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    Thread: Atheism and being Armenian

    1. #31
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      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

      Quote Originally Posted by KanadaHye View Post
      Science also maintains false beliefs during a time period until new evidence replaces those beliefs that are proven to be false.

      The question stated is whether or not someone can be atheist and Armenian and it's really a catch 22. Armenians were pagan prior to Christianity and their adoption of Christianity brought ages of enlightenment which was beneficial to the survival of the Armenian people. What is of concern is whether or not an Atheist is denying Armenian history by claiming that Armenia's golden age would have happened with or without the formation of a Christian state. In other words, did Christianity (at the state level) lead to an increase in intelligence or was it bound to happen regardless? Also, I don't see why someone of faith can't follow the scientific method.... science is a profession.
      I think that depends on the individuals that existed within the institution at the time. Do you think there could have been an Armenian Golden Age if the people who ran the Armenian Church ran a hardliner Christian Theocracy that forced everyone to believe what they did on pain of death, and persecuted those who disagreed (including the scientists and philosophers). I doubt there could have been an Armenian golden age without freedom of thought and a certain level of religious freedom. The answer to the question is not so much would there have have been an Armenian Golden Age, as what factors and individuals contributed to the Christian church being so positive for the Armenian society at the time.
      Last edited by hipeter924; 04-25-2011 at 10:21 AM.

    2. #32
      Anarchist KanadaHye's Avatar
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      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

      Quote Originally Posted by hipeter924 View Post
      For many they do, the clergy also being believers, and the clergy guiding the faith of those believers. How can you with knowledge of the Genocide be so ignorant that you fail to realize that Imams called for Muslims to kill the Christians (being Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks), and it was their call and suggestion they would go to heaven that encouraged the Muslims to do so.
      This was more likely due to the divide and conquer schemes planned by outside forces. They had to choose which minorities to pick on to create instability within the Ottoman Empire and Armenians were perfect since they held many high positions. This wasn't based on Armenians being Christians, it was due to Armenians being a threat because of their activity within the empire.
      "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

    3. #33
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      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

      Quote Originally Posted by KanadaHye View Post
      This was more likely due to the divide and conquer schemes planned by outside forces. They had to choose which minorities to pick on to create instability within the Ottoman Empire and Armenians were perfect since they held many high positions. This wasn't based on Armenians being Christians, it was due to Armenians being a threat because of their activity within the empire.
      True, but none the less the clergy held great influence over the population, and was thus a useful tool of the Young Turks to help spread the word and implement their genocide.

    4. #34
      Anarchist KanadaHye's Avatar
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      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

      Quote Originally Posted by hipeter924 View Post
      I think that depends on the individuals that existed within the institution at the time. Do you think there could have been an Armenian Golden Age if the people who ran the Armenian Church ran a hardliner Christian Theocracy that forced everyone to believe what they did on pain of death, and persecuted those who disagreed. I doubt there could have been an Armenian golden age without freedom of thought and a certain level of religious freedom. The question is not so much would have have been an Armenian Golden Age, as what factors and individuals contributed to the Christian church being so positive for the Armenian society at the time.
      I don't think Christianity among Armenians was adopted by force, I think it was promoted by setting an example and allowing people to see that it was a better way of life. I also think Paganism had taken Armenians as far as it could and a change in direction was needed to advance. Christians aren't necessarily against progress, they just think there are moral and immoral paths towards advancement. Oh, and George Bush is certainly not considered among Armenians as being a spokesman for Christianity.
      "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

    5. #35
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      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

      Quote Originally Posted by KanadaHye View Post
      Science also maintains false beliefs during a time period until new evidence replaces those beliefs that are proven to be false.

      The question stated is whether or not someone can be atheist and Armenian and it's really a catch 22. Armenians were pagan prior to Christianity and their adoption of Christianity brought ages of enlightenment which was beneficial to the survival of the Armenian people. What is of concern is whether or not an Atheist is denying Armenian history by claiming that Armenia's golden age would have happened with or without the formation of a Christian state. In other words, did Christianity (at the state level) lead to an increase in intelligence or was it bound to happen regardless? Also, I don't see why someone of faith can't follow the scientific method.... science is a profession.
      I have argued that our religion has been our undoing instead of our salvation before. After adopting Christianity, Armenia as a nation declined and lost statehood. Our empires were all built prior to our conversion to christianity. Religion creates tunnel vision and at times absolute blindness. Religious people either ignore facts or try to twist them to fit their own twisted agenda. The only reason there is a Armenian state today is because of the soviet union which was a athiest structure! I remember living in the soviet union where going to church and practicing religion was allowed-now compare that with theocracies all over the world and how "tolorant" they are of other views. I am not an athiest simply because i cannot prove that a god does not exist-this makes me an agnostic but there is plenty of solid proof about how religion is detrimental not to just armenians but to humanity in general. We armenians along with our culture predate christianity asa matter of fact we have preserved much of our previous religious practices and incoorporated them into our own version of christianity. Things like wishing trees, the blue eye and matagh (ritual sacrifice) are all peagan practices which we still use but have nothing to do with christian teachings. Being Armenian is much more then being christian and it always has been. I understand why diasporans identify so strongly with their church, it is because the church is their connection to all things armenian but this is not how things always were and this is not how things are in Armenia. If we all lived in Armenia this connection to the church would not be as strong because there are so many other ways to express your armenianness. In the diaspora we lack the many things which would allow us to be armenian that are plentifull in Armenia and this lack of things to identify with forces diasporans into the arms of the church where all things related to being armenian outside of armenia are centered on. The strong connection of the diaspora Armenians to their church is explained by the fact that they have no other options since they do not live in a armenian state and whatever resources the diasporans have are poured into church related activities and functions. For the diasporan Armenian there is no other place to go but that is not true if you live in a armenian nation. This is why i stress nationhood because our own identity without a nation becomes limited to a religious sect and nothing more.
      Hayastan or Bust.

    6. #36
      Anarchist KanadaHye's Avatar
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      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

      Isn't the end goal to remain Armenian outside of the Armenian territory since it is constantly being invaded and challenged by greater forces? The romanticism that Armenians have created and imagined for the diaspora is that any two Armenians can meet and although having been raised worlds apart, they can still find common ground.
      "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

    7. #37
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      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

      Quote Originally Posted by KanadaHye View Post
      Isn't the end goal to remain Armenian outside of the Armenian territory since it is constantly being invaded and challenged by greater forces? The romanticism that Armenians have created and imagined for the diaspora is that any two Armenians can meet and although having been raised worlds apart, they can still find common ground.
      No it is not! The end goal is a nation we all would want to live in. The "common ground" you mention will be harder to find the longer we armenians remain separated from one another.
      Hayastan or Bust.

    8. #38
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      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

      Quote Originally Posted by KanadaHye View Post
      I don't think Christianity among Armenians was adopted by force, I think it was promoted by setting an example and allowing people to see that it was a better way of life. .
      Most 4th-century Armenians had never even seen a Christian before Christianity was enforced upon them, so it was hardly a case of setting an example and allowing people to see that it was a better way of life. In many parts of Armenia Christanity was adopted and enforced using military force - sometimes involving full-scale battles. Non-christian shrines were atacked and destroyed, sacred statues were smashed, temple lands and temple contents confiscated and distributed to those supporting the Church, and the population was forbidden to practice non-Christian rites. Ironically, because Christianity was forced onto the ordinary peasant population, this resulted in many religious practices from pre-Christian Armenia being preserved within Armenian Christianity. The designs of early churches in Armenia show that most Armenians after Armenia became officially Christian were still not Christians - churches had porticos and external apses because it was recognised that, because a large part of the population was not Christian or had not been properly baptised, they could not enter inside churches.

      About the Erzinjan region:
      Given the concentration of the pagan temples and the number of their officiating priests, Christianization was exerted here in a more drastic way than anywhere else. So, in this sector of the Canton of Daranaghik, Gregory and King Tiridates carried out a genuine military expedition. At Tordan they ruined the temple of Barshamin and broke his statue into pieces, they handed out its treasure to the poor and gave its properties to the Church: the inhabitants were ordered to convert. At Ani, they tore down the temple of Dios and gave the town and fortress to the church, then came to attack the temple of Anahit at Erez. They finally destroyed the temple of Nane at T’il.
      Last edited by bell-the-cat; 04-25-2011 at 01:41 PM.
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    9. #39
      Դէպի Հայրենիք Yedtarts's Avatar
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      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

      The only reason there is a Armenian state today is because of the soviet union which was a athiest structure
      Yet the soviet union itself has collapsed.

      So who forced the majority of Armenians to come back to God and not become atheists or something else. I’m talking about the majority of them.
      I know the church and the majority of religious people are corrupt but you cannot blame people to go to them looking for guidance.

      When I talk about clergy people, I’m not talking about just Christians, all clergy (the majority) are corrupt politicians and actors that can be bought with money or seduced by women.
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    10. #40
      Դէպի Հայրենիք Yedtarts's Avatar
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      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

      Quote Originally Posted by hipeter924 View Post
      The Armenian church preserved Armenian history and culture, but it didn't create most of it (individual Armenians did), there are many Armenian writers, artists and historians (that barely attended or weren't even involved with the Church) that preserved and recorded Armenian history and culture in Western Armenia and Europe, after the Genocide this was mostly lost (and destroyed by the Turks).
      So according to you these writers, artists and historians were atheists just because they did not attend a church or even evolved with it. Maybe they were muslims or jehovah’s witness who knows? Don't give yourselves credits so fast!
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    11. #41
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      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

      Quote Originally Posted by hipeter924 View Post
      The Armenian church preserved Armenian history and culture, but it didn't create most of it (individual Armenians did), there are many Armenian writers, artists and historians (that barely attended or weren't even involved with the Church) that preserved and recorded Armenian history and culture in Western Armenia and Europe, after the Genocide this was mostly lost (and destroyed by the Turks).
      The majority of Armenian history has been documented by the Armenian Church since the 5th century. Historically, the most educated people outside the royalty were the clergy.

    12. #42
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      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

      Quote Originally Posted by Yeznik View Post
      The majority of Armenian history has been documented by the Armenian Church since the 5th century. Historically, the most educated people outside the royalty were the clergy.
      This was true everywhere not just in Armenia. Keeping education limited to the clergy was a form of control over knowledge which is key to making people believe fairytales while you take their money.
      Hayastan or Bust.

    13. #43
      Դէպի Հայրենիք Yedtarts's Avatar
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      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

      After reading most what you guys said let me say few things so maybe this time I can make myself clear. I am a believer in God that is why I consider myself a believer, secondly I believe that Jesus Christ was his son because we all are his children, and I believe Jesus was sent by God to show us the right path of life but not by forcing it on us, that is why I consider myself a Christian. First we should separate the church, the clergies and believers. What is church? Church is a place where believers meet, what is clergy? It started as the Jesus’ apostles, now it’s a mafia that controls the church. What is believers? They are the people that believe in God no matter if they are Muslims Buddhists or believe in supreme power but most are confused because there are no good raw models to guide them. So when I say I am a believer it doesn’t mean I attend church to see how those charlatans (clergies) put an act for people, I go there to pray to God. I refuse to accept when they talk about religious people and church then they say it represent all believers, maybe for the time being the religious people can represent the church and speak for it but the church is God’s house, the day will come and we will take it back from these charlatan actors and politicians.
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    14. #44
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      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

      Quote Originally Posted by Yedtarts View Post
      Yet the soviet union itself has collapsed.

      So who forced the majority of Armenians to come back to God and not become atheists or something else. I’m talking about the majority of them.
      I know the church and the majority of religious people are corrupt but you cannot blame people to go to them looking for guidance.

      When I talk about clergy people, I’m not talking about just Christians, all clergy (the majority) are corrupt politicians and actors that can be bought with money or seduced by women.
      The soviet union was hardly a obsticle as i wrote earlier religion was openly practiced in Armenia for most of the soviet period. As for the clergy-if those who represent something are as you said "corrupt politicians and actors that can be bought with money or seduced by women " then that says something about what they represent to. If religion produces mostly corrupt clergy(says you) then what is the value of such a practice?
      Hayastan or Bust.

    15. #45
      Դէպի Հայրենիք Yedtarts's Avatar
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      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

      Quote Originally Posted by Haykakan View Post
      The soviet union was hardly a obsticle as i wrote earlier religion was openly practiced in Armenia for most of the soviet period. As for the clergy-if those who represent something are as you said "corrupt politicians and actors that can be bought with money or seduced by women " then that says something about what they represent to. If religion produces mostly corrupt clergy(says you) then what is the value of such a practice?
      Should I understand that there are no corrupt atheists or non believers?

      I don’t give a damn about the practice, I care about believing.
      Last edited by Yedtarts; 04-25-2011 at 04:15 PM.
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