Etymology of Armenian First Names

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

there is a space that separates the First Name from "ibn/ebn" that is part of the Last Name.

I meant to say that "ibn/ebn" is not part of the First Name. There may not be an explicit Middle Name in Arabic as there is one in some other cultures, but "ibn/ebn" seems to be part of what may be a "Middle Name."

4. Consider the word that means Kurd in those languages. You can ask your Arabic teacher for Arabic - I'm told it is "Krdi/Kirdi"

Or just search for "Kirdi" on this page.

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

Sorry no data.
Just a logical hunch, or more precisely a judgment based on comparison of possible connections. Since, it is most probably a name derived from other foreign names, the connection to diminutive/slangish Serzh or Serozh (which are popular in Armenia and most definitely derived form Sergey and Seriozha) is in my opinion stronger than any other connection.

Thanks for the explanation, that's something I can chew on; so let me digest it before I become more inquisitive.

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

2 of 2

Maybe I was mislead by your initial comment on 4: "Widely used or rarely used, is not a good criterion to start with" and other similar comments regarding 6?

Also, you seem to appreciate it in a quite selective manner and based on your personal preferences; honestly, some Armenians - who may be as knowledgeable of our culture and as patriotic as we are - may consider "Vladimir," Igor," Christian," "Armand," "Pierre," "Peter," "Paul," "Patrick" etc." more appropriate for Armenians and better fit to be included in a dictionary than "Arbi," "Narbe," "Seroj," "Arabo" etc." Let's keep in mind the nature of our nation and history and be as open minded and inclusive as possible; at least, initially - we can always prune later.
Also, I won't be surprised to learn that more Armenians would feel more comfortable with "Vladimir," Igor," Christian," "Armand," "Pierre," "Peter," "Paul," "Patrick" etc." than "Arbi," "Narbe," "Seroj," "Arabo" etc." and inter-subjectivity is a better ersatz of objectivity than subjectivity is???

The point is that the importance of the usage of words, should be appreciated regardless of its origin(s) and/or other factors.

It's not a matter of being open-minded; I'm afraid that by including all these English, Irish, Russian or French names, the dictionary would turn into a "first names' dictionary".
How do you know that your suggestion is intersubjective and mine not?? Have you taken a census?
But to avoid confusion and in order to be more accurate, names such as Arbi, Arabo and etc-exclusively used by Persian Armenians- could be excluded as well as Vladimirs, Joes and Michels…

1. First of all, at no point, I was opposing my suggestion to yours; I'm sorry if you felt it that way. I was simply reminding you that others - not necessarily me - may see it differently; in fact, I said:
"some Armenians - who may be as knowledgeable of our culture and as patriotic as we are - may consider 'Vladimir,'...
"I won't be surprised to learn that more Armenians would feel more comfortable with 'Vladimir'..."
In fact
1.1 Names like "Vladimir," "Patrick," "Armand" are included in the existing dictionaries; while "Arbi," "Arabo," "Seroj" are not. Furthermore, "Patrick" that you seem to perceive as an Irish First Name was, apparently, the name of a IX Century Armenian prince i.e. Patrig Antsevatsi.
1.2 According to armradio.am - see post above - "Arman[d]" is a popular name
1.3....

2. Second of all, more than once, I suggested to include both lists - at least, initially. I don't think that many "non Armenian" First Names will be included; in fact, it would be easy to limit to the most common ones

3. Also, for the record
3.1 This is the first time that you suggest to exclude those names that you have presented as "Armenian."
3.2 The focus was point 6 of post #10 i.e. foreign First Names used by Armenians

P.S. By the way, Monique Ekmekdjian, the author of the dictionary in French seems to be a "purist", "selective" or "conservative" like you??? I'm probably a bit more inclusive.

4. The "nuances" that you seem to see in "Ռաֆիը" or "Ռաֆիի" when such regional/dialectal differences are common. I suggest that you take a look at this link and compare all the "related" versions of the name - even if there may be inaccuracies

Although there were some inaccuracies but I was surprised to see Rafi used in Britain, US, or Canada… could they be Arab immigrants??

I'm not sure what you mean???
First of all, a word or a name can be transliterated in a different language even when the object/person is physically absent.
Second of all, why not Iranian immigrants? J.e.wish? etc. It seems that "Rafi/Raffi" is and was used from Italy to India???
Besides the Perso-Arabic "usage/trace" there seems to be also the Judeo-Christian "usage/trace" of "Raffi/Raffi."

1. I know that you mean names

2. I don't understand why it is a challenge to classify the different usage frequencies using a set of predefined classes.
For instance, they can be classified either in a free style manner or in a more consistent and uniform manner using the "pattern" <Frequency><Time><Location>; where

The field <Frequency> can be either
1. Never used
2. Hardly used
3. Fairly used
4. Frequently used or poupular
5. Very frequently used or very popular

The field <Time> cab be either
1. In the past
2. In the present
3. <A certain period>
4. <A range of years>
5.....

The field <Location> can be either
1. A country
2. A region
3. A community
4.....
And if the above can be modified, refined or...if is not accurate enough or two detailed.

<Frequency><Time><Location> seems to more than enough. Am I missing something???

Go ahead Siamanto, write a dictionary. By the way which names are never used?? Siamanto??

First of all, I hope that the above is just a silly joke and you don't have, like Sip, a fixation on "Siamanto????"

Second of all, LOL why would I write a dictionary when my views - contrary to yours - are aligned with the existing "status quo?" LOL I thought that it was your goal to "correct" the situation and make of "Siamanto" a full fledged Armenian First Name.

Most of all, I was simply trying to help you understand/solve a very simply technical problem - you seemed to insist. *points to the previous posts*

LOL Is "Arbi" used outside of Iran? Would it make a difference?

However, if it will make you happier than I'll correct myself and say
"Do you remember your comments about 'Arbi' being more widely used among Armenians than other Iranians? "

Better?

LOL, the whole point was that Arbi is not used by Iranians or others at all.

Yes, and as long as it is not used among non-Iranians it would make no difference. Would it?

First of all, thank you for commenting the links, LOL was it that hard?

1. LOL Now, that is funny! What did you do with the space??? The name is "Rafi" and "ibn/ebn" - common in Arabic names - means son. The fact that the name is Arabic puzzled me as well, but it clearly says "Iranian Rebel" and, to verify, I have checked other documents; one of them suggests that he, at one point, seemingly was in Northern Iran.
The homeland of the Buyids was Daylam, in the Gilan uplands in northern Iran. There, at the end of the 9th century, hardy valley dwellers had been stirred into martial activity by a number of factors, among them the rebel Rafi' ibn Harthama's attempt to penetrate the region, ostensibly with Samanid support.

So even if Britannica is wrong about him being Iranian, the above suggests that individuals named "Rafi" were present in northern Iran, long time ago.

1. Why is it funny?? The space is put while transliterated in Latin but while written in Persian letters it is read together, but it doesn't make a difference with or without space.

Yes, it is funny because there is a space that separates the First Name from "ibn/ebn" that is part of the Last Name. It's as funny as considering "Petervon" as the First Name in "Peter Von Neuman." It's well known that in Arabic "ibn" is not part of the First Name.
By the way, the following document suggests that there's a clear separation between "ebn" and the First Name, even in Farsi??

LOL Where did you see that? I kept an open mind and looked for documents that indicates his J-e-w-ish faith. In every document that I have checked, he's presented as an Iranian. Of course, he may be of J-e-wish faith, but can you please support your claim? Thanks!

I could not find any documents on the net, suggesting that he is of J.ewish faith but the fact that he is not being talked about in the Iranian media and also his English surname- considering that the Iranian J.ews usually change their Persian surnames after leaving the country- make me believe that he is a J.ew. But I'll try to look for other sources.

LOL Good Luck! In the meantime, he'll be considered Iranian as the documents suggest.
For the record, I know an Iranian Armenian family with a Scottish??? Last Name - a great grandfather was from Scotland and mixed with the local Armenians.

Rafi may have been used among the Iranians in the past (as we have only one example) but today it is not common;

Did anybody say that the usage is common? The existence has been established and that's all it matters.
Realistically, how many documents would you expect to find - online or in archives - about historical personalities individuals with a given name?
We may never be able to tell how common it was???

say to an Iranian that your name is Rafi (Ռաֆիը) and see the reaction.

LOL What's the point? The same applies to any name said with an accent or in an unfamiliar way in any part of the world?
LOL Lucin, you need to travel and be confronted with lexical/phonetic/....differences and/or variations.

LOL I have no idea why I have added him because LOL the link clearly says "Raffi Kirdi was born in Beirut, Lebanon?????" Thanks!

By the way, why can't it be Persian? "Kirdi" probably means Kurd???
Also, have you head of "Bullugian?" How about D.i.c.k Cheney??

For the record, I found:
My 98-year old Grandfather asked me to find a way to contact you. Lucky for both of us, Raffi Kirdi was able to help us out. My grandfather escaped the Armenian genocide as a youngster, has resided in France for 16 years before settling in Aleppo.

LOL, kirdi doesn't probably mean 'kurd' in Persian. 'Kord' is the Persian word for 'Kurd'. And for the record again it doesn't say he was Persian, but I think you already know that.

I'm sorry that you have misunderstood, but I did not say that "Kirdi" means Kurd in Persian.
LOL To make it simple
1. Look at the map of the region
2. Localize the areas where Kurds have lived and/or were present
3. Make a list of all the languages spoken in those areas
4. Consider the word that means Kurd in those languages. You can ask your Arabic teacher for Arabic - I'm told it is "Krdi/Kirdi" - and for jurkish google "kirdi/kurd/kurt" or check this page: What are Kurds Called?

LOL Always, keep in mind slight phonetic/lexical variations???

Take into consideration the cultural and social differences between different peoples. As I can see in American culture some expressions and words related to private parts- like the d.ick you mentioned are used easily but in others such as Persian culture, never; to the point where they often pronounce a foreign word or a name containing those words in a distorted manner.

1. LOL Do you really think that the usage of "d.i.c.k" as a private part precedes it's usage as a First Name? I would be surprised.
2. An Armenian example was also given and based on my exposure to Iranians, I did not see a huge difference between Armenians and Persians, from that point of view - i.e. when it comes to "pudeur"

LOL How did you explain? If you mean the usage of 'Ր,' then shouldn't you provide a plausible reply to Shirak's claim that he changed it to 'Ր???'

As one letter is dropped (ը or ի) in the Armenian version and the other two (ա and ր) are pronounced differently.

What and how does it explain??? You've lost me. Is a description an explanation???
In any case, you really need to keep an open mind about phonetic/lexical variations due to usage, time, space and transliterations.

Do you have in mind the novelist? Personally, my focus is the etymology of the First Name "Rafi/Raffi" and, at this point, I don't care why the novelist chose "Raffi" as his pen name.

In any case:
1. J-e-ws have been in Persia, Iraq and Armenia long before the Arabs so it could have been "Perso-J-e-w-ish."
2. Are you trying to say that Raffi's world was confined to where he was born? I hope that he was not that narrow minded.
3. In general, but it may not apply to the novelist, do you think that people are/were aware that "Rafi/Raffi" may have two - or many - different origins; or based on where they live, one origin takes precedence???

1. Yes, but the influence that the Moslem Arabs have left on Iran is much bigger than that of J.ews. However both peoples are considered Semites and definitely do have certain things in common.

Yes. My point was that both are possible and both are.

2. Being influenced by some regional or environmental elements is not a sign of "narrow-mindedness", it's just natural and sometimes inevitable.

There's a huge difference between "being influenced" and "being confined;" don't you think so?

3.As I said the regional influence could be normal and take precedence but again it's just a speculation.

I would agree if "takes precedence" means something like "makes it more likely."

LOL OK If you are not convinced that the 'o' in "Seroj" could have been naturally added to "Serj" because vowels are often implicit in Farsi where "Serj" and "Seroj" are commonly written in the same way in Farsi; then please suggest an etymology/origin.

I have already said that 'Seroj' is another version of 'Serj'. As for why the 'o' has been added; my guess is; to facilitate the pronounciation in Persian.

LOL Maybe I was mislead by your reply??

Sometimes, vowels are not explicit in Farsi. So what? First off, there is no vowel in Serj between 'r' and 'j', and then why add one to make 'Seroj'??

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

1 of 2


I will start my post with a possible explanation of the origin of "Raffi," the novelist's pen name.
According to the following biography of Raffi, mentioned earlier by Lucin:

on January 20, 1872 began the publication of "On Mr. Alexander Raffi's Travels In Persia". This would be Hagop-Melikian's first use of the pen name "Raffi".

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the above mentioned work; but, would it be unrealistic to consider or see in the novelist's "Mr. Alexander Raffi" a reference to Alexander Raphael, the "first British-Armenian to serve in the House of Commons of the United Kingdom?"


If the above interpretation is true, than it suggests that
1. Either the British-Armenian was also - maybe commonly??? - known as Alexander Raffi and/or "Raffi" was already used as a diminutive of "Raphael."
2. The pen name is a diminutive of "Raphael" and not the Perso-Arabic "Rafi/Rafik." Actually, the biography suggests that Raffi had no or little interest in the Perso-Arabic cultural world????

The above interpretation is made more credible considering that in the past, "Rafi/Raffi" was apparently used anywhere from Southern Europe to India. Furthermore, it seems that it was used
1. In the "West" - Italy, Spain??? J.e.ws... - as the diminutive of "Raphael???"
2. In the "East" - Arab World, Iran, India... - as derived from the Arabic First Name???

[karoaper]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

Sorry no data.
Just a logical hunch, or more precisely a judgment based on comparison of possible connections. Since, it is most probably a name derived from other foreign names, the connection to diminutive/slangish Serzh or Serozh (which are popular in Armenia and most definitely derived form Sergey and Seriozha) is in my opinion stronger than any other connection.

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

I asked myself the same question; but, I also considered the fact that, in the past, what has become present day Armenia has been ruled by the Persians.

Yes, Armenia has been ruled by Persians in the past and certainly influenced to a degree. But not everything can be attributed to the Persian influence.

Of course, it cannot; I was simply inviting the reader to also consider other relevant aspects of it.

As for 'Seroj', being a diminutive of Seriozha ( as Karoaper said), it seems logical to me; and so the Iranification would be refuted.

It's not more or less "logical" than the "Iranification" of "Serj." For now, there is no data that corroborates the hypothesis that "Seroj" may be - not "is" as karoaper stated - "from the Russian Seriozha" - karoaper did not use "diminutive" - and I hope that karoaper will present some data and/or explanation to support his hypothesis. A hypothesis, not supported with data and/or explanation is of little use.

As I have said earlier, if you lack the required intellectual capabilities, then you should stay among your mental peers that are the jurks and turds.

Siamanto,
I believe you are being harsh on Sip...

If "calling a spade a spade" is being harsh then, in some cases, I don't mind being harsh and he couldn't have expected flowers. I chose not to make extra efforts with bullies and asses.
Was I unfair? Considering his behavior, the content of his PMs and posts - here or elsewhere - some may think that I was more than fair.

In any case, I would be the last one to complain and the first one to welcome if he proved me wrong with deeds, not claims; however, I won't be holding my breath.


P.S. LOL Almost done with my reply to your other post???

[Lucin]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

I asked myself the same question; but, I also considered the fact that, in the past, what has become present day Armenia has been ruled by the Persians.

Yes, Armenia has been ruled by Persians in the past and certainly influenced to a degree. But not everything can be attributed to the Persian influence. As for 'Seroj', being a diminutive of Seriozha ( as Karoaper said), it seems logical to me; and so the Iranification would be refuted.

As I have said earlier, if you lack the required intellectual capabilities, then you should stay among your mental peers that are the jurks and turds.

Siamanto,
I believe you are being harsh on Sip...

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

Seroj is from the Russian Seriozha, which is a diminutive of Sergey, as is Serj.

Thanks for the input. Can you please provide some data or explanation to support the above? I did not find any.
Also, how about a more moderate and cautious "can be" instead of the categorical "is?"

Interesting... 'Seroj' is a common name among Iranian-Armenians; I wonder if it is used by Russian-Armenians as well?

I asked myself the same question; but, I also considered the fact that, in the past, what has become present day Armenia has been ruled by the Persians.

[Lucin]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

Seroj is from the Russian Seriozha, which is a diminutive of Sergey, as is Serj.

Interesting... 'Seroj' is a common name among Iranian-Armenians; I wonder if it is used by Russian-Armenians as well?

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

First off I appreciate your effort, though I find it hard to chew on.

You're welcome! That's because you did not cook it with your own sauce.

I'm more confused than ever!

It's always darkest before the dawn???

However, your rhetoric regarding the connotation in Hebrew is rather amusing! "Behold the son!" I pretty much like it.. I knew it has something big to it otherwise why name me Roupen?! (haunts me, as remains permanently

For the record, it's not "my rhetoric;" every other source that I have checked suggests the "same." It would take you at most 2-3 minutes to google "ruben first name meaning" and check the first link of the resultset - and maybe a couple of the suggested link on that page???

By the way I can hardly think of a better method.. I provide you with a name, you do your magic! as long as we're getting results, it's all about collaboration isn't it?!

LOL No problem, I can think of one!
By the way, is this the kind of collaboration where one cuts the onions and the other cries as a sign of sympathy?

Data entry: VRAM (my brother's name)
Hints: Vram Shabouh
Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa just kidding mate! I'll do my research and get back to you...

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