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Free Will (again)

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  • Free Will (again)

    All things living and not have an inherent need to grow, expand, multiply. From birth, we have been a collective of physical objects, not exempt from this law of the universe, they grew, got bigger, fatter, longer, multiplied. Did we choose as such? Were our brains able to comprehend or participate in free will? Would we be able to choose our destiny?

    Eventually our brains get better developed. We can choose some things, but not all things, we have little control of our body, we have little control of the way we react to to spiders, to girls, to fire. Of-course some of us don't fear spiders as much as others, some of us will go chasing spiders when we grow up, others chasing girls. But most all of us will fear fire. But we choose to listen to certain types of music, watch certain cartoons, be friends with certain people, make fun of certain people. Do we really though? We listen to Armenian music because we are...Armenian, pop music because its popular. We befriend some because they perhaps have something we want, a shiny bicycle perhaps. Are mean to others because they walk weird, look weird, are foreign to us.

    Things get interesting in the metaphysical realm when we get older. We can better choose.. music, girls, friends, enemies, what we eat, where we sleep, who we sleep with. But perhaps not? Certain experiences in our childhood might have left us biased in several subjects. Why we might like classical music, why I might prefer brunettes, why I dislike Turks. So we are back where we started.

    We often see ourselves as one person, one object, but in my view we are (as said earlier) a collective. We are compromised of so many, their one goal is to grow, expand, get bigger. Our physical selves and our ideas, the world view we gather from sense data competes for our attention. Blonds and brunettes have been battling it out, brunettes seem to rise victorious save for some moments when the ground beneath them falters to make exception for a certain blonde, but they soon regain ground. So many genres of music, so many films, so many people out there, who do we accept as brethren? Who do we see as our enemies? A wise man once said: ...every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain... A wise four fingered man indeed, for competing ideas cannot occupy the same space in our minds. So which is it? Rap or Rock? Left or Right? Up or Down? Brunette or Blonde? Friend or Foe?

    It is through repression, that free will is born. Sometime in our life we no longer allow just any idea to enter our minds, any food to enter our stomachs. In general any one thing in the universe that is screaming to grow, to expand, to be more, to expand into us, to occupy us, take hold of us. As we learn we discipline ourselves. I say repression because our minds are as hungry to grow as anything else in this universe, the metaphysical space that exists within will be occupied, it is the what we gain through discipline that keeps certain things out, and lets certain things naturally grow, expand, through us.

  • #2
    Re: Free Will (again)

    So basically, we limit ourselves through our "preferences" of what to let in, the preferences being something learned and not inherent to our individual beings.

    Also, you might like this phrase: "What is so individual about individuals?"

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Free Will (again)

      "All things living and not have an inherent need to grow, expand, multiply. "
      This is a false statement. I am looking at the table in front of me and it has no inherent needs. As a matter of fact this table will decay and rott away not grow, expand, multiply..One can argue that many people do not have the these needs either. I agree that non of us are free of prejidice but not everything is based on what we choose to "let in". People can and do formulate ideas and concepts which never existed before thus we are more then simply what we choose to let in or keep out. I do believe that much of who we are and how we see the world comes from the environment we grew up in but scientific studies have conclusively demonstrated that many people are born with certain predespositions which do dictate how they think about some things. Yes we do limit ourselves through our preferences of what to let in but these preferences are not all learned and in fact are very much individual based with the emphasis on the individual and his/her genetic/biological predespositions.
      Hayastan or Bust.

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      • #4
        Re: Free Will (again)

        Originally posted by jgk3 View Post
        So basically, we limit ourselves through our "preferences" of what to let in, the preferences being something learned and not inherent to our individual beings.

        Also, you might like this phrase: "What is so individual about individuals?"
        Yes, free will could not come from something inherent. By definition nothing would be free about it. Free will comes about when we learn, when we discipline ourselves to live by certain "preferences" that we have accepted.

        An appropriate quote indeed.

        Originally posted by Haykakan View Post
        I am looking at the table in front of me and it has no inherent needs. As a matter of fact this table will decay and rott away not grow, expand, multiply..One can argue that many people do not have the these needs either. I agree that non of us are free of prejidice but not everything is based on what we choose to "let in". People can and do formulate ideas and concepts which never existed before thus we are more then simply what we choose to let in or keep out. I do believe that much of who we are and how we see the world comes from the environment we grew up in but scientific studies have conclusively demonstrated that many people are born with certain predespositions which do dictate how they think about some things. Yes we do limit ourselves through our preferences of what to let in but these preferences are not all learned and in fact are very much individual based with the emphasis on the individual and his/her genetic/biological predespositions.
        Thank you for using a table as an example, for it was once a tree. But perhaps it's made of glass, fine particles of sand. But you might still not escape growth, they say the Saharan desert is expanding.

        But ok, say you have a dead piece of wood, is it trying to grow? Well that table is a collection of particles, atoms that given the opportunity to multiply, will. But they might not be in the best position to do so, so perhaps the death of that once noble tree and its eventual rotting is indeed their best path to growth. And perhaps they rather stay as is, a collective, a table. But that table is not all the exists, termites have the same need to grow. Isolate it in a room by itself, let a thousand years pass and still you might come to see dust, particles in the air surrounding the table are not exempt from this law of expansion.

        As far as people not having the need to grow, I don't think any one person can take their life without fighting the core of their existence. Perhaps they do so because certain things have grown beyond their control. One cannot commit suicide with a smile on their face, maybe they can convince themselves to smile, would be forced. Were you talking about something else? Perhaps people that sort of remain in a static state, that do nothing with their life? I think most everyone has a reason to live for, if they don't then perhaps it makes fighting that core of existence much easier, i don't know. But hell, even to see what's on tv, what crazy xxxx are they going to invent tomorrow, what will happen in 2012, anything at all to grasp on to in order to make their existence worthwhile.

        Do people really formulate ideas which have never existed? One thing I've learned is that whatever it is you have to say, has already been said a thousand times. This is besides the point though. Do we really have ideas which never existed? Or do we take the potential for that idea, and let it grow? That idea has its roots, it did not come out of thin air, it had a cause. We take that, and we let it breather, give it life by letting it grow within ourself. It is discipline which controls that growth like a gardener finely trimming a garden rather than letting things grow out of control.

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        • #5
          Re: Free Will (again)

          Atoms do not multiply. The dessert isnt so much expanding as the grasslands around it are going dry and dead. While i share your enthusiasm about future discoveries you may be surprised by the fact that many people couldnt care less about that or anything else. Yes people do indeed formulate ideas which never existed, sure they may be based on the knowledge of things already in existence but that does not change the fact that the idea never existed before but does now. I am sensing a flaw in the way you describe the expansion of all things. Perhaps understanding the physical world especialy atoms may be something you may want to study further and adjust your theory accordingly.
          Hayastan or Bust.

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          • #6
            Re: Free Will (again)

            Perhaps I am not describing what I have in mind correctly. Atoms do group with others to form molecules. You don't get a cup of water from a single molecule of h2o, they tend to stick together. Chemistry was never an interest for me but atoms do lose electrons to others, atoms join others to form molecules.

            As far a creation of new ideas... Just because we see something that we couldn't before doesn't mean it wasn't there before. Relativity was true before Einstein discovered it, gravity true before Newton. We may not have known that objects fall at 9.8 m/s but we knew not to walk off cliffs. We knew what we needed to know, the modern human knows much more. Free will is about control of information which we are aware of, which we are conscious of. There are indeed things instilled in us that we cannot overcome, or perhaps we choose not to. We don't walk off cliffs simply because we can, some do. We might stand in front of our children to prevent them from getting hurt even if it might cause us harm, we dislike certain groups of people, perhaps we have good reason to. Freedom of will does not put us in complete control, again, free will (as I've argued) is control of information through repression. I am not arguing that we have complete freedom, just exploring free will within the context of our existence. Perhaps as we gain more knowledge we will become more free.

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            • #7
              Re: Free Will (again)

              You could say that we are limited from past experiences, that we don't really have a choice where we go to school, who are parents set up play dates with, what they feed us, what religion they teach us, etc.

              And that is partially true. However it is also true that even babies won't eat food they don't like. And that if you hate who ever your mom set up play dates with she'll probably stop setting them up with that particular kid. Even with religion, there are kids who are steadfast believers and then there are the kids who never close their eyes when they pray, and ask questions that show they lean to the slightly more skeptical side.

              When you're older, you can cite things like not ever dating someone outside your ethnic background to predispositions from the way you were raised, but in the end it was still your choice. At some point in your post adolescence life you probably came across someone outside your background you felt attracted to but you chose not to build on those feelings b/c you knew other people might not like it.

              So yes other people influenced your choice, but in the end it was still your choice, you just didn't have the backbone to face whoever was influencing you decision (e.g. parents). That doesn't mean free will is limited, it just means you don't have balls

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Free Will (again)

                Originally posted by ara87 View Post
                At some point in your post adolescence life you probably came across someone outside your background you felt attracted to but you chose not to build on those feelings b/c you knew other people might not like it.
                I'm attracted to any woman that is a 7 and above on my personal scale. Those aren't feelings of attraction on a personal/cultural/intellectual level, they are more instinctive/physical. I've been raised to live a certain way and if someone doesn't want to life that live with me then I'd rather live it alone. There is nothing worse then having to live with someone who you don't necessarily bond with because society dictates to you that you should. That's just dumb yet the majority finds it normal. I see that as exercising my right to free will. We shouldn't be bound by some superficial, societal "norms".
                Last edited by KanadaHye; 09-21-2010, 10:06 PM.
                "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

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                • #9
                  Re: Free Will (again)

                  Originally posted by ara87 View Post
                  That doesn't mean free will is limited, it just means you don't have balls
                  Do you have the balls to stand up to your balls?

                  An anology that often pops into my head is a train on rails, it is our discipline that lets us pull the lever to change it's tracks. Equate the train to things within us that determine us, wants and needs. Some might be little toy trains that take little effort to change course, some racing locomotives with numerous cars behind them that will take much more.

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