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    Thread: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

    1. #16
      Formerly known as axel
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

      "fairy tale"

      not with me.

      i believe i gave you an answer that was that of a realist, the last three lines especially. it is not about asking anyone to be perfect. it is about discipline.

      with reasonings such as yours, anything goes. "human factor", "original sin"...

      another thing, there are political leaders and there are spiritual leaders. if spiritual leaders start acting as political leaders there is no spiritual leadership left.

      as to the reason why this surfaced now, well this is peripheral to the issue at hand.

      the argument according to which one should allow anything so as not to play in the hand of foreign influences is flawed.

      we will be less at the mercy of foreign influences when we are stronger from within. and if we are not, then i believe we should pay.

    2. #17
      Formerly known as axel
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

      and if you don't agree with the above, i think i can equate your brand of nationalism with some sort of weak degenerate sentimentalism.

    3. #18
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

      The problem with Armenian clergy was written about by Hagop Baronian and others in the 19th century. Not much has changed. Most of the people who enter this profession do so because it gives them an easy life. They will pretend they have higher motivations. With some exceptions the majority are there for self-interest. There is no accountability. If a lower ranking clergyman is caught, most of the time he will be supported by the hierarchy and the matter will be closed.

    4. #19
      Truthseeker Armanen's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

      Quote Originally Posted by gkv View Post
      "fairy tale"

      not with me.

      i believe i gave you an answer that was that of a realist, the last three lines especially. it is not about asking anyone to be perfect. it is about discipline.

      with reasonings such as yours, anything goes. "human factor", "original sin"...

      another thing, there are political leaders and there are spiritual leaders. if spiritual leaders start acting as political leaders there is no spiritual leadership left.

      as to the reason why this surfaced now, well this is peripheral to the issue at hand.

      the argument according to which one should allow anything so as not to play in the hand of foreign influences is flawed.

      we will be less at the mercy of foreign influences when we are stronger from within. and if we are not, then i believe we should pay.
      No, you really believe that high ranking spiritual leaders are immune from politics. The cold reality is that they are not, never have been, and in all likelihood will not change. Do you know the history of the popes well? They would make the actions of any of our Catholicos' look like peanuts. So you gave no 'realist' answer, rather an idealic one which of course I'd support but I realize we do not live in an idealic world.

      The only spiritual leader one should have is God and his own moral compass. You should not expect someone to speak for God, and then get bent out of shape when it turns out they are human and make poor choices too sometimes.

      It's kinda hard to be strong from within when we have self destructive peasantry that will scream at the top of their lungs when an Armenian tries to led them but will follow like good sheep when it is a foreigner telling them what to do. And within this peasantry, we also have traitors to the nation who will sell out the entire country just to make a buck or be installed in office. I feel like you have a very poor understanding of the Armenian psyche, of geopolitics, and probably the history of religious organizations as well.
      For the first time in more than 600 years, Armenia is free and independent, and we are therefore obligated
      to place our national interests ahead of our personal gains or aspirations.



      http://www.armenianhighland.com/main.html

    5. #20
      Formerly known as axel
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

      Quote Originally Posted by Armanen
      you have a very poor understanding
      if that's how you want to wrap things up, have it your way.

    6. #21
      Formerly known as axel
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

      anyone watching a combination of bbc, sky, rt and presstv, reading globalresearch.ca and with access to an internet board will hold himself to be a geopolitician nowadays. intersperse a little quote by carl schmitt and gustave le bon and in the world of "armenian peasantry" you will be held for some kind of master mind strategist. armenian forums are teeming with such strategists/experts whose mastery of topics ranges from mythology to history, litterature, theology, psychology, philosophy, politics and warfare (not to mention anthropology, linguistics, archeology... i had to cut the list short)
      if you have some working knowledge of a book by a failed austrian painter, you get promoted to senior expert rank.
      i am overwhelmed. the only decent exit for me is to retreat into my area of competence (fairy tales)

    7. #22
      Truthseeker Armanen's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

      Quote Originally Posted by gkv View Post
      anyone watching a combination of bbc, sky, rt and presstv, reading globalresearch.ca and with access to an internet board will hold himself to be a geopolitician nowadays. intersperse a little quote by carl schmitt and gustave le bon and in the world of "armenian peasantry" you will be held for some kind of master mind strategist. armenian forums are teeming with such strategists/experts whose mastery of topics ranges from mythology to history, litterature, theology, psychology, philosophy, politics and warfare (not to mention anthropology, linguistics, archeology... i had to cut the list short)
      if you have some working knowledge of a book by a failed austrian painter, you get promoted to senior expert rank.
      i am overwhelmed. the only decent exit for me is to retreat into my area of competence (fairy tales)
      For the first time in more than 600 years, Armenia is free and independent, and we are therefore obligated
      to place our national interests ahead of our personal gains or aspirations.



      http://www.armenianhighland.com/main.html

    8. #23
      Registered User bell-the-cat's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

      Quote Originally Posted by londontsi View Post
      http://hetq.am/en/society/56107/

      The above article appeared in the “Hedq” also.

      Looking at the various reader comments .......
      Gone?
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    9. #24
      Registered User bell-the-cat's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

      Quote Originally Posted by londontsi View Post
      Looking at the various reader comments .......
      Plenty of them now on the original article too.

      Most people in Armenia know that His Holiness Karekin II, the Catholicos of All Armenians, has a child. Church is corrupt and bankrupt in Armenia. Kchoyan, Karekin and their gang are called “mafioso” by the people. They are just another oligarchic group, like Lfik Samo, Dodi Gago, Nemec Rubo, Muk, Tsaghik Rubo, Burnash, Jraghaci Levik or whatever the hell his name is, and other “esteemed” robber barons of Armenia. God help us, or should I say – God save us from your servants!
      Really - so has he a child he is keeping hidden somewhere?

      The Catholicos, cavorting with Louise Simon of the AGBU is a fine example to follow.
      He is the biggest oligarch and would put the Borgias to shame.
      The Borgias at least contributed positive things to Italian art and culture. Karekin/Simonian just gave us the obscenity of Yerevan's St Gregory the Illuminator cathedral and the stone quarry opposite Ani.

      Well, he is not the only one. Our Vehapar wants take care of the finances of the churches in France and Switzerland. He wanted to send a vartabed to Geneva in order to get the control but they did not accept him. They said that, we are a small community and don’t need him. He thinks European Armenians are idiots and can not understand the real issue. Same thing is happening in France now. They don,t want Etchmiazin’s control of their money. This is hard to believe. These people can not represent our church and be the head of it. People need to protest this thieves and do everything in order to change this vicious act. It is time to act not only to talk.
      The above point is about the Catholicos recently trying to create a new diocese in Switzerland. I was wondering at the time why the Armenian churches in Switzerland were so completely opposed to it. Now I know why.

      All of the comments could convince me that the "Armanen-types", "yerazhishda-types", "kanadahye-types" who fill this forum with their posts are not actually typical of Armenians everywhere, and are only a loud-mouthed minority.
      Plenipotentiary meow!

    10. #25
      Registered User bell-the-cat's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

      Quote Originally Posted by lampron View Post
      The problem with Armenian clergy was written about by Hagop Baronian and others in the 19th century. Not much has changed. Most of the people who enter this profession do so because it gives them an easy life. They will pretend they have higher motivations. With some exceptions the majority are there for self-interest. There is no accountability. If a lower ranking clergyman is caught, most of the time he will be supported by the hierarchy and the matter will be closed.
      When did this start (or rather re-start). Is it a post independence thing?

      I dont think people became Armenian priests for an easy life in the 1920s or 1930s - and you were almost as likely to be shot in NY for being one as in Armenia (an exaggeration for effect, I know that the Communists even murdered the Catholicos).
      Last edited by bell-the-cat; 04-11-2011 at 09:00 AM.
      Plenipotentiary meow!

    11. #26
      Anarchist KanadaHye's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

      Quote Originally Posted by bell-the-cat View Post

      The above point is about the Catholicos recently trying to create a new diocese in Switzerland. I was wondering at the time why the Armenian churches in Switzerland were so completely opposed to it. Now I know why.

      All of the comments could convince me that the "Armanen-types", "yerazhishda-types", "kanadahye-types" who fill this forum with their posts are not actually typical of Armenians everywhere, and are only a loud-mouthed minority.
      The Catholicos have always been corrupt. They are after all nothing more than men with power.

      There aren't enough voices on this forum to overpower your opinionated loud mouth.
      "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

    12. #27
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

      Quote Originally Posted by bell-the-cat View Post
      When did this start (or rather re-start). Is it a post independence thing?

      I dont think people became Armenian priests for an easy life in the 1920s or 1930s - and you were almost as likely to be shot in NY for being one as in Armenia (an exaggeration for effect, I know that the Communists even murdered the Catholicos).
      there was an assassination in 1930 in New York city. Many people in the Middle east and later in Armenia would choose the priesthood because you could eat well (invitations to homes and banquets), have guaranteed income and be treated like a celebrity. With that status some of them have easily become abusive if their expected fees (for baptisms, weddings or deaths) are not provided. I have witnessed this myself. There would be those who would enter the priesthood on condition of non-celibacy , in order to get the "best of both worlds" -- a stable life with a good income and a wife and family

      Eating well and gossip was high on Armenian clergy's agenda in Istanbul in the 19th century

    13. #28
      Anarchist KanadaHye's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

      Quote Originally Posted by lampron View Post
      there was an assassination in 1930 in New York city. Many people in the Middle east and later in Armenia would choose the priesthood because you could eat well (invitations to homes and banquets), have guaranteed income and be treated like a celebrity. With that status some of them have easily become abusive if their expected fees (for baptisms, weddings or deaths) are not provided. I have witnessed this myself. There would be those who would enter the priesthood on condition of non-celibacy , in order to get the "best of both worlds" -- a stable life with a good income and a wife and family

      Eating well and gossip was high on Armenian clergy's agenda in Istanbul in the 19th century
      I believe the assassination was by an Armenian if I'm not mistaken.
      "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

    14. #29
      Truthseeker Armanen's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

      Funny, I do not see Catholics b*tching about their archbishops wanting to send the money to Rome. You know why? Because all Armenians want to be kings, none want to be the soldiers. Garegin is trying to set up a stricter hierarchy but we have some in the community who stand to lose, so the smear campaign has begun.

      And of course some idiot claims the Catholicos has a kid, and the resident idiot jumps on it. Do people believe everything they read on the internet, especially the comments section of an online newspaper? Sad.
      For the first time in more than 600 years, Armenia is free and independent, and we are therefore obligated
      to place our national interests ahead of our personal gains or aspirations.



      http://www.armenianhighland.com/main.html

    15. #30
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

      Quote Originally Posted by KanadaHye View Post
      The Catholicos have always been corrupt. They are after all nothing more than men with power.
      If that is the case (??)
      Does that make it acceptable.
      Should we be inhibited from expecting (demanding) a higher standard of behaviour?
      Politics is not about the pursuit of morality nor what's right or wrong
      Its about self interest at personal and national level often at odds with the above.
      Great politicians pursue the National interest and small politicians personal interests

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