Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

[Vrej1915]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

25.02.15

Saboteurs as key issue?: Russia, U.S. address fate of two Azeris jailed in Karabakh amid stalled talks


By NAIRA HAYRUMYAN
ArmeniaNow correspondent


Representatives of the foreign-policy departments of Russia and the United State took turns in addressing the problem of two Azerbaijani nationals who were convicted and jailed in Karabakh last year.

Dilham Askerov, 54, and Shahbaz Quliyev, 46, were sentenced to life and 22 years in prison, respectively, after being found guilty on charges that included murder, espionage, illegal border crossing, and illegal weapons possession.

Earlier this year, answering a question of an Azerbaijani journalist, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said that he would discuss the issue of the release of the two Azeri saboteurs to Azerbaijan. He did not deny that one of them, Dilham Askerov, was a citizen of the Russian Federation. Then Russian Foreign Ministry official representative Alexander Lukashevich said that Lavrov’s statement remained in force.

During her tour of the South Caucasus last week, U.S. Assistant Secretary Victoria Nuland also asked the Armenian side to show a “humanitarian gesture” by returning the Azeris to Baku. The same thing was repeated by U.S. Department of State spokesperson Jen Psaki at a press briefing on Monday.

The Armenian society rather harshly reacted to these calls. First, it is noted that both Russia and the United States should advise the leadership of Azerbaijan to turn to the president of Karabakh with a request for extradition. Karabakh is an unrecognized country, but the decision was made by its court, which is independent from Armenia. While Karabakh is also “an Armenian side”, the decision is to be made by the NKR leadership.

Press secretary of the NKR President David Babayan said that the issue is closed, the court has already made its verdict and the convicted saboteurs will serve their sentences in Karabakh. He stressed that they were tried not as hostages or prisoners or war, but as criminals. The court in Stepanakert proved the saboteurs, a group of three (one resisted arrest and was killed by Karabakh forces) committed at least two murders and also wounded one woman.

Secondly, experts say that such a step cannot be a gesture of goodwill, and Azerbaijan will have to be ready to pay for it. What Baku is going to give up in exchange for its men? Especially that, as those present at the trial in Stepanakert said, one of the saboteurs, Askerov, apparently, is an important person for the special services of Azerbaijan and has considerable information.

Armenian analyst Hakob Badalyan believes that Russia was going to “make an operation” on the release of the saboteurs by putting pressure on the Armenian government and thus win the favor of the Azerbaijani leadership. The analyst says that having this information, the United States officially called for the release of the saboteurs in order to also win the favors of Azeri President Ilham Aliyev and prevent the planned “operation” of the Russian side.

There are many versions, but it is clear that the issue of the saboteurs is becoming one of the key issues in the negotiation process on the Karabakh settlement, especially that at the moment the process seems to have been frozen: the proposed settlement options are not considered and the mediators appear to be unable to organize a meeting of the presidents.

One of Armenia’s leading online newspapers, Lragir.am, assumes that Azerbaijan has put a condition to the mediators for the resumption of talks at the highest level and this condition is the return of the saboteurs.

[Artsakh]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

Armenian analyst Hakob Badalyan believes that Russia was going to “make an operation” on the release of the saboteurs by putting pressure on the Armenian government and thus win the favor of the Azerbaijani leadership. The analyst says that having this information, the United States officially called for the release of the saboteurs in order to also win the favors of Azeri President Ilham Aliyev and prevent the planned “operation” of the Russian side.
.

That is about the most illogical reasoning I have ever heard. But, since you are emphasizing it in bold, red letters, for arguments sake lets assume it's true. In such case, do you mind explaining how that makes the U.S. any better than Russia???? I look forward to your enlightenment, thanks!

[Vrej1915]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

That is about the most illogical reasoning I have ever heard. But, since you are emphasizing it in bold, red letters, for arguments sake lets assume it's true. In such case, do you mind explaining how that makes the U.S. any better than Russia???? I look forward to your enlightenment, thanks!

My Dear:
1- Why should we expect the US being better than Russia, specially if from their point of view we are willing slaves of Russia, their rival? There is a big difference between a willing and resisting slave...., thus, blind russophiles like some bright examples here, are double calamities. They encourage more and more russian "betrayals" (since no price to pay, no matter how they betray), and discourage any western help ....

2- The US did not sell 80% of the most lethal, offensive armement to Baku, in the last decade. Russia did. In the next war, most Armenians will be killed by russian made (not CCCP) askolkas...

3- The US does not have any "strategic partenership" with us, Russia does.

4- .........

[Haykakan]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

My Dear:
1- Why should we expect the US being better than Russia, specially if from their point of view we are willing slaves of Russia, their rival? There is a big difference between a willing and resisting slave...., thus, blind russophiles like some bright examples here, are double calamities. They encourage more and more russian "betrayals" (since no price to pay, no matter how they betray), and discourage any western help ....

2- The US did not sell 80% of the most lethal, offensive armement to Baku, in the last decade. Russia did. In the next war, most Armenians will be killed by russian made (not CCCP) askolkas...

3- The US does not have any "strategic partenership" with us, Russia does.

4- .........

This guy destroys his own arguments so many times over...ok so we need to leave Russian orbit and not join the USA(western) orbit. This renders us a sitting duck for the Turk and ISIS. Yeh Vrej your true colors really do shine through along with the crescent. It was exactly this kind of thinking that dominated the dashnak party and destroyed so many Armenian lives and property. All he thinks is Russia is bad and we need to leave her and he has never ever given a single logical alternative. All he does is whine like a baby and produces nothing of value.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

This guy destroys his own arguments so many times over...ok so we need to leave Russian orbit and not join the USA(western) orbit. This renders us a sitting duck for the Turk and ISIS. Yeh Vrej your true colors really do shine through along with the crescent. It was exactly this kind of thinking that dominated the dashnak party and destroyed so many Armenian lives and property. All he thinks is Russia is bad and we need to leave her and he has never ever given a single logical alternative. All he does is whine like a baby and produces nothing of value.

As bright as ever

PS: For You, Dashnak word is a bad adjective.
Hearing your mastermind I always expect the signature of LTP below, or at least the Red Diploma of the Komsomol....
I wonder, how can you explain, that in times of trouble, yourlikes are never on frontlines, and yet the Dashnaks you so much dislike, to drow the borders with their blood....

[Artashes]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

To this, I would just like to add this criminal-safarov-after the heinous crime, after the heros welcome and his glorification by the Azeri govt, and not a peep from US govt. And yet, when killers from Azerbaijan sneak into karabakh, to rob, committ crimes, and mercilessly torture and kill a young 17 year old teenage civilian, the U.S. at its highest levels--including the level of the state department- has the nerve to call on Armenia to release them to azerbaijan as a goodwill gesture???? It defies logic, indeed.

Why did the US not voice the same calls to the Azeri govt when CIVILIANS Manvel saribekyan and Karen petrosyan accidentally crossed over, were humiliated and paraded on Azeri national tv, and then killed mercilessly???
It's right in front of u, in black and white.

My Dear:
1- Why should we expect the US being better than Russia, specially if from their point of view we are willing slaves of Russia, their rival? There is a big difference between a willing and resisting slave...., thus, blind russophiles like some bright examples here, are double calamities. They encourage more and more russian "betrayals" (since no price to pay, no matter how they betray), and discourage any western help ....

2- The US did not sell 80% of the most lethal, offensive armement to Baku, in the last decade. Russia did. In the next war, most Armenians will be killed by russian made (not CCCP) askolkas...

3- The US does not have any "strategic partenership" with us, Russia does.

4- .........

I agree with Artsakh, both the eastern turcs (azer) are criminals and should NOT be let go for all the reasons Artsakh has pointed out (and others).

@ Vrej ... I understand your grievance with Russia, however ... You point out that Russia has supplied 80% of azer arms. What percentage of all the weapons we have are supplied by Russia? And and what cost to us?
Has the USA supplied us with any concrete defense capability?
It's a complicated world and at this time we have a finite number of options, with none of them being ideal.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

I agree with Artsakh, both the eastern turcs (azer) are criminals and should NOT be let go for all the reasons Artsakh has pointed out (and others).

@ Vrej ... I understand your grievance with Russia, however ... You point out that Russia has supplied 80% of azer arms. What percentage of all the weapons we have are supplied by Russia? And and what cost to us?
Has the USA supplied us with any concrete defense capability?
It's a complicated world and at this time we have a finite number of options, with none of them being ideal.

My Dear Ardashes,
What costed us? It costed us independence, > 95% our economic infrastructure, the slightest chance do be a player, while our destiny is being replayed for a third time in less than 150 years....
I think the cost is more than expensive.

Besides, if in place of the russian bullets, we had other backers, lets say Iran, for the most evident exemple..... Russia's borders would be at best in Rostov or Volgograd. They won't be fighting for Khrim or Donetsk, but for the Volga... so it's not like a one way gift we have. We pay very dearly for every single worthy thing we receive.
Most of the things we did received were to begin with nearly scrap metal, specially from the soviet era stockpiles of Akhalkalak or Gyumri. The rest, we paid for. And what we paid is more than enough.
Nearly Nothing exportable was received granted. That's why we still did not received a modern jet squadron.... because Russia asks nearly market price, while it was ready to give it as a gift for a country like Lebanon, not even a friend of Russia... (by the bay the Lebaneese turned to offer back, asking rather for money ), let alone a 'strategic partener'.
The only worthy things, like the S -300 and some others not necessarily publicised yet, were paid for, even at discount, and were nearly forcibly taken by our military, as a cost for Gyumri.
Nothing granted, I can assure you.
The rent of a base like Gyumri, is at least 150 million a year. Just compare to what Russia or the US did pay for much smaller bases in Central Asia...
For the last 20 years, if I am not wrong, that makes at least 3 billion. That's without the political and economic components of Russia's presence in Southern Caucasus.
3 billion is roughly the amount of deals Russia gave to Baku. The only difference is that Baku is not the slave of Russia, and Baku did received state of the art armements, our military did balance by hard work, and not always from Russia....
Just to remind, already disclosed info:
- The Russian shipments of long range MLRS, not only the smerchs, were balanced from China at first place.
- The Russian delivery of 100 state of the art T 90-s were balanced by the Milan systems of NATO....

[Artashes]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

My Dear Ardashes,
What costed us? It costed us independence, > 95% our economic infrastructure, the slightest chance do be a player, while our destiny is being replayed for a third time in less than 150 years....
I think the cost is more than expensive.

Besides, if in place of the russian bullets, we had other backers, lets say Iran, for the most evident exemple..... Russia's borders would be at best in Rostov or Volgograd. They won't be fighting for Khrim or Donetsk, but for the Volga... so it's not like a one way gift we have. We pay very dearly for every single worthy thing we receive.
Most of the things we did received were to begin with nearly scrap metal, specially from the soviet era stockpiles of Akhalkalak or Gyumri. The rest, we paid for. And what we paid is more than enough.
Nearly Nothing exportable was received granted. That's why we still did not received a modern jet squadron.... because Russia asks nearly market price, while it was ready to give it as a gift for a country like Lebanon, not even a friend of Russia... (by the bay the Lebaneese turned to offer back, asking rather for money ), let alone a 'strategic partener'.
The only worthy things, like the S -300 and some others not necessarily publicised yet, were paid for, even at discount, and were nearly forcibly taken by our military, as a cost for Gyumri.
Nothing granted, I can assure you.
The rent of a base like Gyumri, is at least 150 million a year. Just compare to what Russia or the US did pay for much smaller bases in Central Asia...
For the last 20 years, if I am not wrong, that makes at least 3 billion. That's without the political and economic components of Russia's presence in Southern Caucasus.
3 billion is roughly the amount of deals Russia gave to Baku. The only difference is that Baku is not the slave of Russia, and Baku did received state of the art armements, our military did balance by hard work, and not always from Russia....
Just to remind, already disclosed info:
- The Russian shipments of long range MLRS, not only the smerchs, were balanced from China at first place.
- The Russian delivery of 100 state of the art T 90-s were balanced by the Milan systems of NATO....

Your points are well taken and I do not disagree. As I said, our options are limited and none are ideal.
Insofar as Iran as a bullet supplier ... It was you that said --- I'd rather kiss Russia on the lips than deal with Iran.
Hopefully there will come a time when we have options more benificial to our national SOVERIEGNITY and security.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

Your points are well taken and I do not disagree. As I said, our options are limited and none are ideal.
Insofar as Iran as a bullet supplier ... It was you that said --- I'd rather kiss Russia on the lips than deal with Iran.
Hopefully there will come a time when we have options more benificial to our national SOVERIEGNITY and security.

1- I never said we must be enemy of Russia. I said we must not be the slaves. It's not the same thing.

2- To have options, even in the far future, we must keep our DECISION MAKING CAPACITY today, i.e. INDEPENDENCE. And that's exactly what Russia wants to take away from us today, and that's all the point.

3- Once we lose that independence, mostly for 'bad reasons' ( regime willing to survive, and ready to sell their mother for ...), as on Sept 3 2014.... Russia will not hesitate to sell our VITAL interests, our lands, for its bargains with the turks, as it always did in the past.

4- If we are not able to change our internal problems, that is our sick regime, at least, as people, we must be more than rebel minded (and certainly not servile, 'trusted among the trusted') towards Russia. As a matter of fact, due to the disgraceful, and untalented diplomacy of our leadership, we found ourselves once again in the position of sacrificial lamb (Kavutyan Nokhaz), in the latest Russian-Turkish love affair. The situation is such bad, that the only thing that may hold back the russian hand, is the certitude that a renewed Kars treaty will mean necessarily their ousting out of Armenia itself....
For that, the risk must be credible, that is, nor matter ho strong do they keep in hand the Sejiks, Dodi Gagos, Lfiks, Levons...... the Armenian people will not tolerate a russian betrayal, and if even a meter of Artsakh is sold, that will mean ousting of the Russians from ALL of Armenia, and our regime as a gift in their lagages.... .
The cost will be such for Russia, that the game will be worthless....
Ufortunately that's all that is left to us, thanks to the Sejik/Nalbantovs....

[Haykakan]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

My Dear Ardashes,
What costed us? It costed us independence, > 95% our economic infrastructure, the slightest chance do be a player, while our destiny is being replayed for a third time in less than 150 years....
I think the cost is more than expensive.

Besides, if in place of the russian bullets, we had other backers, lets say Iran, for the most evident exemple..... Russia's borders would be at best in Rostov or Volgograd. They won't be fighting for Khrim or Donetsk, but for the Volga... so it's not like a one way gift we have. We pay very dearly for every single worthy thing we receive.
Most of the things we did received were to begin with nearly scrap metal, specially from the soviet era stockpiles of Akhalkalak or Gyumri. The rest, we paid for. And what we paid is more than enough.
Nearly Nothing exportable was received granted. That's why we still did not received a modern jet squadron.... because Russia asks nearly market price, while it was ready to give it as a gift for a country like Lebanon, not even a friend of Russia... (by the bay the Lebaneese turned to offer back, asking rather for money ), let alone a 'strategic partener'.
The only worthy things, like the S -300 and some others not necessarily publicised yet, were paid for, even at discount, and were nearly forcibly taken by our military, as a cost for Gyumri.
Nothing granted, I can assure you.
The rent of a base like Gyumri, is at least 150 million a year. Just compare to what Russia or the US did pay for much smaller bases in Central Asia...
For the last 20 years, if I am not wrong, that makes at least 3 billion. That's without the political and economic components of Russia's presence in Southern Caucasus.
3 billion is roughly the amount of deals Russia gave to Baku. The only difference is that Baku is not the slave of Russia, and Baku did received state of the art armements, our military did balance by hard work, and not always from Russia....
Just to remind, already disclosed info:
- The Russian shipments of long range MLRS, not only the smerchs, were balanced from China at first place.
- The Russian delivery of 100 state of the art T 90-s were balanced by the Milan systems of NATO....

And who guarded the Armenia Turkish border for those 20 years? What is the value of 3million people being alive for 20 years? You are so full of crap I can smell it even on the internet.