To set the record straight.

[Artashes]

Re: To set the record straight.

Even according to the records of the Armenian Church in Cilicia there were only 2.2 million Armenians in Ottoman territories in 1914. Therefore Bell in right. The total number of Armenians in the world likely didn't add up to 4.5 million.

The records of the Armenian church, and how they arrived at those numbers were scrutinized at the time of their introduction and found to be woefully inaccurate. They fell far short of the obvious number of Armenians existing at said time.
The church was an easy target for turk pressure plus their criteria used left out recognition of huge numbers.
Not even half the population.
These are well known contentions of the day and obvious in their legitimacy.
All well documented.
Simple search for contention on how bs figure being touted today came to pass.
This small Armenian number helps to prove inaccuracies of Armenian claims which is good for turks which is why (obviously) turk govt at the time as well as today push small number and -- obfuscate -- the truth.
It is -- blatant -- that any honest and well managed endeavor to -- accurately -- determine Armenian population of the time would have needed to increase criteria being used to see true Armenian population figures.
Artashes

[Sip]

Re: To set the record straight.

Hmmm ... this is strange because according to my estimates, the number of Armenians that were killed in the Genocide was closer to 14 million.

[Artashes]

Re: To set the record straight.

My memory is starting to come back some.
Both you and Bell are in agreement , 4.5 million Armenians is too great a number.
All my politicly non motivated sources shows literally at minimum 2 - 3 million more, easily.
Will look for the --- wide --- discrepincy.
But, my memory is telling me the "contest" for the -- final -- DEATH toll was a well known(highly well known) -- contest -- fought with politicle bs and posturing.
From that well known(world academia associated at that time) contest was --- I think where I'm getting my info , will research (sadness) again.
Artashes

Even a quick closer look shows the large disparity.
If you look closer at the count that is given today and ask --- what "formula" was used to arrive at that figure (census - Arm), and then --- ask --- was this formula and statistics accurate --- ?
Here is what I'm seeing ---
---- closer study of ottoman census numbers --- as one (1) example --- from 1894 - 1905, shows values of turkish motives (and) not true values.
It -- is -- a well known fact that Armenians purposely undercounted, especially in times of increased barbarity.
It is also well known that Armwnians were -- forced -- to overstate turk pop., while understate Armenian population.
Also, many Armenians "slipped under the wire" by claiming to be Muslim. Look to sudden dramatic increases of Muslim pop., as discrimination and threat of brutality increase. That "sudden" increase is both stark and dramatic.
The total figure fore"auttoman" easily can be twice your figure.
Are you both telling me you (a) never heard of these accusations as to the woeful undercounting
Or
(b) you don't believe they have merit ?
We were and are the indigenous people, there were actually a great many of us.
They as well as others have been murdering us for many centuries.
Artashes

[Artashes]

Re: To set the record straight.

Even according to the records of the Armenian Church in Cilicia there were only 2.2 million Armenians in Ottoman territories in 1914. Therefore Bell in right. The total number of Armenians in the world likely didn't add up to 4.5 million.

My memory is starting to come back some.
Both you and Bell are in agreement , 4.5 million Armenians is too great a number.
All my politicly non motivated sources shows literally at minimum 2 - 3 million more, easily.
Will look for the --- wide --- discrepincy.
But, my memory is telling me the "contest" for the -- final -- DEATH toll was a well known(highly well known) -- contest -- fought with politicle bs and posturing.
From that well known(world academia associated at that time) contest was --- I think where I'm getting my info , will research (sadness) again.
Artashes

[Artashes]

Re: To set the record straight.

I'm saying that a lot of Armenians talk about being knowledgable on Armenian history while seemingly bypassing the time consuming requirement of actually researching into it. You cannot make claims like "4.5 million died" (if that is what you mean by "three times that number") without giving ANY justification or reasoning and then expect to be taken seriously. Don't you know that 4.5 million is far more than the total 1914 Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire and Russian Transcaucasia combined!

I'd say that the most correct figure IS going to be in the range of 1.4 to 1.6 million, with maybe 1.8 million as the extreme top end (if those who died in the post-WW1 massacres in Cilicia are included, as well as those killed in what was to become Soviet Armenia and Azerbaijan). Beyond the obvious Turkish propaganda, the only "political" manipulations I see are the sometimes removal of the post-WW1 deaths in Cilicia from the total as well as the deaths in what would become Azerbaijan. It is arguable whether those who died in Armenia as a result of starvation or disease in the aftermath of WW1 should be included - I'd say that yes they should be, given that most of those dead had fled their homes to escape the genocidal massacres and so would not have died from disease or starvation if there had been no massacres.

Well written response in my opine.
Thanks for the lack --- rudeness.
As I read it, your first complaint --- I by pass "time consuming research ---
Bell, in all honestly , it is me that read all those freaking horror stories and statistics..... Ad Nosium.
It is true the things I have researched (and been told by family members) has caused -------------------------------------- HATRED ----------------
I am actually (most regrettably) not "making this up. Wish I was.
I need to add up the two figures -- (Cilicia ,post WW1 + "died of starvation & disease after WW1 in Armenia)
Am attempting to get(read) -- The jihad rampant in Persia -- by Rev. Robert M Labree --
Reporting from Tabriz, 1915.
Do you count that?
Do you count --- ALL --- those who were sold, traded, given, or somehow suddenly found themselves --- without their entire family and they were now another -- nationality? Family? Slave?
My modest study showed me the "rigors" required by the contesting paties --(truth vs. lies) left -- OUT -- vast numbers of "accurate but not verifiable" murders because of --- undue --- consideration.
Also I do disagree with 4.5 million Armenians --- as --- greater than total Armenian pop.
Will address that in next day or two , to see where discrepincy in figures is occurring.
Bottom line is all my studies showed clearly an --- extreme --- undercounting by disallowing ligitimate statistics on MURDER because of politicle reasons.
If the numbers are on hand I'd appreciate it.
Artashes

[Mher]

Re: To set the record straight.

Even according to the records of the Armenian Church in Cilicia there were only 2.2 million Armenians in Ottoman territories in 1914. Therefore Bell in right. The total number of Armenians in the world likely didn't add up to 4.5 million.

[Artashes]

Re: To set the record straight.

I'm saying that a lot of Armenians talk about being knowledgable on Armenian history while seemingly bypassing the time consuming requirement of actually researching into it. You cannot make claims like "4.5 million died" (if that is what you mean by "three times that number") without giving ANY justification or reasoning and then expect to be taken seriously. Don't you know that 4.5 million is far more than the total 1914 Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire and Russian Transcaucasia combined!

I'd say that the most correct figure IS going to be in the range of 1.4 to 1.6 million, with maybe 1.8 million as the extreme top end (if those who died in the post-WW1 massacres in Cilicia are included, as well as those killed in what was to become Soviet Armenia and Azerbaijan). Beyond the obvious Turkish propaganda, the only "political" manipulations I see are the sometimes removal of the post-WW1 deaths in Cilicia from the total as well as the deaths in what would become Azerbaijan. It is arguable whether those who died in Armenia as a result of starvation or disease in the aftermath of WW1 should be included - I'd say that yes they should be, given that most of those dead had fled their homes to escape the genocidal massacres and so would not have died from disease or starvation if there had been no massacres.

Well written response in my opine.
Thanks for the lack --- rudeness.
As I read it, your first complaint --- I by pass "time consuming research ---
Bell, in all honestly , it is me that read all those freaking horror stories and statistics..... Ad Nosium.
It is true the things I have researched (and been told by family members) has caused -------------------------------------- HATRED ----------------
I am actually (most regrettably) not "making this up. Wish I was.
I need to add up the two figures -- (Cilicia ,post WW1 + "died of starvation & disease after WW1 in Armenia)
Am attempting to get(read) -- The jihad rampant in Persia -- by Rev. Robert M Labree --
Reporting from Tabriz, 1915.
Do you count that?
Do you count --- ALL --- those who were sold, traded, given, or somehow suddenly found themselves --- without their entire family and they were now another -- nationality? Family? Slave?
My modest study showed me the "rigors" required by the contesting paties --(truth vs. lies) left -- OUT -- vast numbers of "accurate but not verifiable" murders because of --- undue --- consideration.
Also I do disagree with 4.5 million Armenians --- as --- greater than total Armenian pop.
Will address that in next day or two , to see where discrepincy in figures is occurring.
Bottom line is all my studies showed clearly an --- extreme --- undercounting by disallowing ligitimate statistics on MURDER because of politicle reasons.
If the numbers are on hand I'd appreciate it.
Artashes

[bell-the-cat]

Re: To set the record straight.

Bell, cannot tell by your sentence if you are contesting my statement or agreeing with it?
Might you clarify?
Are you saying 1.5 million is murdered is about right or greatly reduced for politicle reasons?
Artashes

I'm saying that a lot of Armenians talk about being knowledgable on Armenian history while seemingly bypassing the time consuming requirement of actually researching into it. You cannot make claims like "4.5 million died" (if that is what you mean by "three times that number") without giving ANY justification or reasoning and then expect to be taken seriously. Don't you know that 4.5 million is far more than the total 1914 Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire and Russian Transcaucasia combined!

I'd say that the most correct figure IS going to be in the range of 1.4 to 1.6 million, with maybe 1.8 million as the extreme top end (if those who died in the post-WW1 massacres in Cilicia are included, as well as those killed in what was to become Soviet Armenia and Azerbaijan). Beyond the obvious Turkish propaganda, the only "political" manipulations I see are the sometimes removal of the post-WW1 deaths in Cilicia from the total as well as the deaths in what would become Azerbaijan. It is arguable whether those who died in Armenia as a result of starvation or disease in the aftermath of WW1 should be included - I'd say that yes they should be, given that most of those dead had fled their homes to escape the genocidal massacres and so would not have died from disease or starvation if there had been no massacres.

[Artashes]

Re: To set the record straight.

The above is a timely reminder that one should never assume that what Armenians say about the Armenian Genocide is accurate.

Bell, cannot tell by your sentence if you are contesting my statement or agreeing with it?
Might you clarify?
Are you saying 1.5 million is murdered is about right or greatly reduced for politicle reasons?
Artashes

[bell-the-cat]

Re: To set the record straight.

The above is a timely reminder that one should never assume that what Armenians say about the Armenian Genocide is accurate.