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    Thread: Armenia's Energy sector

    1. #16
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      Re: Armenia's Energy sector

      Quote Originally Posted by Vrej1915 View Post

      Unfortunately, Russia's Putin seems to have blocked the deal....
      Why unfortunately? Was't it American Enron that robbed their own taxpayers of billions? Hasn't west destroyed Bulgaria's energy sector? Why do you talk as if American companies would be better than Russia's ? Let our government decide as what to do. One thing is abvious, for blockaded country, we are not doing bad for energy.

    2. #17
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      Re: Armenia's Energy sector

      Quote Originally Posted by Vrej1915 View Post

      Unfortunately, Russia's Putin seems to have blocked the deal....
      Quote Originally Posted by Artashes View Post
      If this is so, can you tell if Russia has gobbled it up or is it in RA's sole possession?
      Artashes
      Quote Originally Posted by Hakob View Post
      Why unfortunately? Was't it American Enron that robbed their own taxpayers of billions? Hasn't west destroyed Bulgaria's energy sector? Why do you talk as if American companies would be better than Russia's ? Let our government decide as what to do. One thing is abvious, for blockaded country, we are not doing bad for energy.
      This is my point exactly. I'm almost 65. In my lifetime I have saw california (if it was a country) go from the 3rd richest country in the world (just behind USA, Japan) to in debt up to its eyeballs. Billions were stolen from electric fiasco and never recovered + plus few went to prison if any.
      I've seen USA go from the richest even if all others economy was combined to a multi TRILLION $ debt.
      Many of the people are nice (if misguided) but the military industrial govt is death in the guise of a generous loan.
      HARK

    3. #18
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      Re: Armenia's Energy sector

      Quote Originally Posted by Hakob View Post
      Why unfortunately? Was't it American Enron that robbed their own taxpayers of billions? Hasn't west destroyed Bulgaria's energy sector? Why do you talk as if American companies would be better than Russia's ? Let our government decide as what to do. One thing is abvious, for blockaded country, we are not doing bad for energy.
      Why???
      For One: Because it is never good when 100% of you eggs are in the basket of ONE power.
      Specially if it is an ex Empire on the return...

    4. #19
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      Re: Armenia's Energy sector

      Yet not clear, but there is intense interest to get the asset from the russians, for years now...
      I will be surprised, if the regime can save it from russian control.

      PS: Do not forget, that Vorotan Cascade is directly linked to the Sevan level/salvage/destiny....

    5. #20
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      Re: Armenia's Energy sector

      Quote Originally Posted by Vrej1915 View Post
      Why???
      For One: Because it is never good when 100% of you eggs are in the basket of ONE power.
      Specially if it is an ex Empire on the return...

      Fair... Agree to it.

    6. #21
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      Re: Armenia's Energy sector

      I share your concern in these matters Vrej. Appreciate your intelligent response.
      Also, although I can't read our writing, I have absolutely no problem with you or any other member writing in Armenian. I enjoy seeing the script & when written with English letters, I enjoy the sound. My loss but no worries at all. Please do what is most comfortable for you.
      Artashes
      HARK

    7. #22
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      Re: Armenia's Energy sector

      Վարչապետը Որոտանի կասկադի մասին
      Lragir.am
      Ուրբաթ, 27 Դեկտեմբերի 2013,

      Տարեվերջյան մամուլի ասուլիսում վարչապետն անդրադարձել է նաեւ Որոտանի կասկադի վաճառքի խնդրին:
      «Կառավարությունը պետք է ներդրողներին կայուն երաշխիքներ տա, մանավանդ այնպիսի ոլորտներում, որոնց կարգավորումն իրականացվում է պետության կողմից: Ես ուզում եմ հստակ նշել, որ խոսքը միայն ռուսական ներդրումների մասին չէ, այլ ցանկացած արտասահմանյան ներդրման: Այս համատեքստում ես ուզում եմ առանձնացնել այն, որ մենք վերջերս պայմանագիր ենք կնքել մեր ամերիկացի գործընկերների հետ, ովքեր պատրաստակամություն են հայտնել ներդրումային ծրագրեր իրականացնել Որոտան ՀԷԿ-երի համալիրում: Ես կարծում եմ, որ սա ևս չափազանց կարևոր ներդրումային ծրագիր է մեր երկրի համար: Պետք է հստակ հասկանալ՝ սրանք մեր երկրի համար կենսական նշանակության ոլորտներ են՝ հատկապես էներգետիկայի բնագավառը»,- ասել է վարչապետը և ավելացրել, որ քաղաքական սպեկուլյացիաների հետևանքով այս պայմանագրի բուն էությունը մնաց չքննարկված:
      - See more at: http://www.lragir.am/index/arm/0/eco....LhsvR1Lr.dpuf

    8. #23
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      Re: Armenia's Energy sector

      A 100GW NPP IS NEEDED TO ENSURE THE ENERGY SECURITY OF THE SOUTH CAUCASUS, TURKEY AND IRAN

      by Arthur Yernjakyan

      ARMINFO
      Thursday, October 24, 17:58

      A 100GW NPP and a 10bln c m underground gas storage facility are needed
      to ensure the energy security of the South Caucasus, Turkey and Iran,
      Vice President of the Georgian Academy of Natural Sciences Alexander
      Tvalchrelidze told ArmInfo on Thursday.

      He said that the International Energy Agency and the U.S. Department
      of Energy forecast a steady growth in global energy consumption till
      2040. "In order to keep pace, Armenia and Georgia should increase
      their generating capacities by respective 0.6% and 1% annually,"
      Tvalchrelidze said.

      He said that the 1,060MW NPP Armenia is going to build will be enough
      for this country only but not for the whole region. "It should be
      a European-type NPP, like those in France, and should be built in
      Northern Turkey, Northern Iran or Armenia," Tvalchrelidze said.

      He also recommends building a large underground gas storage facility.

      "The Abovyan facility in Armenia can hold no more than 180mln c m.

      This will hardly do for more than 30 days, while the new facility
      should hold as much as 10bln c m - a quantity that will meet the
      whole region's needs for as long as 3-4 months," Tvalchrelidze said,
      adding that the new facility may be built in Georgia.

      "In order to synchronize our energy systems, we need no less than 500KV
      lines. The existing ones allow Armenia to synchronize its system with
      Iran and Georgia but not with Turkey and Azerbaijan - for political
      reasons. In its turn, Georgia's system is synchronized with Armenia
      and Azerbaijan but not with Russia, Iran and Turkey. There must not be
      politics in the energy sector. Israel and the Gaza Strip effectively
      cooperate in this field despite their political problems.

      The same is true for Turkey and Cyprus. So, we should come together
      and form a joint wholesale energy market involving not only the South
      Caucasus but also Turkey and Iran," Tvalchrelidze said.

    9. #24
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      Re: Armenia's Energy sector

      Quote Originally Posted by Vrej1915 View Post
      A 100GW NPP IS NEEDED TO ENSURE THE ENERGY SECURITY OF THE SOUTH CAUCASUS, TURKEY AND IRAN

      by Arthur Yernjakyan

      ARMINFO
      Thursday, October 24, 17:58

      A 100GW NPP and a 10bln c m underground gas storage facility are needed
      to ensure the energy security of the South Caucasus, Turkey and Iran,
      Vice President of the Georgian Academy of Natural Sciences Alexander
      Tvalchrelidze told ArmInfo on Thursday.

      He said that the International Energy Agency and the U.S. Department
      of Energy forecast a steady growth in global energy consumption till
      2040. "In order to keep pace, Armenia and Georgia should increase
      their generating capacities by respective 0.6% and 1% annually,"
      Tvalchrelidze said.

      He said that the 1,060MW NPP Armenia is going to build will be enough
      for this country only but not for the whole region. "It should be
      a European-type NPP, like those in France, and should be built in
      Northern Turkey, Northern Iran or Armenia," Tvalchrelidze said.

      He also recommends building a large underground gas storage facility.

      "The Abovyan facility in Armenia can hold no more than 180mln c m.

      This will hardly do for more than 30 days, while the new facility
      should hold as much as 10bln c m - a quantity that will meet the
      whole region's needs for as long as 3-4 months," Tvalchrelidze said,
      adding that the new facility may be built in Georgia.

      "In order to synchronize our energy systems, we need no less than 500KV
      lines. The existing ones allow Armenia to synchronize its system with
      Iran and Georgia but not with Turkey and Azerbaijan - for political
      reasons. In its turn, Georgia's system is synchronized with Armenia
      and Azerbaijan but not with Russia, Iran and Turkey. There must not be
      politics in the energy sector. Israel and the Gaza Strip effectively
      cooperate in this field despite their political problems.

      The same is true for Turkey and Cyprus. So, we should come together
      and form a joint wholesale energy market involving not only the South
      Caucasus but also Turkey and Iran," Tvalchrelidze said.
      Starting from when they (?georgians?) --- (not what they were originally called) --- first showed up at our doorstep, through all the broken treaties & agreements, continuing to when they boasted that they would send over 120,000 fighting men to help use stop the mongoloids (never happened), which left 60,000 dead, mostly Armenians. The stink was so bad from the rotting corps that the stupid mongoloids had to recamp to another location. Continuing to present day acceptance of baboonies & hominoid turks. And the lies about our churches being theirs & how we didn't help them with their original language & all our stolen lands being theirs.
      And now they in their brilliance want us to be confederate with the monkey a$s butchers to our east & west.
      There is a reason that there used to be more Armenians in Tbilisi than georgians, & there is a reason there aren't many Armenians in Tbilisi & to the south of that city today.
      Here is what you can trust a georgian for --- to stab you in the back.
      Artashes
      HARK

    10. #25
      Registered User bell-the-cat's Avatar
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      Re: Armenia's Energy sector

      Quote Originally Posted by Artashes View Post
      Starting from when they (?georgians?) --- (not what they were originally called) --- first showed up at our doorstep, through all the broken treaties & agreements, continuing to when they boasted that they would send over 120,000 fighting men to help use stop the mongoloids (never happened), which left 60,000 dead, mostly Armenians. The stink was so bad from the rotting corps that the stupid mongoloids had to recamp to another location. Continuing to present day acceptance of baboonies & hominoid turks. And the lies about our churches being theirs & how we didn't help them with their original language & all our stolen lands being theirs.
      And now they in their brilliance want us to be confederate with the monkey a$s butchers to our east & west.
      There is a reason that there used to be more Armenians in Tbilisi than georgians, & there is a reason there aren't many Armenians in Tbilisi & to the south of that city today.
      Here is what you can trust a georgian for --- to stab you in the back.
      Artashes
      It takes a lot to show Georgians in a good light - but thanks to Artashes they appear positively shining. Mind you the most disgusting bug looks good when side-by side with Artashes.
      Plenipotentiary meow!

    11. #26
      Registered User bell-the-cat's Avatar
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      Re: Armenia's Energy sector

      Quote Originally Posted by Vrej1915 View Post
      A 100GW NPP IS NEEDED TO ENSURE THE ENERGY SECURITY OF THE SOUTH CAUCASUS, TURKEY AND IRAN

      by Arthur Yernjakyan

      ARMINFO
      Thursday, October 24, 17:58

      A 100GW NPP and a 10bln c m underground gas storage facility are needed
      to ensure the energy security of the South Caucasus, Turkey and Iran,
      Vice President of the Georgian Academy of Natural Sciences Alexander
      Tvalchrelidze told ArmInfo on Thursday.

      He said that the International Energy Agency and the U.S. Department
      of Energy forecast a steady growth in global energy consumption till
      2040. "In order to keep pace, Armenia and Georgia should increase
      their generating capacities by respective 0.6% and 1% annually,"
      Tvalchrelidze said.

      He said that the 1,060MW NPP Armenia is going to build will be enough
      for this country only but not for the whole region. "It should be
      a European-type NPP, like those in France, and should be built in
      Northern Turkey, Northern Iran or Armenia," Tvalchrelidze said.

      He also recommends building a large underground gas storage facility.

      "The Abovyan facility in Armenia can hold no more than 180mln c m.

      This will hardly do for more than 30 days, while the new facility
      should hold as much as 10bln c m - a quantity that will meet the
      whole region's needs for as long as 3-4 months," Tvalchrelidze said,
      adding that the new facility may be built in Georgia.

      "In order to synchronize our energy systems, we need no less than 500KV
      lines. The existing ones allow Armenia to synchronize its system with
      Iran and Georgia but not with Turkey and Azerbaijan - for political
      reasons. In its turn, Georgia's system is synchronized with Armenia
      and Azerbaijan but not with Russia, Iran and Turkey. There must not be
      politics in the energy sector. Israel and the Gaza Strip effectively
      cooperate in this field despite their political problems.

      The same is true for Turkey and Cyprus. So, we should come together
      and form a joint wholesale energy market involving not only the South
      Caucasus but also Turkey and Iran," Tvalchrelidze said.
      Energy is a trade good just like any other goods, and free and fare trade between countries promotes cooperation and stability between those countries. So it would certainly make sense for all the region's countries to share energy production costs, though realistically such a thing is never going to happen in the Caucasus.
      Plenipotentiary meow!

    12. #27
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      Re: Armenia's Energy sector

      Quote Originally Posted by bell-the-cat View Post
      It takes a lot to show Georgians in a good light - but thanks to Artashes they appear positively shining. Mind you the most disgusting bug looks good when side-by side with Artashes.
      Of course by reading my post & georgian history it's obvious not much good light comes from either sector.
      But our resident knit wit troll first says 180 degree opposite as an opening to throw an insult
      So, as honesty begets honesty & forthrightness begets forthrightness.
      --- your still a conniving half wit bell.
      HARK

    13. #28
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      Re: Armenia's Energy sector

      Quote Originally Posted by bell-the-cat View Post
      Energy is a trade good just like any other goods, and free and fare trade between countries promotes cooperation and stability between those countries. So it would certainly make sense for all the region's countries to share energy production costs, though realistically such a thing is never going to happen in the Caucasus.
      A post by bell the cat that is sensible without any degrading comments.
      If it weren't for your preceding nonsensical post, I'd have to say your group therepy is actually starting to help you.
      Yes, bell is right when he says --- realistically such a thing is never going to happen in the Caucases.
      I might have substituted "not" for never though.
      Also would say why this "should" not happen.
      turk genocide (both east & west) without the slightest remorse but rather denial instead. And of course georgias backstabbing history, again without remorse.
      Probably should not forget the turk pan turan wet dream skeem.
      HARK

    14. #29
      Registered User Mher's Avatar
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      Re: Armenia's Energy sector

      Having it placed in Iran is one thing, but having it placed in Turkic land and hoping Turks live up to the most basic standards of humanity is a chance not very many Armenians will take. Any Armenians who lived through the 92-94 winters of freeze and starvation will laugh at the idea of counting on a Turk to do the humane thing when things go awry.
      <<եթե զենք էլ չլինի' ես քարերով կկրվեմ>>

    15. #30
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      Re: Armenia's Energy sector

      Just a little description of our Gas network, to make the debate clearer, since the subject is:
      - of strategic nature, economy/security/military.
      - one of the sole fields, where at least theoritically we may have a good economic potential, and a place on a regional scale, if transit plans were to be implemented.
      - a field, where our national interests DO NOT COINCIDE, to say the least, with Russia's.

      SOVIET LEGACY:
      Gas is a relatively modern energy for SRA, and the Transcausasus in general. It was developed in the 70's and on. The Armenian SR was not seen as an entity, but in the frame of the Transcaucasian 3 republics.
      There were 3 Gas pipes entering Armenian territory, and thus bringing Russia's Gas. Back then, Baku was not a significant producer, and Armenia's economy was largely based on petro-chemistry, notably the 2 major complexes of Yerevan (Nayirit), and Vanazor (aka-Kirovakan/ Chimprom factory).
      1- The Northern pipe, passing by North Ossetia, Georgia, Marneul (Treghk), Ayrum, Vanazor...
      This medium size pipe was secondary, in the general plan of the GOSPLAN's Transcausaus Gas network in full development then.
      2- The main Gas pipe coming from Kazakh/Aghstafa (Az), to Ijevan. Was ment to be the major pipe for Yerevan.
      3- The special Pipe for Nakhitchevan, specially built on the demand of Mr Aliyev Heidar, then the "main" boss of the Transcaucasus, well placed in the Politburo of Moskwa, and close accomplice of Brejnev. This went from Akna(aka-Agdam), Askeran,Stepanakert, Shushi, Perzor(aka-Lacin), Goris, Sisian, Shahabunk(aka-Shahpuz, Nakh), Nakhitchevan.
      The main asset of Armenia: In the entire network, there was a medium size strategic reserve, built in Apovian, in the territory of big salt deposit (natural salt mine reserves). This is a very favorable geological strata, safe, economical, easy to expand, if necessary.
      Since the idea of independance, war, let alone a blockade was not even imaginable, the aim of the reserve was to insure the security of the network, in case there was an accident, on the pipes coming from Russia.

      WAR:
      During the war, and pre-war period, as soon as it had the capacity, Azerbaijan cut the main Gas pipe of Armenia, coming to Ijevan, as it cut the rail & road communications.
      For a while, even during part of the dark and cold winter 1991, thanks to the necessity to sent Gas to Nakhitchevan and Shushi, Baku was forced to sent some gas true Stepanakert and Goris.
      Thus, while bombarded and encirceled, living in the basements and the dark, Stepanakertzis did have some gas, to keep warm...
      Having no direct pipe link from Goris to Yerevan, via Armenian territory (the network passed via Nakhitchevan), Armenia could not divert some gas to its central network, even if the pressure would definitely not been enough, since the Armenian network was dependant from Nakhitchevan , even for its internal transport.
      Having Lost Its main pipe, and the pipe via NKR and the south, the only entrance left was the pipe via Georgia. All along, the Georgians syphoned shamelessly huge parts of the gas ment for Yerevan, and even more so, as the pipe did go via Treghk (aka Marneul), now mainly an azeri inhabited region of of Georgia, borderin 2/3 of Armenia's Northern Border with Georgia, the azeri services blew up this pipe time and time again, at their will, if I do remember well, might be 20 times ... thus the cold years...


      INDEPENDANCE:
      As soon as relative peace was established, the idea of a Gas pipe from Iran was evident.
      First plans were layed in 1996.
      But Russia Blocked with all its might, to exclude any possiilty of Transit, of Iranian Gas to Europe.... And since at tat time Gas price was very cheap, arround 50 USD that time, the Armenian authorities did not felt the emergency of an Iranian source.
      With time passing, Russian/Georgian relations deteriorating, the only pipe coming in via Georgia got older and older. Allready under sised..; plus, Georgia solving its gas import via its close alliance with Baku and Ankara, the northern pipe appeared more fragile as ever. At first shot of a new war, we may be certain, that Baku will decide to blow out the pipe coming from Georgia, regardeless what Maskwa, Tiflis, or anybody else could think about, since it has all ability to do so...
      The only hope was the reserves in Apovian, thus turning to VERY HIGH STRATEGIC OBJECT for Armenia.
      With a new factor. Georgia being in fact independant from russian gas, has no more any incentive, to haste the potential repairs necessary... (already in 92-94, often repairs were done by teams sent from Armenia).
      Anyway, during Kocharian years, some very imprtant strategic plans were implemented, enabling Armenia to face a new war in a more operative situation: The tunnel of Tilijan was finished, the Spantaryan/Ketchud (Vorotan/Arpa) tunnel finalised, even if it effectively never transported a drop of water to Sevan, the road linking Ijevan to Vanatzor was built, the second road directly from Kapan to Meghri, via Dzav (bypassing Kajaran pass and Nakhitchevan threat) etc...
      In this same logic, and even with much delay, due to Russian veto, the pipe from Iran was built.
      It was built by Iranian finances, and state budget of Armenia. The Russians refused to finance, thus the pipe was State property, independant from already partially russian hold Hayrusgazart.
      Plus, Armenia had to built a second section, inside its territory, linking Sisian with Ararat, to bypass the Nakhitchevan blockade, of the Soviet era network...

      The reason/pretext permitting the construction (ok of Moskwa), was to use it in a Gas/electricity swap plan with Iran, using thus the V block of Hraztan power plant, yet not built, and planned during Soviet era, and in fact overcapacity for shrinked Armenian industry...

      This point is very important, to understand our Iranian partners.
      They did not really need the power generating capacity of Hraztan, but on a long range perspective, accepted the idea, to bypass the veto of Moskwa, having the firm hope, to turn, even the forcefully minimized pipe's infrastructure, as a transit road, to export to Europe (since most important and harassing work, the earth and infrastructure are done, adding a bigger pipe next the existing demands much less efforts and funds.)

      When if fact, our regime passed the new pipe, from state control to Russians (Hayrusgazart), and then ended up selling not only its network, the Apovian reserves, plus the OBLIGATION to buy only rusian gas for the coming 30 years, he Iranians have grounds to feel betrayed.

      In all logic, this policy is not in best terest of Armenia, even if it is for the regime ???
      Last edited by Vrej1915; 01-11-2014 at 04:09 AM.

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