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SEVRES treaty & WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

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  • #51
    Re: SEVRES treaty & WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

    Comment


    • #52
      Re: SEVRES treaty & WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

      Originally posted by Vrej1915 View Post
      VIDEO-ARA PAPYAN]
      This is good stuff. Along with Levon Shirinyan's clip you posted today. Alliances constantly shift. Hench the reason why the Western powers attempting to destroy Turkey during the WW1, turned Turkey into an ally and as a bulwark against the Soviet Union--the same Moscow/Bolsheviks without whom Turkey would not have survived and overturned the tide against them if the Bolsheviks had not provided them the weapons. It was with Moscows provided weapons the Turks overturned the tide against the West, Greece, and Armenia. In all instances, balance is needed. Armenia has always managed, for better or worse, when it was able to sustain balance, historically has been the case. Shifting toward one side or the other has always spelled doom.
      Last edited by Artsakh; 11-03-2015, 01:19 PM.
      BUY "WHO IS MONTE." Proceeds from this film will benefit the families of the fallen soldiers of the Karabagh war. Available at: www.armenianmusic.com

      <<Երբ իրիկունը գլուխներդ դնեք բարծին որ քնանաք, մի քիչ մտածեք ազգի մասին>>
      --ՔԱՋՆ ԱՆԴՐԱՆԻԿ

      Comment


      • #53
        Re: SEVRES treaty &amp; WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

        Originally posted by Artsakh View Post
        This is good stuff. Along with Levon Shirinyan's clip you posted today. Alliances constantly shift. Hench the reason why the Western powers attempting to destroy Turkey during the WW1, turned Turkey into an ally and as a bulwark against the Soviet Union--the same Moscow/Bolsheviks without whom Turkey would not have survived and overturned the tide against them if the Bolsheviks had not provided them the weapons. It was with Moscows provided weapons the Turks overturned the tide against the West, Greece, and Armenia. In all instances, balance is needed. Armenia has always managed, for better or worse, when it was able to sustain balance, historically has been the case. Shifting toward one side or the other has always spelled doom.
        Man you gotta be kidding me. This idiot Papyan is just another delusional idiot who is out of touch with reality and stuck in the past. He keeps bringing up the treaty of Serves as if it has any bearing on anything anymore. You say alliances change well the last time Armenia tried to align itself with the west we lost Cilicia and our western "friends" stood by and watched our genocide unfold. Many of these western stooges like our resident Vrej1915 are paid saboteurs. They will run off to some western country with their pockets full of money as the rest of their people get slaughtered and Armenia is destroyed. Do not be fooled and learn from history. The treaty of Serves was created by the western nations who refused to enforce it. What on earth makes you or anyone else think the west will do anything for us this time? Remember that this was a treaty western powers themselves made yet non of them ever even hinted anything resembling enforcement. Compare that to today where there is no treaty to speak of and unlike the past there are not even any offers nor promises being made by these western states to Armenia. If they left us for dead after failing to enforce a treaty they themselves made, what do you think they will do now when there is no treaty at all..not even a hint of one? Papyan is just another fat arse looking to buy another pasty so he needs to say whatever the people paying him want him to say.
        Hayastan or Bust.

        Comment


        • #54
          Re: SEVRES treaty &amp; WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

          Originally posted by Haykakan View Post
          Man you gotta be kidding me. This idiot Papyan is just another delusional idiot who is out of touch with reality and stuck in the past. He keeps bringing up the treaty of Serves as if it has any bearing on anything anymore.
          Speaking of "being stuck in the past," you would think two modern world leaders would have more important matters to attend to. Here you have Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan presenting an original copy of the Moscow Treaty, signed 90-years-ago to the day, to Russian President Demitry Medvedev, along with a commemorative stamp issued in Turkey to mark the 90th anniversary of the illegal treaty.




          You say alliances change well the last time Armenia tried to align itself with the west we lost Cilicia and our western "friends" stood by and watched our genocide unfold. Many of these western stooges like our resident Vrej1915 are paid saboteurs.They will run off to some western country with their pockets full of money as the rest of their people get slaughtered and Armenia is destroyed. Do not be fooled and learn from history. The treaty of Serves was created by the western nations who refused to enforce it. What on earth makes you or anyone else think the west will do anything for us this time? Remember that this was a treaty western powers themselves made yet non of them ever even hinted anything resembling enforcement. Compare that to today where there is no treaty to speak of and unlike the past there are not even any offers nor promises being made by these western states to Armenia. If they left us for dead after failing to enforce a treaty they themselves made, what do you think they will do now when there is no treaty at all..not even a hint of one? Papyan is just another fat arse looking to buy another pasty so he needs to say whatever the people paying him want him to say.

          The Treaty of Sèvres was a pact between the victorious Allied powers and the legitimate government of Ottoman Turkey that provided for an independent Armenia, for an autonomous Kurdistan, and for a Greek presence in eastern Thrace and on the Anatolian west coast, as well as Greek control over the Aegean islands commanding the Dardanelles.

          Under the Treaty of Sèvres, the legitimate government of the Ottomon Empire, the major world (Western) powers, including England, Franch, and Italy recognized Armenia as a free and independent state. US President Woodrow Wilson announced projected boundaries that ceded to Armenia most of the provinces of Erzurum, Trabzon, Van, and Bitlis.

          It was the counter (or illegitimate) government of Mustafa Kemal that rose up and turned the tide against the West, and could not have done it without Moscow's assistance and the arms they provided.

          With the advent of the Russian Revolution (October 1917), Russia withdrew from World War I and ceased hostilities against the Ottoman Empire. The new Soviet regime found itself allied against the West with the Turkish nationalists, who were fighting against both Western domination and the LEGITIMATE Ottoman government that had capitulated to the Western Allies. Diplomatic relations between the Turkish nationalists and the Soviets began in August 1920 and led to the Treaty of Moscow, which settled border disputes by giving Kars and Ardahan to Turkey and by which the Soviets recognized the nationalist leadership under Mustafa Kemal (later styled Kemal Atatürk) as the only government in Turkey. As a result of the treaty, the Soviets supplied the nationalists with weapons and ammunition, which the Turks used successfully in a war against Greece in 1921–22.

          Turkey thereafter switched sides and allied with the same West it was fighting for its survival against, who embraced same Turkey as a buffer against further Soviet expansion.

          In 1945–47 the Soviet Union tried unsuccessfully to reclaim Kars and other Western Armenian lands, although Stalin's goal, according to some sources, was to attach them to the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic.

          Furthermore, let's not forget the dirty game played by Moscow while under Soviet jurisdiction of assigning Karabkah and Nakhijevan to the Azeri Turks, which serves as a basis for our present day conflict even after the decades after the disintegration of the Soviet Union.
          Last edited by Artsakh; 11-03-2015, 06:18 PM.
          BUY "WHO IS MONTE." Proceeds from this film will benefit the families of the fallen soldiers of the Karabagh war. Available at: www.armenianmusic.com

          <<Երբ իրիկունը գլուխներդ դնեք բարծին որ քնանաք, մի քիչ մտածեք ազգի մասին>>
          --ՔԱՋՆ ԱՆԴՐԱՆԻԿ

          Comment


          • #55
            Re: SEVRES treaty &amp; WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

            The common denominator is Russia. Unfortunately, we are stuck with them for the unforeseeable future.

            Comment


            • #56
              Re: SEVRES treaty &amp; WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

              Originally posted by Shant03 View Post
              The common denominator is Russia. Unfortunately, we are stuck with them for the unforeseeable future.
              Yes you are right on both counts there. I wish we could be independent but that is simply not possible now. As for the Sevres treaty and all other treaties, they mean nothing if no one enforces them. It is pointless to dwell on something that is completely hopeless and time along with resources are much better spent on more productive things like nation building. At this point Armenia needs peace and open borders, she has more land then her population can utilize for now. Build a nation and then you can chase dreams of expansion from a position of strength. We must help Armenia develop and grow as much as possible.
              Hayastan or Bust.

              Comment


              • #57
                Re: SEVRES treaty &amp; WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

                Originally posted by Haykakan View Post
                Yes you are right on both counts there. I wish we could be independent but that is simply not possible now. As for the Sevres treaty and all other treaties, they mean nothing if no one enforces them. It is pointless to dwell on something that is completely hopeless and time along with resources are much better spent on more productive things like nation building. At this point Armenia needs peace and open borders, she has more land then her population can utilize for now. Build a nation and then you can chase dreams of expansion from a position of strength. We must help Armenia develop and grow as much as possible.
                Completely agree. Priorities remain at the forefront, and our main focus today should be strengthening Artsakh and injecting economic breathing air into the Armenian republics.

                With regards to Sevres, no one ever invalidated it. The treaty of Lausanne never replaced the treaty of Sevres, but merely reaffirmed the boundaries Turks and Moscow decided amongst themselves whereby Kars, Ardahan, Surmalu, including Mt. Ararat, were handed over to the Turks by Moscow.

                The treaty has not been invalidated by the major (western) powers for a particular reason--as a point of putting pressure on Turkey when, if, and should the time come. This is still a serious source of concern in Ankara.

                Moreover, Armenians aren't alone as regards the treaty of Sevres. There's Kurds and Greece who has stakes there. If we soon get a Kurdish state in Northern Iraq that's internationally recognized, they could pursue the matter. Add to that Armenia and Greece, along with the Turkish Kurds seeking autonomy, Ankara can get into deep sheeeettt.
                BUY "WHO IS MONTE." Proceeds from this film will benefit the families of the fallen soldiers of the Karabagh war. Available at: www.armenianmusic.com

                <<Երբ իրիկունը գլուխներդ դնեք բարծին որ քնանաք, մի քիչ մտածեք ազգի մասին>>
                --ՔԱՋՆ ԱՆԴՐԱՆԻԿ

                Comment


                • #58
                  Re: SEVRES treaty &amp; WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

                  Originally posted by Haykakan View Post
                  Yes you are right on both counts there. I wish we could be independent but that is simply not possible now. As for the Sevres treaty and all other treaties, they mean nothing if no one enforces them. It is pointless to dwell on something that is completely hopeless and time along with resources are much better spent on more productive things like nation building. At this point Armenia needs peace and open borders, she has more land then her population can utilize for now. Build a nation and then you can chase dreams of expansion from a position of strength. We must help Armenia develop and grow as much as possible.
                  Exactly, I bet if we had invested all this time and energy into Armenia itself rather than trying to enforce international laws, we would be in a much better position. Diaspora needs to get hands on in Armenia and put their leverage and resources to use by building it up from internally vs. externally.

                  Comment


                  • #59
                    Սեւր 2-ը` միջազգային քաղաքականության տրամաբանությամբ

                      • ՇԱՀԱՆ ԳԱՆՏԱՀԱՐՅԱՆ, Ազդակ թերթի խմբագիր
                      • Մեկնաբանություն - 10 Օգոստոսի 2017,


                    Սեւրի դաշնագրի մասին հրապարակային վերլուծում կամ պայմանագրի հետ կապված իրադարձությունների այժմեականացման որեւե փորձ անպայման անմիջականորեն կապվում է Վիլսոնի իրավարար վճռի հետ:



                    Այստեղ, նախ եւ առաջ կա զուտ իրավական մեկնաբանության հարց: Իրավարար վճիռը ըստ միջազգային օրենքի անբեկանելի է եւ հետեւաբար ուժի մեջ մտնելու կամ չմտնելու խնդիր չի դիմագրավում, այդ պատճառով էլ այսօր կա իրավագիտական մոտեցում, որ իրավարար վճիռը պարզապես չի գործադրվել եւ ոչ թե անվավեր է նկատվել։



                    Մյուս կողմից, սակայն, կա նաեւ մեկնաբանություն, որ իրավարար վճիռը այս դեպքում տեղադրվում է Սեւրի համաձայնագրի շրջագծում. արդ, եթե Սեւրը իրավականորեն չի վավերացվում եւ փոխարինվում է Լոզանով, հետեւաբար իրավարար վճիռը նաեւ չի ունենում գործադրելիության հանգամանք:



                    Սեւրն ու Լոզանը այս օրերին, անկախ հայկական գործոններից, ստացել են աշխարհքաղաքական օրակարգի տարողություն: Էրդողանը, եթե մի կողմից բողոքում է Լոզանի դեմ, մյուս կողմից Հունաստանի արտգործնախարարը առիթը բաց չի թողում հիշեցնելու, որ եթե Լոզանից դժգոհում են, ապա կարող են վերադառնալ Սեւրին:



                    Ըստ էության սակայն, Սեւրը Թուրքիայի տարածքային ամբողջականությունը խնդրո առարկա դարձնող միջազգային որոշումն է: Եւ այս դեպքում Սեւրն ու Վիլսոնի իրավարար վճիռը պետք է ընկալել իբրեւ մեկ ամբողջություն: Չմոռանանք, որ այս շրջանակներում սահմանագծվել էր նաեւ Քուրդիստանը, որը նաեւ հայկական դիտակետից կարեւոր է, այն առումով, որ սահմանազատում է Հայաստանն ու Քուրդիստանը եւ այդպիսով լուծում նաեւ մեր պատմական տարածքների պատկանելիության խնդիրը ո՛չ միայն Թուրքիայի, այլ նաեւ քրդերի հետ։



                    Այս հանգամանքը կարեւոր է, որովհետեւ տարածք առ տարածք քրդերը, վայելելով միջազգային հովանավորություն, փորձում են քարտեզագրել ամբողջական Քուրդիստանը։ Քրդական գործոնը այսօր, բոլոր ժամանակներից ավելի, վերածվել է աշխարհաքաղաքական գործոնի եւ տարածաշրջանում օգտագործվում է իբրեւ խաղաթուղթ այս կամ այն գերտերության քաղաքականության կիրառման ընթացքում։



                    Սեւրի վերհիշեցումը այս օրերին ամենից առաջ էրդողանական Թուրքիայի մասնատման սպառնալիքն է. այս ուղերձները շատ արագ են ընկալել Անկարայի ղեկավարները, երբ ամեն առիթով խոսում են Թուրքիայի մասնատումը նպատակադրած ուժերի քաղաքականության վտանգների մասին: Այս վտանգների ահազանգումը եթե մի կողմից բացահայտում է որոշ պետությունների ծրագրերը, մյուս կողմից էրդողանական համակարգի կողմից օգտագործվում է `ընդդիմադիր տարրերը չեզոքացնելու համար:



                    Համապատկերը այն է, որ անկախ հայկական գործոնից եւ անկախ մեր բարձրաձայնումներից, Սեւրը թե՛ քաղաքական եւ թե՛ վերլուծական կենտրոնների կողմից այսօր այժմեական երանգներ է ստանում: Եւ պատահական չէ, որ վերջին տասնամյակում հայկական կողմը թե՛ պետական եւ թե՛ հասարակական մակարդակների վրա Սեւրն ու Վիլսոնի վճիռը արծարծում է ամեն պատեհ առիթի: Պետական-հասարակական գնահատականի ամենից հատկանշական բանաձեւումը Հայոց ցեղասպանության 100-րդ տարելիցի առիթով ընդունված համահայկական հռչակագրի բաժինն է Սեւրի եւ Վիլսոնի իրավարար վճռի այժմեական իրավաքաղաքական նշանակությունը ընդգծող:



                    Աշխարհաքաղաքական իրադրությունները այնպես կարող են ընթանալ, որ Սեւրի քաղաքական տրամաբանությունը կարող է վերատիրապետել միջազգային հարաբերությունների վրա. Սեւր 2-ի հեռանկարը խիստ արդիական է այսօր միջազգային քաղաքագիտական տրամաբանությամբ:

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