 10:01 AM

I asked myself the same question; but, I also considered the fact that, in the past, what has become present day Armenia has been ruled by the Persians.
Yes, Armenia has been ruled by Persians in the past and certainly influenced to a degree. But not everything can be attributed to the Persian influence.

Of course, it cannot; I was simply inviting the reader to also consider other relevant aspects of it. :)

As for 'Seroj', being a diminutive of Seriozha ( as Karoaper said), it seems logical to me; and so the Iranification would be refuted.

It's not more or less "logical" than the "Iranification" of "Serj." For now, there is no data that corroborates the hypothesis that "Seroj" may be - not "is" as karoaper stated - "from the Russian Seriozha" - karoaper did not use "diminutive" - and I hope that karoaper will present some data and/or explanation to support his hypothesis. A hypothesis, not supported with data and/or explanation is of little use.

As I have said earlier, if you lack the required intellectual capabilities, then you should stay among your mental peers that are the jurks and turds.

Siamanto,
I believe you are being harsh on Sip...

If "calling a spade a spade" is being harsh then, in some cases, I don't mind being harsh and he couldn't have expected flowers. I chose not to make extra efforts with bullies and asses.
Was I unfair? Considering his behavior, the content of his PMs and posts - here or elsewhere - some may think that I was more than fair.

In any case, I would be the last one to complain and the first one to welcome if he proved me wrong with deeds, not claims; however, I won't be holding my breath.

P.S. LOL Almost done with my reply to your other post???

karoaper

08-09-2007, 03:05 PM

Siamanto

08-09-2007, 04:31 PM

1 of 2

I will start my post with a possible explanation of the origin of "Raffi," the novelist's pen name.
According to the following biography of Raffi, mentioned earlier by Lucin: (http://groong.usc.edu/tcc/tcc-20021209.html)
on January 20, 1872 began the publication of "On Mr. Alexander Raffi's Travels In Persia". This would be Hagop-Melikian's first use of the pen name "Raffi".

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the above mentioned work; but, would it be unrealistic to consider or see in the novelist's "Mr. Alexander Raffi" a reference to Alexander Raphael, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Raphael) the "first British-Armenian to serve in the House of Commons of the United Kingdom?"

If the above interpretation is true, than it suggests that
1. Either the British-Armenian was also - maybe commonly??? - known as Alexander Raffi and/or "Raffi" was already used as a diminutive of "Raphael."
2. The pen name is a diminutive of "Raphael" and not the Perso-Arabic "Rafi/Rafik." Actually, the biography suggests that Raffi had no or little interest in the Perso-Arabic cultural world????

The above interpretation is made more credible considering that in the past, "Rafi/Raffi" was apparently used anywhere from Southern Europe to India. Furthermore, it seems that it was used
1. In the "West" - Italy, Spain??? J.e.ws... - as the diminutive of "Raphael???"
2. In the "East" - Arab World, Iran, India... - as derived from the Arabic First Name???

Siamanto

08-09-2007, 04:32 PM

2 of 2

Maybe I was mislead by your initial comment on 4: "Widely used or rarely used, is not a good criterion to start with" and other similar comments regarding 6?

Also, you seem to appreciate it in a quite selective manner and based on your personal preferences; honestly, some Armenians - who may be as knowledgeable of our culture and as patriotic as we are - may consider "Vladimir," Igor," Christian," "Armand," "Pierre," "Peter," "Paul," "Patrick" etc." more appropriate for Armenians and better fit to be included in a dictionary than "Arbi," "Narbe," "Seroj," "Arabo" etc." Let's keep in mind the nature of our nation and history and be as open minded and inclusive as possible; at least, initially - we can always prune later.
Also, I won't be surprised to learn that more Armenians would feel more comfortable with "Vladimir," Igor," Christian," "Armand," "Pierre," "Peter," "Paul," "Patrick" etc." than "Arbi," "Narbe," "Seroj," "Arabo" etc." and inter-subjectivity is a better ersatz of objectivity than subjectivity is???

The point is that the importance of the usage of words, should be appreciated regardless of its origin(s) and/or other factors.

It's not a matter of being open-minded; I'm afraid that by including all these English, Irish, Russian or French names, the dictionary would turn into a "first names' dictionary".
How do you know that your suggestion is intersubjective and mine not?? Have you taken a census?
But to avoid confusion and in order to be more accurate, names such as Arbi, Arabo and etc-exclusively used by Persian Armenians- could be excluded as well as Vladimirs, Joes and Michels…

1. First of all, at no point, I was opposing my suggestion to yours; I'm sorry if you felt it that way. I was simply reminding you that others - not necessarily me - may see it differently; in fact, I said:
"some Armenians - who may be as knowledgeable of our culture and as patriotic as we are - may consider 'Vladimir,'...
"I won't be surprised to learn that more Armenians would feel more comfortable with 'Vladimir'..."
In fact
1.1 Names like "Vladimir," "Patrick," "Armand" are included in the existing dictionaries; while "Arbi," "Arabo," "Seroj" are not. Furthermore, "Patrick" that you seem to perceive as an Irish First Name was, apparently, the name of a IX Century Armenian prince i.e. Patrig Antsevatsi.
1.2 According to armradio.am - see post above - "Arman[d]" is a popular name
1.3....

2. Second of all, more than once, I suggested to include both lists - at least, initially. I don't think that many "non Armenian" First Names will be included; in fact, it would be easy to limit to the most common ones

3. Also, for the record
3.1 This is the first time that you suggest to exclude those names that you have presented as "Armenian."
3.2 The focus was point 6 of post #10 i.e. foreign First Names used by Armenians

P.S. By the way, Monique Ekmekdjian, the author of the dictionary in French (http://www.acam-france.org/bibliographie/auteur.php?cle=ekmekdjian-monique) seems to be a "purist", "selective" or "conservative" like you??? I'm probably a bit more inclusive.

4. The "nuances" that you seem to see in "Ռաֆիը" or "Ռաֆիի" when such regional/dialectal differences are common. I suggest that you take a look at this link and compare all the "related" versions of the name - even if there may be inaccuracies
Although there were some inaccuracies but I was surprised to see Rafi used in Britain, US, or Canada… could they be Arab immigrants??

I'm not sure what you mean???
First of all, a word or a name can be transliterated in a different language even when the object/person is physically absent.
Second of all, why not Iranian immigrants? J.e.wish? etc. It seems that "Rafi/Raffi" is and was used from Italy to India???
Besides the Perso-Arabic "usage/trace" there seems to be also the Judeo-Christian "usage/trace" of "Raffi/Raffi."

1. I know that you mean names

2. I don't understand why it is a challenge to classify the different usage frequencies using a set of predefined classes.
For instance, they can be classified either in a free style manner or in a more consistent and uniform manner using the "pattern" <Frequency><Time><Location>; where

The field <Frequency> can be either
1. Never used
2. Hardly used
3. Fairly used
4. Frequently used or poupular
5. Very frequently used or very popular

The field <Time> cab be either
1. In the past
2. In the present
3. <A certain period>
4. <A range of years>
5.....

The field <Location> can be either
1. A country
2. A region
3. A community
4.....
And if the above can be modified, refined or...if is not accurate enough or two detailed.

<Frequency><Time><Location> seems to more than enough. Am I missing something???
Go ahead Siamanto, write a dictionary. By the way which names are never used?? Siamanto??

First of all, I hope that the above is just a silly joke and you don't have, like Sip, a fixation on "Siamanto????" :)

Second of all, LOL why would I write a dictionary when my views - contrary to yours - are aligned with the existing "status quo?" LOL I thought that it was your goal to "correct" the situation and make of "Siamanto" a full fledged Armenian First Name. :)

Most of all, I was simply trying to help you understand/solve a very simply technical problem - you seemed to insist. :) *points to the previous posts*

LOL Is "Arbi" used outside of Iran? Would it make a difference?

However, if it will make you happier than I'll correct myself and say
"Do you remember your comments about 'Arbi' being more widely used among Armenians than other Iranians? "

Better?

LOL, the whole point was that Arbi is not used by Iranians or others at all.

Yes, and as long as it is not used among non-Iranians it would make no difference. Would it? :)

First of all, thank you for commenting the links, LOL was it that hard?

1. LOL Now, that is funny! What did you do with the space??? The name is "Rafi" and "ibn/ebn" - common in Arabic names - means son. The fact that the name is Arabic puzzled me as well, but it clearly says "Iranian Rebel" and, to verify, I have checked other documents; one of them suggests that he, at one point, seemingly was in Northern Iran.
The homeland of the Buyids was Daylam, in the Gilan uplands in northern Iran. There, at the end of the 9th century, hardy valley dwellers had been stirred into martial activity by a number of factors, among them the rebel Rafi' ibn Harthama's attempt to penetrate the region, ostensibly with Samanid support.

So even if Britannica is wrong about him being Iranian, the above suggests that individuals named "Rafi" were present in northern Iran, long time ago.
1. Why is it funny?? The space is put while transliterated in Latin but while written in Persian letters it is read together, but it doesn't make a difference with or without space.

Yes, it is funny because there is a space that separates the First Name from "ibn/ebn" that is part of the Last Name. It's as funny as considering "Petervon" as the First Name in "Peter Von Neuman." :) It's well known that in Arabic "ibn" is not part of the First Name.
By the way, the following document (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Rustah) suggests that there's a clear separation between "ebn" and the First Name, even in Farsi?? :)

LOL Where did you see that? I kept an open mind and looked for documents that indicates his J-e-w-ish faith. In every document that I have checked, he's presented as an Iranian. Of course, he may be of J-e-wish faith, but can you please support your claim? Thanks!
I could not find any documents on the net, suggesting that he is of J.ewish faith but the fact that he is not being talked about in the Iranian media and also his English surname- considering that the Iranian J.ews usually change their Persian surnames after leaving the country- make me believe that he is a J.ew. But I'll try to look for other sources.

LOL Good Luck! In the meantime, he'll be considered Iranian as the documents suggest.
For the record, I know an Iranian Armenian family with a Scottish??? Last Name - a great grandfather was from Scotland and mixed with the local Armenians.

Rafi may have been used among the Iranians in the past (as we have only one example) but today it is not common;

Did anybody say that the usage is common? The existence has been established and that's all it matters.
Realistically, how many documents would you expect to find - online or in archives - about historical personalities individuals with a given name?
We may never be able to tell how common it was???

say to an Iranian that your name is Rafi (Ռաֆիը) and see the reaction.

LOL What's the point? The same applies to any name said with an accent or in an unfamiliar way in any part of the world?
LOL Lucin, you need to travel and be confronted with lexical/phonetic/....differences and/or variations.

LOL I have no idea why I have added him because LOL the link clearly says "Raffi Kirdi was born in Beirut, Lebanon?????" Thanks!

By the way, why can't it be Persian? "Kirdi" probably means Kurd???
Also, have you head of "Bullugian?" How about D.i.c.k Cheney??

For the record, I found:
My 98-year old Grandfather asked me to find a way to contact you. Lucky for both of us, Raffi Kirdi was able to help us out. My grandfather escaped the Armenian genocide as a youngster, has resided in France for 16 years before settling in Aleppo.
LOL, kirdi doesn't probably mean 'kurd' in Persian. 'Kord' is the Persian word for 'Kurd'. And for the record again it doesn't say he was Persian, but I think you already know that.

I'm sorry that you have misunderstood, but I did not say that "Kirdi" means Kurd in Persian.
LOL To make it simple
1. Look at the map of the region
2. Localize the areas where Kurds have lived and/or were present
3. Make a list of all the languages spoken in those areas
4. Consider the word that means Kurd in those languages. You can ask your Arabic teacher for Arabic - I'm told it is "Krdi/Kirdi" - and for jurkish google "kirdi/kurd/kurt" or check this page: What are Kurds Called? (http://www.aliraqi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=46019)

LOL Always, keep in mind slight phonetic/lexical variations???

Take into consideration the cultural and social differences between different peoples. As I can see in American culture some expressions and words related to private parts- like the d.ick you mentioned are used easily but in others such as Persian culture, never; to the point where they often pronounce a foreign word or a name containing those words in a distorted manner.

1. LOL Do you really think that the usage of "d.i.c.k" as a private part precedes it's usage as a First Name? :) I would be surprised.
2. An Armenian example was also given and based on my exposure to Iranians, I did not see a huge difference between Armenians and Persians, from that point of view - i.e. when it comes to "pudeur"

LOL How did you explain? If you mean the usage of 'Ր,' then shouldn't you provide a plausible reply to Shirak's claim that he changed it to 'Ր???'
As one letter is dropped (ը or ի) in the Armenian version and the other two (ա and ր) are pronounced differently.

What and how does it explain??? You've lost me. Is a description an explanation???
In any case, you really need to keep an open mind about phonetic/lexical variations due to usage, time, space and transliterations.

Do you have in mind the novelist? Personally, my focus is the etymology of the First Name "Rafi/Raffi" and, at this point, I don't care why the novelist chose "Raffi" as his pen name.

In any case:
1. J-e-ws have been in Persia, Iraq and Armenia long before the Arabs so it could have been "Perso-J-e-w-ish."
2. Are you trying to say that Raffi's world was confined to where he was born? I hope that he was not that narrow minded.
3. In general, but it may not apply to the novelist, do you think that people are/were aware that "Rafi/Raffi" may have two - or many - different origins; or based on where they live, one origin takes precedence???
1. Yes, but the influence that the Moslem Arabs have left on Iran is much bigger than that of J.ews. However both peoples are considered Semites and definitely do have certain things in common.

Yes. My point was that both are possible and both are.

2. Being influenced by some regional or environmental elements is not a sign of "narrow-mindedness", it's just natural and sometimes inevitable.

There's a huge difference between "being influenced" and "being confined;" don't you think so?

3.As I said the regional influence could be normal and take precedence but again it's just a speculation.

I would agree if "takes precedence" means something like "makes it more likely."

LOL OK If you are not convinced that the 'o' in "Seroj" could have been naturally added to "Serj" because vowels are often implicit in Farsi where "Serj" and "Seroj" are commonly written in the same way in Farsi; then please suggest an etymology/origin.

I have already said that 'Seroj' is another version of 'Serj'. As for why the 'o' has been added; my guess is; to facilitate the pronounciation in Persian.

LOL Maybe I was mislead by your reply??
Sometimes, vowels are not explicit in Farsi. So what? First off, there is no vowel in Serj between 'r' and 'j', and then why add one to make 'Seroj'??

Siamanto

08-09-2007, 07:53 PM

Siamanto

08-10-2007, 10:04 AM

there is a space that separates the First Name from "ibn/ebn" that is part of the Last Name.

I meant to say that "ibn/ebn" is not part of the First Name. There may not be an explicit Middle Name in Arabic as there is one in some other cultures, but "ibn/ebn" seems to be part of what may be a "Middle Name."

4. Consider the word that means Kurd in those languages. You can ask your Arabic teacher for Arabic - I'm told it is "Krdi/Kirdi"

Or just search for "Kirdi" on this page. (http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001124.html)

zourna

08-11-2007, 06:39 AM

ERROR ERROR ERROR....
That "knowledge base" is crap man!
Random Access Memory?!!! What the xxxx?! :)
Is that what Vram means?! I'm dreadful!

I'm intrigued, by the way. Why would anyone (any sane person) post in here if he or she hold already the required info. Isn't that weird?!
Sharing, "Contribution" you'd say?
Well, based on what I have seen in here, that's absurd! You know what you know; to hell with others...

Now it seems you're the best cook around. Chop chop, I'm:crying:
take care

Sip

08-11-2007, 07:39 PM

I had a very interesting conversation with my grandma today ... turns out one of her most favorite literary works is "Siamanto ev Khajezare" by Hovhannes Shiraz. I told her about this weirdo on the Internet that wants to continue to "argue" about whether or not Siamanto is a male name and she found it rather amusing :)

zourna

08-12-2007, 02:31 AM

Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, you know what's funny! :))))
check this out http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=vram+name+meaning
Your "knowledge Base" result of Vram. :))))

Siamanto

08-12-2007, 04:28 PM

ERROR ERROR ERROR....
That "knowledge base" is crap man!
Random Access Memory?!!! What the xxxx?!
Is that what Vram means?! I'm dreadful!

There seems to be a problem with your computer because our system does not display such an error message. I suggest that you stop blaming us and contact either Microsoft or your vendor, instead. :evil:

I'm intrigued, by the way. Why would anyone (any sane person) post in here if he or she hold already the required info. Isn't that weird?!
Sharing, "Contribution" you'd say?
Well, based on what I have seen in here, that's absurd! You know what you know; to hell with others...

Because exact knowledge of the origin of words, concepts, races etc. is seldom - not to say, never - possible; contribution and sharing means confrontation of different views that can stimulate the mind and create dynamics.

Now it seems you're the best cook around. Chop chop, I'm
take care

LOL You just bring your zourna as if music was all we needed to celebrate; a cook also needs some ingredients - that you can contribute - to prepare meals for the gourmets hungry for knowledge.

Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, you know what's funny! :))))
check this out http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=vram+name+meaning
Your "knowledge Base" result of Vram. :))))
LOL Seeing is believing; you have probably thought that I was joking when I said "our." :)

Please be patient...and contribute! :) Thanks!

Siamanto

08-15-2007, 04:36 PM

Sorry no data.
Just a logical hunch, or more precisely a judgment based on comparison of possible connections. Since, it is most probably a name derived from other foreign names, the connection to diminutive/slangish Serzh or Serozh (which are popular in Armenia and most definitely derived form Sergey and Seriozha) is in my opinion stronger than any other connection.

Again, thanks for explaining your view or opinion; however, considering that
1. The trailing 'a' is essential in the Russian diminutive form
2. Armenians are familiar with Russian and its subtleties
3. In other cases - i.e. Olga, Sasha, Vova... - the essential trailing 'a' was kept by Armenians
I have an issue understanding why the essential trailing 'a' in the Russian "Seriozha/Serioja" was dropped in the Armenian "Serozh/Seroj???"
Can you think of a couple of other cases where it was dropped? Thanks.

Also, do you know how it is in Tolstoy's Armenian translation of Anna Karenina??? Maybe Lucin, or someone else, can tell us how it is in the Farsi translation of the novel???

Lucin

08-18-2007, 01:31 AM

1 of 2

I will start my post with a possible explanation of the origin of "Raffi," the novelist's pen name.
According to the following biography of Raffi, mentioned earlier by Lucin: (http://groong.usc.edu/tcc/tcc-20021209.html)

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the above mentioned work; but, would it be unrealistic to consider or see in the novelist's "Mr. Alexander Raffi" a reference to Alexander Raphael, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Raphael) the "first British-Armenian to serve in the House of Commons of the United Kingdom?"

If the above interpretation is true, than it suggests that
1. Either the British-Armenian was also - maybe commonly??? - known as Alexander Raffi and/or "Raffi" was already used as a diminutive of "Raphael."

The above interpretation is made more credible considering that in the past, "Rafi/Raffi" was apparently used anywhere from Southern Europe to India. Furthermore, it seems that it was used
1. In the "West" - Italy, Spain??? J.e.ws... - as the diminutive of "Raphael???"
2. In the "East" - Arab World, Iran, India... - as derived from the Arabic First Name???

Interesting point… but could someone like Alexander Raphael be an inspiration to Raffi, the novelist? It's possible… I found no information on the book, however the title of the book; "On Mr. Alexander Raffi's Travels In Persia" gives me the impression that the novel could have been a kind of biography -not fully close to his (of that British Armenian) reality- or a segment of Alexander Raphael's life as a diplomat and his possible travels to Persia…
Also it says in the biography:
he proposed that it would be well for Melik-Hagopian to write a piece based on his ample knowledge of the life of Armenians both in his native Persia,
as well as in Turkish Armenia.

But now we need to know if Raffi is a diminutive of Raphael or not… whether it has been used as a diminutive of Raphael or not amongst different people?

2. The pen name is a diminutive of "Raphael" and not the Perso-Arabic "Rafi/Rafik." Actually, the biography suggests that Raffi had no or little interest in the Perso-Arabic cultural world????

Which part of the biography gave you that impression?

2 of 2

1. First of all, at no point, I was opposing my suggestion to yours; I'm sorry if you felt it that way. I was simply reminding you that others - not necessarily me - may see it differently; in fact, I said:
"some Armenians - who may be as knowledgeable of our culture and as patriotic as we are - may consider 'Vladimir,'...
"I won't be surprised to learn that more Armenians would feel more comfortable with 'Vladimir'..."
In fact
1.1 Names like "Vladimir," "Patrick," "Armand" are included in the existing dictionaries; while "Arbi," "Arabo," "Seroj" are not. Furthermore, "Patrick" that you seem to perceive as an Irish First Name was, apparently, the name of a IX Century Armenian prince i.e. Patrig Antsevatsi.
1.2 According to armradio.am - see post above - "Arman[d]" is a popular name
1.3....

Patrick is an Irish name; remember Saint Patrick? Anyway it was (is) my personal approach to the question and names' dictionaries are also written by different individuals with different perceptions.

Armand is different from Arman.

2. Second of all, more than once, I suggested to include both lists - at least, initially. I don't think that many "non Armenian" First Names will be included; in fact, it would be easy to limit to the most common ones

3. Also, for the record
3.1 This is the first time that you suggest to exclude those names that you have presented as "Armenian."
3.2 The focus was point 6 of post #10 i.e. foreign First Names used by Armenians

Because we don't know yet if Arbi, Arabo, etc are not Armenian but yes, in order to be more accurate they'd rather not be included.... Actually, I could not find any data on those names; except that Arabo has been a Dashnak hero…

P.S. By the way, Monique Ekmekdjian, the author of the dictionary in French (http://www.acam-france.org/bibliographie/auteur.php?cle=ekmekdjian-monique) seems to be a "purist", "selective" or "conservative" like you??? I'm probably a bit more inclusive.

I didn't know the honorable Hrachia Ajarian had written a First name's dictionary; it can be very interesting (at least to me) and worth buying it…

I'm not sure what you mean???
First of all, a word or a name can be transliterated in a different language even when the object/person is physically absent.

So?? I don't understand why you said the above.

Second of all, why not Iranian immigrants? J.e.wish? etc. It seems that "Rafi/Raffi" is and was used from Italy to India???
Besides the Perso-Arabic "usage/trace" there seems to be also the Judeo-Christian "usage/trace" of "Raffi/Raffi."

LOL, Iranian? As a surname yes. Arab and probably xxxish; if xxxs have transformed Raphael to Raffi…

First of all, I hope that the above is just a silly joke and you don't have, like Sip, a fixation on "Siamanto????" :)

No, Why should I have a fixation on Siamanto? It hasn't been a hurdle for me.

Second of all, LOL why would I write a dictionary when my views - contrary to yours - are aligned with the existing "status quo?" LOL I thought that it was your goal to "correct" the situation and make of "Siamanto" a full fledged Armenian First Name. :)

Of course; the day I become as fluent as Mr. Ajarian in Armenian, I would do so definitely… :)

Yes, and as long as it is not used among non-Iranians it would make no difference. Would it? :)

Actually it would; since the mystery remains why it is being used uniquely by Iranian-Armenians and no other people (Armenian or not)??

Yes, it is funny because there is a space that separates the First Name from "ibn/ebn" that is part of the Last Name. It's as funny as considering "Petervon" as the First Name in "Peter Von Neuman." :) It's well known that in Arabic "ibn" is not part of the First Name.
By the way, the following document (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Rustah) suggests that there's a clear separation between "ebn" and the First Name, even in Farsi?? :)

I don't understand why it is funny? Either way it doesn't make a difference. As you said later; it's not clear exactly if it's a part of the last name or a middle name, especially if you knew Persian and knew how it is pronounced, you would understand better what I mean.
What's more contrary to 'Von Neuman', 'ebn Harthima' cannot be pronounced separately. (separate from the first name)

LOL Good Luck! In the meantime, he'll be considered Iranian as the documents suggest.
For the record, I know an Iranian Armenian family with a Scottish??? Last Name - a great grandfather was from Scotland and mixed with the local Armenians.

That's different. Their ancestor was Scottish… but if he is Iranian, I don't understand why Pitts as his surname??

Did anybody say that the usage is common? The existence has been established and that's all it matters.
Realistically, how many documents would you expect to find - online or in archives - about historical personalities individuals with a given name?
We may never be able to tell how common it was???

By common, I meant it's not being used today. At least my constant exposure to these people suggests that.

LOL What's the point? The same applies to any name said with an accent or in an unfamiliar way in any part of the world?
LOL Lucin, you need to travel and be confronted with lexical/phonetic/....differences and/or variations.

I have been enough exposed to different cultures besides Persian; but my point was 'Rafi' with its Persian pronunciation and as a first name not Րաֆֆի...

I'm sorry that you have misunderstood, but I did not say that "Kirdi" means Kurd in Persian.
LOL To make it simple
1. Look at the map of the region
2. Localize the areas where Kurds have lived and/or were present
3. Make a list of all the languages spoken in those areas
4. Consider the word that means Kurd in those languages. You can ask your Arabic teacher for Arabic - I'm told it is "Krdi/Kirdi" - and for jurkish google "kirdi/kurd/kurt" or check this page: What are Kurds Called? (http://www.aliraqi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=46019)

LOL Always, keep in mind slight phonetic/lexical variations???

It can be that kirdi means Kurd in some other languages but not in Persian anyway….

1. LOL Do you really think that the usage of "d.i.c.k" as a private part precedes it's usage as a First Name? :) I would be surprised.
2. An Armenian example was also given and based on my exposure to Iranians, I did not see a huge difference between Armenians and Persians, from that point of view - i.e. when it comes to "pudeur"

1.LOL, no but I don't care since D.ick has two meanings in English contrary to its Persian equivalent.('kir') :)

2.No, there is not much difference between us when it comes to 'pudeur' but what did you see in the Iranians?? Of course they might use easily all those words related to private parts in English but not in Persian.
By the way, I didn't get you; what Armenian example are you talking about??

What and how does it explain??? You've lost me. Is a description an explanation???
In any case, you really need to keep an open mind about phonetic/lexical variations due to usage, time, space and transliterations.

You are not lost; you got me right.

There's a huge difference between "being influenced" and "being confined;" don't you think so?

Okay, choosing a Persian or Arabic pen name due to regional influences does not mean that one is confined to a particular place; does it? :)

LOL Maybe I was mislead by your reply??

No, you were not. I will post on 'Seroj' later.

Sip

08-18-2007, 09:35 AM

No, Why should I have a fixation on Siamanto? It hasn't been a hurdle for me.

Strangely enough, it only seems to have been a hurdle for the person who chose it as a nickname :laugh::laugh::laugh: I bet he/she is still desparately trying to produce even a SINGLE female Siamanto anywhere :D:rolleyes:

karoaper

08-19-2007, 10:32 AM

Again, thanks for explaining your view or opinion; however, considering that
1. The trailing 'a' is essential in the Russian diminutive form
2. Armenians are familiar with Russian and its subtleties
3. In other cases - i.e. Olga, Sasha, Vova... - the essential trailing 'a' was kept by Armenians
I have an issue understanding why the essential trailing 'a' in the Russian "Seriozha/Serioja" was dropped in the Armenian "Serozh/Seroj???"
Can you think of a couple of other cases where it was dropped? Thanks.

Also, do you know how it is in Tolstoy's Armenian translation of Anna Karenina??? Maybe Lucin, or someone else, can tell us how it is in the Farsi translation of the novel???

The trailing 'a' is sometimes dropped even by Russians when say calling that person. The 'a' is indeed seen on almost all diminutive versions, but in Armenian, this is an optional thing. In other words, Armenians are not required to abide by the Russian convention of having the 'a', even though they certainly know that it's the proper way. Btw, this only happens with male diminutive forms. Another example I can think of would be taking the 'a' from Grisha, the popular Grish, even Armenianizing it as Grishik. Another example: a very 'rabiz' version of Volodia is Volod. As in: "Ara en Volod@ Losic nor heta darcel, het@ karsun zuik koshika berel".

Lucin

08-19-2007, 10:45 AM

As in: "Ara en Volod@ Losic nor heta darcel, het@ karsun zuik koshika berel".

:laugh:

Siamanto

08-23-2007, 07:00 PM

The trailing 'a' is sometimes dropped even by Russians when say calling that person. The 'a' is indeed seen on almost all diminutive versions, but in Armenian, this is an optional thing.
....
Another example I can think of would be taking the 'a' from Grisha, the popular Grish,

I have spent some time with some Russian friends/colleagues who explained the usage of the different "declinations" of a First Name in Russian - including dropping the trailing 'a.' The following is a brief summary of what I've learned - of course, it may or may not correspond to the usage in Armenia:
1. The different "declinations" or forms of a First Name reflect - and depend on - the relationships and the proper protocol to address the person; in other words, a person formally called "Vladimir" may be called "Volodya" in a casual professional relationship but, not in a formal professional relationship unless the person is comfortable with it or presents himself as "Volodya." In any case, a peron usually indicates that he/she accepts being called in a certain way.
A Vladimir may not be called "Vova" or "Vovochka" in a business environment, but only by close friends and relatives. In a business environment, it may be perceived as a form of contempt.

2. As for dropping the trailing 'a,' the following seems of interest:

It somehow implies confidential nature. You say "Dim" instead of "Dima" only in a private conversation and usually when you want to confide something or somehow solicit his honest but private opinion.
Can be used in professional relations also when you want to show closer relationship with that person in front of the others. .....

Serozh is just like any dropping of "a". If you have a very close relation with the gentlemen, you may use it...Otherwise it is a more of the term of contempt.

In other words, it is inaccurate to consider "Vova" or "Volodya" as First Names as they simply are different forms - "declinations" - to address a person with the First Name "Vladimir." Of course, the same applies to other First Names and its "declinations."

P.S.
By the way, I've been told that, less frequently, "Dima" may be used to address a Vadim or Vladimir.

In other words, Armenians are not required to abide by the Russian convention of having the 'a', even though they certainly know that it's the proper way.

I'm not sure what was meant, but "to be required to abide by" seems a very strong expression when it comes to such linguistic "habits" - foreign or not - that are not governed by strict grammatical rules; usually, they are reproduced or mimicked.
Furthermore, such linguistic habits do not evolve - or are adapted, either by Armenians or Russians - based on conscious and/or unanimous decisions: they just happen depending on usage and usage is conditioned by circumstances, social protocols, cultural values etc.

even Armenianizing it as Grishik.

For the record, the suffix "ik" is not necessarily Armenian; actually, Ukrainians use it as well, maybe others too??????

Another example: a very 'rabiz' version of Volodia is Volod. As in: "Ara en Volod@ Losic nor heta darcel, het@ karsun zuik koshika berel".

I don't know if "Volod" is a "rabiz?????" form of "Volodya," but it is the Ukrainian form of "Volodya" i.e. a diminutive of "Volodimir/Volodymyr." That was the feeling of the Russians and I used to have an Ukranian colleague, named "Volodymyr," that we called "Volod."

To conclude, I would simply add:
"Does the fact that "Serozh" is used in different cultures that are somehow connected make the Russian "trace" even more credible?"

That is my personal inclination; however, as we have seen with "Rafi/Raffi," all possible "traces" should be considered because "mono trace" - or origin - models are simplistic illusions, abandoned many centuries ago - the same applies to anything that "has a history" i.e. races, cultures, ideas etc.