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Atheism and being Armenian

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  • #31
    Re: Atheism and being Armenian

    Originally posted by KanadaHye View Post
    Science also maintains false beliefs during a time period until new evidence replaces those beliefs that are proven to be false.

    The question stated is whether or not someone can be atheist and Armenian and it's really a catch 22. Armenians were pagan prior to Christianity and their adoption of Christianity brought ages of enlightenment which was beneficial to the survival of the Armenian people. What is of concern is whether or not an Atheist is denying Armenian history by claiming that Armenia's golden age would have happened with or without the formation of a Christian state. In other words, did Christianity (at the state level) lead to an increase in intelligence or was it bound to happen regardless? Also, I don't see why someone of faith can't follow the scientific method.... science is a profession.
    I think that depends on the individuals that existed within the institution at the time. Do you think there could have been an Armenian Golden Age if the people who ran the Armenian Church ran a hardliner Christian Theocracy that forced everyone to believe what they did on pain of death, and persecuted those who disagreed (including the scientists and philosophers). I doubt there could have been an Armenian golden age without freedom of thought and a certain level of religious freedom. The answer to the question is not so much would there have have been an Armenian Golden Age, as what factors and individuals contributed to the Christian church being so positive for the Armenian society at the time.
    Last edited by hipeter924; 04-25-2011, 11:21 AM.

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    • #32
      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

      Originally posted by hipeter924 View Post
      For many they do, the clergy also being believers, and the clergy guiding the faith of those believers. How can you with knowledge of the Genocide be so ignorant that you fail to realize that Imams called for Muslims to kill the Christians (being Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks), and it was their call and suggestion they would go to heaven that encouraged the Muslims to do so.
      This was more likely due to the divide and conquer schemes planned by outside forces. They had to choose which minorities to pick on to create instability within the Ottoman Empire and Armenians were perfect since they held many high positions. This wasn't based on Armenians being Christians, it was due to Armenians being a threat because of their activity within the empire.
      "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

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      • #33
        Re: Atheism and being Armenian

        Originally posted by KanadaHye View Post
        This was more likely due to the divide and conquer schemes planned by outside forces. They had to choose which minorities to pick on to create instability within the Ottoman Empire and Armenians were perfect since they held many high positions. This wasn't based on Armenians being Christians, it was due to Armenians being a threat because of their activity within the empire.
        True, but none the less the clergy held great influence over the population, and was thus a useful tool of the Young Turks to help spread the word and implement their genocide.

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        • #34
          Re: Atheism and being Armenian

          Originally posted by hipeter924 View Post
          I think that depends on the individuals that existed within the institution at the time. Do you think there could have been an Armenian Golden Age if the people who ran the Armenian Church ran a hardliner Christian Theocracy that forced everyone to believe what they did on pain of death, and persecuted those who disagreed. I doubt there could have been an Armenian golden age without freedom of thought and a certain level of religious freedom. The question is not so much would have have been an Armenian Golden Age, as what factors and individuals contributed to the Christian church being so positive for the Armenian society at the time.
          I don't think Christianity among Armenians was adopted by force, I think it was promoted by setting an example and allowing people to see that it was a better way of life. I also think Paganism had taken Armenians as far as it could and a change in direction was needed to advance. Christians aren't necessarily against progress, they just think there are moral and immoral paths towards advancement. Oh, and George Bush is certainly not considered among Armenians as being a spokesman for Christianity.
          "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

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          • #35
            Re: Atheism and being Armenian

            Originally posted by KanadaHye View Post
            Science also maintains false beliefs during a time period until new evidence replaces those beliefs that are proven to be false.

            The question stated is whether or not someone can be atheist and Armenian and it's really a catch 22. Armenians were pagan prior to Christianity and their adoption of Christianity brought ages of enlightenment which was beneficial to the survival of the Armenian people. What is of concern is whether or not an Atheist is denying Armenian history by claiming that Armenia's golden age would have happened with or without the formation of a Christian state. In other words, did Christianity (at the state level) lead to an increase in intelligence or was it bound to happen regardless? Also, I don't see why someone of faith can't follow the scientific method.... science is a profession.
            I have argued that our religion has been our undoing instead of our salvation before. After adopting Christianity, Armenia as a nation declined and lost statehood. Our empires were all built prior to our conversion to christianity. Religion creates tunnel vision and at times absolute blindness. Religious people either ignore facts or try to twist them to fit their own twisted agenda. The only reason there is a Armenian state today is because of the soviet union which was a athiest structure! I remember living in the soviet union where going to church and practicing religion was allowed-now compare that with theocracies all over the world and how "tolorant" they are of other views. I am not an athiest simply because i cannot prove that a god does not exist-this makes me an agnostic but there is plenty of solid proof about how religion is detrimental not to just armenians but to humanity in general. We armenians along with our culture predate christianity asa matter of fact we have preserved much of our previous religious practices and incoorporated them into our own version of christianity. Things like wishing trees, the blue eye and matagh (ritual sacrifice) are all peagan practices which we still use but have nothing to do with christian teachings. Being Armenian is much more then being christian and it always has been. I understand why diasporans identify so strongly with their church, it is because the church is their connection to all things armenian but this is not how things always were and this is not how things are in Armenia. If we all lived in Armenia this connection to the church would not be as strong because there are so many other ways to express your armenianness. In the diaspora we lack the many things which would allow us to be armenian that are plentifull in Armenia and this lack of things to identify with forces diasporans into the arms of the church where all things related to being armenian outside of armenia are centered on. The strong connection of the diaspora Armenians to their church is explained by the fact that they have no other options since they do not live in a armenian state and whatever resources the diasporans have are poured into church related activities and functions. For the diasporan Armenian there is no other place to go but that is not true if you live in a armenian nation. This is why i stress nationhood because our own identity without a nation becomes limited to a religious sect and nothing more.
            Hayastan or Bust.

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            • #36
              Re: Atheism and being Armenian

              Isn't the end goal to remain Armenian outside of the Armenian territory since it is constantly being invaded and challenged by greater forces? The romanticism that Armenians have created and imagined for the diaspora is that any two Armenians can meet and although having been raised worlds apart, they can still find common ground.
              "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

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              • #37
                Re: Atheism and being Armenian

                Originally posted by KanadaHye View Post
                Isn't the end goal to remain Armenian outside of the Armenian territory since it is constantly being invaded and challenged by greater forces? The romanticism that Armenians have created and imagined for the diaspora is that any two Armenians can meet and although having been raised worlds apart, they can still find common ground.
                No it is not! The end goal is a nation we all would want to live in. The "common ground" you mention will be harder to find the longer we armenians remain separated from one another.
                Hayastan or Bust.

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                • #38
                  Re: Atheism and being Armenian

                  Originally posted by KanadaHye View Post
                  I don't think Christianity among Armenians was adopted by force, I think it was promoted by setting an example and allowing people to see that it was a better way of life. .
                  Most 4th-century Armenians had never even seen a Christian before Christianity was enforced upon them, so it was hardly a case of setting an example and allowing people to see that it was a better way of life. In many parts of Armenia Christanity was adopted and enforced using military force - sometimes involving full-scale battles. Non-christian shrines were atacked and destroyed, sacred statues were smashed, temple lands and temple contents confiscated and distributed to those supporting the Church, and the population was forbidden to practice non-Christian rites. Ironically, because Christianity was forced onto the ordinary peasant population, this resulted in many religious practices from pre-Christian Armenia being preserved within Armenian Christianity. The designs of early churches in Armenia show that most Armenians after Armenia became officially Christian were still not Christians - churches had porticos and external apses because it was recognised that, because a large part of the population was not Christian or had not been properly baptised, they could not enter inside churches.

                  About the Erzinjan region:
                  Given the concentration of the pagan temples and the number of their officiating priests, Christianization was exerted here in a more drastic way than anywhere else. So, in this sector of the Canton of Daranaghik, Gregory and King Tiridates carried out a genuine military expedition. At Tordan they ruined the temple of Barshamin and broke his statue into pieces, they handed out its treasure to the poor and gave its properties to the Church: the inhabitants were ordered to convert. At Ani, they tore down the temple of Dios and gave the town and fortress to the church, then came to attack the temple of Anahit at Erez. They finally destroyed the temple of Nane at T’il.
                  Last edited by bell-the-cat; 04-25-2011, 02:41 PM.
                  Plenipotentiary meow!

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                  • #39
                    Re: Atheism and being Armenian

                    The only reason there is a Armenian state today is because of the soviet union which was a athiest structure
                    Yet the soviet union itself has collapsed.

                    So who forced the majority of Armenians to come back to God and not become atheists or something else. Iím talking about the majority of them.
                    I know the church and the majority of religious people are corrupt but you cannot blame people to go to them looking for guidance.

                    When I talk about clergy people, Iím not talking about just Christians, all clergy (the majority) are corrupt politicians and actors that can be bought with money or seduced by women.
                    Եւ մի տանիր զմեզ ի բորձութիւն
                    Այլ փրկեա ի չարէ:

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                    • #40
                      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

                      Originally posted by hipeter924 View Post
                      The Armenian church preserved Armenian history and culture, but it didn't create most of it (individual Armenians did), there are many Armenian writers, artists and historians (that barely attended or weren't even involved with the Church) that preserved and recorded Armenian history and culture in Western Armenia and Europe, after the Genocide this was mostly lost (and destroyed by the Turks).
                      So according to you these writers, artists and historians were atheists just because they did not attend a church or even evolved with it. Maybe they were muslims or jehovahís witness who knows? Don't give yourselves credits so fast!
                      Եւ մի տանիր զմեզ ի բորձութիւն
                      Այլ փրկեա ի չարէ:

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