Etymology of Armenian First Names

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

The trailing 'a' is sometimes dropped even by Russians when say calling that person. The 'a' is indeed seen on almost all diminutive versions, but in Armenian, this is an optional thing.
....
Another example I can think of would be taking the 'a' from Grisha, the popular Grish,

I have spent some time with some Russian friends/colleagues who explained the usage of the different "declinations" of a First Name in Russian - including dropping the trailing 'a.' The following is a brief summary of what I've learned - of course, it may or may not correspond to the usage in Armenia:
1. The different "declinations" or forms of a First Name reflect - and depend on - the relationships and the proper protocol to address the person; in other words, a person formally called "Vladimir" may be called "Volodya" in a casual professional relationship but, not in a formal professional relationship unless the person is comfortable with it or presents himself as "Volodya." In any case, a peron usually indicates that he/she accepts being called in a certain way.
A Vladimir may not be called "Vova" or "Vovochka" in a business environment, but only by close friends and relatives. In a business environment, it may be perceived as a form of contempt.

2. As for dropping the trailing 'a,' the following seems of interest:

It somehow implies confidential nature. You say "Dim" instead of "Dima" only in a private conversation and usually when you want to confide something or somehow solicit his honest but private opinion.
Can be used in professional relations also when you want to show closer relationship with that person in front of the others. .....

Serozh is just like any dropping of "a". If you have a very close relation with the gentlemen, you may use it...Otherwise it is a more of the term of contempt.

In other words, it is inaccurate to consider "Vova" or "Volodya" as First Names as they simply are different forms - "declinations" - to address a person with the First Name "Vladimir." Of course, the same applies to other First Names and its "declinations."

P.S.
By the way, I've been told that, less frequently, "Dima" may be used to address a Vadim or Vladimir.

In other words, Armenians are not required to abide by the Russian convention of having the 'a', even though they certainly know that it's the proper way.

I'm not sure what was meant, but "to be required to abide by" seems a very strong expression when it comes to such linguistic "habits" - foreign or not - that are not governed by strict grammatical rules; usually, they are reproduced or mimicked.
Furthermore, such linguistic habits do not evolve - or are adapted, either by Armenians or Russians - based on conscious and/or unanimous decisions: they just happen depending on usage and usage is conditioned by circumstances, social protocols, cultural values etc.

even Armenianizing it as Grishik.

For the record, the suffix "ik" is not necessarily Armenian; actually, Ukrainians use it as well, maybe others too??????

Another example: a very 'rabiz' version of Volodia is Volod. As in: "Ara en Volod@ Losic nor heta darcel, het@ karsun zuik koshika berel".

I don't know if "Volod" is a "rabiz?????" form of "Volodya," but it is the Ukrainian form of "Volodya" i.e. a diminutive of "Volodimir/Volodymyr." That was the feeling of the Russians and I used to have an Ukranian colleague, named "Volodymyr," that we called "Volod."




To conclude, I would simply add:
"Does the fact that "Serozh" is used in different cultures that are somehow connected make the Russian "trace" even more credible?"

That is my personal inclination; however, as we have seen with "Rafi/Raffi," all possible "traces" should be considered because "mono trace" - or origin - models are simplistic illusions, abandoned many centuries ago - the same applies to anything that "has a history" i.e. races, cultures, ideas etc.

[Lucin]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

As in: "Ara en Volod@ Losic nor heta darcel, het@ karsun zuik koshika berel".

[karoaper]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

Again, thanks for explaining your view or opinion; however, considering that
1. The trailing 'a' is essential in the Russian diminutive form
2. Armenians are familiar with Russian and its subtleties
3. In other cases - i.e. Olga, Sasha, Vova... - the essential trailing 'a' was kept by Armenians
I have an issue understanding why the essential trailing 'a' in the Russian "Seriozha/Serioja" was dropped in the Armenian "Serozh/Seroj???"
Can you think of a couple of other cases where it was dropped? Thanks.

Also, do you know how it is in Tolstoy's Armenian translation of Anna Karenina??? Maybe Lucin, or someone else, can tell us how it is in the Farsi translation of the novel???

The trailing 'a' is sometimes dropped even by Russians when say calling that person. The 'a' is indeed seen on almost all diminutive versions, but in Armenian, this is an optional thing. In other words, Armenians are not required to abide by the Russian convention of having the 'a', even though they certainly know that it's the proper way. Btw, this only happens with male diminutive forms. Another example I can think of would be taking the 'a' from Grisha, the popular Grish, even Armenianizing it as Grishik. Another example: a very 'rabiz' version of Volodia is Volod. As in: "Ara en Volod@ Losic nor heta darcel, het@ karsun zuik koshika berel".

[Sip]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

No, Why should I have a fixation on Siamanto? It hasn't been a hurdle for me.

Strangely enough, it only seems to have been a hurdle for the person who chose it as a nickname I bet he/she is still desparately trying to produce even a SINGLE female Siamanto anywhere

[Lucin]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

1 of 2


I will start my post with a possible explanation of the origin of "Raffi," the novelist's pen name.
According to the following biography of Raffi, mentioned earlier by Lucin:


Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the above mentioned work; but, would it be unrealistic to consider or see in the novelist's "Mr. Alexander Raffi" a reference to Alexander Raphael, the "first British-Armenian to serve in the House of Commons of the United Kingdom?"


If the above interpretation is true, than it suggests that
1. Either the British-Armenian was also - maybe commonly??? - known as Alexander Raffi and/or "Raffi" was already used as a diminutive of "Raphael."

The above interpretation is made more credible considering that in the past, "Rafi/Raffi" was apparently used anywhere from Southern Europe to India. Furthermore, it seems that it was used
1. In the "West" - Italy, Spain??? J.e.ws... - as the diminutive of "Raphael???"
2. In the "East" - Arab World, Iran, India... - as derived from the Arabic First Name???

Interesting point… but could someone like Alexander Raphael be an inspiration to Raffi, the novelist? It's possible… I found no information on the book, however the title of the book; "On Mr. Alexander Raffi's Travels In Persia" gives me the impression that the novel could have been a kind of biography -not fully close to his (of that British Armenian) reality- or a segment of Alexander Raphael's life as a diplomat and his possible travels to Persia…
Also it says in the biography:

he proposed that it would be well for Melik-Hagopian to write a piece based on his ample knowledge of the life of Armenians both in his native Persia,
as well as in Turkish Armenia.

But now we need to know if Raffi is a diminutive of Raphael or not… whether it has been used as a diminutive of Raphael or not amongst different people?

2. The pen name is a diminutive of "Raphael" and not the Perso-Arabic "Rafi/Rafik." Actually, the biography suggests that Raffi had no or little interest in the Perso-Arabic cultural world????

Which part of the biography gave you that impression?

2 of 2


1. First of all, at no point, I was opposing my suggestion to yours; I'm sorry if you felt it that way. I was simply reminding you that others - not necessarily me - may see it differently; in fact, I said:
"some Armenians - who may be as knowledgeable of our culture and as patriotic as we are - may consider 'Vladimir,'...
"I won't be surprised to learn that more Armenians would feel more comfortable with 'Vladimir'..."
In fact
1.1 Names like "Vladimir," "Patrick," "Armand" are included in the existing dictionaries; while "Arbi," "Arabo," "Seroj" are not. Furthermore, "Patrick" that you seem to perceive as an Irish First Name was, apparently, the name of a IX Century Armenian prince i.e. Patrig Antsevatsi.
1.2 According to armradio.am - see post above - "Arman[d]" is a popular name
1.3....

Patrick is an Irish name; remember Saint Patrick? Anyway it was (is) my personal approach to the question and names' dictionaries are also written by different individuals with different perceptions.

Armand is different from Arman.

2. Second of all, more than once, I suggested to include both lists - at least, initially. I don't think that many "non Armenian" First Names will be included; in fact, it would be easy to limit to the most common ones

3. Also, for the record
3.1 This is the first time that you suggest to exclude those names that you have presented as "Armenian."
3.2 The focus was point 6 of post #10 i.e. foreign First Names used by Armenians

Because we don't know yet if Arbi, Arabo, etc are not Armenian but yes, in order to be more accurate they'd rather not be included.... Actually, I could not find any data on those names; except that Arabo has been a Dashnak hero…

P.S. By the way, Monique Ekmekdjian, the author of the dictionary in French seems to be a "purist", "selective" or "conservative" like you??? I'm probably a bit more inclusive.

I didn't know the honorable Hrachia Ajarian had written a First name's dictionary; it can be very interesting (at least to me) and worth buying it…

I'm not sure what you mean???
First of all, a word or a name can be transliterated in a different language even when the object/person is physically absent.

So?? I don't understand why you said the above.

Second of all, why not Iranian immigrants? J.e.wish? etc. It seems that "Rafi/Raffi" is and was used from Italy to India???
Besides the Perso-Arabic "usage/trace" there seems to be also the Judeo-Christian "usage/trace" of "Raffi/Raffi."

LOL, Iranian? As a surname yes. Arab and probably Jewish; if Jews have transformed Raphael to Raffi…

First of all, I hope that the above is just a silly joke and you don't have, like Sip, a fixation on "Siamanto????"

No, Why should I have a fixation on Siamanto? It hasn't been a hurdle for me.

Second of all, LOL why would I write a dictionary when my views - contrary to yours - are aligned with the existing "status quo?" LOL I thought that it was your goal to "correct" the situation and make of "Siamanto" a full fledged Armenian First Name.

Of course; the day I become as fluent as Mr. Ajarian in Armenian, I would do so definitely…

Yes, and as long as it is not used among non-Iranians it would make no difference. Would it?

Actually it would; since the mystery remains why it is being used uniquely by Iranian-Armenians and no other people (Armenian or not)??

Yes, it is funny because there is a space that separates the First Name from "ibn/ebn" that is part of the Last Name. It's as funny as considering "Petervon" as the First Name in "Peter Von Neuman." It's well known that in Arabic "ibn" is not part of the First Name.
By the way, the following document suggests that there's a clear separation between "ebn" and the First Name, even in Farsi??

I don't understand why it is funny? Either way it doesn't make a difference. As you said later; it's not clear exactly if it's a part of the last name or a middle name, especially if you knew Persian and knew how it is pronounced, you would understand better what I mean.
What's more contrary to 'Von Neuman', 'ebn Harthima' cannot be pronounced separately. (separate from the first name)

LOL Good Luck! In the meantime, he'll be considered Iranian as the documents suggest.
For the record, I know an Iranian Armenian family with a Scottish??? Last Name - a great grandfather was from Scotland and mixed with the local Armenians.

That's different. Their ancestor was Scottish… but if he is Iranian, I don't understand why Pitts as his surname??

Did anybody say that the usage is common? The existence has been established and that's all it matters.
Realistically, how many documents would you expect to find - online or in archives - about historical personalities individuals with a given name?
We may never be able to tell how common it was???

By common, I meant it's not being used today. At least my constant exposure to these people suggests that.

LOL What's the point? The same applies to any name said with an accent or in an unfamiliar way in any part of the world?
LOL Lucin, you need to travel and be confronted with lexical/phonetic/....differences and/or variations.

I have been enough exposed to different cultures besides Persian; but my point was 'Rafi' with its Persian pronunciation and as a first name not Րաֆֆի...

I'm sorry that you have misunderstood, but I did not say that "Kirdi" means Kurd in Persian.
LOL To make it simple
1. Look at the map of the region
2. Localize the areas where Kurds have lived and/or were present
3. Make a list of all the languages spoken in those areas
4. Consider the word that means Kurd in those languages. You can ask your Arabic teacher for Arabic - I'm told it is "Krdi/Kirdi" - and for jurkish google "kirdi/kurd/kurt" or check this page: What are Kurds Called?

LOL Always, keep in mind slight phonetic/lexical variations???

It can be that kirdi means Kurd in some other languages but not in Persian anyway….

1. LOL Do you really think that the usage of "d.i.c.k" as a private part precedes it's usage as a First Name? I would be surprised.
2. An Armenian example was also given and based on my exposure to Iranians, I did not see a huge difference between Armenians and Persians, from that point of view - i.e. when it comes to "pudeur"

1.LOL, no but I don't care since D.ick has two meanings in English contrary to its Persian equivalent.('kir')

2.No, there is not much difference between us when it comes to 'pudeur' but what did you see in the Iranians?? Of course they might use easily all those words related to private parts in English but not in Persian.
By the way, I didn't get you; what Armenian example are you talking about??

What and how does it explain??? You've lost me. Is a description an explanation???
In any case, you really need to keep an open mind about phonetic/lexical variations due to usage, time, space and transliterations.

You are not lost; you got me right.

There's a huge difference between "being influenced" and "being confined;" don't you think so?

Okay, choosing a Persian or Arabic pen name due to regional influences does not mean that one is confined to a particular place; does it?

LOL Maybe I was mislead by your reply??

No, you were not. I will post on 'Seroj' later.

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

Sorry no data.
Just a logical hunch, or more precisely a judgment based on comparison of possible connections. Since, it is most probably a name derived from other foreign names, the connection to diminutive/slangish Serzh or Serozh (which are popular in Armenia and most definitely derived form Sergey and Seriozha) is in my opinion stronger than any other connection.

Again, thanks for explaining your view or opinion; however, considering that
1. The trailing 'a' is essential in the Russian diminutive form
2. Armenians are familiar with Russian and its subtleties
3. In other cases - i.e. Olga, Sasha, Vova... - the essential trailing 'a' was kept by Armenians
I have an issue understanding why the essential trailing 'a' in the Russian "Seriozha/Serioja" was dropped in the Armenian "Serozh/Seroj???"
Can you think of a couple of other cases where it was dropped? Thanks.

Also, do you know how it is in Tolstoy's Armenian translation of Anna Karenina??? Maybe Lucin, or someone else, can tell us how it is in the Farsi translation of the novel???

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

ERROR ERROR ERROR....
That "knowledge base" is crap man!
Random Access Memory?!!! What the xxxx?!
Is that what Vram means?! I'm dreadful!

There seems to be a problem with your computer because our system does not display such an error message. I suggest that you stop blaming us and contact either Microsoft or your vendor, instead.

I'm intrigued, by the way. Why would anyone (any sane person) post in here if he or she hold already the required info. Isn't that weird?!
Sharing, "Contribution" you'd say?
Well, based on what I have seen in here, that's absurd! You know what you know; to hell with others...

Because exact knowledge of the origin of words, concepts, races etc. is seldom - not to say, never - possible; contribution and sharing means confrontation of different views that can stimulate the mind and create dynamics.

Now it seems you're the best cook around. Chop chop, I'm
take care

LOL You just bring your zourna as if music was all we needed to celebrate; a cook also needs some ingredients - that you can contribute - to prepare meals for the gourmets hungry for knowledge.

Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, you know what's funny! )))
check this out http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=vram+name+meaning
Your "knowledge Base" result of Vram. )))

LOL Seeing is believing; you have probably thought that I was joking when I said "our."





Please be patient...and contribute! Thanks!

[zourna]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, you know what's funny! )))
check this out http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=vram+name+meaning
Your "knowledge Base" result of Vram. )))

[Sip]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

I had a very interesting conversation with my grandma today ... turns out one of her most favorite literary works is "Siamanto ev Khajezare" by Hovhannes Shiraz. I told her about this weirdo on the Internet that wants to continue to "argue" about whether or not Siamanto is a male name and she found it rather amusing

[zourna]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

ERROR ERROR ERROR....
That "knowledge base" is crap man!
Random Access Memory?!!! What the xxxx?!
Is that what Vram means?! I'm dreadful!

I'm intrigued, by the way. Why would anyone (any sane person) post in here if he or she hold already the required info. Isn't that weird?!
Sharing, "Contribution" you'd say?
Well, based on what I have seen in here, that's absurd! You know what you know; to hell with others...

Now it seems you're the best cook around. Chop chop, I'm
take care