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    Thread: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

    1. #61
      RAmen Siggie's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

      Click for source

      Still at it...


      Clergymen fight with brooms at Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem
      Palestinian police break up fight at the Church of Nativity, believed to be Jesus' birthplace, after scuffles erupt between Armenian and Greek Orthodox clergymen.

      7:30PM GMT 28 Dec 2011

      Riot police were forced to restore order inside the basilica of the Nativity in Bethlehem after rival groups of Orthodox and Armenian clerics clashed in a dispute over the boundaries of their respective jurisdictions inside the church.

      About 100 clergymen from the Greek Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic churches, armed with brooms, came to blows during the cleaning of the church in preparation for Orthodox Christmas celebrations.

      Witnesses said the former Palestinian Minister of Tourism and Head of the Palestinian forces in the West Bank town were slightly injured during the incident.

      Administration of the church is shared by Catholic, Orthodox, and Armenian Apostolic clerics and the relationships among the different groups have frequently been contentious with similar scuffles having broken out in previous years.
      “If you think you can, or you can’t, you’re right.”
      -Henry Ford

    2. #62
      RAmen Siggie's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

      Click for source

      Still at it...


      Clergymen fight with brooms at Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem
      Palestinian police break up fight at the Church of Nativity, believed to be Jesus' birthplace, after scuffles erupt between Armenian and Greek Orthodox clergymen.

      7:30PM GMT 28 Dec 2011

      Riot police were forced to restore order inside the basilica of the Nativity in Bethlehem after rival groups of Orthodox and Armenian clerics clashed in a dispute over the boundaries of their respective jurisdictions inside the church.

      About 100 clergymen from the Greek Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic churches, armed with brooms, came to blows during the cleaning of the church in preparation for Orthodox Christmas celebrations.

      Witnesses said the former Palestinian Minister of Tourism and Head of the Palestinian forces in the West Bank town were slightly injured during the incident.

      Administration of the church is shared by Catholic, Orthodox, and Armenian Apostolic clerics and the relationships among the different groups have frequently been contentious with similar scuffles having broken out in previous years.
      “If you think you can, or you can’t, you’re right.”
      -Henry Ford

    3. #63
      Տեսէ'ք զի քաղցր է Տէր yerazhishda's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

      Quote Originally Posted by Siggie View Post
      Click for source

      Still at it...
      This says more about the culture of Jerusalem than it does about our church.
      «Արթուն մնացէ'ք եւ աղօթք արէ'ք, որպէսզի փորձութեան մէջ չընկնէք:»

      Մատթէոս 26:41

    4. #64
      RAmen Siggie's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

      Quote Originally Posted by yerazhishda View Post
      This says more about the culture of Jerusalem than it does about our church.
      Were clergymen of "our" church behaving badly or not? Why should clergy of any church behave that way?
      “If you think you can, or you can’t, you’re right.”
      -Henry Ford

    5. #65
      Սպարապետ Federate's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

      I say good job Armenians, don't take xxxx from Greeks. Broomstick their ass! (sounds dirty)
      Azerbaboon: 9.000 Google hits and counting!

    6. #66
      Տեսէ'ք զի քաղցր է Տէր yerazhishda's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

      Quote Originally Posted by Siggie View Post
      Were clergymen of "our" church behaving badly or not? Why should clergy of any church behave that way?
      Along with the turn the other cheek clause, there's also that part about man being imperfect.

      Priests/monk are no less subject to this than your regular lay person (obviously).
      «Արթուն մնացէ'ք եւ աղօթք արէ'ք, որպէսզի փորձութեան մէջ չընկնէք:»

      Մատթէոս 26:41

    7. #67
      RAmen Siggie's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

      Quote Originally Posted by Federate View Post
      I say good job Armenians, don't take xxxx from Greeks. Broomstick their ass! (sounds dirty)



      Quote Originally Posted by yerazhishda View Post
      Along with the turn the other cheek clause, there's also that part about man being imperfect.

      Priests/monk are no less subject to this than your regular lay person (obviously).
      Yes, that's what I expected you'd say. Now, that requires acknowledging too, that they didn't behave well or in the way their religion would encourage them to, right? Don't just make a comment diverting attention from the fact that regardless of x, y, z, they didn't do the right thing.

      Perhaps morality is independent of religion afterall?
      “If you think you can, or you can’t, you’re right.”
      -Henry Ford

    8. #68
      Anarchist KanadaHye's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

      Quote Originally Posted by Siggie View Post




      Yes, that's what I expected you'd say. Now, that requires acknowledging too, that they didn't behave well or in the way their religion would encourage them to, right? Don't just make a comment diverting attention from the fact that regardless of x, y, z, they didn't do the right thing.

      Perhaps morality is independent of religion afterall?
      That depends on what you define as moral. Moses only presented 10 commandments to society. The modern law system has an encyclopedia worth of commandments yet none of them prevent the decay of morality.
      "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

    9. #69
      RAmen Siggie's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

      Quote Originally Posted by KanadaHye View Post
      That depends on what you define as moral. Moses only presented 10 commandments to society. The modern law system has an encyclopedia worth of commandments yet none of them prevent the decay of morality.
      Certainly. I think a lot of them can also be summarized under fewer "umbrella" rules, but yes... People all over behave badly and the majority of them are adherents to some world religion (in the US and Europe, this tends to be Christianity). If people truly believed that they were going to burn for ETERNITY for "sinning" (some sins don't constitute immoral behavior, imo), how can they still do it? Why doesn't it deter?

      Many are good without god and many are bad with god. I just don't think these things are bound as closely as some imply or out-and-out claim. That's all I'm saying.
      “If you think you can, or you can’t, you’re right.”
      -Henry Ford

    10. #70
      Anarchist KanadaHye's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

      Quote Originally Posted by Siggie View Post
      Certainly. I think a lot of them can also be summarized under fewer "umbrella" rules, but yes... People all over behave badly and the majority of them are adherents to some world religion (in the US and Europe, this tends to be Christianity). If people truly believed that they were going to burn for ETERNITY for "sinning" (some sins don't constitute immoral behavior, imo), how can they still do it? Why doesn't it deter?

      Many are good without god and many are bad with god. I just don't think these things are bound as closely as some imply or out-and-out claim. That's all I'm saying.
      People may do immoral things because they have no choice. For example, how many people are in debt? If you think of money in practical terms, borrowing money from the future is stealing from your children. Most people wouldn't steal from their children but they do (without seeing the implications) borrow money from the future. Now, if a person died with money, that money used to get passed down to the next generation. What if, debt was treated in the same manner? After all, if you can inherit wealth, you can surely inherit debt.
      "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

    11. #71
      Տեսէ'ք զի քաղցր է Տէր yerazhishda's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

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      «Արթուն մնացէ'ք եւ աղօթք արէ'ք, որպէսզի փորձութեան մէջ չընկնէք:»

      Մատթէոս 26:41

    12. #72
      Death by Internet jgk3's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

      A priest is just a sinner charged with the task of reciting biblical texts and calling out their congregation for the greatest sin of them all, not supporting the church!
      I was taught how to think.

    13. #73
      Տեսէ'ք զի քաղցր է Տէր yerazhishda's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

      Quote Originally Posted by jgk3 View Post
      A priest is just a sinner charged with the task of reciting biblical texts and calling out their congregation for the greatest sin of them all, not supporting the church!
      That's pretty cynical.
      «Արթուն մնացէ'ք եւ աղօթք արէ'ք, որպէսզի փորձութեան մէջ չընկնէք:»

      Մատթէոս 26:41

    14. #74
      Death by Internet jgk3's Avatar
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

      Quote Originally Posted by yerazhishda View Post
      That's pretty cynical.
      Maybe a lot of people feel this cynical sentiment... maybe in this precious institution, there is a grain of truth regarding this criticism, just as a pearl is formed around a grain of sand. And maybe that grain of sand needs to be admitted in order to better understand the nature of the pearl.
      I was taught how to think.

    15. #75
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      Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

      http://news.am/eng/news/111708.html

      Istanbul Armenian is buried in accordance with Islamic rites

      June 30, 2012 | 14:45

      ISTANBUL. – Another news item published in Istanbul’s Agos Armenian bilingual weekly is widely covered by the Turkish press.

      According to the news article, in order to organize the funeral service of Istanbul Armenian Harutyun Kambarizoglu who died at the age of 87, the Surp Garabet Armenian Church of Istanbul had asked for 8,000 Turkish liras (approx. US$ 4,420) from his daughter Anna Tasciyan, but since she could not pay that amount, she buried her father in accordance with Islamic rites and in a Turkish cemetery.

      In an interview with Haberturk, Anna Tasciyan noted that she very much wished to bury her father with Christian customs, but their financial capabilities were insufficient for this, Beyazgazete website reports.

      It is noted that Tasciyan had asked the Church to allow her to pay the 8,000 liras in installments, but she was denied this request.

      “[So,] I had to accept that my father be buried in accordance with Islamic rites and in a Turkish cemetery,” said Anna Tasciyan.

      Armenian Church representative Osin Mumcuyan, on the other hand, noted that they had informed the relative of the deceased about the price list of the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople and there was nothing else to do.

      But the Patriarchate’s Spiritual Council Chairman, Reverend Father Tatul Anushyan claimed they were uninformed of all this and had they known, they would not have allowed it.
      Politics is not about the pursuit of morality nor what's right or wrong
      Its about self interest at personal and national level often at odds with the above.
      Great politicians pursue the National interest and small politicians personal interests

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