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Israeli Attack on Lebanon

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  • #21
    A little bit older article, but again shows Armenian solidarity with Lebanon...

    YEREVAN, AUGUST 15, NOYAN TAPAN. The members of the World Committee of Armenian Supporters of Lebanese Resistance are appealing to all the Armenians not to consider the ongoing actions in Lebanon as one religious community's struggle for existence and to raise their voices against the war in Lebanon.

    According to a press release issued by this organization, the war was instigated by Israel and the US with the aim of "stifling Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria and Iran and create a new Middle East under their control."

    Vahagn Vardanian, representative of the committee, expressed an opinion during a press conference on August 15 that if the Lebanese resistance (in the person of Hezbollah) is broken, the war will take the character of a regional war, with other states, particularly Iran, being involved in this conflict. In his words, this circumstance poses a threat to Armenia, "in particular, to the liberated regions of Artsakh where an attempt is already being made to deploy foreign troops in order to use them against Iran in the future." He compared the Armenian-Azerbaijani and the Lebanese-Israeli conflicts, noting that if Israel were replaced with Azerbaijan, Lebanon - with Armenia, South Lebanon - with Karabakh and Hezbollah - with fidayi, we would have the initial stage of the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict."

    Political scientist Igor Muradian (he is not a member of the committee) said during the press conference that this war is going on by the silent consent of the Arab world. "Israel's aim is to disarm Hezbullah, which is qualified as a terrorist organization by Israel and its allies. Yet, this organization was established in order to liberate the Lebanese territories captured by the Israeli army," he said.

    It was mentioned that 80% of bridges and roads linking Lebanon's five provinces have been destroyed, the country's ports are not functioning, and more than 80 Lebanese Armenians have fled to Armenia.
    [url]http://www.ArmenianAncestry.com[/url] - [COLOR="Red"]Armenian[/COLOR] [COLOR="Blue"]Genealogy[/COLOR] [COLOR="Orange"]Forum[/COLOR]

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    • #22
      Originally posted by Gondorian
      Since you are anti-Israel why should you care?



      No it isn't, it was a war waged on Hezbollah and Lebanon against Israel where Israel responded the way any European Nation would have done, and significantly better then what China is doing to Tibet which I have never seen you complain about. Everyone lost during this war.
      Gondo,
      Don't you mean "it was a war waged BY Hezbollah and Lebanon against Israel"? (I think thats what you were trying to say). I don't think Israels response is how "any European nation would have done"...

      I also haven't heard any reports of China destroying all roads leading into Tibet, their entire infrastructure including (but not limited to) energy, buildings and transportation, and on top of that the brutal killing of scores of innocents including (but not limited to) those fleeing the death and destruction. Now, if China is doing this in Tibet, can you please send me some news on their military offensive there, I would be interested in reading it.


      Originally posted by Gondorian
      Considering Turkey took the side of Lebanon and Hezbollah during this conflict you are begging to give an explanation for that innacurate statement, and if you are claiming the United States and Israel are no better then Turkey then I think you have lost all perspective.
      Well, I guess I've lost all perspective (in your opinion) too. I actually think the US/Israel position is worse. The US/Israel have a greater responsibility to do whats right - unfortunately that rarely (if ever) happens, and is generally idealistic.



      Originally posted by Gondorian
      Nobody is ever forced to be an extremist it is always a choice of an individual to be evil.
      On one hand I agree that people make their own choices, and should take responsibility for them. On the other hand, I don't think that being an extremist can be equated with being evil across the board. I know of a lot of extremists that aren't evil, in the Armenian Nation as well (Monte Melkonian being a prime example). However, the matter of who is and who is not is certainly open to personal interpretation.



      Originally posted by Gondorian
      No such thing as a false God, one persons heresy is another persons true religion.
      I agree to an extent, and respect all religions. I don't consider groups like "The Branch Davidians" religions, but I do consider them "false gods" or pseudo-faiths.

      And there are plenty of individuals and scholars out there who feel that Bin Ladens Islam isn't a religion, since so much of the "faith" they practice has nothing to do with Islam (which they claim to be following)....
      [url]http://www.ArmenianAncestry.com[/url] - [COLOR="Red"]Armenian[/COLOR] [COLOR="Blue"]Genealogy[/COLOR] [COLOR="Orange"]Forum[/COLOR]

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      • #23
        [QUOTE=Hovik"it was a war waged BY Hezbollah and Lebanon against Israel"? (I think thats what you were trying to say). I don't think Israels response is how "any European nation would have done"... [/QUOTE]

        1.Yes sorry English isn't my first language but I will try harder.

        2. No European Country is a soft spot to attack, there was a lot of collateral damage during the War in Cyprus (very high), there have been a lot of innocent Afghani and Iraqi Civilians killed by European Forces who where targetting terrorists, so you can judge by the wars Europe is involved in now where we did do the same things.

        Originally posted by Hovik
        I also haven't heard any reports of China destroying all roads leading into Tibet, their entire infrastructure including (but not limited to) energy, buildings and transportation, and on top of that the brutal killing of scores of innocents including (but not limited to) those fleeing the death and destruction. Now, if China is doing this in Tibet, can you please send me some news on their military offensive there, I would be interested in reading it.
        http://www.tibet.org/Activism/Rights/chinajustice.html

        Considering the Chinese already conquered Tibet an offensive would not be especially neccessary, and destrying the enemies infrastructure during a war is not illegal.

        Originally posted by Hovik
        On one hand I agree that people make their own choices, and should take responsibility for them. On the other hand, I don't think that being an extremist can be equated with being evil across the board. I know of a lot of extremists that aren't evil, in the Armenian Nation as well (Monte Melkonian being a prime example). However, the matter of who is and who is not is certainly open to personal interpretation.
        Point well taken

        Originally posted by Hovik
        I agree to an extent, and respect all religions. I don't consider groups like "The Branch Davidians" religions, but I do consider them "false gods" or pseudo-faiths.
        I see your point.

        Originally posted by Hovik
        And there are plenty of individuals and scholars out there who feel that Bin Ladens Islam isn't a religion, since so much of the "faith" they practice has nothing to do with Islam (which they claim to be following)....
        Unfortunately Wahhabism has become too ingraved into Islam to be considered outside of it though, and there are good Wahhabis out there (I know it sounds like an oxymoron).

        Originally posted by Hovik
        Well, I guess I've lost all perspective (in your opinion) too. I actually think the US/Israel position is worse. The US/Israel have a greater responsibility to do whats right - unfortunately that rarely (if ever) happens, and is generally idealistic.
        I don't think you understand what I meant but before I explain I will say I do agree with what you said.

        However what you said you could easily say in the United States and in Israel without fear of any type of retribution, while in Turkey you would get hauled away for insulting Turkishness. So do you see what I am saying now?

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Gondorian
          1.Yes sorry English isn't my first language but I will try harder.

          2. No European Country is a soft spot to attack, there was a lot of collateral damage during the War in Cyprus (very high), there have been a lot of innocent Afghani and Iraqi Civilians killed by European Forces who where targetting terrorists, so you can judge by the wars Europe is involved in now where we did do the same things.
          Cyprus? I don't see the relationship to this conversation. Afghanistan, I would feel foolish thinking for a second that any one European state caused NEARLY the degree of damage in Afghanistan that Israel caused in Lebanon.

          As for Iraq, the US has only itself to hold responsible for the death and destruction there... (last weeks Senate panel findings reinforce that).

          I'm still waiting for you to fully compare the extent of damage done by any single EU nation in Afghan. or Iraq to what Israel did in Lebanon, please prove your case.

          Originally posted by Gondorian
          http://www.tibet.org/Activism/Rights/chinajustice.html
          Considering the Chinese already conquered Tibet an offensive would not be especially neccessary, and destrying the enemies infrastructure during a war is not illegal.
          Sorry, but are you kidding me? Your attempted comparison is a failed one in my opinion. You just stated yourself that an offensive isn't especially necessary (nor has it occurred yet (especially on the scale of what Israel has done in Lebanon)), so without a military offensive, how exactly are you trying to compare it to Israel / Lebanon?




          Originally posted by Gondorian
          I don't think you understand what I meant but before I explain I will say I do agree with what you said.

          However what you said you could easily say in the United States and in Israel without fear of any type of retribution, while in Turkey you would get hauled away for insulting Turkishness. So do you see what I am saying now?
          You're changing the subject. Freedom of speach in the US / Israel vs. Turkey is not at all what I was talking about and you know it...
          [url]http://www.ArmenianAncestry.com[/url] - [COLOR="Red"]Armenian[/COLOR] [COLOR="Blue"]Genealogy[/COLOR] [COLOR="Orange"]Forum[/COLOR]

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          • #25
            You know, gondorion, I don't want to hear any BS Orwellian doublespeak like "collateral damage."


            We are talking about the deliberate targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure, which are egregious war crimes. That is not counting the massive ecological damage done by cluster bombs, phosphorous bombs, depleted uranium and the deliberate targeting of the power plant that caused the massive oil spill in the Mediterranean. This will cause illness and death for some time to come.

            israel does not behave as a European state, israel is a TERRORIST STATE.

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by Varouj
              You know, gondorion, I don't want to hear any BS Orwellian doublespeak like "collateral damage."


              We are talking about the deliberate targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure, which are egregious war crimes. That is not counting the massive ecological damage done by cluster bombs, phosphorous bombs, depleted uranium and the deliberate targeting of the power plant that caused the massive oil spill in the Mediterranean. This will cause illness and death for some time to come.

              israel does not behave as a European state, israel is a TERRORIST STATE.
              Hello Mr.Ignorant, I have no interest in talking to you because you are simply closed minded and will believe the prejudice that your parents or whoever indoctrinated you tought you to believe, and btw your statement is total bs. I have no problem with people of an opposing opinion if I did I wouldn't be responding to Hovik the way I am, however your statement is just a round of insult ignorance and arrogance, and for an anti-semite you are a pretty good example.

              Originally posted by Hovik
              Cyprus? I don't see the relationship to this conversation.
              I consider Cyprus to be a European Nation, and the scale of Turkish Civilians killed in the war at Cyprus was much higher then the scale of Arab Civilians killed by Israelis. You might not consider Cyprus to be a European Nation, so if so may I ask you why?

              Afghanistan, I would feel foolish thinking for a second that any one European state caused NEARLY the degree of damage in Afghanistan that Israel caused in Lebanon.
              You are right we all did it together as a team to throw out the Taliban, and the damage was high enough that NATO is still repairing it all years after it happened.

              As for Iraq, the US has only itself to hold responsible for the death and destruction there... (last weeks Senate panel findings reinforce that).

              I'm still waiting for you to fully compare the extent of damage done by any single EU nation in Afghan. or Iraq to what Israel did in Lebanon, please prove your case.
              So the Al Queda Terrorists who are doing the suicide bombings have no blame? Besides there are large amounts of European Forces fighting in Iraq, my country even sent Naval Forces to help the Americans there, and the British, Italian, and Polish contributions I doubt that you are ignorant of.

              http://usinfo.state.gov/sa/rebuildin...ding_road.html

              That seems like a pretty high amount of damage wouldn't you agree Hovik? You are applying one standard that Nato can bomb strategically important roads but Israel can't.

              Originally posted by Hovik
              Sorry, but are you kidding me? Your attempted comparison is a failed one in my opinion. You just stated yourself that an offensive isn't especially necessary (nor has it occurred yet (especially on the scale of what Israel has done in Lebanon)), so without a military offensive, how exactly are you trying to compare it to Israel / Lebanon?
              There was a military offensive 50 years ago followed by an extremely brutal occupation where Tibetans are regularly taken of the street if they are suspected of supporting Tibetan Indepence to be killed, just read the website I provided, or is it you do not wish to stand up and say China's Government has an appaling record of respecting decency?

              Originally posted by Hovik
              You're changing the subject. Freedom of speach in the US / Israel vs. Turkey is not at all what I was talking about and you know it...
              If you think that the US or Israel are big time enemies of Armenia like Turkey why does Armenia itself have warm relations with both countries? Warm Relations that the Turks and Iranians are both trying to break up, and the statement of mine you responded to was

              Originally posted by Gondorian
              and if you are claiming the United States and Israel are no better then Turkey then I think you have lost all perspective.
              The United States and Israel both have a much better record on every topic (Apart from AG recognition) then Turkey does, if you are arguing otherwise you have lost perspective, and Gavur has lost perspective because he is trying to bring the Turks into the equation as being the side he opposses despite the fact that on this issue Turkey both government and people has been on his side from day one.

              Comment


              • #27
                Hello Mr.Ignorant, I have no interest in talking to you because you are simply closed minded and will believe the prejudice that your parents or whoever indoctrinated you tought you to believe, and btw your statement is total bs.
                Name calling....what a clever comeback. It really helps your case to come here spewing israeli propaganda. So you say my parents taught me to believe that israel commited war crimes? No, my eyes and ears taught me that. I can bring tons and tons of examples, but we all know you're not interested in telling the truth, just to put a spin on things which is not going to work, BTW.


                I have no problem with people of an opposing opinion if I did I wouldn't be responding to Hovik the way I am, however your statement is just a round of insult ignorance and arrogance, and for an anti-semite you are a pretty good example.
                You talk opinion, but FACTS are not subject to opinion. So you graciously condesend to respond to Hovik? How big of you seeing as this is not an israeli forum, this is an ARMENIAN forum.

                Also, spare us the BS that just because I criticize what israeli savages did to Lebanon, that makes me an anti-semite. Horse manure.

                Continue with that attitude of yours and I post everything I can find to expose the genocidal war crimes of the terrorist state of israel.

                Comment


                • #28
                  If you think that the US or Israel are big time enemies of Armenia like Turkey why does Armenia itself have warm relations with both countries? Warm Relations that the Turks and Iranians are both trying to break up, and the statement of mine you responded to was
                  There are no "warm" relations with Genocide denying israel. There are relations, but you can hardly characterize them as warm especially when they send their lousy ambassaor to come and spit in our faces with her and the israel foreign ministry's stupid AG denials.

                  Relations with US not much better. Purely done for pragmatic reasons.


                  Iran does not interfere not care who else Armenia has relations with because this friendship/relationship is indeed very warm.

                  turks....who cares about your best friends, go talk to them although they don't think very highly of your recent behavior either.

                  You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. You have created for yourselves a nightmare your attitude will never allow you to recover from. You always think you are above the laws and do whatever you want and if anyone dares to criticize, immediately you get out your dictionary of insults. Sorry, they no longer carry any weight whatsoever.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    U.S. plans airbase at Kleiaat, Lebanon

                    http://www.arabamericannews.com/news...articleid=8764


                    By: Franklin Lamb
                    2007-06-02

                    On July 14, 1982, (Bastille Day) the late Bashir Gemayel sat with Ariel Sharon, Raphael Eitan, and Danny Yalon at the French flag-draped Le Chef Restaurant in Ashrifeyih, East Beirut for one of their working lunches.

                    As was by now their habit, the Israelis were inclined to pressure their recently anointed selection for Lebanon's next president. They were there to present a request for one more favor from the handsome "golden boy" of the Phalange movement, as their army tightened its noose around West Beirut.

                    There was a good chance they would succeed. After all, Bashir was beholden to the Zionists, for their many "considerations," including the arms for drugs arrangements, the weapons skimmed from what the U.S. reflectively shipped to Israel on demand, the intelligence sharing and assassinations of Palestinians whom Bashir could not abide. The trio lunching with him that day, under the celebratory French flags in this francophone neighborhood, could easily destroy Bashir Gemayel and he knew it.

                    Yet, despite their intimidating talk, the self described "cream of the IDF'" exhibited what Bashir had often explained to his nerdy younger brother Amin, who, unexpectedly was to become his successor as President of Lebanon, and to some of his aides, a case of "congenital arrogance"that day.

                    They seriously underestimated the Palestinian-hating, Muslim-despising, would-be Phonecian Prince, le sheik Bashir. In misjudging the charismatic Maronite, the Israeli trio had failed to appreciate that, on any day of the week, the average Lebanese is rather more sophisticated, clever, decent, and patriotic than many Israeli or American politicians give them credit for. The same obtains today.

                    Sharon pulled out a piece of paper from his chest pocket, as one Phalange security person who guarded the restaurant door recalls, and shoved it across the table to Bashir. Written on it was Israel's "one last request," which contained one word: Kleiaat

                    The Israelis studied Bashir's face for a sign of his reaction as he picked up the small piece of paper. Bashir, appearing to suppress a yawn, had heard this "one last request" hustle many times and had long felt contempt for what he called "these pressure lunches." Yet, former alter boy that he was, the martyred and still much loved Lebanese patriot pressed his lips together and listened politely as is the Lebanese custom, as Sharon expounded on the details.

                    Bashir, fuming inside and about to erupt in anger as he had sometimes done previously when he felt squeezed by Sharon, instead smiled at the anxious trio. He leaned forward and whispered with a voice they still say in his Bikfayya neighborhood would make women swoon:"you will not be disappointed, my dear friends."

                    Sharon was delirious with Bashir's response and slapped him on the back, a gesture of friendship that the former parish crucifier found deeply offensive.

                    Returning to his Ashrifeyih headquarters, bounding up the stairs to his office to meet with aides, where less than two months later he would die from an assassin's bomb which would level the building and kill and wound more than 200, Bashir bellowed as he entered his office, "An Israeli air base in Lebanon? Those crazy sons of xxxxxes won't get one grain of sand from Kleiaat."

                    As residents of Bibnin Akkar, less than two miles from the site of the proposed U.S. base, and the Lebanese daily newspaper "Aldiyar" speculate, construction of a U.S. airbase on the grounds of the largely abandoned airbase at Klieaat in northern Lebanon may begin late this year. To make the project more palatable, it is being promoted as a "US/NATO" base that will serve as the headquarters of a NATO rapid deployment force, helicopter squadrons, and Special Forces units.

                    The base will provide training for the Lebanese army and security forces fighting Salafi Islamist fundamentalists and for other needs.

                    The Pentagon and NATO HQ in Belgium have given the project, which will sit along the Lebanese-Syrian border using this vast area "as a base for fast intervention troops," a name. It is to be called The Lebanese Army and Security Training Centre."

                    Kleiaat, a nearly now abandoned small airport, was used by Middle East Airlines for a period for commuter flights between Beirut and Tripoli. Residents of the area report than during the Civil War (1975-1990) a commuter helicopter service was also operated due to road closures.

                    The proposed base was measured by this observer to be roughly two and one-half miles down the beach from the Nahr al-Bared Palestinian camp. Both share pristine Mediterranean beachfront. Kleiaat is an expanse of gently undulating sandy dunes covered with long prairie grass and brush.

                    Despite opposition from Lebanon's anemic environmental movement, which argues that the pristine area should be left to its many varieties of birds and wildlife, the local community is watching closely.

                    Not much activity is going on as of May 29, 2007. About 20 quonset huts, some recently driven stakes, no evidence of heavy equipment or building material. The three man army outpost fellows appeared bored and did not even ask for ID as I toured the whole area on the back of a fine new BMW 2200cc motorcycle, courtesy of one of the local militia sniper guys who until two days ago was firing into Nahr al-Bared until the Lebanese army stopped him after the PLO leadership complained.

                    Lebanese entrepreneurs at Bibnin Akkar, a Sunni community loyal to the Hariri's and who will be the chief financial winners from the project, see opportunities with thousands of new construction and related jobs coming. One kind fellow who hooked me up last night to intermittent internet via a jerry rigged dial up arrangement on one of his shop's two computers, envisages running a fine new internet café with at least 50 wireless computers. Hotels, restaurants and businesses of various sorts are planning expansions to meet the demand of the expected workforce.

                    Who will not benefit from the building boom will be the 40,000+ Palestinians from Nahr al-Bared which is literally next door to the anticipated project. These refugees, who were driven from their homes in Palestine in 1948 and 1967, from Telezatter by the Phalanges in 1975, and others who came as a result of Israeli attacks on Lebanon in 1978, 1982, 1993, 1996, and 2006, will gain no work from Kleiaat. The reason is that the 70 top trades and professions in Lebanon are denied to Palestinians under Lebanese law.

                    Even if the 20,000 Palestinians displaced by the current conflict with Fatah al-Islam are allowed to return, which I expect will be the case, and even if Palestinian fears that the camps will be demolished are unrealized, as I believe, they will remain destitute, according to UNWRA, which considers 10,000 of them "special hardship cases."

                    As reported by the NATO headquarters in Brussels, as well as by residents in Bibnin Akkar on May 28, 2007, an American-German-Turkish military delegation has toured and surveyed the Akkar region. U.S. embassy "staff" reportedly visited Kleiaat airport earlier this year to look over the site. David Welch also had a quick look at the site during his recent visit.

                    A Lebanese journalist who opposes the base commented on May 28, 2007, "The Bush administration has been warning Lebanon about the presence of Al Qaeda teams in northern Lebanon. And the base is needed to deal with this threat. Low and behold, a new "terrorist group" called Fatah al-Islam appears near Kleiaat at al-Bared camp."

                    The Pentagon argues that the military base will contribute to the development and the economic recovery in the region, advising the Lebanese government to focus on the financial aspect and positive reflection on the population (95% Sunni) of the region.

                    Contenders for the billion dollar project, according to the Pentagon procurement office, could be Bechtel and Halliburton and other contractors currently doing projects in Iraq.

                    The martyred Prime Minister Rafic Hariri saw potential for the Kleiaat airport as well. But he opposed a U.S. airbase. Instead, Hariri, of whom the green grocer who sells fruits and vegetables to the Lebanese army patrolling the Tripoli-Syria four lane road in front of Nahr al-Bared, commented, "Rafik Hariri, may he rest in peace, loved Lebanon. But he never saw a piece of real estate he didn't want to develop!" Hariri envisaged a billion dollar Free Commercial Zone and a port, despite Syrian opposition, and had investors lined up before he was murdered. Damascus was opposed to the Hariri dream because the new Port and Free Zone would drain the revenues from the nearby Syrian Port at Lathikiya.

                    According to Washington observers watching developments, the base has been pushed by elements in the office of the U.S. Secretary of Defense and the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the urging of Israeli operative Elliot Abrams. AIPAC can be expected to do the necessary work in Congress and with House Foreign Affairs, Appropriations, Intelligence, and Armed Service committees hermetically sealed by stalwarts of the Israel Lobby, it can be expected that it will be added as a rider to an unsuspecting House bill coming along.

                    "We need to get this base built as quickly as possible as a forward thrust point against Al Qaeda and other (read Hizbullah) terrorists," according to AIPAC staffer Rachael Cohen. Asked if Israel will offer training and advisors to the Lebanese army, Ms. Cohen replied, "We will see what we will see, Lebanon, smezzanon it's not about them, it's about stopping the terrorists stupid!"

                    "The question for Lebanon is whether the Lebanese people will allow the base to be built. Few in North Lebanon doubt that Israel will have access to the base "according to Oathman Bader, a community leader who lives in Bahr al-Bared but has fled to Badawi.

                    Fatah al-Islam and their allies have pledged martyrdom operations to stop the project, according to the Fatah Intifada, the group that expelled Fatah al-Islam from their camp on November 27, 2006.

                    According to a columnist at Beirut's "Al-Akbar" newspaper," a U.S. project like that would split Lebanon apart. "No way will Lebanon allow it. Probably every group in Lebanon would oppose it, from the Salafi, Islamist fundamentalist to moderate Sunnis to Hizbullah. Can you imagine the Syrian reaction?"

                    Commenting on this project, an Arab-American from Boston doing volunteer work at the Palestinian Red Crescent Hospital, noted:

                    "Hopefully the U.S. pro-Middle East peace, pro-Palestinian, and pro-Lebanon organizations with better phone and internet connections than exist locally, will join the opposition in Lebanon to this base and fight it in Congress. Welch and the U.S. Embassy in Beirut should be questioned about it." g



                    Franklin Lamb's just released book, "The Price We Pay: A Quarter Century of Israel's Use of American Weapons in Lebanon," is available at Amazon.com.uk. His volume, "Hizbullah: a Brief Guide for Beginners," is due out in early summer, 2007. He can be reached at [email protected]. Reprinted from CounterPunch.com.
                    "All truth passes through three stages:
                    First, it is ridiculed;
                    Second, it is violently opposed; and
                    Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

                    Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

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