Etymology of Armenian First Names

[Lucin]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

LOL So making "Siamanto" an Armenian First Name would be your contribution to the "preservation" of the Armenian Culture???

No, no Armenian MALE first name ( LOL)… in case you did not get it; I was just joking about it, in my previous post.

Shouldn't you start with those that are "real" Armenian First Names in the list above?? Many of them exist in Shirak's dictionary, I will come back to it once I receive the other two dictionaries.

Which were not real, except for probably Arbi or Arabo??

In any case, that raises the question: What should a dictionary of (Armenian) First Names include?

I'll try to give my own reasoning, below :

1- Of course, it should include the First Names

Yes.

2- It should include the diminutives such Hagopig, Aramig etc.

The diminutives, such as Hakopik or Aramik should come as complements for Hakop or Aram, for instance; Hakop: 'an explanation for the name Hakop' + there exists also Hakopik…

3- It should include "derivatives" such as "Sako," "Artin" that are not First Names; usually, the official name is "Sarkis," "Harout/Haroutioun" etc.

However, the derivatives, contrary to the diminutives, have usually been so "corrupted" and changed that probably could be considered as new names??? Since today they are being used independently.

However, should it include
4- Nicknames - i.e. pen names, war names etc. - that are not derived from First Names and are not widely enough used?

Widely used or rarely used, is not a good criterion to start with- whether to include or exclude a name;
First of all, today I'd rather consider names such as Raffi or Siamanto, Armenian first names, although formerly pen names. Second of all, it is not possible to exclude some Armenian names, just because they are not widely used.

5- Should it include "creative" First Names even if they are/refer to Armenian locations or other symbols i.e. "Nakhitchevan," "Giligia?"

The root of these names is simply Armenian- although not widely spread, unfortunately- but why not include names such as Urfa, Van, or Malatya … but instead include Bakhchangyul in the list???

6- Foreign First Names that are - or were used - used in a particular community reflecting a foreign influence such as "Jean-Claude," "Vladimir" or "Arbi" - I'm not sure if "Arbi" falls in this category but all Arbis that I have met are born in Armenian families from Iran???

In my opinion, no, they should not be included. There are names such as Vladimir, Jean-Claude, Michel, Patrick, etc about which you have no doubt that they are Russian, French or Irish as they are being widely used by these people. So why make these widespread clearly foreign names, Armenian??
But I would not claim the same for Arbi, for two reasons: 1.'We' don't know its exact origin 2. Arbi is not common among non-Armenians.

7- Isolated cases such as "Hasan" - in "Melik Hasan." (Is this a special case of 6?)

It might be a special case of 6, but as I stated before, these Islamo-Turkic craps (here 7 gets separated from 6) should be wiped out of our consciousness. Not only they are not good reminders but also they have got nothing to do with Our Culture. (And interestingly, the Islamic craps such as Hasan, Hussein, Javad, Abbas or Abdul- listed as "Armenian" First Names- which are sometimes being used in Iran as first names, nowadays pass as ugly, backward, old-fashioned and pretty naff names, even in Iran.)

Personally, I simply raised a question when I said - and I think that it's too early to make any assumptions:
"The question is: Is "Raffig" the same as "Rafig/Rafik?" Even if not, are "Raffi" and "Rafig/Rafik" etymologically related?"

And when explaining why the question should be raised, I added - among other reasons:
"2- I don't remember seeing "Raffig/Raffik" in any of the lists, only "Rafig/Rafik/Rapig/Rafik" - which makes it even more confusing???"

My question is; does Raffik(with two ff ) exist at all??? I didn't see Raffik in any of the lists either, just as you had said earlier.

Similar lexical transformations are so common in natural languages and seldom have a semantic or other significance. I would be more careful.
1. Consider the Italian "Raffaele" and the Spanish "Rafael."
2. According to Shirak's dictionary it is "Ռաֆֆի" but the poet used 'Ր' instead of 'Ռ'

There seems to be holes in this Shirak's dictionary??
Some 'lexical' transformations do have semantic significance; my emphasis here is more on "Ռ " and "Ր" and in Armenian language. Take for example բեռ( load) and բեր( bring); the commutation of these two consonnats ( or others) could lead to new words with new meanings. The same could go for "Ռաֆիկ" and "Րաֆֆի"...

Not so fast. Unfortunately, it does not explains it, for the following reasons:
1- Those who are named "Raffi" are often called "Raffig" or "Rafig" therefore they are somehow related.

Ռաֆիկ yes, but we are not sure yet if Րաֆֆիկ exists also or not.

2- As I have already mentioned, Shirak's dictionary relates "Rafig" to both "Raffi" and "Rafael." Furthermore, in the entry for "Raffi," it says "Also, Rafi."
3- As mentioned above, according to Shirak's dictionary it is "Ռաֆֆի" but the poet used 'Ր' instead of 'Ռ'

Weird… but I'd like to verify it with some other sources, and I'd be glad if you check them out, once you receive the other two dictionaries.( To check also, whether "Siamanto" is included or not.)

One last detail, it says - in the Armenian section of the dictionary - "Raffi anoun@ g@ kordzadzen arti Barsignern al." Is that true?

No way. Again weird…

Also, according to "Rafiq/Rafik"means friend in Arabic; but I'm inclined to think that it is not related to the Armenian "Rafig/Rafik" that is probably a diminutive

It may not be as simple as that!

I don't think so either. Anyway, you can relate any word to another word in some other languages.

By the way, I felt the same about "Arabo" and "Seroj" - "Seroj" sounds like an iranification of "Serj???"

Why?? Seroj??? How so?? I don't think of it as an iranification but probably a derivative of Serj, just like Sarkis/ Sako??

Also, all the Arbis that I've met were born in Armenian families from Iran.

I didn't know that, actually I hadn't noticed it.

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

LOL, I will send them an e-mail and ask to add Siamanto to their "males' first names" list.


Names that I have in mind right now, such as Arbi/ Arin/ Ari/ Artin/ Arabo/ Artuyt/ Aren/ Dvin/ Sipan/ Sevada/ Sarmen/ Miro/ Njdeh/ Seroj/ Sako/ Sebouh/ Tsaghkush (Ծաղկուշ)... were not included.

LOL So making "Siamanto" an Armenian First Name would be your contribution to the "preservation" of the Armenian Culture???
Shouldn't you start with those that are "real" Armenian First Names in the list above?? Many of them exist in Shirak's dictionary, I will come back to it once I receive the other two dictionaries.

In any case, that raises the question: What should a dictionary of (Armenian) First Names include?
1- Of course, it should include the First Names
2- It should include the diminutives such Hagopig, Aramig etc.
3- It should include "derivatives" such as "Sako," "Artin" that are not First Names; usually, the official name is "Sarkis," "Harout/Haroutioun" etc.

However, should it include
4- Nicknames - i.e. pen names, war names etc. - that are not derived from First Names and are not widely enough used?
5- Should it include "creative" First Names even if they are/refer to Armenian locations or other symbols i.e. "Nakhitchevan," "Giligia?"
6- Foreign First Names that are - or were used - used in a particular community reflecting a foreign influence such as "Jean-Claude," "Vladimir" or "Arbi" - I'm not sure if "Arbi" falls in this category but all Arbis that I have met are born in Armenian families from Iran???
7- Isolated cases such as "Hasan" - in "Melik Hasan." (Is this a special case of 6?)
8- .....

Why do we assume that there exists Raffik as well as Rafik?? Let me just make a clarification:
I believe, there only exists Rafik- not Raffik- and Rafik cannot be the diminutive of Raffi for two reasons:

I don't know if you have assumed it when you said:

In my opinion, Raffik is a diminutive of Raffi, if so, then they should be etymologically related."

Personally, I simply raised a question when I said - and I think that it's too early to make any assumptions:
"The question is: Is "Raffig" the same as "Rafig/Rafik?" Even if not, are "Raffi" and "Rafig/Rafik" etymologically related?"

And when explaining why the question should be raised, I added - among other reasons:
"2- I don't remember seeing "Raffig/Raffik" in any of the lists, only "Rafig/Rafik/Rapig/Rafik" - which makes it even more confusing???"

I'm glad to see that you have "drilled down" into the details and we should be careful in drawing conclusions. We are progressing.
For now, we're simply brainstorming and, hopefully, it won't be fruitless.

1. Rafik has one 'f' unlike Raffi, which has two.

2. More importantly, as you know, the letter R is pronounced in two different ways in Armenian, in reality two different letters- Ռ and Ր- as it is said Րաֆֆի but Ռաֆիկ.

Similar lexical transformations are so common in natural languages and seldom have a semantic or other significance. I would be more careful.
1. Consider the Italian "Raffaele" and the Spanish "Rafael."
2. According to Shirak's dictionary it is "Ռաֆֆի" but the poet used 'Ր' instead of 'Ռ'

I think this pretty much explains why the site tends to relate, etymologically, Rafik (Ռաֆիկ) to Rafael (Ռաֆաէլ) rather than to Raffi (Րաֆֆի) and rightfully, does not include Raffik at all as a name.

Not so fast. Unfortunately, it does not explains it, for the following reasons:
1- Those who are named "Raffi" are often called "Raffig" or "Rafig" therefore they are somehow related.
2- As I have already mentioned, Shirak's dictionary relates "Rafig" to both "Raffi" and "Rafael." Furthermore, in the entry for "Raffi," it says "Also, Rafi."
3- As mentioned above, according to Shirak's dictionary it is "Ռաֆֆի" but the poet used 'Ր' instead of 'Ռ'

One last detail, it says - in the Armenian section of the dictionary - "Raffi anoun@ g@ kordzadzen arti Barsignern al." Is that true?

Also, according to "Rafiq/Rafik"means friend in Arabic; but I'm inclined to think that it is not related to the Armenian "Rafig/Rafik" that is probably a diminutive

It may not be as simple as that!

On these lists of Armenian names, I noticed some ridiculous first names such as Rashid, Bakhchangyul, Abbas, Dadash, Ghaplan, Hajibab, Jahan, Jalal, Jamal, Javad, Aghgyul etc., I don't know if they are still being used or not but these names (of whatever non-Armenian origin) should be wiped out of Armenian consciousness, for some clear reason.

I see what you mean, that's exactly why I raised the issue of specifying inclusion/exclusion criteria in a dictionary of Armenian First Names. How inclusive/exclusive should it be? It's not that simple or obvious.
By the way, I felt the same about "Arabo" and "Seroj" - "Seroj" sounds like an iranification of "Serj???"
Also, all the Arbis that I've met were born in Armenian families from Iran.

Ps: I also wanted to make a small list of some common Armenian names of Persian origin but it seems unnecessary since some sites provide such information.

I agree, do it when necessary. I'm sure that you have other obligations and interests in life.

[Lucin]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

Yes, however, the fact that we can't find a single reliable site that includes "Siamanto" and reliable sites include both "Raffi" and "Barouyr" is a relevant piece of information.

LOL, I will send them an e-mail and ask to add Siamanto to their "males' first names" list.

What are the "many famous and common Armenian names, which are not included in" http://armenian.name? Thanks.

Names that I have in mind right now, such as Arbi/ Arin/ Ari/ Artin/ Arabo/ Artuyt/ Aren/ Dvin/ Sipan/ Sevada/ Sarmen/ Miro/ Njdeh/ Seroj/ Sako/ Sebouh/ Tsaghkush (Ծաղկուշ)... were not included.

You're welcome. http://armenian.name would be my first choice. Maybe even of higher quality than Narek's dictionary???

I must agree, this has been by far the most informative site.

Yes, "Raffik" is probably the diminutive of "Raffi," but the question was: "Is 'Raffik' the same as 'Rafik'?"
In other words, "Is 'Rafik' - not 'Raffik' - a diminutive of 'Raffi'?" One would be inclined to think so but, apparently, not so obvious.
I raised the question because of the following:

page 1 of 1
1. RAFAEL(Rapael) - From Hebrew name Rafael (rfa "cure" and el "god" which appeared under the impression of religious literature in VII c. The European form of this name (Rafael) is more common. The short form is Rap fro… 0.3 KB
2. RAFFI -From Arabian name Rafi "proud", "outstanding". It was the nickname of great Arm novelist.
3. RAFIK - Is the diminutive form of the name Rafael that is used independently. It appeared when the name Rapaelyan gave place to Rafael.

(From http://armenian.name/index.php?a=list&d=1&t=dict&w1=R)

As one can tell, "Rafael/Rapael" and "Raffi" seem to have different origins????

However, Shirak's dictionary of Armenian First Names says:

A bit confusing because Rafael and Raffi are presented as having different origins???

I would also add
1- "Rapig" - likely the diminutive of "Rapael???" - also existed.
2- I don't remember seeing "Raffig/Raffik" in any of the lists, only "Rafig/Rafik/Rapig/Rafik" - which makes it even more confusing???

Why do we assume that there exists Raffik as well as Rafik?? Let me just make a clarification:
I believe, there only exists Rafik- not Raffik- and Rafik cannot be the diminutive of Raffi for two reasons:

1. Rafik has one 'f' unlike Raffi, which has two.

2. More importantly, as you know, the letter R is pronounced in two different ways in Armenian, in reality two different letters- Ռ and Ր- as it is said Րաֆֆի but Ռաֆիկ.

I think this pretty much explains why the site tends to relate, etymologically, Rafik (Ռաֆիկ) to Rafael (Ռաֆաէլ) rather than to Raffi (Րաֆֆի) and rightfully, does not include Raffik at all as a name.


On these lists of Armenian names, I noticed some ridiculous first names such as Rashid, Bakhchangyul, Abbas, Dadash, Ghaplan, Hajibab, Jahan, Jalal, Jamal, Javad, Aghgyul etc., I don't know if they are still being used or not but these names (of whatever non-Armenian origin) should be wiped out of Armenian consciousness, for some clear reason.



Ps: I also wanted to make a small list of some common Armenian names of Persian origin but it seems unnecessary since some sites provide such information.

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

http://armenian.name would be my first choice. Maybe even of higher quality than Narek's dictionary???

I meant "Shirak's dictionary." I apologize for the confusion.

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

I agree. But his given information turns out to be true.

I would call it an opinion; a reference to an Armenian "personality" - like Barouyr I - would be an information.
Also, we all express opinions that some turn out to be true; it was also my opinion. An opinion is not etymological data.

Obviously, the sites are constantly updating their list, so they might include Siamanto as well??

Yes, however, the fact that we can't find a single reliable site that includes "Siamanto" and reliable sites include both "Raffi" and "Barouyr" is a relevant piece of information.

By the way, today, I received Shirak's dictionary of Armenian First Names and LOL "Siamanto" is not included in the 100 pages long list.

Also, surprisingly, there are many famous and common Armenian names, which are not included in these sites. Weird…

What are the "many famous and common Armenian names, which are not included in" http://armenian.name? Thanks.

Thanks for the interesting sites; I'll spend some more time within.

You're welcome. http://armenian.name would be my first choice. Maybe even of higher quality than Narek's dictionary???

Indeed, that's a shame, I didn't know either. Actually, my knowledge of Our History is very limited and maybe mediocre. (A while ago, I met this guy named 'Mleh' who told me that his name is an old Armenian name, later I found out Mleh was prince of the Armenian kingdom of Cilicia.)

If you think that your case is unique than you are, unfortunately, mistaken; the lack of knowledge - in the Diaspora - of our History, Literature, Philosophy etc. is obvious. I may be wrong, but I think that Armenians form Iran fair better than the rest - I am not including in the "Diaspora" those who have migrated from Soviet or Current Armenia because they've been away for only a short while.

Haroutik, Levonik, or Hagopik are not common here but Aramik is.

Really surprised. Thanks for the information.

Also, the name Arutin which is quite common, could be another version of Harutiun, Harut.

There's also "Artin." Yes, they all degenerated forms of "Haroutioun." That's probably why it's common to consider "Arthur" as a correspondent of "Haroutioun."

In my opinion, Raffik is a diminutive of Raffi, if so, then they should be etymologically related.

Yes, "Raffik" is probably the diminutive of "Raffi," but the question was: "Is 'Raffik' the same as 'Rafik'?"
In other words, "Is 'Rafik' - not 'Raffik' - a diminutive of 'Raffi'?" One would be inclined to think so but, apparently, not so obvious.
I raised the question because of the following:

page 1 of 1
1. RAFAEL(Rapael) - From Hebrew name Rafael (rfa "cure" and el "god" which appeared under the impression of religious literature in VII c. The European form of this name (Rafael) is more common. The short form is Rap fro… 0.3 KB
2. RAFFI - From Arabian name Rafi "proud", "outstanding". It was the nickname of great Arm novelist.
3. RAFIK - Is the diminutive form of the name Rafael that is used independently. It appeared when the name Rapaelyan gave place to Rafael.

(From http://armenian.name/index.php?a=list&d=1&t=dict&w1=R)

As one can tell, "Rafael/Rapael" and "Raffi" seem to have different origins????

However, Shirak's dictionary of Armenian First Names says:

Rafael - healed by god (Hebrew)
Raffi - 1. exalter 2. Flash of lighting 3. glorious man (Arabic) Also: Rafi
Rafig - diminutive of Raffi or Rafael

A bit confusing because Rafael and Raffi are presented as having different origins???

I would also add
1- "Rapig" - likely the diminutive of "Rapael???" - also existed.
2- I don't remember seeing "Raffig/Raffik" in any of the lists, only "Rafig/Rafik/Rapig/Rafik" - which makes it even more confusing???

[Lucin]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

First of all, we probably both know that all sources would be credible only to a certain degree; so the question is "How credible a bit of data or source is?" We can only base it on common sense and some rules - or a hierarchy of rules - such as:

Rule 1: Any data or source that is not public domain - known book, Web site etc. - is less credible. In general, it should be verifiable

Rule 2: We can only take into consideration "reliable" sources - i.e. that cannot be altered by just anybody and are known sites/sources.

I agree. But his given information turns out to be true.

As for me, I have spent some time compiling a list of sites that include a list of Armenian First Names; the list (of sites) below includes the ones that seemed the most comprehensive and "reliable" - i.e. can't be tempered with and/or was not created yesterday. The most comprehensive and informative - because it includes the most detailed explanation and/or "etymology??" - seems to be http://armenian.name/

Also, I have found that the only??? - to be checked - site that includes "Siamanto" as a First Name - i.e. http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.ph...ian_Male_Names - can be altered by anyone. Also, it says: "Raffi - not used by Armenians until a widely popular author chose it as his pen name."
A coincidence???

Obviously, the sites are constantly updating their list, so they might include Siamanto as well?? Also, surprisingly, there are many famous and common Armenian names, which are not included in these sites. Weird…

Here is the list:

http://armenian.name/index.php?a=list&d=1&t=dict&w1=R

http://www.hyeetch.nareg.com.au/armenians/names_p1.html

http://feefhs.org/am/am-male.html

http://www.armenianteens.com/babynames/baby_boy_names.php

http://www.babynology.com/armenian_babynames.html

http://www.gaminggeeks.org/Resources/KateMonk/Former-Soviet-Union/Europe_Caucasus/Armenia.htm

http://www.welcometoarmenia.com/Names.htm#Boys

http://www.netarmenie.com/religion/annexes/prenom2.php

Thanks for the interesting sites; I'll spend some more time within.

1- According to http://www.netarmenie.com/religion/annexes/prenom2.php "Barouyr/Paruyr" is "the '1st' crowned king of Armenia?" In any case, an Armenian king.
Confirmed by http://kingsofarmenia.com/history_1.htm

LOL I don't about you, but I feel really ashamed. We did not know that???

Indeed, that's a shame, I didn't know either. Actually, my knowledge of Our History is very limited and maybe mediocre. (A while ago, I met this guy named 'Mleh' who told me that his name is an old Armenian name, later I found out Mleh was prince of the Armenian kingdom of Cilicia.)

2- "Raffi" is popular among Armenians - at least, some communities, I may be wrong, but I don't remember Western Armenians calling a Raffi "Raffig" - as it seems to be common among Armenians from Iran???

True, Raffik is common among Iranian-Armenians, as well as Vahik/Vahe, Levik/Levon…

However, calling Harout/Haroutig, Hagop/Hagopig, Levon/Levonig
Aram/Aramig etc. etc. is common.

Haroutik, Levonik, or Hagopik are not common here but Aramik is.
Also, the name Arutin which is quite common, could be another version of Harutiun, Harut.

The question is: Is "Raffig" the same as "Rafig/Rafik?" Even if not, are "Raffi" and "Rafig/Rafik" etymologically related?

In my opinion, Raffik is a diminutive of Raffi, if so, then they should be etymologically related.

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

LOL What? "Raffi" and "Barouyr" were not already Armenian First Names??? Does the analogy apply to "Siamanto?"

Were they??

1- According to http://www.netarmenie.com/religion/annexes/prenom2.php "Barouyr/Paruyr" is "the '1st' crowned king of Armenia?" In any case, an Armenian king.
Confirmed by http://kingsofarmenia.com/history_1.htm

LOL I don't about you, but I feel really ashamed. We did not know that???



2- "Raffi" is popular among Armenians - at least, some communities, I may be wrong, but I don't remember Western Armenians calling a Raffi "Raffig" - as it seems to be common among Armenians from Iran??? However, calling Harout/Haroutig, Hagop/Hagopig, Levon/Levonig Aram/Aramig etc. etc. is common.
The question is: Is "Raffig" the same as "Rafig/Rafik?" Even if not, are "Raffi" and "Rafig/Rafik" etymologically related?

[Siamanto]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

I don't know how much credible it'd be for you but my source was an Armenian literature professor.

I have a list of some Armenian names of Iranian origin that I'll post later.

First of all, we probably both know that all sources would be credible only to a certain degree; so the question is "How credible a bit of data or source is?" We can only base it on common sense and some rules - or a hierarchy of rules - such as:

Rule 1: Any data or source that is not public domain - known book, Web site etc. - is less credible. In general, it should be verifiable


As for me, I have spent some time compiling a list of sites that include a list of Armenian First Names; the list (of sites) below includes the ones that seemed the most comprehensive and "reliable" - i.e. can't be tempered with and/or was not created yesterday. The most comprehensive and informative - because it includes the most detailed explanation and/or "etymology??" - seems to be http://armenian.name/

Also, I have found that the only??? - to be checked - site that includes "Siamanto" as a First Name - i.e. http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.ph...ian_Male_Names - can be altered by anyone. Also, it says: "Raffi - not used by Armenians until a widely popular author chose it as his pen name."
A coincidence???

Rule 2: We can only take into consideration "reliable" sources - i.e. that cannot be altered by just anybody and are known sites/sources.


Here is the list:

http://armenian.name/index.php?a=list&d=1&t=dict&w1=R

http://www.hyeetch.nareg.com.au/armenians/names_p1.html

http://feefhs.org/am/am-male.html

http://www.armenianteens.com/babynames/baby_boy_names.php

http://www.babynology.com/armenian_babynames.html

http://www.gaminggeeks.org/Resources/KateMonk/Former-Soviet-Union/Europe_Caucasus/Armenia.htm

http://www.welcometoarmenia.com/Names.htm#Boys

http://www.netarmenie.com/religion/annexes/prenom2.php

Also, I found a couple of books - I will order them because they can always be useful????

http://www.narek.com/store/product.php?productid=16437&cat=323&bestseller

http://www.amazon.com/Armenian-First-Names-Nicholas-Hippocrene/dp/0781807506

http://www.acam-france.org/bibliographie/auteur.php?cle=ekmekdjian-monique

[Lucin]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

What were you told i.e. what evidence, data?
Let's admit our lack of sufficient knowledge/data on the subject and look for decisive and etymological data.

I don't know how much credible it'd be for you but my source was an Armenian literature professor.

I have a list of some Armenian names of Iranian origin that I'll post later.

[Sip]

Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names

It would be cool to research the name "Siamanto" also to see if it is in fact a name typically given to males, or if it is also used at times to refer to females. I seem to remember this having also caused some confusion in the conversation which you are referring to.