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    Thread: The Struggle in Javakhk

    1. #16
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      Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

      This news from Javakhk might be a watershed moment in the region's history. If the Armenians had allowed these brutes to take their land, it might have accelerated the rate at which events like this occur. But the fact that they fought and asserted control over their land means that Armenians in Javakhk are ready to fight against Georgian chauvanism and aggression, and now Tbilisi is aware of it. We must wait and see what they try next, but Armenians of Javakhk must be prepared for the worst, as they are the first line of defense on this front. There are many factors and variables that can turn this situation against us, or that can turn this situation into a blessing for us... that is, if we retake Javakhk while creating a secure corridor to the Black Sea... but this is dependent on what Russia aims to achieve in the region. It is also dependent on the balance of power between Russia and the other regional and international powers (namely the US and Turkey), and how Russia chooses to balance its own interests alongside the interests of its competitors. Sadly, we Armenians are simply pawns in the greater power struggles of the Caucasus. But, if we have our backs against the wall, we must (and can) stand up for our own national interests.


      Եվ ինչպես իրենք են ասում, անհրաժեշտության դեպքում պատրաստ են նույնիսկ զենքի դիմել, բայց ոչ մի թիզ հող չեն տա վրացիներին:
      Շատ լաւ լուր է, յուսամ որ ամէն Հայերը պատրաստ ըլլան այդ պարաքային, ոչ թէ միայն Ջավախքցիները:
      Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

      Ten soldiers wisely led, will beat a hundred without a head.

    2. #17
      . D3ADSY's Avatar
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      Re: Clash at Parvana village in Javakhk

      Quote Originally Posted by KarotheGreat View Post
      I fit's needed but the people living there must be the one too rise up and fight. RA is not in position to do anything, but the diaspora and the people there can do a lot and it's up too them.
      Can they succeed without Armenia though? And if Armenia does anything, there is a risk of the Azeris making a move too. A two front war is the last thing we need.
      “There are truths on this side of the Pyrenees, which are falsehoods on the other.”
      Blaise Pascal

    3. #18
      Lenakantsi Karo KarotheGreat's Avatar
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      Re: Clash at Parvana village in Javakhk

      Quote Originally Posted by D3ADSY View Post
      Can they succeed without Armenia though? And if Armenia does anything, there is a risk of the Azeris making a move too. A two front war is the last thing we need.
      Let's hope it we will succeed, because we can't afford any thing else.

      How many new Monte's can be arison within the Diasporan Armenians and also in Akhaltskha/Akhalkalak to do something about it?
      I think there are a lot who would be ready to go and fight for the Armenian cause. And there are even more living in Armenia who will take up arms and help their brothers that live on the other side of the border.
      You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience!!!!!!!

      "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Voltaire

    4. #19
      Registered User Javakhk's Avatar
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      Re: Clash at Parvana village in Javakhk

      Quote Originally Posted by D3ADSY View Post
      Can they succeed without Armenia though? And if Armenia does anything, there is a risk of the Azeris making a move too. A two front war is the last thing we need.
      Quote Originally Posted by D3ADSY View Post
      Can they succeed without Armenia though? And if Armenia does anything, there is a risk of the Azeris making a move too. A two front war is the last thing we need.
      To answer this question one need consider the magnitude of the problem. Before 2005-6 the main opponent of Armenians of Javakhk were some of the Georgian nationalists in Tbilisi. The Georgian state, however, respected the de facto autonomy that Javakhk has sine Soviet times (fully Armenian schools, Armenians in administration, Armenian language allowed for local administrative purposes, etc.). So Javakhk did not need much help from RA and from Diaspora either. Probably, this is one reason why there is so little information distributed about Javakhk before the years stated above.

      But later the situation changed. Two main factors of that are:
      - Turkey stated to “enter” Caucasus via its giant economical projects (Baku-Ceihan, Baku-Erzrum, Kars-Akhalkalak-Tbilisi, etc.);
      - After Roses revolution the value of Georgia, backed by the US and the West, and of president Saakashvili grew dramatically.

      Turkey wants to build a “corridor” via Javakhk+Borchali to Azerbaijan. Borchali is the South-Eastern part of modern Georgia. Javakhk and Borchali together form an only 160km long “corridor” from Turkey to Azerbaijan (from Istanbul to Baku). Georgia, on the other hand, wants to use support of Turkey in its confrontation with Russia.

      So these days the much more powerful Georgia (more powerful than what it was in 2001) with Turkish support has much more freedom to do things in Javakhk.

      This answers your question. Because, even if each Armenian in Javakhk wee a Rembo/Terminator, they cannot stand against Turkey and Georgia without help of other Armenians.

      But the good news is that the situation is not lost. There are many measures we can take. Also, solution of the problem of Javakhk may or may not always mean annexion of the territory from Georgia. If Georgia allows us to have the same autonomy that we had before, then it can be a good solution because:
      - it allows Javakhk to stay an Armenian region without assimilation or de-armenization;
      - it allows Armenia to have an Armenian-populated region that brakes the Turkish plan to join to Azerbaijan via the “corridor” Javakhk+Borchali;
      - it allows Georgia to avoid all dangers of potential confrontation with Armenians (including RA and Diaspora);
      - it allows Georgia to have Javakhk for the case if the Turkish influence in Georgia gets too much.
      Javakhk

    5. #20
      Lenakantsi Karo KarotheGreat's Avatar
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      Re: Clash at Parvana village in Javakhk

      Quote Originally Posted by Javakhk View Post
      To answer this question one need consider the magnitude of the problem. Before 2005-6 the main opponent of Armenians of Javakhk were some of the Georgian nationalists in Tbilisi. The Georgian state, however, respected the de facto autonomy that Javakhk has sine Soviet times (fully Armenian schools, Armenians in administration, Armenian language allowed for local administrative purposes, etc.). So Javakhk did not need much help from RA and from Diaspora either. Probably, this is one reason why there is so little information distributed about Javakhk before the years stated above.

      But later the situation changed. Two main factors of that are:
      - Turkey stated to “enter” Caucasus via its giant economical projects (Baku-Ceihan, Baku-Erzrum, Kars-Akhalkalak-Tbilisi, etc.);
      - After Roses revolution the value of Georgia, backed by the US and the West, and of president Saakashvili grew dramatically.

      Turkey wants to build a “corridor” via Javakhk+Borchali to Azerbaijan. Borchali is the South-Eastern part of modern Georgia. Javakhk and Borchali together form an only 160km long “corridor” from Turkey to Azerbaijan (from Istanbul to Baku). Georgia, on the other hand, wants to use support of Turkey in its confrontation with Russia.

      So these days the much more powerful Georgia (more powerful than what it was in 2001) with Turkish support has much more freedom to do things in Javakhk.

      This answers your question. Because, even if each Armenian in Javakhk wee a Rembo/Terminator, they cannot stand against Turkey and Georgia without help of other Armenians.

      But the good news is that the situation is not lost. There are many measures we can take. Also, solution of the problem of Javakhk may or may not always mean annexion of the territory from Georgia. If Georgia allows us to have the same autonomy that we had before, then it can be a good solution because:
      - it allows Javakhk to stay an Armenian region without assimilation or de-armenization;
      - it allows Armenia to have an Armenian-populated region that brakes the Turkish plan to join to Azerbaijan via the “corridor” Javakhk+Borchali;
      - it allows Georgia to avoid all dangers of potential confrontation with Armenians (including RA and Diaspora);
      - it allows Georgia to have Javakhk for the case if the Turkish influence in Georgia gets too much.
      I don't think the Georgian government is that smart and they'll never do the things you are telling. Look at their president he ate his tie on tv, so you can expect everything from that guy. And I think things will not get better but things will get worse.

      And Turkey will never dare to do a thing when Javakh decides to rise against Tiblisi. If they do Armenia will act and with Armenia Russia. Turkey will do nothing except give logistic support to the Georgians.
      You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience!!!!!!!

      "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Voltaire

    6. #21
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      Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

      Things are going to start picking up soon and it's not going to be pretty. Guess who's back.
      ----------------------------------------------------------
      Meskhetian Turks leave Azerbaijan


      “Vatan” – Meskhetian Turks’ Society in Azerbaijan, intends to terminate its activity in Azerbaijan and continue it already on their historical motherland — Georgia, Azeri Zerkalo daily reports.

      According to Ibragim Burkhanov, Vatan’s Chairman, the Society united more than 17 000 Meskhetian Turks who intend to leave Azerbaijan in the beginning of 2010 and return to Georgia. By then Meshketian Turks’ bids for repatriate status will be considered.

      On the whole there are 70 000 Meskhetian Turk residents in Azerbaijan. In the beginning of 1990s many of them settled in Azerbaijani regions (Saatli and Sabirabad) after they had been deported from Georgia in 1944 under Joseph Stalin’s decree.

      http://news.am/en/news/3340.html
      Azerbaboon: 9.000 Google hits and counting!

    7. #22
      Death by Internet jgk3's Avatar
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      Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

      they're going to be settled in Armenian majority areas?
      I was taught how to think.

    8. #23
      Սպարապետ Federate's Avatar
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      Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

      Quote Originally Posted by jgk3 View Post
      they're going to be settled in Armenian majority areas?
      In Javakhk, mostly in Akhaltsikhe.
      Azerbaboon: 9.000 Google hits and counting!

    9. #24
      Registered User Mukuch's Avatar
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      Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

      Can we aford second Karabakh in Javakhk?
      Death or Freedom!

    10. #25
      Registered User Javakhk's Avatar
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      Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

      Quote Originally Posted by Federate View Post
      In Javakhk, mostly in Akhaltsikhe.
      Yes, the Ahiska Turklar (= the Maekhetian Turks) earlier lived not in Upper Javakhk, that is, in Akhalkalak-Bogdanovka-Tsalka areas ("rayons" in soviet notation) of Javakhk, but Lower Javakhk, that is, in Akhaltskha-Aspindza-Adigen areas (there were only a few very small villages of them in Akhalkalak and Bogdanovka areas).

      However, in Turkish terminology the whole region is "Ahiska". They, so to say, count the land based on Ahiska pashalik which included all the areas listed above (see the maps from Turkish sites below).

      Also, for Turks it is vital to control the Akhalkalak-Bogdanovka-Tsalka areas as well because this creates a connection of "Ahiska" region to the "Borchali" region in Georgia, which already is Turkish-populated. This crates "corridor" from Turkey to Azerbaijan.

      Here are some maps:



      http://sozluk.turkbirlik.gen.tr/lang...-turkleri.html



      Javakhk

    11. #26
      Registered User Javakhk's Avatar
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      Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

      ... posting error.
      Last edited by Javakhk; 08-30-2009 at 01:20 AM.
      Javakhk

    12. #27
      Registered User Javakhk's Avatar
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      Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

      Quote Originally Posted by Mukuch View Post
      Can we aford second Karabakh in Javakhk?
      Can we afford a second Nakhichevan “on the head” of Armenia? Can we afford a connection of Turkey and Azerbaijan via Javakhk+Borchali?

      Also, it is not assumed that to protect Armenians of Javakhk we need necessarily start a second Karabakh war there.
      Javakhk

    13. #28
      Registered User Mukuch's Avatar
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      Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

      Quote Originally Posted by Javakhk View Post
      Can we afford a second Nakhichevan “on the head” of Armenia? Can we afford a connection of Turkey and Azerbaijan via Javakhk+Borchali?

      Also, it is not assumed that to protect Armenians of Javakhk we need necessarily start a second Karabakh war there.
      Well of course we must protect Armenians in Javakhk, and if there will be question of ethnical cleansing like it happened in Karabakh we may even enter in the war with Georgia (thanks God they proofed to be worthless in combat).
      But we must be very careful of Russian provocations; the only one interested in this war right now is Russia. And I heard some calls to force-major the situation in Javakhk, that why I ask can we afford it?
      Last edited by Mukuch; 08-30-2009 at 02:57 AM.
      Death or Freedom!

    14. #29
      Registered User Javakhk's Avatar
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      Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

      Quote Originally Posted by Mukuch View Post
      Well of course we must protect Armenians in Javakhk, and if there will be question of ethnical cleansing like it happened in Karabakh we may even enter in the war with Georgia (thanks God they proofed to be worthless in combat).
      But we must be very careful of Russian provocations; the only one interested in this war right now is Russia. And I heard some calls to force-major the situation in Javakhk, that why I ask can we afford it?
      Mukuch jan, the Russian-Georgian confrontation is very sharp indeed. I, too, have seen Russian propaganda material targeting Armenians, or Azeris, or even some of the Georgian sub-ethnic groups (such as Mengrels or Svans) convincing to struggle against Saakashvili government in Tbilisi. So, yes, the problem you mentioned does exist.

      You mentioned the word "afford". Mukuch jan, the first thing we can afford is that we can afford to distinguish the Russian agitation from real facts. Awareness and information is our main tools to overcome Russian agitation, as well as Turkish agitation, Georgian agitation, etc…
      Javakhk

    15. #30
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      Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

      Sarkisian Proposes Measures to ‘Alleviate’ Plight of Javakhk Armenians


      YEREVAN (Combined Sources)–Addressing a gathering of senior Armenian diplomats on September 1, President Serzh Sarkisian outlined measures he considers necessary to help the large Armenian community in the southern Georgian region of Javakhk integrate more successfully into Georgian society without losing their Armenian identity.

      The announcement came ahead of a scheduled visit to Armenia by Georgian Foreign Minister Grigol Vashadze, who will arrive in Yerevan on Friday for talks with Armenian Foreign Minister Edward Nalbandian on bilateral relations between the two countries. Also on the agenda are the measures Sarkisian discussed in his statement.

      Those measures include granting Armenian the formal status of a regional language, registering the Armenian Apostolic Church, and preserving Armenian historic monuments on Georgian territory.

      Granting Armenian the status of an official regional language was one of the issues NGOs in the predominantly Armenian-populated Javakhk region had asked Sarkisian to raise with his Georgian counterpart, Mikheil Saakashvili, during his official visit to Tbilisi in late June.

      Many Armenians in Javakhk have only a rudimentary knowledge of Georgian, which limits their career prospects.

      They also require the restoration to Armenian control a number of churches and other historic monuments which the Georgia government has seized, and, crucially, local self-government for the region.

      The various Javakhk-based organizations have said it is of vital interest to the community that political stability and economic prosperity in the region be preserved and that democratic development in Georgia continues. But they also warn of “imminent dangers” that may result from “illegal actions” by local Georgian officials that have exacerbated tensions in the region.

      Among the other issues the Georgian NGOs are calling on Sarkisian to raise with his Georgian counterpart is the immediate release of Vahagn Chakhalian, a young Armenian community leader who was arrested 11 months ago and sentenced in April to 10 years in prison, Chakhalian was arrested on unsubstantiated charges for the illegal possession of weapons, participating in mass disorders, resisting arrest, and “hooliganism.”

      The organizations are also calling for the reopening of the Verkhinii Lars border and customs post on the Russian-Georgian border. The gateway, if opened, would enable Armenians to travel overland to Russia. Georgia signaled its readiness late last month to begin talks with Moscow on reopening Verkhnii Lars. But talks have yet to begin.

      Dual Armenian-Georgian citizenship for the Armenians of Javakhk–a right provided by both countries’ constitutions–as well as the establishment of a local branch of the Tbilisi State University in the region are also issues Sarkisian is being asked to bring up during his talks with Saakashvili.

      http://www.asbarez.com/2009/09/02/sa...khk-armenians/
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