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    Thread: Politics in Hayastan

    1. #601
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      Re: Politics in Hayastan

      Quote Originally Posted by Haykakan View Post
      My problem is not with Democracy but with the notion that Democracy is inherently a good thing and the best option. Democracy is just another form of government and it has its strengths and weaknesses when compared to the other forms. The long history of corruption and wars sets this form apart from the others. There is plenty of evidence that democracy can work and plenty of evidence that it fails miserably. My point is advocating democracy as the best option or as a cure for a country's ills is misguided and usually wrong as the problems facing a country usually have nothing to do with the form of government. Time and context need to be considered when analyzing democracy in today's environment. USA today is using democracy to take over other countries. It is taking advantage of how easy it is to corrupt people and to sway people in the modern era(due to technology and mass media). Democracy provides the ideal platform as the will of the brainwashed will prevail. I would have no problem with any of the forms of government for Armenia so long as the government's motive was improving the lives of the people in that country and strengthening it. I do not rule out the possibility of a successful democracy in Armenia but I am wary of these color revolutions and their track record of democracy being used to destroy countries. I think most people (including you) see democracy as the only good alternative but that is not the case. The form of government is not that important. The motives of those doing the governing are very important!
      Agree 100%.
      So comes my observation that today's rulers in Armenia are a club of shady characters who just continue practices of fake elections or armwressle or even in last election the practice of self survivalist beurocratism. Just like in soviet times.
      You can say the same is true for west, yes, but given our geopolitical situation and conditions, Armenia cannot afford this.
      I thought we had a national "tad", a vision that prompted historic sacrifices and events from Tehlieryan to Yanikian, from Asala to Lisbon, from Mkhitar sbarabed to all the 17th, 18, 19Th 20th centuries struggles to 1988 to Artsakh independence.
      All those sacrifices. West, or most of other nations don't have to end up like this kind of corruption.
      All this history and you got lfic samo, nemets, lady hagop, dody Gago, or many other nicknamed characters that behave by soviet era "law of thiefs" owning your country and stealing $6bln+ and ongoing,from your people.
      We did not come this much so public in Armenia would behave like it is still Brezhnev era.
      I don't care, democracy or anything else, but this circle has to break.
      This nation has to realize that dying for independence is done, over.
      Now is time to fight for what Armenia must be like.

    2. #602
      Registered User Haykakan's Avatar
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      Re: Politics in Hayastan

      Quote Originally Posted by Hakob View Post
      Agree 100%.
      So comes my observation that today's rulers in Armenia are a club of shady characters who just continue practices of fake elections or armwressle or even in last election the practice of self survivalist beurocratism. Just like in soviet times.
      You can say the same is true for west, yes, but given our geopolitical situation and conditions, Armenia cannot afford this.
      I thought we had a national "tad", a vision that prompted historic sacrifices and events from Tehlieryan to Yanikian, from Asala to Lisbon, from Mkhitar sbarabed to all the 17th, 18, 19Th 20th centuries struggles to 1988 to Artsakh independence.
      All those sacrifices. West, or most of other nations don't have to end up like this kind of corruption.
      All this history and you got lfic samo, nemets, lady hagop, dody Gago, or many other nicknamed characters that behave by soviet era "law of thiefs" owning your country and stealing $6bln+ and ongoing,from your people.
      We did not come this much so public in Armenia would behave like it is still Brezhnev era.
      I don't care, democracy or anything else, but this circle has to break.
      This nation has to realize that dying for independence is done, over.
      Now is time to fight for what Armenia must be like.
      Your use of the soviet legacy as a scapegoat is misguided and way too convenient of an excuse. While you mentioned the sacrifices some Armenians made , you fail to take into account all the bad things so many Armenians did to. You know those bad guys you mentioned are Armenians to. Greed is hardly a exclusive soviet legacy. You also fail to consider the many positive attributes of soviet legacy for Armenia and her people. Our history is full of our own backstabbers. You can use scapegoats all you want but running from reality never works out well.
      Hayastan or Bust.

    3. #603
      Registered User arakeretzig's Avatar
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      Re: Politics in Hayastan

      Ultimately, those "characters" who control everything reflect our society as a whole. we deserve our leaders. Thats why the recent 10 years of failed governance has made me think we are not ready to be independent country. Look at our neighbour to the north, injust a decade they managed to decimate corruption. Their police is respected again. Investment is flowing in. Do we have less brain cells than georgians? i highly doubt that. As long as these "characters" are linked to russia, corruption will continue,and no body will want to invest in armenia.

    4. #604
      Registered User Haykakan's Avatar
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      Re: Politics in Hayastan

      Quote Originally Posted by arakeretzig View Post
      Ultimately, those "characters" who control everything reflect our society as a whole. we deserve our leaders. Thats why the recent 10 years of failed governance has made me think we are not ready to be independent country. Look at our neighbour to the north, injust a decade they managed to decimate corruption. Their police is respected again. Investment is flowing in. Do we have less brain cells than georgians? i highly doubt that. As long as these "characters" are linked to russia, corruption will continue,and no body will want to invest in armenia.
      You forget they also lost lands and are now under Turkish/azeri influence. In contrast Armenia still retains Kharabagh and is getting more foreign investments pouring in as well. I do not think you are seeing a clear image of the situation. Armenia has been and continues to make progress in respect to corruption. Armenia has managed to see progress without going to war and without losing territories, how is this worst then Georgia?
      Hayastan or Bust.

    5. #605
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      Re: Politics in Hayastan

      Quote Originally Posted by arakeretzig View Post
      Ultimately, those "characters" who control everything reflect our society as a whole. we deserve our leaders. Thats why the recent 10 years of failed governance has made me think we are not ready to be independent country. Look at our neighbour to the north, injust a decade they managed to decimate corruption. Their police is respected again. Investment is flowing in. Do we have less brain cells than georgians? i highly doubt that. As long as these "characters" are linked to russia, corruption will continue,and no body will want to invest in armenia.
      I think a large part of it has to do with the Georgians having no diaspora to escape to, and being forced to stay in Georgia and fight, must like the Ukrainians did.

      Armenians had large diasporas around the world they could run to for economic opportunities. The USA, Canada, Latin America, and even Russia were all established areas Armenians could run to. The Georgians didn't have that luxury. When you look at our two peoples, you can tell that the Armenians are by far fairing as an ethnic group better than the Georgians or the Azeris, but that is because we are afforded more opportunity in bigger lands.

      But the Georgians, to get access to the US and the EU, they have no diaspora backing them. They need to do it on their own. They don't have Russia to run to since relations are so bad.

      My point is, a lot of Armenians who could have and should have stood up to these scumbags in Armenia are all gone or planning on leaving. There is an avenue to improve themselves that has nothing to do with politics, which is emigrating to another country. That leaves the countries tugs unopposed to pillage the country.

    6. #606
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      Re: Politics in Hayastan

      Quote Originally Posted by Haykakan View Post
      Your use of the soviet legacy as a scapegoat is misguided and way too convenient of an excuse. While you mentioned the sacrifices some Armenians made , you fail to take into account all the bad things so many Armenians did to. You know those bad guys you mentioned are Armenians to. Greed is hardly a exclusive soviet legacy. You also fail to consider the many positive attributes of soviet legacy for Armenia and her people. Our history is full of our own backstabbers. You can use scapegoats all you want but running from reality never works out well.
      Where have you seen an election in west when people know they must go to polls and vote for whomever they are told for, otherwise they will be in trouble?
      Countries like former Soviet Union or current North Korea.
      What is misguided here?
      I have spoken to several people from Malatia Sebastia district of Yerevan (lfic Samo's district) and most told me that several days lfic's men went door to door with lists of residents telling they must go to vote and whomever they vote for.
      They also had lists of residents previousely voted for opposition, knocking their doors and threatening.
      Situation was neighbour telling neighbour "axper, don't be stupid elections will be over but you will still be here, don't put yourself in trouble".
      I remember in early seventies where in usual fake elections there all the residents names were posted on our school walls and everybody went and voted for the names of communist representatives also posted there.
      What is misguided in my assessment of communist legacy here?
      This legacy is still alive well enough and influences enough to keep power to in hands that does not represent people.
      I have lived in USA for 37 years and no one in those years has knocked my door telling me who to vote for.
      No one has told me they got my name on any list and gave a choice to either take money for appreciation or watch out because there will be consequences of my voting.

      Man diasporans are so cut off from what's going on in Armenia it's not even funny.

    7. #607
      Registered User Azad's Avatar
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      Re: Politics in Hayastan

      Quote Originally Posted by Hakob View Post
      Where have you seen an election in west when people know they must go to polls and vote for whomever they are told for, otherwise they will be in trouble?
      I have lived in USA for 37 years and no one in those years has knocked my door telling me who to vote for.
      On that same note, what are the chances in a population of 310 million we are offered candidates from the same family as in Bush senior, Bush junior, Jeb Bush. Or a husband and wife candidates from 310 million as in Cigar Clinton and thief Clinton. Not to mention the Kennedy gang. No place is perfect! We all know of Armenia's corruption and not being perfect. We got it by now!

    8. #608
      Registered User Haykakan's Avatar
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      Re: Politics in Hayastan

      Hakob there is no need to do all the things you mentioned when you know that it does not matter at all who wins the election as all candidates must do what the shadow government wants them to do. In that sense the situation you described in Armenia is actually better because there the establishment feels threatened enough to actually do something about keeping power, this implies that there is actually some real competition. In USA there is only the illusion of competition and even then you only have two choices. I have really enjoyed some of the arguments and discussions that take place in the Armenian media because they were talking freely about everything in a very blunt manner. You will not find this in American mas media. The examples you gave point directly to what I have been saying regarding the sophistication of those doing the corrupting in USA vs in Armenia. The people who own USA are able to give you the illusion of legitimacy and freedom while being far more corrupt then anything the Armenian oligarchs could dream of. This system of mass deception is so effective that it works on most people. I am in no way trying to justify the bad things the oligarchs do but I am trying to put them in perspective.
      Hayastan or Bust.

    9. #609
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      Re: Politics in Hayastan

      Quote Originally Posted by Haykakan View Post
      Hakob there is no need to do all the things you mentioned when you know that it does not matter at all who wins the election as all candidates must do what the shadow government wants them to do. In that sense the situation you described in Armenia is actually better because there the establishment feels threatened enough to actually do something about keeping power, this implies that there is actually some real competition. In USA there is only the illusion of competition and even then you only have two choices. I have really enjoyed some of the arguments and discussions that take place in the Armenian media because they were talking freely about everything in a very blunt manner. You will not find this in American mas media. The examples you gave point directly to what I have been saying regarding the sophistication of those doing the corrupting in USA vs in Armenia. The people who own USA are able to give you the illusion of legitimacy and freedom while being far more corrupt then anything the Armenian oligarchs could dream of. This system of mass deception is so effective that it works on most people. I am in no way trying to justify the bad things the oligarchs do but I am trying to put them in perspective.

      Haykakan, with all due respect nothing you say above has anything to do with Armenia.

    10. #610
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      Re: Politics in Hayastan

      Ok. Let me make a very metaphoric, colorful and a bit ugly comparison here.
      I hope you guys will excuse me for being cynical.

      We have a baby that has bad intestinal worms eating baby's life out.
      Then we have bunch of us going around baby with all kinds of ideas without really talking about how to fix baby's problems. We can't even agree if those worms are eventually life threatening or how big of a priority to get rid of.
      Some say, let the worms stay there, at least we got the baby there physically as an entity. Besides those worms do not disfigure him and they will be full soon and probably will eat the baby less or slower.
      Here come some that say baby needs to grow up and fight the neighbour, so forget the worms and let Russia teach the kid karate. Others answer that because of Russia they can't do anything about worms, so either kick Russia away or forget about getting rid of the worms.
      Here come some and say "there is this woman called "western democracy". She has huge breasts and her milk is delicious and kills or weakens intestinal worms. Right away people jump in and sweare that she is a wh o r e and works in brothel. So stay away from her.
      Then there are some that say that a guy named "George Soros" has a receipt that a lot of pumpkin seeds mushed with honey and some cyanid will kill the worms. As a matter of fact he will supply all the ingredients.
      Meanwhile people that call themselfs "opposition" are circling around baby's head and pushing and shoving each other.
      Some say "if you pull baby's ears hard enough, the worms ought to drop out". Others want to sew baby's throt so "no food, no worms".
      Many have their eyes on exact same spot that the worms have attached themselfs. But all agree about avoiding to enter thru the anus to fight the worms because it's hard to do and it smells bad.
      Meanwhile the baby is getting weaker and weaker. It allready has lost the ability to walk alone. It has lost lot of brain function and could become a returd invalid or even die.
      Nobody is reflecting that what baby needs is for helpers to unite and enter from wherever (anus or nose) and pull those worms out one by one. No wh or e's big breasts, ear pulling or get rid of karate teacher. No arguments about feeding him a 7 course French dinner or Russian borscht.
      Just get dirty and pull those worms out. Let the body function normal and not loose so much nutrients and blood.
      The baby will figure out where to go and what to eat himself. Just help him get rid of parasites that are only strong because there has not been anybody serious enough so far to get rid of them.
      If there will be, those worms will disappear quickly. After all the worms are worms with no political spine or high functioning cerebral/moral structure.
      Last edited by Hakob; 04-23-2017 at 12:51 PM.

    11. #611
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      Re: Politics in Hayastan

      Instead of focusing on the two problems (politics and corruption) focus on all the nice things the country offers.
      Focus on work and making a living in a country where you do not have large corporations that will make it impossible to start a business.
      Focus on enjoying the terrific nature, low taxes, safe environment for families, dirt cheap real estate, dirt cheap living.
      Forget the damaged baby. There are lots of other cute healthy babies (metaphorically)

    12. #612
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      Re: Politics in Hayastan

      Quote Originally Posted by Azad View Post
      Instead of focusing on the two problems (politics and corruption) focus on all the nice things the country offers.
      Focus on work and making a living in a country where you do not have large corporations that will make it impossible to start a business.
      Focus on enjoying the terrific nature, low taxes, safe environment for families, dirt cheap real estate, dirt cheap living.
      Forget the damaged baby. There are lots of other cute healthy babies (metaphorically)
      Aha....

    13. #613
      Registered User Azad's Avatar
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      Re: Politics in Hayastan

      Quote Originally Posted by Hakob View Post
      Aha....
      You should cut down on your newspaper long writings. Please condense them in couple lines. No disrespect Baron Hakob.
      "Aha...." was perfect!

    14. #614
      Registered User Haykakan's Avatar
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      Re: Politics in Hayastan

      Yeh Hakob, the worms should be gotten rid of and the baby should be raised the best way possible. I have repeatedly said I do not like the way Armenia is governed. The problem I have is that most people think if you get rid of these guys only good things can happen. We have countless examples of the exact opposite all around us yet this illusion still persists. To be honest I think the changes that have been taking place recently are rather promising. Some of these changes do involve getting rid of some of those worms. Lets see what these changes usher inn before getting too down about anything. Things like tying policy to nation building is what I have been advocating here for years and it seems like Armenia's government is finally getting the message with these latest changes. Yeh it is bs we had to wait this long, yeh we still do not know how things will turn out. As time passes it seems more to me that the April war was designed to give Azeris something positive to munch on while we walk away with the big prize. I would have no problem if changes like this progress and continue. I would prefer a government of nationbuilders to begin with but life does not work that way. The point is the closer we get to making a country that we would like to raise our babies in, the closer we get to sustainable nation. We have people in this very forum who moved to Hayastan from the diaspora and have no regrets and it seems more positive changes are coming. People like vrej1915 are here for only one thing, to spread pessimism and negativity in the hope of ushering in a revolution which will benefit only those that they work for and not the Armenian people. How else would you justify thousends of posts in very short period of time with ALL OF THEM BEING NEGATIVE!!!! According to this character not a single positive thing has ever happened in Armenia. The aim/npatak of these people could not be any clearer yet they manage to dupe people right and left regardless. Unless we have a foolproof plan to do way better without doing a bunch of harm, we should stay the coarse and keep making meaningful incremental improvements. A slow but steady pace of improvements over a period of time really adds up and is far safer than a revolution scenario.
      Hayastan or Bust.

    15. #615
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      Re: Politics in Hayastan

      People is the key to any govrrnment.

      Without the people government cannot survive.........without people speaking up governments have no insentive to uphold the constitution or make changes for a young republic.
      B0zkurt Hunter

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