Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Artashes]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Haykakan jan, I'd rather look into this all as a part of a bigger picture.
There is this issue of open air over Artsakh and resuming cyvilian flights to Stepanakert. We have been ready to commence for a while, but azeris have been vehemently stating that they will shoot any cyvilian flight down.
I think that our leadership has been probing azeris for their real intentions and actions for a while. It could have been a cyvilian plane shot with many casualties instead of a military helicpter, in which case no retaliation would have any bearing short of a full scale war.
There had to be an incident and ensuing situation for this issue to either clear up to our needs or to come to a new reality that can give us a free hand in balancing or restraining azeris.
Now our military can and should shoot down any azeri plane near our borders.
It has to become an international issue and subject to negotiations in lew of casualties(in which, azeri side bears the responcibility coupled with their losses) and danger of escalation, for us to get azeris to commit to open air in conflict areas.
I tend to think that this kind of a scenario was at least considered. Especially after how our special forces resolved the issue of retrieving the bodies (just like as it looks as if azeris were prepared to shoot an aircraft over the border, whith their cameras ready).
We have to close that option of shooting cyvilian plane down for azeris. So far all negotiations with them have been fruitless.
Only options left are the incidents and ensuing reality.

---- and insuing reality ----
Things have changed. They set a precedent, changing the 20 year status quo. They escalated this confrontation. New rules have come into play. They never operated by the rules in the first place. It was us that maintained any true civility and honor.
Our hands are untied. They untied them. They fkd up.
Discretion is the better part of valor. That's what this latest operation was ... A valiant operation done with great discretion.
A vast and sweeping rearrangement on our part is taking place on our part (behind the scenes).
In my opinion, this favors us as it takes the "gloves off" for us.
We have gotten honor out of this, they, have once again shown the world their heartless intransigence.
Our military is swirling with activity in the reconfigure to address this new paradigm.

[Spetsnaz]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Ինչպե՞ս է կատարվել հատուկ գործողությունը. աղբյուր

23.11.2014

Արցախի զինված ուժերի հատուկ նշանակության ստորաբաժանումների զինծառայողները հատուկ գործողությանը պատրաստվել են օրեր շարունակ, հայկական զինուժի մասնագետները նախապես պլանավորել են ամեն ինչ, ուսումնասիրել բոլոր մանրուքները, այնուհետեւ անցել գործի: Այս մասին հայտնել է ԼՂՀ ՊԲ-ում NEWS.am-ի աղբյուրը:

Աղբյուրի փոխանցմամբ՝ Ադրբեջանը իմացել է, որ հայերը գնալու են խոցված ուղղաթիռի հետեւից, ուստի ծուղակ էին պատրաստել ուղղաթիռի շրջակայքում, սակայն հայ զինծառայողները նախ վերացրել են ծուղակը, այնուհետեւ մոտեցել են ուղղաթիռին: Այդ ընթացքում նրանք ոչնչացրել են լուսարձակ պահող ադրբեջանցուն ու նրա կողքին կանգնած զինծառայակցին, դա արել են անաղմուկ, այնպես, որ արդրբեջանական կողմի հերթափոխում ոչինչ չեն իմացել։

Աղբյուրի փոխանցմամբ՝ ուղղաթիռը խոցվելուց երկու մասի է բաժանվել, մի մասը այրվել է, իսկ քթամասին գտնվող զինծառայողի դին պահպանվել է, քանի որ այն չի այրվել։

Ավելի վաղ NEWS.am-ը հաղորդել էր, որ հաշվի առնելով Ադրբեջանի կողմից ինչ-որ մեկին ուղղաթիռին մոտ թողնելու կտրուկ մերժումները, ԼՂՀ ՊԲ հրամանատարությունը մարտական խնդրի կատարման արդյունքում դեպքի վայրից տարհանել է ուղղաթիռի անձնակազմից մեկի դին, երկու օդաչուների մասունքները և ուղղաթիռի որոշ անհրաժեշտ մասեր։

Նշենք, որ խոցված ուղղաթիռի զոհված երեք օդաչուներն են ուղղաթիռի հրամանատար մայոր Սերգեյ Սահակյանը, երկու զինծառայողներ, լեյտենանտ Ազատ Սահակյանը եւ ավագ լեյտենանտ Սարգիս Նազարյանը:

Հիշեցնենք, որ ԼՂՀ ՊՆ-ի փոխանցմամբ՝ ղարաբաղա-ադրբեջանական սահմանի արեւելյան հատվածի օդային տարածքում նոյեմբերի 12-ին, ժամը 13.45-ի սահմաններում ուսումնավարժական թռիչքի ժամանակ ադրբեջանական ԶՈւ-ի կողմից հրադադարի ռեժիմի խախտման արդյունքում խոցվել է ԼՂՀ ՌՕՈւ «Մի-24» ուղղաթիռը: Խոցման վայրը շփման գծին չափազանց մոտ էր: Հակառակորդը շարունակում էր տարբեր տրամաչափի հրաձգային զենքերից ինտենսիվ կրակ վարել դեպքի վայրի ուղղությամբ՝ թույլ չտալով մոտենալ ուղղաթիռի անկման վայրին:

http://news.am/arm/news/240580.html

[Chubs]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

---- and insuing reality ----
Things have changed. They set a precedent, changing the 20 year status quo. They escalated this confrontation. New rules have come into play. They never operated by the rules in the first place. It was us that maintained any true civility and honor.
Our hands are untied. They untied them. They fkd up.
Discretion is the better part of valor. That's what this latest operation was ... A valiant operation done with great discretion.
A vast and sweeping rearrangement on our part is taking place on our part (behind the scenes).
In my opinion, this favors us as it takes the "gloves off" for us.
We have gotten honor out of this, they, have once again shown the world their heartless intransigence.
Our military is swirling with activity in the reconfigure to address this new paradigm.

Artashes, are you seriously saying to us, that Armenian soldiers have never violated the ceasefire? I have absolutely no doubt in my mind, Armenians have violated the ceasefire many times. Whether it be in retaliation or just acts of emotion by our troops on the border. If one of my friends was nailed in the head, than I would not hesitate to send a couple dozen rounds in the direction of the enemy trench.

Honor isn't gonna save your ass, when there is a T90 700 meters away. "Honor" is a load of BS, lets be realistic and get back down to Earth.


Artashes, are you seriously suggesting that there is civility in war? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but there is no civility in war. War is war, its killing. You have limitations, but civil human beings do not kill each other.

If the status quo is changed, than we do what we need, to revert it back. Escalation, is not an option. Simply escalating the conflict yourself, with the excuse "They did it first!" is not appropriate. Let's just remember who is really pulling the strings in this conflict.


I can understand the victim's family's position on the operation. I wouldn't want more lives lost while retrieving my son's/partner's body. I would feel responsible.

http://news.am/arm/videos/718.html

Reddit was nice enough to make this, Hyefighter, if you want to use your photoshop skills to make an infographic, I think the creator of this image would appreciate it:

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Artashes, are you seriously saying to us, that Armenian soldiers have never violated the ceasefire? I have absolutely no doubt in my mind, Armenians have violated the ceasefire many times. Whether it be in retaliation or just acts of emotion by our troops on the border. If one of my friends was nailed in the head, than I would not hesitate to send a couple dozen rounds in the direction of the enemy trench.

Honor isn't gonna save your ass, when there is a T90 700 meters away. "Honor" is a load of BS, lets be realistic and get back down to Earth.


Artashes, are you seriously suggesting that there is civility in war? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but there is no civility in war. War is war, its killing. You have limitations, but civil human beings do not kill each other.

If the status quo is changed, than we do what we need, to revert it back. Escalation, is not an option. Simply escalating the conflict yourself, with the excuse "They did it first!" is not appropriate. Let's just remember who is really pulling the strings in this conflict.


I can understand the victim's mother's position on the operation. I wouldn't want more lives lost while retrieving my son's body. I would feel responsible.
http://news.am/arm/videos/718.html

What Artashes is implying in my opinion is that every time rules of ceasefire and international laws and agreements have been broken by azeri side in almost all cases (maybe because they feel stronger by all those purchases, but in my opinion because of other reasons), which by our strong resolve and unity have brought us moral and diplomatic victories, while becoming losses for azeris.
This time too, when gloves come out, our actions give us moral high ground again.
Reality or BS or not by your opinion, the feeling of moral correctness is important for our army. I think it is important for everybody.
That is why azeri soldiers do not compare to ours. They feel themselves inferior in every aspect and that translates to uncontrollable fear.
Go watch the battle for Sarsang filmed on azery side by NTV. The scene in the bus where about 30-40 azeri soldiers scream and moan with their cries because of fear says it all. They act the same as a criminal does as he is about to be cought by law(in panic, irrational and uncontrollable).
It's all about righteousness, honor and moral hight ground. Whithout it best weaponry won't help.

[Chubs]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

What Artashes is implying in my opiniton is that almost every time rules of ceasefire and international laws and agreements have been broken by azeri side in almost all cases (maybe because they feel stronger by all those purchases, but in my opinion because of other reasons), which by our strong resolve and unity have brought us moral and diplomatic victories, while becoming losses for azeris.
This time too, when gloves come out, our actions give us moral high ground again.
Reality or BS or not by your opinion, the feeling of moral corectedness is important for our army. I think it is important for everybody.
That is why azeri soldiers do not compare to ours. They feel themselfs inferior in every aspect and that translates to uncontrollable fear.
Go watch the battle for Sarsang filmed on azery side by NTV. The scene in the bus where about 30-40 azeri soldiers scream and moan with their cries in fear says it all. They act the same as a criminal does as he is about to be cought by law.
It's all about righteoseness, honor and moral hight ground. Whithout it best weaponry won't help.

While that is understandable, the only thing moral high ground contributes to is international support and troop morale. Honor has nothing to do with it, honor is just an illusion that has been fabricated to rationalize murder, killing, and suffering. Honor, fortunately, is an illusion that has been lifted out of most armed forces. (Honor didn't do anything for the Japanese)

I agree, Azeris have not exactly done anything that makes them look good, and don't plan on it, but simply moral high ground wont win wars. What wins wars, is professionalism, organization, preparedness, and wit.

I would never equate today's Azeri conscripts to criminals. I would say, that they are just 18 year old boys, being pushed to sit at a trench all day, get shot at, and be sincerely fearful for their lives.

They do not compare to ours, because Armenian soldiers experience alot less troubles, better training, and regularly have their morale boosted. Armenian soldiers are general much more professional, and their morale is high. Just look at the 2010 skirmish, we watched either Azeri military quality plummet, or Armenian military quality sky rocket in the last few years. I think we thank our Defense minister for that.

Its not about righteousness, or honor. You know who else feels righteous? ISIS. Righteousness, like honor, is an illusion.

[Eddo211]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I think Azeris are scared of full scale war more than Armenians.....but we think the opposite.
Azerbaijan has alot more to loose than Armenia during full scale war, economic shutdown, military getting their butts kicked trying to take Artsakh. Aliyev will loose power, ect. You shoot two or three of them the rest run like rabbits where our forces will neutralize them.
They just like taking crap shots at us and play with their new toys.

As far as flight to Artsakh, they should start right away.......the first flights can be cargo operations fitted into commercial aircraft with no passengers.

[Artashes]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

What Artashes is implying in my opinion is that every time rules of ceasefire and international laws and agreements have been broken by azeri side in almost all cases (maybe because they feel stronger by all those purchases, but in my opinion because of other reasons), which by our strong resolve and unity have brought us moral and diplomatic victories, while becoming losses for azeris.
This time too, when gloves come out, our actions give us moral high ground again.
Reality or BS or not by your opinion, the feeling of moral correctness is important for our army. I think it is important for everybody.
That is why azeri soldiers do not compare to ours. They feel themselves inferior in every aspect and that translates to uncontrollable fear.
Go watch the battle for Sarsang filmed on azery side by NTV. The scene in the bus where about 30-40 azeri soldiers scream and moan with their cries because of fear says it all. They act the same as a criminal does as he is about to be cought by law(in panic, irrational and uncontrollable).
It's all about righteousness, honor and moral hight ground. Whithout it best weaponry won't help.

Your right Hakob, morality & decency & honor are --- REAL --- things and important to one and all.
Goes to the very core of who we are.

A quote from the post by chubs Hakob referes to ... Honor is bs ...
For all to see ...

[Mher]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I think Azeris are scared of full scale war more than Armenians.....but we think the opposite.
Azerbaijan has alot more to loose than Armenia during full scale war, economic shutdown, military getting their butts kicked trying to take Artsakh. Aliyev will loose power, ect. You shoot two or three of them the rest run like rabbits where our forces will neutralize them.
They just like taking crap shots at us and play with their new toys.

As far as flight to Artsakh, they should start right away.......the first flights can be cargo operations fitted into commercial aircraft with no passengers.

I somewhat agree on the first point. Though at the moment continued peace means continued victory for us, that land means much much much less to them than to us. Also, their operations will be limited to Artsakh, where as Armenia can attack everything they have and then some. So while at best, they regain some of Artsakh and with it a bill of billions of dollars of infrastructure that will need to be built to integrate the land, at worst they can lose much more land, have their economic in shatters, and the sultan can have his head chopped off.

But as far as civilian flights, that's a whole different matter. It's not going to be very plausible. Would you risk very realistic chance of death and take that flight? I know I wouldn't, and I can't imagine too many other people who would either. The cargo idea though is a realistic and interesting concept.

[Eddo211]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I will take that first cargo flight.....there will be volunteers. Pilots are crazy to begin with, different bread, they be lined up to take the flights I bet you anything.

[Chubs]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Well, I am not surprised the Azeris were lying about the crash site position. I used google earth to measure the distance, and the creator of the image got it almost spot on.

To closest part of the Azeri trench ≈220 meters

To closest part of the Armenian trench ≈260 meters

Guess what? To the exact spot where the Igla was fired ≈500 meters