Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Chubs]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I don't get it. Its a lie. It's a typo. It's a mathematical mistake. Which one is it.

I'm not telling you it was 20 meters, it was the MOD of Artsakh. I seriously doubt news.am would accidently write the wrong number on such sensitive bit of information. They're not school children.

Not every single part of the trench system is occupied by people. There are strong points and points that are completely empty. Foot by foot, there's probably more trench that is empty than is occupied. Also any fighting position on the front line is usually hardened against fragmentation or blast effects.(bunkers)

Never said you were saying that, sorry if you got the wrong idea

All I know, is that it was NOT 20 meters. Armenian news outlets always have stupid typos in their articles, and sometimes have horribly translated sentences, I wouldn't put it past em. For all we know, it could be 200 meters, or 2000 meters, the former still makes no sense, while the latter seems more accurate

Yes, in some parts of some trenches, there are bunkers, but most of the trenches are just 7ft of dirt. If it fell 20 meters from them, it would have fallen directly on their positions. Both sides have admitted that the helicopter has crashed on Karabakhs side, while only a handful of Azeri news outlets actually claim it landed in Azerbaijan. As seen in the video, its clear, the helicopter landed nowhere near the troops who shot it down. Was that a secondary Azeri trench? I dont know, all I know, is that it wasn't 20 meters away from soldiers.

well, i hope for their sake that MoD has learned something from this. That was pretty freaking stupid. How can you possibly think going with helicopters near the enemy's line of contact, is a good idea, during wartime? (yes, there's still a war going on, folks, albiet a low-level one), unless you actually WANT to go there, and blow things up, which they were not doing. They were training FFS.

Perhaps its because in the most recent meetings, both sides agreed to refrain from using anti-air near the border (MANPADS).

MoD wanted to test Azerbaijan's commitment to that agreement, and they miscalculated. Azeris didn't go through with it, and the helicopter was shot down.

[gokorik]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Never said you were saying that, sorry if you got the wrong idea

All I know, is that it was NOT 20 meters. Armenian news outlets always have stupid typos in their articles, and sometimes have horribly translated sentences, I wouldn't put it past em. For all we know, it could be 200 meters, or 2000 meters, the former still makes no sense, while the latter seems more accurate

Yes, in some parts of some trenches, there are bunkers, but most of the trenches are just 7ft of dirt. If it fell 20 meters from them, it would have fallen directly on their positions. Both sides have admitted that the helicopter has crashed on Karabakhs side, while only a handful of Azeri news outlets actually claim it landed in Azerbaijan. As seen in the video, its clear, the helicopter landed nowhere near the troops who shot it down. Was that a secondary Azeri trench? I dont know, all I know, is that it wasn't 20 meters away from soldiers.

Ok my bad. I though you were saying I needed to get use to the metric system. I'm not trying to call you out, I just want to understand how you can be so sure that it wasn't 20 meters. I guess my question is what are you basing you statement on? Is it a feeling or did you read something I haven't?

If anyone's on sentry duty on the front line I'm gona guess they're in a bunker. I could be wrong.

[Federate]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Nightvision!

One more picture. Razm.info describes these guys as special forces (հատուկճոկատայիններ).

[ArmeniaSacra]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

i personally have a different opinion than the ones u guys are stating...i think what azerbaijan actually did was a very stupid move. Flying across the frontline is one if the most effective ways of gathering intelligence...and this was being utilized by the azeris...so what did they do? What did they achieve? They know very well that our army has its orders and the boys on the frontline are praying for an azeri heli or warplane to come near the border to settle the score...so basically what they accomplished is to limit their own flyby-s on our borders...and limit their intelligence gathering ability and the utilization of their own airforce on our borders...
One of the armenian officials in the ministry of defense argued shortly after the incidence that there is now a "no fly zone" on karabakh...bt tht no fly zone is for azeri airforce only...i guess this is what he meant by that...true it cost us a heli and 3 good man...but now we have an entire azeri airforce that has set forward new rules of engagement, which prevents itself, before others, from flying along the border...

[Chubs]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

i personally have a different opinion than the ones u guys are stating...i think what azerbaijan actually did was a very stupid move. Flying across the frontline is one if the most effective ways of gathering intelligence...and this was being utilized by the azeris...so what did they do? What did they achieve? They know very well that our army has its orders and the boys on the frontline are praying for an azeri heli or warplane to come near the border to settle the score...so basically what they accomplished is to limit their own flyby-s on our borders...and limit their intelligence gathering ability and the utilization of their own airforce on our borders...
One of the armenian officials in the ministry of defense argued shortly after the incidence that there is now a "no fly zone" on karabakh...bt tht no fly zone is for azeri airforce only...i guess this is what he meant by that...true it cost us a heli and 3 good man...but now we have an entire azeri airforce that has set forward new rules of engagement, which prevents itself, before others, from flying along the border...

In fast movers, but in helicopters? Thats the dumbest way.

That was a rebuttal to the Azeri government who declared a no fly zone over NKR.

That still doesn't explain why they still had MANPADS on the border, and that doesn't explain why our choppers were even taking that route.

While I agree that have limited themselves when it comes to movement of their airforce, it still doesn't explain some things that are key to finding out why this happened

Ok my bad. I though you were saying I needed to get use to the metric system. I'm not trying to call you out, I just want to understand how you can be so sure that it wasn't 20 meters. I guess my question is what are you basing you statement on? Is it a feeling or did you read something I haven't?

If anyone's on sentry duty on the front line I'm gona guess they're in a bunker. I could be wrong

Why am I so sure? Because Azerbaijan would have dead soldiers if it fell 20 meters away from the "adversary".

When they say "adversary", they are not talking about a group of soldiers, but rather their set positions. With our trenches at least, they come with barracks, an armory, maybe a small stone bunker. Azeri trenches are designed a little differently, with a circular trench designed in the middle, acting as a blind spot (Remember the SF hetq interview? The operator described the conscripts hiding in the blind spot) with holes for PKMs and AKs. Then, their trenches span out from there. If it landed 20 meters away from the "adversary" it would have landed in Azeri territory.

You saw the explosion, that would kill anyone within 100 meters, injuring within at least 150-200 meters.

Look, there are only two possible explanations for what happened:

1. Azerbaijan had anti-air troops stationed in a frontline trench, who convienetly shot down a helicopter flying in formation along Armenian trenches

2. Armenian helis headed into Azerbaijan territory, conducted a suicide run, and one was shot down, landing in an Azeri trench. This means that Azerbajani media outlets were correct, and all the others were wrong. This also means, the Armenian government lied about the crash site and where its position was.

Which seems more likely to you? Use reason, not assumptions. Do you honestly think, that two hinds would conduct a suicide run, unarmed, into Azerbaijani territory..just.because?

or

do you think that Armenian helicopters were flying near the frontline, unarmed, and were shot down by Azeri troops, who continued to fire on the crash site in an attempt to keep investigators from the helicopter and possibly Armenian troops?

[londontsi]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

(Remember the SF hetq interview? The operator described the conscripts hiding in the blind spot) with holes for PKMs and AKs. Then, their trenches span out from there. If it landed 20 meters away from the "adversary" it would have landed in Azeri territory.

Can you provide a reference link to this, thanks

.

[Chubs]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Can you provide a reference link to this, thanks

.

I apologize, the term used was "blindage"

http://hetq.am/eng/news/56053/reconn...r-actions.html

[Eddo211]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Bro, watch the video again. I'm going to take a guess that the helicopters is flying at 50m or under, which is standard for helicopters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nap-of-the-earth Helicopter NOE flying

No, I see them at 500-400ft (152meters) altitude above terrain and airspeed not much more than 80 knots....once hit in thre cabin the fire would have reached the flying pilot. I see the helicopter descending at a rate of 700 ft/min in a shallow turn (5 to 15 degrees).
My point is it doesn't matter where the aircraft crashed but where it was hit.

Also t\your link is funny......NAP OF THE EARTH? lol, its map of the earth not nap. You take a nap you die flying tree tops bellow canyons, ect. You need to know that the Armenian choppers were not flying under the Radar, map of the earth.

So your saying as it fell 50 meters is 2-3 seconds, it managed to completely change direction and cover~ 140 meters towards the azeri position. I'm going to guess it's going to fall to the ground faster than it can turn.

No, what I am saying is that if they where at higher altitude they wiould have glide longer distance.....direction, rate of descent, airspeed, aircraft aerodynamics, trim setting, will change the glide distance once the aircraft is hands off (no one in control)

The math.

Crash site: 20 meters from azeri position

Eddo's claimed distance within Armenian territory. 500Ft~ 152 meters

Distance required to reach crash site 132 meters from 500ft.

I never claimed that....the 500 figure is altitude not distance covered over ground.

[gokorik]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Why am I so sure? Because Azerbaijan would have dead soldiers if it fell 20 meters away from the "adversary".

I understand what your saying but I think its still possible for the heli to have crashed near an unoccupied section of their trenches, thus no deaths or injuries.

You saw the explosion, that would kill anyone within 100 meters, injuring within at least 150-200 meters.

I don't think it's 100 meter kill radius. Agree to disagree?

Look, there are only two possible explanations for what happened:

1. Azerbaijan had anti-air troops stationed in a frontline trench, who convienetly shot down a helicopter flying in formation along Armenian trenches

2. Armenian helis headed into Azerbaijan territory, conducted a suicide run, and one was shot down, landing in an Azeri trench. This means that Azerbajani media outlets were correct, and all the others were wrong. This also means, the Armenian government lied about the crash site and where its position was.


Which seems more likely to you? Use reason, not assumptions. Do you honestly think, that two hinds would conduct a suicide run, unarmed, into Azerbaijani territory..just.because?

do you think that Armenian helicopters were flying near the frontline, unarmed, and were shot down by Azeri troops, who continued to fire on the crash site in an attempt to keep investigators from the helicopter and possibly Armenian troops?

I've been clear about what I think happened. Since we both think the same thing happened, I'm still wondering how you can say 100% for sure the helicopter couldn't have crashed into no man's land. Maybe we should just drop it and wait to see what the final report says.

[Chubs]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I understand what your saying but I think its still possible for the heli to have crashed near an unoccupied section of their trenches, thus no deaths or injuries.


I don't think it's 100 meter kill radius. Agree to disagree?


I've been clear about what I think happened. Since we both think the same thing happened, I'm still wondering how you can say 100% for sure the helicopter couldn't have crashed into no man's land. Maybe we should just drop it and wait to see what the final report says.

I never said I dont doubt the official story, I have my doubts about what the MoD is telling us. I sincerely do not believe that it fell 20 meters from an Azeri position. Im pretty sure they weren't all huddled together in one space if they knew there was a hostile heli flying above their heads, they would get int their positions and engage it. Which leads me to wonder why to helicopter wasn't taking small arms fire, or maybe even fire from a KORD/NSV????

The only way to know what happened, is to know if that trench the footage and missile was fired at, was the frontline trench. To me, it sure does look like it was on the frontline.

(I am actually wondering why the helis were flying in formation, and not taking fire from small arms if they were over an Azeri trench??? That makes no sense, I would fire everything I had into that thing, any anti-aircraft gun at my disposable would have been firing, at those helis. And those helis wouldn't have been in formation if they were taking fire. The official Azeri narrative is fabricated, and not true. Now the question is, is the Armenian one the same? Were those helis unarmed?