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    Thread: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

    1. #151
      Secure The Victory! crusader1492's Avatar
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      Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

      Quote Originally Posted by gmd View Post
      Military training can help instill a sense of patriotism especially for diaspora Armenians who are volunteers. Even if there is a possibility of some Armenians joining who have other agendas it would be wise to limit security access accross the board for any non-citizen Armenians who train for service.
      In the US military for example how many average soldiers have access to secret information that a foreign intelligence service would not be able to get on their own?
      You know, to join the US military, you do not have to be a US citizen. However, you cannot get a sectret security clearance. The same is true if you have dual citizenship.

      Anyway, I love the idea of having a diaspora military training program. I've actually brought this up in the past...if the Israelis can do it, why can't Armenia.

      I would volunteer in a heartbeat.
      ԼՈԼ, Փեփսի Ատտիքթ

    2. #152
      The Resurrection Armenian's Avatar
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      Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

      Quote Originally Posted by crusader1492 View Post
      It looks like the progeny of AK-47 and an M16. It's overall design resembles and AK-47, but the calliber is more in line with an M-16. It looks like it could be a highly reliable and accurate weapon. I like it.
      Nothing about the firearm looks like an M-16, and it only vaguely resembles the Russian AK series. The ammunition in question is actually the same as the Russian standard 5.45 mm round for the AKM-74.

      AKM 74 rifle with its creator



      5.45 mm ammunition

      Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

      Նժդեհ


      Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

    3. #153
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      Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

      Quote Originally Posted by Armenian View Post
      Nothing about the firearm looks like an M-16, and it only vaguely resembles the Russian AK series. The ammunition in question is actually the same as the Russian standard 5.45 mm round for the AKM-74.

      AKM 74 rifle with its creator



      5.45 mm ammunition

      I never said it looked like an M16...it looks similar to an AK. To what degree it does is anyones opinion. I happen to see salient similarities such as the closed bolt design, magazine, bayonet attachment, wood motif and the collapsable buttstock.

      The Vahan's similarity to the M16 is that it requires similar round as the standard 5.56 NATO round...a smaller round that enables the weapon to have greater accuracy at longer distances than a 7.62 mm round.

      That's all Armenian...geez!
      Last edited by crusader1492; 10-14-2008 at 07:50 AM.
      ԼՈԼ, Փեփսի Ատտիքթ

    4. #154
      Registered User ZORAVAR's Avatar
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      Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

      It has the same caliber as the AK-74 (5.45x39).
      It uses the same magazine.
      It also has the same folding metallic stock as the AKMS.
      It can take the standard AK bayonet.
      It can also mount the same GP-25 underbarrel 40mm grenade launcher (as the AK).

      Apart from the above, there does not seem to be any other commonalities with the Avtomat Kalashnikov series of rifles. The mechanism (action) is completly different.

      It can also be chambered for the M-16 round (5.56x45). But no other similarity with the American rifle.

      I don't know how good it is. Also, I don't know if the claims made on the website and youtube are true. Unclear if the project is supported/funded by the Armenian defense ministry.

      But I am glad (and proud) that we have talented people like him.
      Last edited by ZORAVAR; 10-14-2008 at 07:54 AM.

    5. #155
      The Resurrection Armenian's Avatar
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      Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

      Quote Originally Posted by crusader1492 View Post
      That's all Armenian...geez!
      What?! What are you upset about?
      Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

      Նժդեհ


      Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

    6. #156
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      Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

      Quote Originally Posted by Armenian View Post
      What?! What are you upset about?
      Ahh, that was just a tounge-in-cheek response to what I thought was a dissmisive post by you.

      Plus, I'm frustrated because I can't find any cheap flights to Yerevan for next month.
      ԼՈԼ, Փեփսի Ատտիքթ

    7. #157
      Սպարապետ Federate's Avatar
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      Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

      Quote Originally Posted by Federate View Post
      Three Azerbaijani army soldiers die during trainings in Nakhchivan - UPDATED
      Scratch three more.
      ------------------------------
      Three Azerbaijani servicemen die - UPDATED


      Military expert Uzeir Jafarov told Day.Az that he knows the name of one of the deceased servicemen.

      He said soldier Melikov Ibrahim Seyidahmed oghlu, born in 1988 and recruited by the Khachmaz region military enlistment office, died.

      According to U.Jafarov, the senior lieutenant, who died in the infantry combat vehicle, is from Tovuz, while the third member of the crew is from Salyani.

      According to him, the exploded infantry combat vehicle was brought to Azerbaijan last year along with the T-72 tank, which had exploded in Nakhchivan 20 days before.

      -------------
      13:35

      Three Azerbaijani servicemen of N military unit, dislocated in Shemkir, died in a result of a fire in the infantry combat vehicle during trainings, reports Day.Az with reference to unofficial sources.

      Reports say that one of the servicemen was an officer, recruited by Tovuz military enlistment office.

      It should be noted that officials do not confirm or rebut the information.

      20 days ago similar accident occurred in Nakhchivan, where three servicemen died in a tank during trainings after which, information that Azerbaijani Defense Ministry buys old tanks appeared in the press.

      /Day.Az/

      Baboon source

    8. #158
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      Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

      Quote Originally Posted by Federate View Post
      Scratch three more.
      ------------------------------

      This is actually bad news...that's one less armored vehicle that Armenian forces could have captured and used against the enemy.
      ԼՈԼ, Փեփսի Ատտիքթ

    9. #159
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      Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

      They just keep killing themselves...
      -----------------------
      Azerbaijani army soldier killed - UPDATED

      There was no incident in N military unit in Naftalan, said spokesman for Azerbaijan's Defense Ministry Eldar Sabiroghlu.

      He said the case with the death of a soldier occurred due to the non-observation of the security measures.

      "Soldier Ushubov Jahangir Amirulla oghlu, 1988, recruited by the military enlistment office of Sabirabad in 2008, shot at his fellow-in-arms Shahbazov Abdulahad Eldar oghlu, born in 1988, recruited by the military enlistment office of Fizuli in 2007, due to the non-observation of security measures. Shahbazov died in the result", said Sabiroghlu.

      He noted that a criminal proceeding was instituted into the case and Ushubov was detained.

      Baboon source

    10. #160
      Registered User Eric's Avatar
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      Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

      Israel selling weapons to Azerbaijan fuels possibility of new war


      http://photos.day.az/images/122467/83.jpg

      A dangerous pattern is emerging in the Caucasus with new reports that Israel is continuing to sell advanced military armaments to Azerbaijan, costing hundreds of millions of dollars, said Jirair Haratunian, former Chairman of the Armenian Assembly of America Board of Directors, in a column entitled "Dangerous Endorsement: More Israeli Military Arms sold to Azeris as xxxish lobby backs Azerbaijan," the Assembly told PanARMENIAN.Net.

      The commentary continues, “These military sales are an incendiary fuse in a volatile South Caucasus where a startled world just witnessed a short bloody war between Russia and Georgia and where Moscow’s recognition of the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia has altered the geopolitical landscape in the region, perhaps permanently.

      Ironically, Israelis who condemn Iran and Syria for arming Hamas and Hezbullah have now become serious arms merchants selling an array of offensive weapons to Azerbaijan. They sell these arms at a time when Ilham Aliyev, the President of Azerbaijan, has repeatedly threatened to recapture Nagorno Karabakh by military force. Moreover, there are more than military sales binding Israel to Azerbaijan these days. On October 2, an Azeri journal, DAY AZ, published an interview with Joseph Shagal, a deputy in the Israeli Knesset and chairman of the Israel-Azerbaijan Inter-Parliamentary Group, who said, "Both economic associations and military alliances are possible with such a partner as Azerbaijan." Shagal asserted that arms sales by Israel are strictly controlled by the government. He then added, "Israel will never supply arms to a country if this can affect the security of neighboring states." This man has apparently been deaf to Aliyev’s many bellicose threats to reignite war with Nagorno Karabakh.

      As these developments have become public, one obvious question arises: Has the Bush Administration been complicit in these Israeli arms sales or just acquiescent? In either case, the result is the same. Admittedly the U.S. has issued tepid cautions against the use of force in the Caucasus, but these have not worked. Proof is the failed Georgian military episode in South Ossetia that upset regional stability and created fears of a new Cold War. What is required now is a resolute and unambiguous declaration that the United States opposes any new arms race in the Caucasus region and will oppose the use of force in unresolved conflicts. However, neither Vice President Richard Cheney nor Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte made such a statement during their back-to-back visits to Baku in September.

      Unfortunately, Israel’s growing economic ties and military support of Azerbaijan have now been followed by promises from the American xxxish Committee (AJC) to lobby for Azerbaijan. This commitment was announced in Baku by David Harris, AJC's Chairman, who visited there at the invitation of Azeri President Ilhan Aliyev. With unashamed praise for upholding religious freedom, Harris said: "Religious tolerance in Azerbaijan is a model for the entire world." Harris is either unaware or callous about Azerbaijan's murderous pogroms of Armenians in Sumgait and Baku during the days when the Soviet Union was in the process of imploding. And he is apparently ignorant about the more recent cultural felony committed in Julfa by Azerbaijan’s military in which they destroyed hundreds of Khachkars, intricately-carved tombstones, in an Armenian cemetery that dates back to medieval times.

      Harris went further. He said, "The AJC has long appreciated the importance of Azerbaijan as a true friend of the United States and Israel." He told reporters that he had discussed the Nagorno Karabakh issue at length and, in particular, the negotiating role of the OSCE's Minsk Group. He promised to urge the United States to pay more attention "to improve the OSCE Minsk Group’s mission." In light of Harris’s unabashed bias towards Baku, this promise will have to be carefully monitored. Finally, Harris paid tribute to his hosts with these words, "We have valued this opportunity to learn more about this strong ally in a challenging and critical region. We look forward to sharing our views about Azerbaijan's key role when we return to the United States."

      Thus, we witness a disturbing combination of arms sales to Azerbaijan, possible military ties with Israel, and vocal support for Baku by AJC, one of the largest and most influential xxxish advocacy groups in America. These developments are scarcely known or understood by the rank and file of the xxxish community. They are unaware of the way in which the intrusion of Israel and the AJC into the volatile region of the Caucasus heightens the possibility of war. They don't realize that only a fragile ceasefire line separates Azeri and Armenian military forces and that arming and encouraging a saber rattling leader in Azerbaijan only fuels the possibility of a new war.”

      http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=27375
      All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
      Edmund Burke

    11. #161
      Registered User ZORAVAR's Avatar
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      Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

      The Israeli Connection



      Israeli made AEROSTAR unmanned aerial vehicle on parade in Baku

      The smaller Israeli UAV (ORBITER) mounted on UAZ vans during the same parade


      Made in Israel 300mm rocket launcher mounted on a Russian KAMAZ truck


      Another Israeli made rocket launcher (160mm) in Baku


      The third member of the family of Israeli made rocket launchers. This is the 122mm


      Israeli made TAVOR assult rifles in the hands of Azeri special forces

      During the past couple of years, Georgia and Azerbaijan have been buying significant amount of weapons from Israel.
      Is it pure business for the Israelis or....
      Last edited by ZORAVAR; 10-19-2008 at 09:45 AM.

    12. #162
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      Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

      Quote Originally Posted by ZORAVAR View Post
      The Israeli Connection



      Israeli made AEROSTAR unmanned aerial vehicle on parade in Baku

      The smaller Israeli UAV (ORBITER) mounted on UAZ vans during the same parade


      Made in Israel 300mm rocket launcher mounted on a Russian KAMAZ truck


      Another Israeli made rocket launcher (160mm) in Baku


      The third member of the family of Israeli made rocket launchers. This is the 122mm


      Israeli made TAVOR assult rifles in the hands of Azeri special forces

      During the past couple of years, Georgia and Azerbaijan have been buying significant amount of weapons from Israel.
      Is it pure business for the Israelis or....
      Zoravar, how would you assess the performance of the TAVOR?
      And one more question, the unmanned AEROSTAR aircraft seems to be highly appreciated, but do you think that its full potential could be used in a landscape such as that in Artsakh?
      Thank you in advance

    13. #163
      Registered User ZORAVAR's Avatar
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      Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

      Meline,

      The TAVOR is not something unique or revolutionary. It is a "bullpup" configured assault rifle. That means the trigger is moved forward of the magazine. That kind of arrangement shortens the overall length of the weapon by around 15-20 cm. That compactness is the advantage over other weapons. It is not more powerfull or more accurate than a similar firearm of conventional design (such as the Kalashnikov or M-16) using the same ammunition. On the other hand, the "bullpup" configuration brings disadvantages as well (such as less comfort, incompatibility with lefthanded shooters etc.). It is an expensive gun, probably costs over $2000 (compare that with an Kalashnikov at around $500).

      Changing a conventional firearm to "bullpup" is not that difficult. I know people who have re-arranged their guns by themselves at home. Armenia also produces its own "bullpup" configured assault rifle. It is based on the AK-74 (Kalashnikov series) and is called the K-3. It is more compact than the AK while being shorter. Being costly, it is issued only to the special forces.

      Here is a photo of our K-3


      More details about the TAVOR: http://world.guns.ru/assault/as30-e.htm

      As for the AEROSTAR and UAVs in general:

      The ones Baku posesses are not armed. They are used for reconnaissance and target location. Think of them as an oversized remote controlled plane that you can buy at some specialized shops. They have a video-camera with a direct link to an operator who can see the enemy's positions and call in artillery or airstrikes to eliminate them. In the past, these aerial reconnaissance duties were done by manned aircraft. So, the use of a UAV is not only cheaper, but also does not expose human pilots to enemy anti-air fire. A good idea that has received a lot of attention in general because it is "cool" or "hi-tech".

      It has been very successfull against oponents who don't have much of an air defense (such as the Israelis against Hezbollah in 2006 and the Americans against the Taliban in 2001). However, when the opnent has a sophisticated and capable air defense network consisting of surface to air missiles and fighter interceptors, the life-span of a slow flying UAV will be very short. The Georgians lost almost all of their Israeli made HERMES UAVs (which are bigger and more capable than the AEROSTAR and ORBITER of the Azeris) before and during the August conflict.

      The Azeris have a limited number of UAVs and our anti-air defenses are capable of minimizing the amount of recon missions they can do over our lands.

      For your entertainment, here is a video of an Iraqi Mig-25 shooting an American PREDATOR UAV (a model armed with air-air missiles) in 2002: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWUR3sgKUV8

      And here is a video of an Israeli made Georgian HERMES UAV being shot down by a Russian or Abkhazian Mig-29 before the summer conflict: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk_lmAZInZ4

      As you can see, UAVs are good to film their own death as well

      To fully appreciate the value of a UAV. I suggest you also watch this short clip (a commercial for a Russian made UAV) in which it is photographing the take-off of a Tu-22M3 BACFIRE bomber: http://www.pwgs.org/video/irkut-850.wmv

    14. #164
      Սպարապետ Federate's Avatar
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      Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

      Azerbaijan to cut military spending
      20 October 2008 [16:19] - Today.Az
      Azerbaijan has cut defense and security spending outlook by 10.3% in the 2009 state budget blueprint, compared to the approved forecast for 2008.

      Zahid Oruj, member of a parliamentary commission for defense and security, told APA-ECONOMICS that AZN 1 205.520 million is earmarked for next year.

      "Of this, AZN 1 115.948 million will go to defense forces, AZN 84.561 million to national security, AZN 2.633 million to applied research and AZN 2.379 million to other expenses. The reason for a year-over-year decline in defense spending is that fixed capital investment was made in previous years. However, the defense sector will be in the focus of attention and social security of service men will be further improved," he added.

      In the category of Defense Expenditures, the year-over-year decline was 19% for defense forces, 12% for national security, 31% for other subcategories and 2% for applied research.

      The draft budget has been submitted to the parliament for approval last week.

      /APA/

      Baboon source http://www.today.az/news/business/48359.html

    15. #165
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      Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

      Ok... they didn't cut anything. Don't get to excitied
      They are actually increasing spending.
      http://www.azg.am/EN/2008101602

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