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Regional geopolitics

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  • Re: Regional geopolitics

    Originally posted by bell-the-cat View Post
    Really. That is like saying that the moon is made of cheese or that the earth was created in 7 days?

    The only grain of truth in your belief is that America and Europe was full of Russians who had left Russia and were now proclaiming the czar as the devil incarnate: they were the main group who agitated against him and his family being given refuge in the west after the revolution, and who also agitated that Soviet Russia was a fine thing (until their diaspora was flooded and outnumbered by a new wave of refugees who agitated that it was now Soviet Russia that was the devil incarnate).
    All the vocal diasporas are composed of a bunch of liars and only a fool ever takes their advice or believes what they say. But there are plenty of fools out there ready to be influenced - the cases of Cuba and, more recently, Libya and Syria prove that.
    Time for your pills cat

    Comment


    • Re: Regional geopolitics

      Here is an interesting article of how in 1924 france bought 400 tons of corpses and bones of killed Armenians and Greeks from turkey for industrial use.


      Արգելված թեմա. Թուրքիան կոտորված հայերի դիակները արդյունաբերական նպատակով վաճառել է Ֆրանսիային (ֆոտո)



      Մարտ 05, 2014 | 00:04
      Թուրքիայում կան թեմաներ, որոնց մասին չբարձրաձայնելու չգրված օրենքներ կան։ Այդ թեմաները բնականաբար գլխավորում են Հայոց ցեղասպանության հետ կապվածները։

      Այս անգամ NEWS.am-ը ներկայացնում է 1924-ին տեղի ունեցած մի առեղծվածային դեպքի մասին, որի մասին պնդումներն ուղղակի սարսափեցնում են մարդու։ Խոսքը Օսմանյան Թուրքիայում ցեղասպանության ենթարկված հայերի եւ հույների դիակների վաճառքի մասին է։

      1924 թվականի դեկտեմբերի 13-ին, Թուրքիայի Մուդանիայի նավահանգստից դեպի Մարսել է ճանապարհվել Զան անունը կրող անգլիական բեռնանավ։ Որեւէ փաստաթղթեր չեն լրացվել, թե ինչ բեռ է գտնվում նավում։ Սակայն նավահանգստի աշխատակիցները նկատել էին, որ մոտ 400 տոննա կշռող բեռը մարդկային դիակներ են։ Ոստիկանությունը փորձել է միջամտել, սակայն վերեւից եկած հրահանգի շնորհիվ նավը ազատ դուրս է եկել բաց ծով։

      Թամեր Չիլինգիրն իր Քեմալիստներն ինչպես 50 հազար դիակ վաճառեցին ֆրանսիացիներին հրապարակման մեջ հիշեցրել է, որ 1924-ի դեկտեմբերին, Սալոնիկում հրատարակվող Մակեդոնիա պարբերականը եւս անդրադարձել է այս թեմային՝ Տխուր բեռ վերնագրով։



      Այս թեմային է անդրադարձել 1924-ի դեկտեմբերի 23-ի համարում New York Times-ը, գրելով, որ անգլիական նավով Մուդանիայի նավահանգստից 400 տոննա մարդկային դիակներ են տեղափոխում Մարսել՝ նշելով, թե ամենայն հավանականությամբ դրանք սպանված հույների դիակներն են։ Կան այլ կարծքիներ, որ նավի բեռը կազմված են եւ հայերի, եւ հույների դիակներից։



      Նույն լուրի մասին գրել է նաեւ ֆրանսիական Միդի պարբերականը՝ եւս նշելով, որ նավում գտնվել են Թուրքիայում կոտորված հայերի դիակները։

      Հույն պատմաբան Վլասիս Ագձիդիսն ուսումնասիրել է այս թեման՝ առանձնացնելով այս սարսափելի փաստերն ապացուցող աղբյուրները՝ Eleftherotypia, New York Times եւ Midi պարբերականները, Էրվե Ժորժելի Զմյուռնիայի ավերման հետ կապված ֆրանսիական արխիվների անհամապատասխանությունը վերնագրով աշխատությունը եւ Էլիաս Վենեզի անունով մի ականատեսի վկայությունները 31328. ստրկության գիրք վերնագիրը կրող գրքում։ Փոքր Ասիայում աղետի հետ կապված սարսափելի պատմություն՝ վաճառքի կմախքներ,-գրել է Վլասիս Ագձիդիսն ու հավելել՝ կարո՞ղ են զոհերի մնացորդները սպանողների համար հարստության աղբյուր հանդիսանալ։



      Զոհերի դիակներից օճառ ստանալու մի խոսակցություն կար Առաջին համաշխարհայինից սկսած։ Բացի այդ, նմանատիպ տարածված պատմություններ կային նաեւ նացիստների կողմից սպանված հրեաների հետ կապված։ Այսքանից հետո այդ ամենի մասին սկսում ես վերաբերվել ոչ թե որպես խոսակցության, այլ որպես իրականության,-գրել է պատմաբան Վլասիս Ագձիդիսը։

      Արթուր Հակոբյան
      Here is the link
      http://news.am/arm/news/197333.html
      Last edited by Hakob; 03-04-2014, 05:05 PM.

      Comment


      • Re: Regional geopolitics

        Originally posted by Hakob View Post
        Here is an interesting article of how in 1924 france bought 400 tons of corpses and bones of killed Armenians and Greeks from turkey for industrial use.


        Արգելված թեմա. Թուրքիան կոտորված հայերի դիակները արդյունաբերական նպատակով վաճառել է Ֆրանսիային (ֆոտո)



        Մարտ 05, 2014 | 00:04
        Թուրքիայում կան թեմաներ, որոնց մասին չբարձրաձայնելու չգրված օրենքներ կան։ Այդ թեմաները բնականաբար գլխավորում են Հայոց ցեղասպանության հետ կապվածները։

        Այս անգամ NEWS.am-ը ներկայացնում է 1924-ին տեղի ունեցած մի առեղծվածային դեպքի մասին, որի մասին պնդումներն ուղղակի սարսափեցնում են մարդու։ Խոսքը Օսմանյան Թուրքիայում ցեղասպանության ենթարկված հայերի եւ հույների դիակների վաճառքի մասին է։

        1924 թվականի դեկտեմբերի 13-ին, Թուրքիայի Մուդանիայի նավահանգստից դեպի Մարսել է ճանապարհվել Զան անունը կրող անգլիական բեռնանավ։ Որեւէ փաստաթղթեր չեն լրացվել, թե ինչ բեռ է գտնվում նավում։ Սակայն նավահանգստի աշխատակիցները նկատել էին, որ մոտ 400 տոննա կշռող բեռը մարդկային դիակներ են։ Ոստիկանությունը փորձել է միջամտել, սակայն վերեւից եկած հրահանգի շնորհիվ նավը ազատ դուրս է եկել բաց ծով։

        Թամեր Չիլինգիրն իր Քեմալիստներն ինչպես 50 հազար դիակ վաճառեցին ֆրանսիացիներին հրապարակման մեջ հիշեցրել է, որ 1924-ի դեկտեմբերին, Սալոնիկում հրատարակվող Մակեդոնիա պարբերականը եւս անդրադարձել է այս թեմային՝ Տխուր բեռ վերնագրով։



        Այս թեմային է անդրադարձել 1924-ի դեկտեմբերի 23-ի համարում New York Times-ը, գրելով, որ անգլիական նավով Մուդանիայի նավահանգստից 400 տոննա մարդկային դիակներ են տեղափոխում Մարսել՝ նշելով, թե ամենայն հավանականությամբ դրանք սպանված հույների դիակներն են։ Կան այլ կարծքիներ, որ նավի բեռը կազմված են եւ հայերի, եւ հույների դիակներից։



        Նույն լուրի մասին գրել է նաեւ ֆրանսիական Միդի պարբերականը՝ եւս նշելով, որ նավում գտնվել են Թուրքիայում կոտորված հայերի դիակները։

        Հույն պատմաբան Վլասիս Ագձիդիսն ուսումնասիրել է այս թեման՝ առանձնացնելով այս սարսափելի փաստերն ապացուցող աղբյուրները՝ Eleftherotypia, New York Times եւ Midi պարբերականները, Էրվե Ժորժելի Զմյուռնիայի ավերման հետ կապված ֆրանսիական արխիվների անհամապատասխանությունը վերնագրով աշխատությունը եւ Էլիաս Վենեզի անունով մի ականատեսի վկայությունները 31328. ստրկության գիրք վերնագիրը կրող գրքում։ Փոքր Ասիայում աղետի հետ կապված սարսափելի պատմություն՝ վաճառքի կմախքներ,-գրել է Վլասիս Ագձիդիսն ու հավելել՝ կարո՞ղ են զոհերի մնացորդները սպանողների համար հարստության աղբյուր հանդիսանալ։



        Զոհերի դիակներից օճառ ստանալու մի խոսակցություն կար Առաջին համաշխարհայինից սկսած։ Բացի այդ, նմանատիպ տարածված պատմություններ կային նաեւ նացիստների կողմից սպանված հրեաների հետ կապված։ Այսքանից հետո այդ ամենի մասին սկսում ես վերաբերվել ոչ թե որպես խոսակցության, այլ որպես իրականության,-գրել է պատմաբան Վլասիս Ագձիդիսը։

        Արթուր Հակոբյան
        Here is the link
        http://news.am/arm/news/197333.html
        This story seems strange, if not impossible.
        Soap is made not from bones, but from biodegradable parts of a human body.
        In a matter of days, that part of the corps is largely degraded, and stinks the hell...
        Do you imagine what kind of smell must have been there, if these corpses were still in the way of degradation??
        Have anyone smelled a corps 10 day old? 15 days?? 30 days???
        Bones must have been possible, but with which kind of chemical reaction can you obtain soap??
        Saponification needs oil....

        During WWII, this was done by Germans, since they did not have a breach in their industrial chain.
        Already fresh corpses were used to obtain soap...

        Comment


        • Re: Regional geopolitics

          Originally posted by Haykakan View Post
          O look the russophobe Vrej is back and just in time to tell us how aweful Russia is and how Armenia needs so badly to commit suicide by dishing Russia.. I would not bet that the Russian actions will lead to isolation, there are plenty of other countries who are sick of the new world order. There is a need for something like an Eurasian Union so it makes very much good sense to make such a union. The EU, Nafta and there is a new one being formed in the Pacific are all examples of such a union and non of them cover the Eurasian area thus establishing a union here makes perfect sense. Armenia has much to gain in this type of union both economically and politically. Vrej only sees the bad and always he has only seen the bad and never the good and this discredits him and renders him a pessimist with no equals on this forum (that is saying a lot). The Ukraine is the birthplace of Russia it is in every sense Russian. It was Russia that ousted the Turk from that area and paid for it with Russian blood thus it has every right to that land in historical and every other sense. Lots of people are heavily influenced by western propaganda because it is everywhere all the time but the best tool any person has is his/her brain which many people have set on autopilot in tune with mass media. Think for yourself instead of letting people manipulate you.
          My dear,
          As usual, you did not understand anything from what you read.....
          And of course, always as usual: Anything short of 'Slava Rassia' is russophobia for you.
          Which in its turn is a crime....
          So be it!

          Comment


          • Re: Regional geopolitics

            Concerning the supposed economic benefits of the would be CU: you must not have a small clue of economics, nor realities, to accept the official thesis of any economical sense for Armenia in it.
            All more or less serious economists in Armenia do agree, that it will hit hard, at least large chunks of our economy.
            The reason the regime did sign, had nothing to do with Armenia's economic interests.
            If anything: please have the obligation to read the last interview of Robert Kocharian, whom no one could dare to consider a russophobe..., he is a friend of Putin, and talk was about his supposed potential chair in the direction of Gazprom, not that long ago....

            Just to remind a sad reality: the price of gas that was supposed to go down, do anyone remember about...., that was to be the sole tangible benefit for the ordinary citizen ..????

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            • Re: Regional geopolitics

              Concerning the nowday Ukraine:
              This country is a small empire by itself, all but natural or historical.
              It is the result of the major territorial gains Stalin registered in yalta, mostly at the expense of Poland and Germany. Basically Ukraine registered a virtually + 50% expension, and most of the territorial gains of the USSR have been inherited by Ukraine and Belarus. Russia got virtually nothing at the end of the day, if you except Kaliningrad (aka-Koenigsberg, birthplace of Prussia, German nation's "Holy land"), on the Western front, and Southern Sakhalin and the chain of the Kurils from Japan...
              Khrim was never part of Ukraine in any way, nor historic, nor cultural.
              It was a purely russian land, offered to his beloved Ukraine by the Ukrainian Krushchev, inspired by his Georgian predecessor Stalin, who did the same courtesy to his birthplace... offering Armenian Javakhk & Treghk, Southern Ossetia and Abkhazia....

              This being said, this artificial melting pot called Ukrain made by the soviet is the very reason, the Russians have so much trouble with, since it is these same ex Polish provinces, with their catholic proto-Pole/uniatz that do make the core of the anti russian, catholic, pro-Polish Ukrain of today... : history backfires sometimes....

              This being said, more than half of Ukrainian ethnos does not like Russians, are tired of their rule, and a sizeable part of Nationalist go as far as hating Russians. whether nationalists, anticommunists, catholics, ex-poles, banderists, etc.... Do these people have the right to leave out of Russian control? or is it forbidden, they are condemned to remain slaves?
              The entity called Ukrain is artificial, no one, nor the West, nor Russia can have it all.
              There is two major decantation scenarios at hand: Yougoslavia or Tchekoslovakia.
              Or else, they must accept a loose confederation, Switzerland style.
              In the mean time, all gambles and bargains are possible.

              If you noticed, I do not include Khrim in Ukraine anyway, since it never was in the first place.
              The style Putin used to retake what was his, was the worst, for his country's long term interests, and certainly, from Arsakh's.

              Ukrainian nationalists that do insist on Khrim's control are dudes, or do hope to minimize the cost they do know they will be obliged to pay for their freedom,.... to just Khrim. .....
              Last edited by Vrej1915; 03-04-2014, 08:14 PM.

              Comment


              • Re: Regional geopolitics

                Originally posted by Vrej1915 View Post
                This story seems strange, if not impossible.
                Soap is made not from bones, but from biodegradable parts of a human body.
                In a matter of days, that part of the corps is largely degraded, and stinks the hell...
                Do you imagine what kind of smell must have been there, if these corpses were still in the way of degradation??
                Have anyone smelled a corps 10 day old? 15 days?? 30 days???
                Bones must have been possible, but with which kind of chemical reaction can you obtain soap??
                Saponification needs oil....

                During WWII, this was done by Germans, since they did not have a breach in their industrial chain.
                Already fresh corpses were used to obtain soap...
                The part about soap has been contemplated by Lragir's correspondent. He added his opinion. That is not the story.
                The story is summary of Turkish and greek separate articles which use Greek and turkish sources and Dec 23 1924 article by New York Times.
                In my opinion the 400 tonns of human remains were largely skeletons and bones to be reworked into anatomical or college displays or study supplies or just displays.
                The fact is that french bought human remains from turkey in 1924. American newspaper would not publish it without reason. And a turkish historian would not wright an essay about. Not too far from history of how europe has treated Armenians and Greeks in turkey. Perfectly in line with all the indignities we are still having to go through in the hands of some in europe.
                What remains those could be if by the muslim law a muslim remain cannot be exumed or desecrated in any way. Christian, abviosly.
                What christian? Armenian or Greek. The next comes how would it be profitable for supplier to go around and exume 400 tonns of bons from graves or by collecting unclaimed bodies? From turkey? Abviosely they came from mass graves. French knew this (this by itself is a breach of international moral responciblity and is a crime).
                Whoever that French enterpreneurship is, they knew where to turn for huge supplies of fresh human bones. And how they respected the victims of genocide?
                So my friends, next time anyone of you goes to some european university or museum and sees any human bone products with "made in France" on it, maybe you would be looking on the bones of a great grandfather or uncle and aunt or a relative of yours cut down by turks and put to display as a specimen thanks to france.
                P.S. I would not exclude, if the french acted as wholesalers (agents of main manufacturer or supplier, as the article say that when questioned by port autorities the order came from high ranks in turkish government to clear the shipment) and supplied the "bodywork" shops in other countries.
                Last edited by Hakob; 03-04-2014, 09:04 PM.

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                • Re: Regional geopolitics

                  17:05 05/03/2014 IN THE WORLD
                  Ukraine has revealed the new world of western impotence

                  By Simon Jenkins
                  From The Guardian

                  I am starting to lose this one. How dare anyone excuse a great power hurling brute force against a small one, justifying it with some nonsense about extremists and a "responsibility to protect". There should be no place for such cynical bullying in a 21st-century world order. And for what? So a leader with a virility complex can play to his domestic gallery. The whole thing is utterly unacceptable. There must be costs and consequences.

                  But enough of Iraq. What of Ukraine? We can only gasp at the hypocrisy of a British foreign secretary and an American secretary of state lecturing Russia from a Kiev street corner on the evil of invading small countries. Did no ghost of Iraq or Afghanistan, of Kosovo or Libya, hover over their shoulders? To be sure there are motes in Vladimir Putin's eye, but they are nothing as to the beams in the eyes of Washington and London. The occupation of Crimea is a village fete compared with shock and awe over Baghdad and Belgrade and the killing fields of Falluja and Helmand. As the western powers repatriate their blood-stained legions, surely a twinge of humility is in order.

                  Apparently not. The west is now chanting psalms of self-righteousness. David Cameron agrees with Barack Obama that Crimea is "completely unacceptable". John Kerry calls the occupation "an incredible act of aggression ... on a trumped-up pretext". To the Republican senator John McCain, "allowing" Russia to take Crimea makes him "remember the 1930s when Hitler took the Sudetenland".

                  The catchphrase for this crisis has become "costs and consequences". Obama threatens them, Cameron threatens them. The Commons Ukraine committee chairman, John Whittingdale, wants them "to send a very strong message" to Putin to "return to the table". Nick Clegg froths over them from his armchair. He is "absolutely not ruling out now the kind of options we will look at in order to make it very clear to Putin that there will be very real consequences". Wow.

                  The only costs and consequences on which anyone can agree is to cancel a G-something summit in a luxury hotel somewhere, and to ban oligarchs from shopping at Harrods and sending their sons to Eton. We might also keep our royals from their Paralympics. To this has the mighty British empire fallen. For all its armies, fleets and nuclear warheads, it can punish Russia's bear with nothing more terrifying than Harrods, Eton and the royal family. Putin must be rolling on the floor with laughter.

                  The truth is that western diplomacy has no language for the new impotence. It used to get its way by "drawing red lines" and threatening actual violence. So ineptly have post-cold war politicians deployed this threat, so exorbitant has been the cost, that enemies have come to treat it as bluff. Iran and Syria are the most recent examples. By the time Cameron tried to threaten Damascus with bombs, the British parliament had had enough. If Syria could call Cameron's bluff, how much more likely would Russia be to do so?

                  What has been encouraging about the Ukraine crisis so far has been the unusual emergence of a "case to be made" on both sides. For once we have seen a "revolution" with some balanced coverage. The BBC's Newsnight investigated the "fascist coup" in Kiev thesis, and found some truth in it. The legitimacy of Viktor Yanukovych as elected leader was contrasted with his manifest flaws, as was the motley character of the Maidan crowd. We know of the divided loyalties of Crimea and eastern Ukraine.

                  In the past week I have read more than I dreamed possible of the vexed history of Crimea, of Ukraine's role in Russian identity, and of Putin's complex relationship with Russian pride and paranoia. I have seen Moscow's re-occupation of Crimea as both understandable and illegitimate. Its legal crudity – without even awaiting a local referendum – compares with the political crudity of Nato's attempted encirclement.

                  This is a theatre on whose stage the fidgeting warmongers of London and Washington fear to tread. Even when McCain crassly compares Putin to Hitler, he nervously adds that he is against military action. The west can huff and puff, but dare not bomb. In a Pavlovian trance that requires "something to be done", it cannot think what that might be.

                  Democratic leaders usually find foreign affairs easy. They can relax into grandstanding, machismo and cliche, with little downside. Regular foreign trips (Cameron is addicted to them) offer a break, a stroll up a red carpet, and relief from the pestilential press.

                  Ukraine has changed that. It is proving fiendishly difficult for compulsive interveners. Nothing seems fit for purpose. Every threat sounds empty. But at least pragmatism is starting to break through. On Monday the Foreign Office indicated as much in its new, exotic form of press release: a document revealed to photographers on a Downing Street pavement.

                  This indicated how far the government has moved since its Iran belligerence. While William Hague was playing to the Kiev gallery, his officials were studiously analysing the content of "costs and consequences". They concluded there should be no military contingencies or economic sanctions on Russia, or at least none that might hurt the City of London. There should be financial relief for the new regime in Kiev, but for Russia merely the usual waffle about missions and all-party talks. As with China over Tibet, London knows it is dealing with a big, rich beast, not a small, poor one. It deals with care.

                  I find this encouraging. Britain is still searching for a new metaphor for "punching below its weight". Its leaders may invite Kipling's ridicule for "killing Kruger with your mouth", but behind the verbal bluster they seem to recognise the inanity of the Foreign Office's "department of meaningless gestures". They may yet move towards Germany's department of sensible and measured response. Angela Merkel is not hollering about costs and consequences. Why waste her breath?

                  When I was visiting Russia in 2006 I asked a diplomat how Moscow would react to Britain's current invasion of Helmand in Afghanistan. He smiled and said: "Don't worry. We won't boycott your Olympics." He had the measure of Britain's foreign policy at the time. Today's Russia knows what it wants while Britain is playing games. If hypocrisy is now cover for realpolitik, that is good. Less good is that we have to learn it from Vladimir Putin.

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                  • Re: Regional geopolitics

                    Originally posted by Vrej1915 View Post
                    Ukrainian nationalists that do insist on Khrim's control are dudes, or do hope to minimize the cost they do know they will be obliged to pay for their freedom,.... to just Khrim. .....
                    As long as they don't take the Georgian approach: start an unwinable war in the expectation that other countries will rush in to save them and do the fighting for them.
                    Plenipotentiary meow!

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                    • Re: Regional geopolitics

                      Vrej countries do not join unions for short term economic gains. The Eurasion union is a long term project and has real benefits for Armenia in the long term. Sure Russia is dominant in our relations but this relationship is far better for Armenia than any of our alternatives. I teach economics so i do know a few things about it-the opportunity cost of us not going along with Russia's plan is much too high-Russia will make sure that we understand this if people like you have a hard time doing so now. As for Ukraine it seems this country will be split into pieces-it already is.
                      Hayastan or Bust.

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