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    Thread: Agriculture

    1. #1
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      Agriculture

      Agriculture is the backbone of any economy, at least any self reliant one.
      It represents the primary sector, on wich the secondary (transformation, industry) and tertiary (services) are based.
      For a country like ours, it is much more.
      It is a vital, self-reliance, survival matter.
      As in any other aspects of our life, the possibility of a full blockade, and total war is a constant and ever-lasting factor.
      Nevertheless, apart from basic and low productivity sectors, such as cereals, where we can in no way compete witch huge entities like Russia, Ukraine, etc..., we need to use some parts on income generating, export sectors.
      Having few arable lands, and much fewer irrigated ones, we must try to get the best productivity from every irrigated acre.
      At least, in theory.
      Last edited by Vrej1915; 01-26-2013 at 10:16 AM.

    2. #2
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      Re: Agriculture

      Եթե գազը թանկանա, հայ ֆերմերներն իրենց ջերմոցները ստիպված կտեղափոխվեն Վրաստան
      Նարեկ Ալեքսանյան

      14:54, 26 հունվարի, 2013
      Երբ գազի գինը մեկ խորանարդ մետրի համար 35 դրամ էր, Արարատյան դաշտավայրում տնամերձ ջերմոցներ կառուցող գյուղացիները վարկ վերցրին այն հույսով, որ իրենց սպասելիք եկամուտների հաշվին կկարողանան մարել վարկը և շարունակել զբաղվել ջերմոցային տնտեսությամբ: Ջերմոցային տնտեսությունը վերջին շրջանում միտում ուներ դառնալու գյուղատնտեսության արդյունավետ զարգացող ճյուղ Հայաստանում:

      Այժմ բացի նրանից, որ բարձրացել է գազի գինը, ընկել է գյուղմթերքի գինը: Ջերմոցային տնտեսությամբ զբաղվել սկսած ֆերմերները, չկարողանալով մարել բանկից վերցրած վարկը, ստիպված են եղել ավելի խոշոր տոկոսադրույքներով երկրորդ վարկը վերցնել՝ նախկինը մարելու նպատակով, սակայն դրա հետևանքով հայտնվել են սնանկացման եզրին:

      Ջերմոցային տնտեսության տնօրեն, ֆերմեր Գագիկ Բաբախանյանի համոզմամբ՝ ստեղծված իրավիճակում այլ ելք չի մնում, քան ապամոնտաժել ջերմոցները և տնտեսությունը տեղափոխել Վրաստան, օրինակ՝ Աջարիա, որտեղ գազի գինը նորմալ է, կլիման էլ առավել նպաստավոր:

      Ջերմոցային տնտեսությամբ զբաղվողների համար մտահոգության առարկա է նաև այն, որ պետությունը ոչ մի կերպ չի խրախուսում տեղական արտադրողին, իսկ մինչ այդ Թուրքիայից Հայաստան է ներմուծվում անորոշ ծագման պինդ, անհամ և առողջության համար վտանգավոր լոլիկ, որը մրցակցությունից դուրս է մղում Արարատյան դաշտավայրում աճեցված մաքուր ծագման, կալորիականությամբ հարուստ լոլիկին:

      Այսպիսի իրավիճակ եղել է դեռևս խորհրդային տարիներին, երբ Հայաստանի տարածքից ծաղկային ջերմոցները տեղափոխվեցին Ադրբեջանի կազմի մեջ մտնող Նախիջևան, և Ադրբեջանը դարձավ միակ խոշոր ծաղիկ արտահանող երկիրը տարածաշրջանում:

      Ֆերմերը իրավիճակից դուրս գալու միջոց է դիտարկում գազի համար սահմանված ավելացված արժեքի հարկն իրենց տնտեսություններից չհարկելը, ինչն արվում է, օրինակ, Հոլանդիայում, որպեսզի գյուղատնտեսության այս ճյուղը վերջնականապես չկործանվի Հայաստանում:

    3. #3
      Registered User Haykakan's Avatar
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      Re: Agriculture

      The key here is in comparative advantage and specialization. Armenia needs to enhance whatever comparative advantages she in order for her to be competative in global markets. It is better to import things you have a comparative disadvantage in and to export things you have a comparative advantage in. Free trade is based on specialization and comparative advantage. One of Armenia's problems is cheap and efficient access to world markets and the turkish blockade makes this a bigger problem. Normally self reliance is not a efficient econmomic strategy but then again there is nothing normal about this part of the world.

      Quote Originally Posted by Vrej1915 View Post
      Agriculture is the backbone of any economy, at least any self reliant one.
      It represents the primary sector, on wich the secondary (transformation, industry) and tertiary (services) are based.
      For a country like ours, it is much more.
      It is a vital, self-reliance, survival matter.
      As in any other aspects of our life, the possibility of a full blockade, and total war is a constant and ever-lasting factor.
      Nevertheless, apart from basic and low productivity sectors, such as cereals, where we can in no way compete witch huge entities like Russia, Ukraine, etc..., we need to use some parts on income generating, export sectors.
      Having few arable lands, and much fewer irrigated ones, we must try to get the best productivity from every irrigated acre.
      At least, in theory.
      Hayastan or Bust.

    4. #4
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      Re: Agriculture

      Quote Originally Posted by Haykakan View Post
      The key here is in comparative advantage and specialization. Armenia needs to enhance whatever comparative advantages she in order for her to be competative in global markets. It is better to import things you have a comparative disadvantage in and to export things you have a comparative advantage in. Free trade is based on specialization and comparative advantage. One of Armenia's problems is cheap and efficient access to world markets and the turkish blockade makes this a bigger problem. Normally self reliance is not a efficient econmomic strategy but then again there is nothing normal about this part of the world.
      Exact.
      Reason why we need to 'accomodate' global economic rules, even if it hurts some monopolist importers of ours (much more than WTO rules quoted as pretexts).
      Importing tomatoes, apricot, peaches, most nuts, or grapes in Armenia must be forbidden, specially from Torkey, no matter protectionist that must sound.

    5. #5
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      Re: Agriculture

      Quote Originally Posted by Vrej1915 View Post
      Exact.
      Reason why we need to 'accomodate' global economic rules, even if it hurts some monopolist importers of ours (much more than WTO rules quoted as pretexts).
      Importing tomatoes, apricot, peaches, most nuts, or grapes in Armenia must be forbidden, specially from Torkey, no matter protectionist that must sound.
      I certainly don't care about "monopolist importers", and definitely agree on Not importing tomatoes, apricots , nuts etc , and imfatically agree with not importing from turkurd as$holes.
      My opinion , is no matter how difficult -- we should not export to to butcher squatters to the west.
      Am wondering what the better and more informed minds think of NO exporting to enemy ?
      Also , I understand "accommodate" global economic rules , but DO NOT trust global etc farce act.
      ???
      Artashes
      HARK

    6. #6
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      Re: Agriculture

      Quote Originally Posted by Artashes View Post
      I certainly don't care about "monopolist importers", and definitely agree on Not importing tomatoes, apricots , nuts etc , and imfatically agree with not importing from turkurd as$holes.
      My opinion , is no matter how difficult -- we should not export to to butcher squatters to the west.
      Am wondering what the better and more informed minds think of NO exporting to enemy ?
      Also , I understand "accommodate" global economic rules , but DO NOT trust global etc farce act.
      ???
      Artashes
      You mean, you would refuse to export to the EU, if you had a chance?

    7. #7
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      Re: Agriculture

      Quote Originally Posted by Vrej1915 View Post
      You mean, you would refuse to export to the EU, if you had a chance?
      No, I didn't mean that.
      I mean global economics is is being used by " big hitters " to advance their agenda and great caution needs be exercised .
      My primary question is the exporting to the turkurds.
      I can understand economic benefits but think the morally it's wrong. Also it somehow gives legitimacy to them from us, it seems to me. I know the economics of not dealing with them is difficult for us and a tough move .
      My question is to the better minds and more informed minds about no exporting to as$holes , so that I might gain understanding.
      Artashes
      HARK

    8. #8
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      Re: Agriculture

      Quote Originally Posted by Artashes View Post
      No, I didn't mean that.
      I mean global economics is is being used by " big hitters " to advance their agenda and great caution needs be exercised .
      My primary question is the exporting to the turkurds.
      I can understand economic benefits but think the morally it's wrong. Also it somehow gives legitimacy to them from us, it seems to me. I know the economics of not dealing with them is difficult for us and a tough move .
      My question is to the better minds and more informed minds about no exporting to as$holes , so that I might gain understanding.
      Artashes
      From an agricultural point of view, we have nothing competitive enough to sell them first place.
      They have most of our country, that is they produce all of the fruits we do, much, much more, on an extensive mode, with modern equipment, and EU + WB + US help....
      So the question is not even on the table.

    9. #9
      Registered User Haykakan's Avatar
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      Re: Agriculture

      There is always some comparative advantage. The advantage is in relative opportunity cost. Even if the other side is better at doing everything that still means we have lower opportunity costs thus a comparative advantage. Trading with the turk can help both us and them but more so us then them. If such trade should or should not happen is more of a moral issue on our side and it is one the armenian government is ok with. Trade can begin in phases to make sure security and abusive situations do not arise. Besides trade with the turk we will gain more direct routes to europe if borders open. Armenia has much to gain here but trading with your butcher sounds bad no matter how you say it.
      Quote Originally Posted by Vrej1915 View Post
      From an agricultural point of view, we have nothing competitive enough to sell them first place.
      They have most of our country, that is they produce all of the fruits we do, much, much more, on an extensive mode, with modern equipment, and EU + WB + US help....
      So the question is not even on the table.
      Hayastan or Bust.

    10. #10
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      Re: Agriculture

      Quote Originally Posted by Haykakan View Post
      There is always some comparative advantage. The advantage is in relative opportunity cost. Even if the other side is better at doing everything that still means we have lower opportunity costs thus a comparative advantage. Trading with the turk can help both us and them but more so us then them. If such trade should or should not happen is more of a moral issue on our side and it is one the armenian government is ok with. Trade can begin in phases to make sure security and abusive situations do not arise. Besides trade with the turk we will gain more direct routes to europe if borders open. Armenia has much to gain here but trading with your butcher sounds bad no matter how you say it.
      Unfortunately not true on a real life, even if it sounds good in theory.
      Compare any price, of any agricultural output in Turkey, and in Armenia.
      They will be cheaper, and will sell more cheap than cheaper, as a dumping policy to kill our economy (and as today, there will always be 'oligarks's happy to make money by thinking they are the wise guys)....
      We would have quality for us, but yet again, they are not the market with such solvancy, to pay twice more for our apricot (even if much more tasty); rather than theirs... It makes much more sense to sell our product in EU or Moskow, or the Gulf states, rather than in Van....
      In any open border trade situation, we would largely be the losers.
      The manpower is a such small difference here, that it does not matter.
      And do not forget, on the other side of the border, we do not have westernised Bolis or Smyrniya, but very neglected, poor, ignorant regions of Ocuppied Western Armenia, inhabited by mostly ill treated Kurds, living in a war situation....

      Access to Europe, and open trade with Turkey are different matters.
      We need end of the blockade, and more so, end of monopolies/state level corruption (something independant of the blockade, no matter how hard Sejik, Levon, Robert, or others would like us to beleive) we do not need trade with Turkey.
      One does not necesserily imply the other....

    11. #11
      Registered User Haykakan's Avatar
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      Re: Agriculture

      You would be surprised how much trade with the turk would benefit us economicaly. Like i said if things get abusive by either side you can always shut the border again. Economicaly there is great potential here but the economy is not the only thing that needs to be considered here.
      Hayastan or Bust.

    12. #12
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      Re: Agriculture

      Quote Originally Posted by Haykakan View Post
      You would be surprised how much trade with the turk would benefit us economicaly. Like i said if things get abusive by either side you can always shut the border again. Economicaly there is great potential here but the economy is not the only thing that needs to be considered here.
      I already see it in everyday life

      Can you please specify what would we export more than we do now, apart electricity, profits going into russian company's pockets?
      Specific examples, not generalities... maybe you know something I do not?

    13. #13
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      Re: Agriculture

      You just made a important point. The trade exists even with the borders closed. If you open the border trade will be even easier both ways. Just as if not more importantly the open border gets us access to turkish ports and cheaper routes to Europe. Trade can lead to a great deal of other things to socially, politically , etc.. I do not have any magic answers but mutual trade wo agendas can be great for both sides. As i mentioned before it is a different matter if this is ethical or not-but ethics or no ethics as you already pointed it out-its happening anyways.
      Hayastan or Bust.

    14. #14
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      Re: Agriculture

      Quote Originally Posted by Haykakan View Post
      You just made a important point. The trade exists even with the borders closed. If you open the border trade will be even easier both ways. Just as if not more importantly the open border gets us access to turkish ports and cheaper routes to Europe. Trade can lead to a great deal of other things to socially, politically , etc.. I do not have any magic answers but mutual trade wo agendas can be great for both sides. As i mentioned before it is a different matter if this is ethical or not-but ethics or no ethics as you already pointed it out-its happening anyways.
      Of course the trade exists!
      Who said no?
      And it exists 99% at our expense.
      We only import, hardly because of the blockade, but the trade is one sided, and we export practically nothing but cheap slaves who may tend to turn to prostitutes, for some....

      Now, in your opinion, if the border is open with no restraint, what will happen?
      That will make turkish products even cheaper, our's less competitive from the low point they are...
      Have no idea?
      Go and see what Georgia's economy is like....

      Before opening the turkish border, first put order in your home...
      Put an end to monopoly (if not the little economy generated by less transport fees will end in the pockets of Malatiayi Samo, etc....)
      People expressing 'La palice' truths, about the theoretical goods of opening border with Turkey have no idea about realities....

      This is not the EU!
      It is not Germany/France relations... if compared, it must look more like something of Nazi Germani/Warsaw Ghetto like relationship... when it comes to economics.
      As long as the "Nazis" are in power, no chance any of any "honest" trade...
      And till now, "Nazis" are still in Power in Ankara... and no sign of change at all.
      So what are we talking about?
      The Good of a couple of Oligarkhs? In my view they are already rich enough, even if they will always cry for more...

      Once again, ending the blockade is an other matter.
      It will never effectively happen, as long as Nazi/Ittihadists are in power, by their own will and acceptance;
      These are antinomic realities;
      Someone must force their hand. Without force, and an angry 'policeman', it will never happen.
      Thank's God, signs of hope do appear... the "sick man" of Europe will finally crumble, due to its essence. Just a matter of time.
      In the mean time, we need to ask for our lands, to our access, to our sea, to our Drabizon port, not as a favor, but as a lawful owner, asking retribution, and return of it's lands....
      Provided we do not sell our rights for the sake of a couple of mafioso/oligarkhs, sooner or later, our day will come.
      We waited for 100 years, we can afford waiting for an other 20...

      In the mean time, let's forget about free trade... it is hilarious!

      We must ask for our Lands, not acces to EU, however unreal it may sound today.... (look how they do ask for Yerevan!) and as a first step, free access to our sea, end of blockade, not open border with Nazi/itihadists...
      If not, you will have an "end of blockade", with no chance at all of free acces to any port...
      Look how the Georgians are looting our trade roots...

      In your opinion, what will force Turks to do better??

      --------
      It is by far much more real, that we will eventually get our lands back, one way or an other, rather than have "normal/honest" trade with Ittihadist/Nazis...
      It will NEVER HAPPEN, we know it, so why fool ourselves??
      We may perhaps trade with futur generation of "post-ittihadist" torks, may be... but not in our lifetime.
      Let's Forget about this nonsense...

      If something must be done, is stop import of Any Turkish Good that is Produced in Armenia, by rule of law (just as azaris do officially about our products, and torkey as a matter of fact unofficially....)

      _______

      So, returning to your point:
      What kind of export did you have in mind, when talking of benefits??
      Last edited by Vrej1915; 01-26-2013 at 07:46 PM.

    15. #15
      Registered User Haykakan's Avatar
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      Re: Agriculture

      I do not really have any problem with what you said here. Yes they are nazis and yes we have olis. Like i said earlier Armenia does not reside in a "normal" part of the worldwith "normal" neighbors. As for benefits its about comparative advantage which is easily confused with absolute advantage. Free trade is based on each party doing what they do best "specialization". Even if one party has a absolute advantage in everything as you say Turky does, the two sides can still benefit greatly from trading with each other by specializing in what they do best (even if our best is never as good as the turks-although i very much doubt this is always the case as you imply). Let me explain further..lets assume turky and armenia both make nothing but tomatose and peppers. Lets say that turks are better at making both tomatose and pepppers then armenians. Lets also assume the turk is better at making tomatose then making peppers. Lets say armenians is equally good at makig tomatoes and peppers but cannot make any of them better then the turk. Since the opportunity cost(what it has to give up) of the turk to make peppers is higher then armenias opportunnity cost (armenia does not give up as many tomatoes to make peppers as the turk does) It would make sense to have turky make all the tomatoes while armenia makes all the peppers. In this situation both sides will make and consume more tomatoes and peppers togather then they would without trading. Specialization and comparative advantage are the reasons why free trade works so well. You do not need to better then the other guy at anything in order to greatly benefit from free trade. You can chek this stuff out in any economic book. I actually did research on trade between turkey and armenia while working on my master degree and the results indeed showed both sides would benefit from trade with armenia benefiting considerably more then the turks. The question here is not an economic one (free trade would without question benefit both sides) but it is a political/ethical one.
      Hayastan or Bust.

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