Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!)

1] What you CAN NOT post.

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is:
- abusive
- vulgar
- hateful
- harassing
- personal attacks
- obscene

You also may not:
- post images that are too large (max is 500*500px)
- post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or cited properly.
- post in UPPER CASE, which is considered yelling
- post messages which insult the Armenians, Armenian culture, traditions, etc
- post racist or other intentionally insensitive material that insults or attacks another culture (including Turks)

The Ankap thread is excluded from the strict rules because that place is more relaxed and you can vent and engage in light insults and humor. Notice it's not a blank ticket, but just a place to vent. If you go into the Ankap thread, you enter at your own risk of being clowned on.
What you PROBABLY SHOULD NOT post...
Do not post information that you will regret putting out in public. This site comes up on Google, is cached, and all of that, so be aware of that as you post. Do not ask the staff to go through and delete things that you regret making available on the web for all to see because we will not do it. Think before you post!


2] Use descriptive subject lines & research your post. This means use the SEARCH.

This reduces the chances of double-posting and it also makes it easier for people to see what they do/don't want to read. Using the search function will identify existing threads on the topic so we do not have multiple threads on the same topic.

3] Keep the focus.

Each forum has a focus on a certain topic. Questions outside the scope of a certain forum will either be moved to the appropriate forum, closed, or simply be deleted. Please post your topic in the most appropriate forum. Users that keep doing this will be warned, then banned.

4] Behave as you would in a public location.

This forum is no different than a public place. Behave yourself and act like a decent human being (i.e. be respectful). If you're unable to do so, you're not welcome here and will be made to leave.

5] Respect the authority of moderators/admins.

Public discussions of moderator/admin actions are not allowed on the forum. It is also prohibited to protest moderator actions in titles, avatars, and signatures. If you don't like something that a moderator did, PM or email the moderator and try your best to resolve the problem or difference in private.

6] Promotion of sites or products is not permitted.

Advertisements are not allowed in this venue. No blatant advertising or solicitations of or for business is prohibited.
This includes, but not limited to, personal resumes and links to products or
services with which the poster is affiliated, whether or not a fee is charged
for the product or service. Spamming, in which a user posts the same message repeatedly, is also prohibited.

7] We retain the right to remove any posts and/or Members for any reason, without prior notice.


- PLEASE READ -

Members are welcome to read posts and though we encourage your active participation in the forum, it is not required. If you do participate by posting, however, we expect that on the whole you contribute something to the forum. This means that the bulk of your posts should not be in "fun" threads (e.g. Ankap, Keep & Kill, This or That, etc.). Further, while occasionally it is appropriate to simply voice your agreement or approval, not all of your posts should be of this variety: "LOL Member213!" "I agree."
If it is evident that a member is simply posting for the sake of posting, they will be removed.


8] These Rules & Guidelines may be amended at any time. (last update September 17, 2009)

If you believe an individual is repeatedly breaking the rules, please report to admin/moderator.
See more
See less

The Ottomans

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #11
    Re: The Ottomans

    Originally posted by ZAYRAVAST
    I think the majority of the guys here are jumping to conclusions without balancing the facts.
    1.- ofcourse the christian minority was paing more/higher taxes than the rest of muslim ottomans because they weren angaged directly with "long lasting millitary obligations" .The armenians were exempt of millitary duty(depending time section this could lasted 4-6 years of duration), finally the armenians were concentrated in their business activities from where they had the opportunity to gain more money than the rest of the muslims..so they may pay higher taxes obviously.

    Even if you don't count all the Turks/Muslims that were in the army, they still outnumbered Armenians by a large margin, so what excuse do you have for all those Muslims that were not in the army? That is a very moot point. They simply were not educated at nearly the same level that Armenians were (proportionally speaking, of course).



    Originally posted by ZAYRAVAST
    2.- the the beginning of XX century is obviously different than pre-ottoman era....when you look 1880 onwards the Otto. empaire had nothing left but national debths to pay..there were no money left to pay to the western countries to close Ottomans debths....this was the correct time to take the famous SILK ROAD COMMERCIAL BENEFIT from the armenians and give to the ottoman financers....".Who were the banckers of the empair "the bodies that financed during the Ottoman high time now wanted ALL THE MONEY BACK....logicly for the cost of armenians ofcourse..who else??..the ones who had the money in the first place ...since the rest of muslims were engaged with warfare ,were low income stock....ofcourse the debth of Ottoman empair had no justification of looting armenians belongings.....the looters mad a plan to control the silk road business venture...and they did it....finally "the banckers" had to pay a heavy ransom in 1930-45 in other part of the world....this was perhaps Gods mighty judgment..DO YOU THINK ANY ONE WHO STARTED THIS GREATE POLITICAL PROBLEM WILL NOT HAVE PEACFUL REST IN THIS WORLD...I SAY IF WE ALL BELIVE IN GOD WE OLSO BELIVE TO HIS JUDGMENT WHICH NO ANY BODY CAN ESCAPE IT.....ANY ONE IN THIS WORLD SHOULD RESPECT THE OTHER AND IF NECESSARY SHOULD PAY APPOLOGY TO SAVE ITS FUTURE.....
    Its true that the Ottomans of the early 20th century might have thought they were inheriting a rich trade route by killing the Armenians, but they were blind to see that they were also killing their most talented businessmen and a large part of their professionals, and Anatolia's economy basically collapsed because of it. They are still barely recovering from this massive blunder.


    And if you keep bringing up "God's judgement" then I'm going to have to respectfully stop conversing with you. I don't want to open this large can of worms, but lets just say that I don't share your views about the universe, and it is absurd to come to conclusions based on such vague reasoning.

    Comment


    • #12
      Re: The Ottomans

      Originally posted by ZAYRAVAST
      " I dont care if any one understands the "gods judgments"...
      My point is that if God is omnipotent, a mere human would not be able to comprehend his master-plan for the universe, and this includes you. To try and claim that you know or understand God's judgement is nonsensical.


      And originally, I was only trying to point out that your claim of "God's judgement" as the cause of the Armenian genocide is about as rational as radical evangelical preachers who claim that 9/11 was caused by homosexuals and abortionists, rather than by people flying planes into buildings. You are just shifting the blame of the genocide from Turks onto something unexplainable, which is asinine and regressive.


      But anyways, we are not going to make any progress if we continue discussing the supernatural, you can open a separate thread if you want to discuss it. Lets just stick with the Ottomans here.
      Last edited by ArmSurvival; 04-03-2008, 11:37 AM.

      Comment


      • #13
        Re: The Ottomans

        The Ottomans called the Armenians the "loyal" millet or community.

        Comment


        • #14
          Re: The Ottomans

          Yea, but when a couple of thousand Ottoman-Armenians defected to the Russian side, they decided to punish every Armenian they could get their hands on, which was in the millions, most of which were women, children and the elderly. So its too bad the loyalty wasn't mutual.

          Comment


          • #15
            Re: The Ottomans

            Originally posted by ArmSurvival View Post
            Yea, but when a couple of thousand Ottoman-Armenians defected to the Russian side, they decided to punish every Armenian they could get their hands on, which was in the millions, most of which were women, children and the elderly. So its too bad the loyalty wasn't mutual.
            of course it wasn't an arangement between more or less equal partners. The Ottomans found the Armenians the most accomodating of the subject peoples. But after losing territories in the Balkans, they became very paranoid. The slightest sign of 'disloyalty' by Armenians was seen as a serious threat

            Comment


            • #16
              Re: The Ottomans

              You are correct, lampron. The Ottomans couldn't understand that Armenians did not want to destroy the Turks, they simply wanted their traditional homeland as either an autonomous region or an independent state. When the Ottoman authorities began exiling all Armenians, they realized that independence was the only option.

              Comment


              • #17
                Re: The Ottomans

                Originally posted by ZAYRAVAST
                you make errors you commit sins you will be punished ....you help people unrequitedly you will rewarded....havent you experienced yet !!!...it applies to human and nations.....all they PAY IT FINALLY, dont coment on it

                What you said is just a theory. There are millions of examples of horrible people who did not pay for any of their crimes. The fact that politicians and businessmen rule the world already says a lot about this theory.



                Originally posted by ZAYRAVAST
                it couldnt be pure coincedence ...it doesnt make any sense your statment

                I never said anything about coincidence... you obviously didn't understand my statement.



                Originally posted by ZAYRAVAST
                you make errors you commit sins you will be punished

                So you're trying to say that Armenians did something to "deserve" the genocide. Again, you are justifying what the Turks have done and are throwing the blame on Armenians. Regressive, uninformed, borderline treasonous; there are a hundred negative ways to sum up your line of thinking.

                It doesn't mean that Armenians shouldn't recognize their mistakes when they commit them, but to say that the Turks were justified, and justified by divine right, to commit genocide against us, is as regressive an idea as I have seen.

                Comment


                • #18
                  Re: The Ottomans

                  To lampron
                  I just do not understand, what is your deal about Armenians being good or bad about Ottomans?
                  Try to understand the simple thing, it is a natural desire for a self respecting nation to seek its Independence, no matter how good were Ottomans for Armenians it is about freedom and dignity.
                  Do you consider your subjects as sheep's? Who do you think you nation was to had a right to control the destiny of other nations? Stop this bull sheet!
                  I really hate this worldwide Hippocratic mindset. From one side a nation has a right for self determination and from the other....
                  Well f..k Turkey trying to suppress Kurds
                  f..k GB trying to suppress Zimbabwe
                  f..k China for Tebet
                  f..k USA for IRAK and Mideastern
                  f..k Russia for Chechnya
                  f..k all those who are trying suppress weaker!
                  Last edited by Artandsky; 04-09-2008, 01:24 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #19
                    Re: The Ottomans

                    Well I'm actually glad that I misunderstood you. But you have to understand that when you speak vaguely then it becomes easy to misunderstand your statements.


                    Originally posted by ZAYRAVAST
                    lets think why the armenians had to pay 1,5 million ransom ....have we betrayed our church,our christian belif.... we misuse THE GIVEN DIVINE power that GOD gave us ,and colobrate with EVIL TO get off with a whole skin...because it was easy......"
                    Please get real. Armenians had several successful states (and an empire) before Christianity even existed. Again, lets stick to real events instead of theorizing about the unknown.




                    Originally posted by ZAYRAVAST
                    but Iam stating that the sins will be punished .....blood will be paid by blood....

                    Yes, the perpetrators and deniers of the genocide will pay.

                    Comment


                    • #20
                      Re: The Ottomans

                      Originally posted by Artandsky View Post
                      To lampron
                      I just do not understand, what is your deal about Armenians being good or bad about Ottomans?
                      Try to understand the simple thing, it is a natural desire for a self respecting nation to seek its Independence, no matter how good were Ottomans for Armenians it is about freedom and dignity.
                      Do you consider your subjects as sheep's? Who do you think you nation was to had a right to control the destiny of other nations? Stop this bull sheet!
                      I really hate this worldwide Hippocratic mindset. From one side a nation has a right for self determination and from the other....
                      Well f..k Turkey trying to suppress Kurds
                      f..k GB trying to suppress Zimbabwe
                      f..k China for Tebet
                      f..k USA for IRAK and Mideastern
                      f..k Russia for Chechnya
                      f..k all those who are trying suppress weaker!
                      This thread is about Ottoman and Armenian history. My point is that today the Ottomans are seen as perpetrators of genocide and the destroyers of Armenian civilization in Anatolia.
                      But 200 or 300 years ago Armenians might have seen the Ottomans differently. Not necessarily positively, but also not as negatively as today. Remember at the peak of their power the Ottomans were landing troops on the Italian peninsula. It is even possible that some Armenians in the empire were proud of the Ottomans. Human beings become attracted to those who are powerful or successful
                      As for today, yes Turkey has been violating rights of ethnic communities. And Tibet deserves to have real autonomy. But this thread is about history.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X