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    Thread: Who owns what in Armenia

    1. #61
      Lenakantsi Karo KarotheGreat's Avatar
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      Re: Who owns what in Armenia

      Quote Originally Posted by Lernakan View Post
      Karo jan what happened to you? I remember our talks years ago on msn with several other ex-members on this forum. What happened to the Karo from back then? Your latest posts on this forum have been very simplistic to say the least, it seems you let your emotions do the thinking for you instead of using your mind. Apsos...
      I grew up and saw that there was more complexity to the world that I could have imagined then. The more I learned about economy and politics the more my view of life and politics changed. I have changed a lot. I feel like a better person, I have never been happier than I am today.



      The government is a reflection of its people. It doesn't matter who (which individual) is in charge, the reality is the oligarchs are a by-product of our society. If you took someone from the street who's constantly complaining about the oligarchs and criminals in government and you made him a millionaire overnight, in 99% of the cases he would act exactly the same way as the people he's criticising. I'm sure of this because if you look closely you'll see that corrupt state of mind everywhere around you. Just a simple example: A man goes to see a doctor who is a relative or a friend of the family. He arrives there and sees a whole bunch of people waiting for their turn. The doctor comes out to the waiting room and sees his relative, ignores the other people waiting there and calls the man in just because he knows him.
      We see the same favoritism in politics although the impact of it is bigger, I think the smaller sin is just as wrong as the bigger sin. You can see many examples of this in our society but somehow, people like YOU expect our government officials to become saints when they reach office. Now honestly ask this question to yourself, how would you and the people close to you act when you were that man visiting the doctor? Would you say no and wait for your turn or walk in smiling, feeling good about yourself?
      I actually expect our government officials to follow the rules and stop this BS. I am strong believer of meritocracy, how can I not be as an immigrant in a foreign country where my worth is viewed as what I am able to do and not who I know or who my dad is. This is also the way that I view other people, and also what I expect from other people. I expect there to be rule of law, something that does not exist in Armenia today. I expect Armenia to be a state of ideals not a corrupt hell hole that its population are trying to abandon on mass.
      You can turn it as many times as you want but the situation will not change, the population of Armenia wants to leave the country today! There are many reasons for it, but the biggest and most important reason is that most of them cannot find a job in Armenia today. While a small elite that is connected to the regime, be the Sarkisian regime or the Kocharian regime or the LTP regime, are enriching themselves while the ordinary citizen is chocked by these criminals.

      What we need is an evolution in the mentality of our people, this takes generations but I believe (if everything remains stable) our people will reach that level of consciousness, where they understand that national interests should always come before personal interests. It takes time but we will get there, now that we have an independent Armenia - which is essential for developing this kind of mindset. You were educated in Belgium, you should know that not even a century ago Western Europe was also run by "oligarchs" as you call them. Then some (first one then two then others followed and politicians seeing the support it got from the population also followed) of these rich businessmen reached a level of consciousness where they understood it was their moral obligation to give something back to society. They initiated the movement for social benefits and workers rights.
      Armenia does not have the luxury of time. It has to change now or become a footnote in history! How long can Armenia take the exodus of its people? how many more years until there aren't enough people in the country to defend the border? The last two decades Armenia has seen a real brain drain, the first ones out where the highly educated ones. How many more of that can Armenia handle? The biggest difference is that the social and economical changes came with violence in many European countries, with workers rising up and demanding more rights. With strikes and riots, they demanded and got their rights. It was struggle for them to gain rights. While in other parts of the world a whole civil war was fought to free a part of the population and almost a hundred years there was need for more violence, strikes, marches to get things really changes. If you leave it up to the elites that rule the country nothing will ever change, because they fear that they will be the ones to lose power and wealth. Why do you think Carrefour is being kept away from the Armenian markets?


      Very simplistic statement you make here. Who are those people you're talking about? Do you mean Sarkis86, Vahram and the other patriots on here who actually understand there is more to it than just the oligarchs? And please the number of people whining about the oligarchs is far higher than the people who actually understand that there is more to it. Just read some of the discussions on facebook or blogs and you even have your own media (hetq, armenianow) which are always crying foul about the oh so bad oligarchs. Maybe we're just sick and tired of the constant crying, whining and pessimism which you and others like you propagate. While you people think about changing the government and removing the bad oligarchs, installing american style "democracy", human rights and other blabla - We actually think how we can work with what we've got and remove "the bad guys" gradually, when the time is right. Besides it's better to work with the "dog" you know than start a revolution and bring new "dogs" or foreign "dogs" to power and start all over again.
      Let us say tomorrow all blockades against Armenia will be abolished, will that change the economical situation in Armenia? Will there be a difference in 10 years? No it wont, the only difference will be that the rich in Armenia will get even more richer and will be able to buy a couple of more cars or build a hotel or a church. There will be no change for the ordinary Armenian because today there is no open economy in Armenia. There are artificial barriers of entry, these barriers are even illegal. They are not set up by the government, but are set up by the ones close to the government to protect the industry of their choice. How can Armenia grow today or tomorrow, when the price of oil is artificially controlled by the import monopoly of one oligarch? How will removing all of the dangers Armenia faces externally going to change that?
      The only way that this can change is by popular demand of the people of reforms and today the Armenian population doesn't demand such a thing the only thing that they want is their man in power. So I feel it is my job to demand those things to raise them up, because no one else is.
      The real danger to Armenia is not the Turkish or Azerbaijani military but the closed economy of Armenia, where some tugs can control the economy and buy off any official that they want. The ones that they cannot buy off they can remove by force. This reminds me very much of the same situation in Africa after the states gained independence there and 50-60 years most countries there are still dirt poor, and the ones that moved away from poverty like Botswana did that through pluralistic governments and economical institutions.




      Please, the RPA is the only respectable political force we have today. What about the PAP are they clear of "oligarchs"? Or even the ANC (remember sukiasyan)? The RPA needs to clean house but this also takes time. However our respectable president Serzh Sargsyan has started this process. Just think of the mayor in Gyumri (also RPA member) which rightfully got removed for mr. Balasanyan (PAP member) with the full support of the RPA! Not everything is as simple as you would like it to be.
      Revolutions don't bring anything good, there have been enough examples for you to see the last couple of years. If you think it would somehow be different for Armenia you're dreaming. There is this saying in Armenian which I don't remember exactly word for word but it goes something like this: "Revolutions are thought out by "intellectuals" (typically the western educated, arrogant, brainwashed types), initiated/started by students (the hot blooded-not in control of their emotions types) and won by the "srikaner" (the "oligarchs" as you call them).
      How can a force that is affiliated with criminals be respectable? When the brother of the president is one of the biggest oligarchs in the country? What does that say of our country when a person like that can become president? The only politician that I respect in Armenia today is Tigran Sarkisian, one of the reasons that I respect the man so much is that he is hated by every oligarch in the country. If one man can bring change it is him!
      So a patriot to you is someone that follows the government and its policy with questioning it or its motives?
      You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience!!!!!!!

      "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Voltaire

    2. #62
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      Re: Who owns what in Armenia

      Karo,

      I don't want to quote anything you say except on thing at the end of my post. If you think that there are any real Armenians here who don't want Armenia to shine you are sadly mistaken. We have wishes too, and sadly after reading a lot of economics/geopolitics and seeing this world form the Lebanese/Armenian/American eyes I have a life of seeing things. The rest of the time I spend reading and learning even more of this world then I should. When America is overrun by oligarchs that you have to call "capitalists" who own and run the elections with their money and greed. How could you have such unrealistic fantasies?

      When 50 Million Americans are on foodstamps, when more have lost their homes to the oligarchs, who sold them homes at inflated prices and collected them back at dirt cheap prices. Who even got the very same people who they victimized to pay them even more money for "the good of the country" I ask myself just what idealistic world you are really living in?

      What is wrong with going slow, careful and taking only as much as we can chew on a bite at a time? What is the rush? When you are in a blockade you make it seem like everything bad that has happened to us was because of our own doing. This is simply not a reasonable approach.





      I grew up and saw that there was more complexity to the world that I could have imagined then. The more I learned about economy and politics the more my view of life and politics changed. I have changed a lot. I feel like a better person, I have never been happier than I am today.
      I hope you continue to be happier then you are today, but for Armenia's sake please stop looking at the world through rose colored idealistic fantasy glasses. As this fantasy of some of our people is more dangerous then the stinking toorks.
      Last edited by Vahram; 02-05-2013 at 06:23 PM.

    3. #63
      Lenakantsi Karo KarotheGreat's Avatar
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      Re: Who owns what in Armenia

      Quote Originally Posted by Vahram View Post
      Karo,

      I don't want to quote anything you say except on thing at the end of my post. If you think that there are any real Armenians here who don't want Armenia to shine you are sadly mistaken. We have wishes too, and sadly after reading a lot of economics/geopolitics and seeing this world form the Lebanese/Armenian/American eyes I have a life of seeing things. The rest of the time I spend reading and learning even more of this world then I should. When America is overrun by oligarchs that you have to call "capitalists" who own and run the elections with their money and greed. How could you have such unrealistic fantasies?
      Show me those American Oligarchs! Here is the definition of an oligarch, "Oligarchy is a form of power structure in which power effectively rests with a small number of people. These people could be distinguished by royalty, wealth, family ties, education, corporate, or military control. Such states are often controlled by a few prominent families who pass their influence from one generation to the next"
      Who is this happening in America today? And no posting some BS video of some redneck that does not want to pay income taxes and thinks every form of government is enslavement doesn't work. These people do not even know what real tyranny is and what real Fascism is.

      When 50 Million Americans are on foodstamps, when more have lost their homes to the oligarchs, who sold them homes at inflated prices and collected them back at dirt cheap prices. Who even got the very same people who they victimized to pay them even more money for "the good of the country" I ask myself just what idealistic world you are really living in?
      Well let us forget the fact that the US was hit by the largest economical and financial crisis since the great depression. Who is paying taxes not in the good of the country? How do you think governments pay for schools, road etc? Who are those victims? Half of the Us doesn't even pay income taxes today. Who are those victims that cannot pay those taxes? The ultra rich?


      What is wrong with going slow, careful and taking only as much as we can chew on a bite at a time? What is the rush? When you are in a blockade you make it seem like everything bad that has happened to us was because of our own doing. This is simply not a reasonable approach.
      Does Armenia have the time? How long before everyone decide to leave the country? Today there is an exodus going on from Armenia to Europe and Russia. How long before there are more Armenians in Russia than there are in Armenia?
      So tell me how does the blockade change anything in the internal economy of the country 20 years after the fact? I can understand that when the blockade was in place you could blame it for a lot of problems, like not getting some goods etc. but even then you could not blame the blockade for the way that the oligarchs act.
      Today one oligarch has blocked the entry of Carrefour to the Armenian market. Do you know what the business strategy of Carrefour is? When they enter a market they aim to be market leader or second in the market. That means in next couple of years more retail stores, that offer cheap food would be opened in Armenia. So the Armenian people lost a business opportunity, the Armenian people have lost 100's of jobs. Those families could have gotten a job and not have moved out of the country! The Armenian people also lost the fact that the prices in the Armenian markets would go down. The Armenian government lost tax revenues. This all happened because one criminal has an illegal monopoly and thinks he is above the law. The government not acting against him proves there is no rule of law in Armenia today and there are two sets of law in Armenia.
      You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience!!!!!!!

      "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Voltaire

    4. #64
      Lenakantsi Karo KarotheGreat's Avatar
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      Re: Who owns what in Armenia

      Armenian MP not conducting business? – newspaper

      Armenian MP not conducting business? – newspaperFebruary 06, 2013 | 08:31

      YEREVAN. – “I’m not doing business.” Armenian National Assembly’s (NA) ruling Republican Party (RPA) Faction MP Samvel Aleksanyan stated this, in response to the query as to whether it is true that it was through his “efforts” that the contract was severed with the well-known French Carrefour hypermarket chain, which planned to open up a branch in Armenia, Zhamanak daily reports.

      “The [NA] RPA Faction MP, who imports essential goods to Armenia, evaded our other questions, too.

      As we have already informed, according to some governmental sources, [capital city Yerevan’s] Dalma [Garden] Mall’s proprietor, Russian-Armenian businessman Samvel Karapetyan finally severed the contract with the renowned French Carrefour hypermarket chain, and this was primarily carried out as a result of the active efforts by Samvel Aleksanyan,” Zhamanak writes.
      You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience!!!!!!!

      "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Voltaire

    5. #65
      Registered User Lernakan's Avatar
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      Re: Who owns what in Armenia

      Quote Originally Posted by KarotheGreat View Post
      I grew up and saw that there was more complexity to the world that I could have imagined then. The more I learned about economy and politics the more my view of life and politics changed. I have changed a lot. I feel like a better person, I have never been happier than I am today.
      You say you understand the world is more complex than you thought, yet from your comments it seems you don't think the same applies to Armenia. For you its all black and white when it comes to the situation in Armenia. That's rather contradictory isn't it? I wonder what books you have "read" because your view on economy and politics hasn't changed for the better I would say.
      I'm glad you're happy, seriously.



      I actually expect our government officials to follow the rules and stop this BS. I am strong believer of meritocracy, how can I not be as an immigrant in a foreign country where my worth is viewed as what I am able to do and not who I know or who my dad is. This is also the way that I view other people, and also what I expect from other people. I expect there to be rule of law, something that does not exist in Armenia today. I expect Armenia to be a state of ideals not a corrupt hell hole that its population are trying to abandon on mass.
      Some of your expectations will come out in due time. Others are simply too "idealistic" for this world. Corruption is inherent to humanity and no nation on earth is exempt from it. In some countries people have to deal with corruption on every level while in other countries it's only reserved for the elite and most of the people are ignorant of it. In these nations corruption has become institutionalised, for example the lobbying (bribery) practice in America.



      You can turn it as many times as you want but the situation will not change, the population of Armenia wants to leave the country today! There are many reasons for it, but the biggest and most important reason is that most of them cannot find a job in Armenia today. While a small elite that is connected to the regime, be the Sarkisian regime or the Kocharian regime or the LTP regime, are enriching themselves while the ordinary citizen is chocked by these criminals.
      As opposed to you I do see positive changes in Armenia year by year. For people who want to work there are jobs in Armenia, the ones complaining about having no job should search harder. Perhaps take a job which doesn't have anything to do with their education but still work is work. However most of those whiners just want to become a manager in a instant and won't take jobs that are below their "level". I have many friends who are educated and hard working. All of them and their wives have respectable jobs. One of them changed his job three times! last year and another one went working for another bank with double increase in his pay. These are people who instead of only complaining and whining actually do something.
      Besides emigration is part of this globalised world and exists everywhere:

      Dutch emigrate en masse

      by Harrie Nijen Twilhaar
      THE HAGUE -
      The number of people emigrating increases rapidly increasing. In 2012 left according to the Central Bureau of Statistics 395 people a day our country out of dissatisfaction with the political climate, the dramatic consequences of the economic crisis and hardening in society.

      Especially Germany, Belgium and England, according to the CBS is still the most popular emigration countries. The Scandinavian countries are clearly on the rise due to an attractive living and working environment. Last year 144,175 compatriots took their bags. From current CBS figures show that over the last years again there is an increase in the number of emigrants. In 2011 was about 133,194 (365 per day) and emigrants in 2010 to 121 351 (333 per day).
      And this for one of the wealthiest and liberal country in the world. I understand the situation for Armenia with a small population is different but I do not believe the hype around it. Most of the people go for seasonal work to Russia and most of them return later. Of course there are a couple thousand who leave for the US, Russia and Europe hoping to find a better life but you can never stop that. The grass always looks greener on the other side.


      Armenia does not have the luxury of time. It has to change now or become a footnote in history! How long can Armenia take the exodus of its people? how many more years until there aren't enough people in the country to defend the border? The last two decades Armenia has seen a real brain drain, the first ones out where the highly educated ones. How many more of that can Armenia handle?

      Ever since Armenia got independent we have heard these credo's from people like you. If we were to believe you Armenia would have stopped existing the moment it got independent. I don't see any of that, if you look further you'll see that there is no lack of "brains" there. Just think of the latest investments in IT (Tumo Centre and also a new Tumo Centre opening in Dilijan) and the Byurakan observatory comes to mind. Also Armenian students always win prizes at international tournaments in different scientific fields. You should come out of those "political and economical" books that you've been "reading" and open your eyes to what's going on in the real world. While you're only complaining and whining some people are actually doing something about it and investing millions in Armenia (like the TUMO centre and different economical investments by Russian-Armenians).


      Let us say tomorrow all blockades against Armenia will be abolished, will that change the economical situation in Armenia? Will there be a difference in 10 years? No it wont, the only difference will be that the rich in Armenia will get even more richer and will be able to buy a couple of more cars or build a hotel or a church. There will be no change for the ordinary Armenian because today there is no open economy in Armenia. There are artificial barriers of entry, these barriers are even illegal. They are not set up by the government, but are set up by the ones close to the government to protect the industry of their choice. How can Armenia grow today or tomorrow, when the price of oil is artificially controlled by the import monopoly of one oligarch? How will removing all of the dangers Armenia faces externally going to change that?
      It's a gradual process but it's happening right before your eyes. The thing is you're not willing to see it. In the first years of independence the economic elite was the political elite. There was no difference between them. Now, though very slowly, a new political elite is forming. Of course they will stay dependent on the economic elite for now but this will change with the generations.


      The only way that this can change is by popular demand of the people of reforms and today the Armenian population doesn't demand such a thing the only thing that they want is their man in power. So I feel it is my job to demand those things to raise them up, because no one else is.
      Yes do that, it will actually matter when you raise those issues in these forums . Really, I'd rather have you wasting your negative energy here on the web than doing it on the streets of Yerevan. However on your first point, you have to agree that the current government is paying more attention to the demands of society than any other government we have had in the past. I believe mr. Serzh Sargsyan's government is sometimes even too lenient to the whims of some elements in our society.


      The real danger to Armenia is not the Turkish or Azerbaijani military but the closed economy of Armenia, where some tugs can control the economy and buy off any official that they want.
      Everyone has it's price. No politician is completely independent from the economic elite, the situation is the same in most of the countries in the world.


      How can a force that is affiliated with criminals be respectable? When the brother of the president is one of the biggest oligarchs in the country? What does that say of our country when a person like that can become president?

      Mr. Serzh Sargsyan is the best option as president we have today and I think he's doing a very good job domestically and internationally. Of course he is also dependent on the economic elite but as a good chess player he's eliminating them one by one. During his tenure there have been arrests and prosecutions of different officials in higher office which was unprecedented for Armenia. He can't help that his brother turned about to be like this, but I'm sure if it wasn't for our respectable president Serzh Sargsyan the "oligarchs" would be roaming more freely on the streets and do more damage to society than now. At least now they do things more discreetly, like they should.


      The only politician that I respect in Armenia today is Tigran Sarkisian, one of the reasons that I respect the man so much is that he is hated by every oligarch in the country. If one man can bring change it is him!
      So a patriot to you is someone that follows the government and its policy with questioning it or its motives?

      You're very funny, thanks for the laugh! I'm sure mr. Tigran Sargsyan will be flattered if he reads this. However he in contrast to you understands that he is no Superman and were he to make such a move the sharks in our society would eat him alive. Also remember that it is thanks to our respectable president Serzh Sargsyan that Tigran Sargsyan is in office. Without the support of president Serzh Sargsyan, Tigran Sargsyan would never be a prime-minister. Despite all the criticism our president Serzh Sargsyan is getting from the economic elite he is still keeping Tigran Sargsyan in office. You should show some respect for that and if you were following the politics in Armenia closely you would surely know this.
      This shows that the political elite is in a process of becoming less (it can never by fully) dependent on the economic elite. Also if I'm not mistaken somewhere you said that you hoped the PAP would become a genuine oppositional force in Armenia. Don't forget the PAP has been very critical on Tigran Sargsyan and would remove him from office if they could.

      You shouldn't ascribe things to me which I've never said or implicated.

      I hadn't been on the forum for a long time but yesterday I read some of your discussions with Armanen. I understand that you and me will never agree on anything so let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. I understand I was the one who started this discussion, surprised as I was to read your pessimistic statements regarding Armenia. I'm sorry for starting it and I will just ignore your rants in the future.

      What I also find very contradicting is you acting like you care much about Armenia and truly believing that the end of Armenia is near and that it's all doom and gloom there but at the same time you're saying you've never been happier in your life than now. How can a man who cares for his country and believes the end is coming and there is no hope, be happy in his life? Just a question I'm asking myself, you don't need to answer it. Unless of course you feel the need for it.

      Stay happy Karo jan and please relieve your frustations here on the forum with negative comments about Armenia when you feel like it. I won't say anything anymore.
      Last edited by Lernakan; 02-06-2013 at 01:28 PM.
      Yes Tseghakron Em - Yev aha K'yerdnum Vahagni Achi Vrah Yerbek Chmexanchel Ukhtis Dem - Aprel, Gorcel u Mernel Vorpes Tsexamard.

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      theriseofrussia.blogspot.com

    6. #66
      Registered User Lernakan's Avatar
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      Re: Who owns what in Armenia

      Quote Originally Posted by Vahram View Post
      When America is overrun by oligarchs that you have to call "capitalists" who own and run the elections with their money and greed. How could you have such unrealistic fantasies?

      When 50 Million Americans are on foodstamps, when more have lost their homes to the oligarchs, who sold them homes at inflated prices and collected them back at dirt cheap prices. Who even got the very same people who they victimized to pay them even more money for "the good of the country" I ask myself just what idealistic world you are really living in?
      Well said Vahram jan, America does have it's own share of oligarchs. I can recommend the following book by the renowned scholar William Engdahl:

      http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Money-Str...+gods+of+money

      His research took him thirty years of his life and three books were written by him. The first one is
      "Full Spectrum Dominance: Totalitarian Democracy in the New World Order" He concludes each chapter with references to the source so you can look everything up for yourself.
      The other two books are:

      "Gods of Money: Wall Street and the Death of the American Century" (see link above)
      "Seeds of Destruction: The Hidden Agenda of Genetic Manipulation" here he touches on the GMO industry which is a very interesting topic. I saw that there was a discussion going on about GMO's on this forum. I will post some of his articles regarding this topic later.

      One of the reasons he started his research was when he heard the following declaration by Henry Kissinger in the 1970's:
      If you control the oil, you control entire nations. If you control the food, you control the people. If you control the money, you control the entire world.



      Thanks for the video Vahram! I watched the first few minutes and it seems quite interesting. I will watch the rest tonight. If you are interested I can also recommend the following documentary:



      It's made by the BBC and it's called the century of the self. It's a four part documentary (each part takes one hour).
      Last edited by Lernakan; 02-06-2013 at 01:31 PM.
      Yes Tseghakron Em - Yev aha K'yerdnum Vahagni Achi Vrah Yerbek Chmexanchel Ukhtis Dem - Aprel, Gorcel u Mernel Vorpes Tsexamard.

      www.armenianhighland.com

      theriseofrussia.blogspot.com

    7. #67
      Lenakantsi Karo KarotheGreat's Avatar
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      Re: Who owns what in Armenia

      Well said Vahram jan, America does have it's own share of oligarchs. I can recommend the following book by the renowned scholar William Engdahl:

      http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Money-Str...+gods+of+money

      His research took him thirty years of his life and three books were written by him. The first one is
      "Full Spectrum Dominance: Totalitarian Democracy in the New World Order" He concludes each chapter with references to the source so you can look everything up for yourself.
      The other two books are:

      "Gods of Money: Wall Street and the Death of the American Century" (see link above)
      "Seeds of Destruction: The Hidden Agenda of Genetic Manipulation" here he touches on the GMO industry which is a very interesting topic. I saw that there was a discussion going on about GMO's on this forum. I will post some of his articles regarding this topic later.

      One of the reasons he started his research was when he heard the following declaration by Henry Kissinger in the 1970's:
      If you control the oil, you control entire nations. If you control the food, you control the people. If you control the money, you control the entire world.



      Thanks for the video Vahram! I watched the first few minutes and it seems quite interesting. I will watch the rest tonight. If you are interested I can also recommend the following documentary:
      This guy is a snake oil merchant, a new world order theorists that believes petroleum is not biological. Who can anyone even advise an other person to read one of his books?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._William_Engdahl

      If anyone wants to get an insight in to economy start with Adam Smith and Ricardo. Then move to Friedman, and ofcourse the Austrian school vs Keynes. To see the different theories of government can play and should play in the economy. After that maybe a little bit of Marx to show the other part of isle. You cannot form a grounded opinion without knowing both sides of the debate. But stay away from snake oil merchants like this author.
      if you are looking for an Armenian economist I advise you to read, Acemoglu. He is an Armenian from Istanbul who is a professor at MIT.
      Last edited by KarotheGreat; 02-06-2013 at 01:49 PM.
      You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience!!!!!!!

      "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Voltaire

    8. #68
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      Re: Who owns what in Armenia

      If anyone wants to get an insight in to economy start with Adam Smith
      LOL, I mean with all the known mistakes in Smiths work how could you even begin to talk modern economics and base it on Smith? You know what I call your bluff how is that? You want to preach nonsense I call you bluff!

      For someone that so easily dismisses the blockade, the war, the earthquake and every thing else. For you to stand before me and make excuse for 50 million starving Americans by saying the following:

      Well let us forget the fact that the US was hit by the largest economical and financial crisis since the great depression.
      While dismissing every issue Armenia has, guess what, the game is on and I'm calling your BLUFF!

      I also see you just become a MOD! Wow how tactical was that move? Hmmm People that still read Marx want to know...LOL

      After that maybe a little bit of Marx to show the other part of isle
      LOL, and ignoring economic facts of the fall of the FSU, the war, the earthquake, the blockade and an active war/standoff. You can still have the time and stomach to quote Marx? The very guy that dealt Armenia a swift economic blow, because questioning minds want to know. Guess what I'm calling your Bluff!

      Why are Armenian issues so easily brushed aside by you yet you feel like defending American ones that pale in relation to what Armenian is experiencing, should not even be put next to each other. One is a giant the other a little guy, yet the excuses are only for the big guy...NICE! Where can we learn some of these tricks of yours. Fact of the matter is you have a big Fail on one side, and success on the other. Maybe you should relay the message to those that pay you for this service, tell them to kiss my Armenian Arse!


      Before you post stupid things about people who have destroyed more of this planet then many dictators wish they could. Why don't you look at some more contemporary economic specialists not on the same payroll as yourself!

      Last edited by Vahram; 02-06-2013 at 02:27 PM.

    9. #69
      Lenakantsi Karo KarotheGreat's Avatar
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      Re: Who owns what in Armenia

      Quote Originally Posted by Vahram View Post
      LOL, I mean with all the known mistakes in Smiths work how could you even begin to talk modern economics and base it on Smith? You know what I call your bluff how is that? You want to preach nonsense I call you bluff!
      What bluff are you talking about? And how can you discuss economics without Adam Smith, Ricardo etc.? These are the basics of economy. Those should be the basics you learn when you are learning about the economy. You cannot understand how the economy works without them. Same way you cannot understand how macro economics work without Keynes.

      For someone that so easily dismisses the blockade, the war, the earthquake and every thing else. For you to stand before me and make excuse for 50 million starving Americans by saying the following:
      So should we use the dot com bubble, the crisis in 92 to justify the 50 million 'starving' people? Because that is what you are doing in Armenias case right now. In the first ten years you could have used any of the excuses and it still would have been valid but it has been almost 25 years since the earthquake, 19 years since the war ended and 20 years since the blockade. The Armenian economy has had enough time to adapt, and it has adapted but the people that are enjoy the adaptation is a small, very small minority that is connected to the ruling elite.



      While dismissing every issue Armenia has, guess what, the game is on and I'm calling your BLUFF!

      I also see you just become a MOD! Wow how tactical was that move? Hmmm People that still read Marx want to know...LOL
      How can you dismiss Marx if you do not read his theories? How can you dismiss something without studying it?
      What does me becoming a mod have to do with anything?



      LOL, and ignoring economic facts of the fall of the FSU, the war, the earthquake, the blockade and an active war/standoff. You can still have the time and stomach to quote Marx? The very guy that dealt Armenia a swift economic blow, because questioning minds want to know. Guess what I'm calling your Bluff!
      What bluff? what are you talking about? Ofcourse I have the time to read and discuss Marx, to be able to disagree with someone and their ideas you need to study their ideas first.

      Why are Armenian issues so easily brushed aside by you yet you feel like defending American ones that pale in relation and should not even be put next to each other. Fact of the matter is you have a big Fail on one side, and success on the other. Maybe you should relay the message those that pay you for this service, tell them to kiss my Armenian Arse!
      What issues am I brushing aside? Or is not agreeing with you and blaming everything that goes wrong in the world on the West called brushing aside issues.
      What is the big fail and the big success? If you ask me the success is an open and innovative economy and the fail is what Armenia has in many of its industries today that are controlled by strongmen connected to the governemnt. If you do not believe me look at Egypt, and how after the collapse of the economy the government followed suit and a new government will fall soon as well because they could not correct the economy.
      Again what are you talking about?


      Before you quote has bins, and people who have destroyed more of this planet then many dictators wish they could. Why don't you look at some more contemporary economic specialists not on the same payroll as yourself!
      Has bins? Really? So we should not read Dante? Or Herodotus? Or livy? Or plutarch? Because each of these writers is also a has bin, if we follow your theory that is.
      I would rather read real economists that have stood against the test of time and have proven themselves, then some conspiracy theorist that can not even defend his theory in a scientific journal. But I will humor you, who are those 'real' economists

      You kidding me? Alex Jones? Really? Well that explains a lot!

      Don't forget I am still waiting for a list of all those American Oligarchs you were talking about.
      You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience!!!!!!!

      "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Voltaire

    10. #70
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      Re: Who owns what in Armenia

      What bluff are you talking about? And how can you discuss economics without Adam Smith, Ricardo etc.? These are the basics of economy. Those should be the basics you learn when you are learning about the economy. You cannot understand how the economy works without them
      Could you please explain to us little people Garo " The Great " what a blockade does to Armenia? Yes or No?

      So should we use the dot com bubble, the crisis in 92 to justify the 50 million 'starving' people?
      How about just the blockade of Armenia instead? Hmmm Marx wants you to answer this question!

      What bluff?
      It must be the shampoo you used last night, please look in the mirror you will see plenty!

      How can you dismiss Marx if you do not read his theories? How can you dismiss something without studying it?
      How could you be so bold and still use Shampoo? I mean who told you I did not read Marx? Did Abigail Monsen tell you this? If you are going to be bold don't need to use Shampoo, this way your bluff would not be called so easily my dear.

      What does me becoming a mod have to do with anything?
      Very tactical move, I'm giving you credit, just letting you know that you are not going to blind side me! Don't worry keep shampooing your bold head, it makes you spend money and you know how much Keynes would love you for it. To me it's useless, if you are going to be bold you are simply wasting you money on Shampoo...ROTF

      What issues am I brushing aside? Or is not agreeing with you and blaming everything that goes wrong in the world on the West called brushing aside issues.
      You mean to tell me that Garo " The Great " still can't talk about the blockade or Armenia? How many more chances do you want to try and at least get some credibility yet a big fail. Time spent defending the West instead of Armenia. I thought a guy with such a big name as Garo " The Great " would at least have some humility. I'm Vahram the humble nice to meet you Garo " The Great" bet you can't say the G word yourself, after all having such a hard time quantifying on the merits of a blockade!

      many of its industries today that are controlled by strongmen connected to the governemnt
      Are you speaking of Goldman Sachs or Marx? I forgot who are you referring too, the biggest Oligarch on the planet is in the USA!...LOL So does this mean that the USA is under a blockade by China and this is your excuse for a failing system? Because Goldman I mean Marx wants to know...LOL

      Don't forget I am still waiting for a list of all those American Oligarchs you were talking about.
      Wait did I not answer this question already? Wait I mean what was to be said of this guy this big bad guy called Garo " The Great " who had nothing of merit to speak of Armenia's situation and spend all his time defending the West! Sorry Charlie, I mean Karo " The Great "



      Show me those American Oligarchs
      LOL, OH my God just one? ...ROTFLMAO
      Last edited by Vahram; 02-06-2013 at 02:55 PM.

    11. #71
      Lenakantsi Karo KarotheGreat's Avatar
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      Re: Who owns what in Armenia

      Quote Originally Posted by Vahram View Post
      Could you please explain to us little people Garo " The Great " what a blockade does to Armenia? Yes or No?
      Maybe instead of the personal references you can attack the points I am making?



      How about just the blockade of Armenia instead? Hmmm Marx wants you to answer this question!
      So it is the blockade that is forcing Dodi gago to steal 25% of the company from European investors? It must be the blockade because what else can it be?



      It must be the shampoo you used last night, please look in the mirror you will see plenty!
      When are you going to make some sense?



      How could you be so bold and still use Shampoo? I mean who told you I did not read Marx? Did Abigail Monsen tell you this? If you are going to be bold don't need to use Shampoo, this way your bluff would not be called so easily my dear.
      Then why do you object that I tell other people to read Marx? Is it because you do not like his theories? Or what?


      Very tactical move, I'm giving you credit, just letting you know that you are not going to blind side me! Don't worry keep shampooing your bold head, it makes you spend money and you know how much Keynes would love you for it. To me it's useless, if you are going to be bold you are simply wasting you money on Shampoo...ROTF
      Was that meant as an insult or something? Because again you are not making any sense.



      You mean to tell me that Garo " The Great " still can't talk about the blockade or Armenia? How many more chances do you want to try and at least get some credibility yet a big fail. Time spent defending the West instead of Armenia. I thought a guy with such a big name as Garo " The Great " would at least have some humility. I'm Vahram the humble nice to meet you Garo " The Great" bet you can't say the G word yourself, after all having such a hard time quantifying on the merits of a blockade!
      Again are you trying to insult me or something? Because the only thing you have been doing is trying to make this personal for some reason instead of going after my ideas and try to attack them.



      Are you speaking of Goldman Sachs or Marx? I forgot who are you referring too, the biggest Oligarch on the planet is in the USA!...LOL So does this mean that the USA is under a blockade by China and this is your excuse for a failing system? Because Goldman I mean Marx wants to know...LOL
      so who is this Oligarch? Who is this person? Give me the name and what he owns and how he is connected to the government? Is he a congressmen? Or is he a senator? Maybe a governor? You are just making wild claims without sourcing your claims.


      Wait did I not answer this question already? Wait I mean what was to be said of this guy this big bad guy called Garo " The Great " who had nothing of merit to speak of Armenia's situation and spend all his time defending the West! Sorry Charlie, I mean Karo " The Great "
      Again try to make some sense. Because this is very childish.





      LOL, OH my God just one? ...ROTFLMAO
      So the banks, that are publicly traded and everyone can buy a piece off is now the oligarch? You kidding me? Is that the best you can come up with?
      You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience!!!!!!!

      "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Voltaire

    12. #72
      Lenakantsi Karo KarotheGreat's Avatar
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      Re: Who owns what in Armenia

      I have cleaned up this thread and deleted some posts. Stay on topic, keep things civil and most importantly do not react to this post.
      Last edited by KarotheGreat; 02-06-2013 at 03:51 PM.
      You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience!!!!!!!

      "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Voltaire

    13. #73
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      Re: Who owns what in Armenia

      Give me the name and what he owns and how he is connected to the government?
      LOL, you don't know who this guy is? Corzine stole the money, still walking the street a free man. What justice is this? Welcome to American Oligarchy

      Last edited by Vahram; 02-08-2013 at 04:06 PM.

    14. #74
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      Re: Who owns what in Armenia

      Quote Originally Posted by KarotheGreat View Post
      I have cleaned up this thread and deleted some posts. Stay on topic, keep things civil and most importantly do not react to this post.
      Could you please do something about Vahram's continuous and quite deliberate posting of off-topic materal throughout hyeclub. It amounts to vandalism.

      His above post is a duplicate of an off-topic thread he started here: http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread....l=1#post339805 - and again, although it has nothing at all to do with Armenian politics, he posts it in the section of the forum dealing with Armenian politics.

      If he really wants to have a discussion about America, and fill it with Youtube clips, he should start a thread on that subject in the "general talk" section.
      Last edited by bell-the-cat; 02-09-2013 at 10:21 AM.
      Plenipotentiary meow!

    15. #75
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      Re: Who owns what in Armenia

      I think it is important to discuss all the issues related to Armenia, by pointing out that the same type of things happen in American. Please seem to have lost touch of these facts, and some Westerners don't want you to see the truth.

      Coming from someone who posted this.

      An Armenian forum is not a true Armenian forum without these topics occurring both regularly and prominently.

      Hitler and what he said (or didn't say) about the Armenian Genocide
      Are Armenians white / European?
      Were the Mamikonians Chinese?
      Why do Armenian women like black men?
      Hair (in the wrong places) and noses (in the right place but too big).

      Similarly, the long and noble tradition of issuing accusations of "denigrating the Armenian Nation" and of "being a Turk" should never be abandoned.
      Must you always make me make you eat your own words? Aside from the fact of you trolling, derailing threads you are not one to talk so much. Do you have anything to add or are you just spaming again?...LOL

      This is not the place for your post either...LOL

      Keep eathing bell keep eating.

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