Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Jgk; what I would like to see though that our newer generations of Armenians in Armenia that have a great deal assymilated to Russians, to have them completely educated and knowledgeable about our vast history, also the last 100-200 years history. The same goes with our Diasporan Armenians. Both in Armenia and in the Diaspora; we have to have our newer generation of Armenians to be better educated, to be more patriotic and not just Russian lovers and in the Diaspora Western lovers; but to be more patriotic Armenians. This I find is lacking within Armenians of today. This is extremely important for us now. And I don't know why our government is not working on these important matters in there.

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

I agree that Monte would be outraged by the statements that were coming out of Yerevan not very long ago. I suppose this outrage towards the choices made by our leadership is normal.

However, for Armenia to become Greater Armenia again someday, it cannot jump westwards, all by itself, against the Turkish army and expect to come out alive. It is just senseless to try such a thing. Even if Turkey had deadly internal problems and had to dedicate a lot of her army on another front, Armenia would at the least need a powerful ally who joined in the warfare to successfully gain control over Western Armenia.

As things stand now, Russia would not attack Turkey unless Nato wanted to use Turkey to stage an attack on Russia, which doesn't sound like something either side would like to happen. In fact, Turkey is an important economic partner of Russia and given the balance of power between Nato and Russia in this region, both sides would much rather stabilize the region than to ignite causes for warfare. This is a scenario where if Armenia becomes too chauvinistic, or that she pursues her own interests to a degree that angers the superpowers she is sitting between, she will bear the classic punishment by both Turkey and Russia together. We've already experienced this and it's the reason why we lost Kars, Nakhitchevan and for a time, Artsakh. I for one would not like to lose another piece of our country and dedicate another 100 years to try to get that extra added loss back. We must focus on what we have, and make it stronger, keep the unity of Armenians so that we can endure the times and strike at a better time. I would much more prioritize diplomatically bringing Javakh into greater proximity to Armenia than to load up guns and go after Nakhitchevan.

There's a good reason why a couple of people and I talk about Naxichevan. Firstly, it is too bad that Armenia's government didn't do anything after the whole world viewed on broad daylight how the tatars "azeris" demolished our 2,500 Xachkars. Our government then could have made a good deal about it and convince the Western world that since Stalin gave that land to the tatars to please Attaturk, and since the tatars are abusing and demolishing our cultural monuments from the middle ages, then we could've tried to get Naxichevan back hopefully without a war. Secondly, getting Naxichevan and having Artsax to be accepted by the world powers we would then stand the good chance of a stronger Armenia and the turks' dreams of pan-turkism would be hopefully demolished.

If our government would be able to get back our Javakhk, especially when Georgia is neglecting the Armenians in there, it would be that much better for Armenia to expand from the North. In any case Javakhk was ours.

[jgk3]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

I agree that Monte would be outraged by the statements that were coming out of Yerevan not very long ago. I suppose this outrage towards the choices made by our leadership is normal.

However, for Armenia to become Greater Armenia again someday, it cannot jump westwards, all by itself, against the Turkish army and expect to come out alive. It is just senseless to try such a thing. Even if Turkey had deadly internal problems and had to dedicate a lot of her army on another front, Armenia would at the least need a powerful ally who joined in the warfare to successfully gain control over Western Armenia.

As things stand now, Russia would not attack Turkey unless Nato wanted to use Turkey to stage an attack on Russia, which doesn't sound like something either side would like to happen. In fact, Turkey is an important economic partner of Russia and given the balance of power between Nato and Russia in this region, both sides would much rather stabilize the region than to ignite causes for warfare. This is a scenario where if Armenia becomes too chauvinistic, or that she pursues her own interests to a degree that angers the superpowers she is sitting between, she will bear the classic punishment by both Turkey and Russia together. We've already experienced this and it's the reason why we lost Kars, Nakhitchevan and for a time, Artsakh. I for one would not like to lose another piece of our country and dedicate another 100 years to try to get that extra added loss back. We must focus on what we have, and make it stronger, keep the unity of Armenians so that we can endure the times and strike at a better time. I would much more prioritize diplomatically bringing Javakh into greater proximity to Armenia than to load up guns and go after Nakhitchevan.

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

It is a disgrace to hear that our nationalism is the same chauvinistic variety that was widespread in Europe, leading to WWI, the variety that continues to exist today in the Balkans.

Jgk, I see that you went to the deep end extreme for the word "nationalism" comparing it to the crazy Nazzis or the blood sucking turks. I'm afraid you didn't get the gist of nationalism whatsoever and what it has transpired in here.

I Monte Melkonian gave off a similar aura in his endless self-sacrifice for the Armenian people, a self sacrifice that could never be so complete if anger and hatred were his drives.

Monte Melkonian wished to fight against the enemy lines to be able to make Armenia from sea to sea. Monte was a true Hero a Fedayi with a super heart and all devoted for his countrymen. He probably did not have anger in his heart then, because he was acting out his feelings with determination towards his people by fighting and trying to achieve in getting his dreams of a greater Armenia on the world's map that once it has belonged to us and that it was taken away from us. Yet I don't know how Monte Melkonian would have felt today if he was alive and saw the lands that he had fought and gave his sweet life for, today Armenia's government lavishly was about signing papers with our number one enemy to possibly give it away to the enemy. And if Monte was alive, I don't think his blood pressure would have not arisen when Armenia's president announced to the world that we aren't going to ask turkey for any renumeraitons or for the recognition of the Armenian Genocide.

As my blood pressure went up and I'm pretty sure to so many Armenians both in the Diaspora and in Armenia, Monte's blood pressure would have gone up too.

"Ayskan charik te moranan mer vortik togh voghch ashxarh garta Hayoon naxadink.

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Awwwwe.... come on Anoush, don't take all the fun out of the conversations

KanadaHye you don't have to make a comeback of this little thing.

Eddo and I have already resolved this little misunderstanding of mine, we still support each other, don't worry about it. The minute Armenia wants Naxichevan back and if a war broke down, him and I are going to the front lines against the enemy, he will defend me as I will defend him against the enemy lines.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

People, just because we disagree we don't have to mock each other as you are doing it to me above Eddo nor do we have to use such uncalled for utterances as your above statements. Sarcasm at it's worse. It's too bad. I'm out of this thread.

Awwwwe.... come on Anoush, don't take all the fun out of the conversations

[jgk3]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Perhaps the problem with what we call nationalism is how its meaning was lost in translation from what the founders of Tashnaktsutyun and Tseghakron described? I don't know, because I never got to read what they said (if someone can point out some English translations of their works, I would greatly appreciate it).

It is a disgrace to hear that our nationalism is the same chauvinistic variety that was widespread in Europe, leading to WWI, the variety that continues to exist today in the Balkans.

I think Saco is onto something by saying that Njdeh and General Antranik's "nationalism" was beyond the popular variety we find today, because their orientation was firmly set in their love towards the Armenian people and not hatred of the enemy, even though they would fight it to the death. I find Monte Melkonian gave off a similar aura in his endless self-sacrifice for the Armenian people, a self sacrifice that could never be so complete if anger and hatred were his drives.

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Anoush jan, with all do respect…………….what makes you think that I was mocking you? I was being dead serious. I consider the Turkish ultra-nationalists (not necessarily the denialists) my blood enemy and they have proven many times over and over again (not in this forum) that they want to destroy my people. They are a threat not only to us but also to their own people. For these Wolfs, ultimately blood is the only language they respect.

Eddo jan, my mistake, please forgive me for not understanding you before; I thought you were mocking me but you were not.

I understand you now Eddo, the same applies unfortunately with most ultra-nationalist fundamentalist Arabs as well. They can get very racist and nothing will stop them, as they put fire to Christian's dwellings, beat them up by gathering en masse around one or two Christians, something ugly. They can be very horrible bunch.

Some of my wise elders used to say the same thing you said above that unfortunately these horrible Wolfs, ultimately blood is the only language they respect.

But others will say that we're Christians and no matter what we shouldn't think that way. I say yes we're Christians; but since we are not attacking anyone and as a last resort if they attack to kill us as a nation; well we'll be ready for them.

[Eddo211]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Anoush jan, with all do respect…………….what makes you think that I was mocking you? I was being dead serious. I consider the Turkish ultra-nationalists (not necessarily the denialists) my blood enemy and they have proven many times over and over again (not in this forum) that they want to destroy my people. They are a threat not only to us but also to their own people. For these Wolfs, ultimately blood is the only language they respect.

Disillsionment, Eddo, I think he was sick to the back teeth of the government, the Allies denying their only friend in Caucasus realistic borders and assistance. He was a very tired man, physically and mentally, feeling betrayed by many he had held dear.

As you can tell hrai, I am having a hard time understanding our good General………….some of the statements he made during his last days in Fresno, CA is shocking.
Anoush is right, let’s drop it.

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Why not? I think it is only fair to return the favor when we can………….especially when they are still at it.

People, just because we disagree we don't have to mock each other as you are doing it to me above Eddo nor do we have to use such uncalled for utterances as your above statements. Sarcasm at it's worse. It's too bad. I'm out of this thread.