Armenian-Turkish Relations

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Football diplomacy



AFTER decades of fierce animosity, are Turkey and Armenia getting closer to peace? This week the two countries announced plans for six weeks of “internal political consultations” before establishing diplomatic ties and reopening their border. Coming after several months of Swiss mediation and arm-twisting by America, the declaration makes reconciliation between Turkey and Armenia a real prospect—but not a foregone conclusion.

Hopes of a new friendship blossomed in September 2008 when Turkey’s president, Abdullah Gul, became the first modern Turkish leader to visit Armenia, for a football World Cup qualifier (which Armenia lost). A full deal seemed imminent in April when the two countries initialled a preliminary agreement, including a plan to reopen the border. This was sealed by the Turks in 1993 in solidarity with their Azeri cousins during Azerbaijan’s short, sharp war with Armenia over Nagorno-Karabakh, a mainly Armenian enclave of Azerbaijan (which Armenia won).

Turkey had earlier insisted that it would not reopen the border until Armenia and Azerbaijan had made peace. But in April it seemed to change tack. The main reason was to stop America’s Congress adopting a resolution to label the mass slaughter of the Ottoman Armenians in 1915 as genocide. It worked: Barack Obama did not use the term in his annual April 24th statement on the anniversary of the killings.

Yet days later the Turkish prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, reverted to previous policy by insisting that peace with Armenia would come only if the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict was solved. The switch back reflected nationalist reaction at home as well as Azerbaijan’s threat to turn towards Russia. Armenia’s president, Serzh Sargsyan, retaliated by saying he would not attend a return football match in Turkey on October 14th unless the border was on the verge of being reopened.

This week’s announcement is calculated to ensure that Mr Sargsyan comes to the match, maintaining the façade of reconciliation. By careful coincidence the time for internal political consultations ends just before the match. Links of various sorts between the two countries are growing fast and Armenian tourists have been flocking to the Turkish coast. Yet hostility to a deal from opposition parties in both countries is strong.

Armenia’s hardline nationalists are furious that the government has agreed both to the present border and to a joint historical commission that might yet call the genocide into doubt. They also accuse Mr Sargsyan of selling out Karabakh. Even if the April 22nd deal is accepted, another hurdle has been raised: both countries’ parliaments must agree. To stifle domestic anger (and perhaps embarrass the Turks) Armenia also chose to publish the full text of the agreements in April. They do not mention Nagorno-Karabakh.

Turkey’s response has been contradictory. Its foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, insists that he hopes that the border will be reopened by the end of the year. But he also says that peace with Armenia is sustainable only if it makes peace with Azerbaijan. Long-running talks between Armenia and Azerbaijan seem to be going nowhere. Mr Davutoglu’s most accurate assertion may be that Turkey and Armenia are at the start of a “long process.” How long is anybody’s guess.

http://www.economist.com/world/europ...ry_id=14380297

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Football diplomacy

*Stabs that map and shreds it to pieces.* Here you go Mr. Economist.com, sir... use this

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

*stabs that map and shreds it to pieces.* here you go mr. Economist.com, sir... Use this

Ազատ ու անկախ Արցախ,

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

*Stabs that map and shreds it to pieces.* Here you go Mr. Economist.com, sir... use this

Notice how it says Armenian controlled Azerbaijan If you read the comments at the bottom of the article it'll probably piss you off even more.

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

CHP is the second biggest party in Turkey at the moment. It is also its oldest and was founded by Ataturk. The third biggest party are the MHP (fascists). It looks like the passing of these protocols in the Turkish parliament is a long shot.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Deniz Baykal: We will never vote for Protocols


“Turkish Republican People's Party never had a fundamental strategy, but the recent events, particularly Armenian-Turkish relations’ development made us reconsider our strategy,” Deniz Baykal, Republican People's Party (CHP) leader stated, Milliyet reports.

“If we start protests and rallies throughout Turkey, Government would not stand it for a day, it is our last warning to Turkish authorities. Our patience is not endless. Until Azerbaijani territories are not liberated, Republican People's Party will never vote for Armenian-Turkish reconciliation,” Baykal said.

“Prime Minister Erdogan promised Azerbaijanis not to open the border unless the occupation is removed. He gave a promise and if he is a man of honour, irretrievable things would not happen. We will monitor the situation closely and overall the developments connected with the Armenian Cause are a matter of great anxiety for us,” he added.

http://news.am/en/news/3623.html

[Icy]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

That economist website doesn't even have Armenia
as one of its country bios, but it has azerbaijan.

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I wonder what Vartan Oskanian and his "Civilitas" think-thank organisation think about 'the Protocols'. Kocharian was spotted in Stepanakert yesterday and he seemed to be cautiously optimistic about 'the Protocols' which is eyebrow raising given how he had openly stated his disagreements with Serge's openness to the Turks just a few months back.

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

The revolution needs to start in Washington to make the world see that we mean business and we will not back down to Genocide deniers. Holding the world hostage is the only way we will ever get worldwide coverage. Fu@k the tit for tat with the politicians, we need to take it to the streets if (when) it comes down to it. I will start by lighting my desk here at work on fire... gladly!!

Kanada jan, ANCA is pretty much being more harsh with Obama shmeetbama and but I don't rule out your proposition. Why not? Let's do whatever we can for both our country's sake. We have to get much tougher with these demeaning degradebale sheet heads, and if we have to go to the streets, by all means yes of course. But please don't light your desk yet dear. You need your money for our cause and your position is also important especially nowadays. I love your spirit though as it coincides with mine, Fedayi's, Dashnak's and Mukuch's.

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Obviously in geopolitics, might equals right. I'm not disputing that. And I agree we need to make Armenia stronger without killing it along the way--- However, by rejecting proposals that go against our long-term national security, we are not risking Armenia's demise. We simply have to reach a better dialogue with the Russians in order for them to understand under what conditions the open borders would not impede on our national security. Remember, Turkey was about to invade us in 1993, and we can't open a border with a country who just dismisses all their aggressive behavior towards us, as if they have the right to do it. The problem with Armenia's leadership is that they do not vocalize our real national security issues on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis. They don't do it with their own people, which shows irresponsibility, and they sure as hell don't do it on the international stage, although this is somewhat understandable but is in no way excusable. Thats why the Armenian side is unable to bring most of these issues out-of-the-blue now that we have agreed to negotiate with Turkey.

And I can't believe how Turkey actually got its preconditions on the protocols. For years the Armenian leadership's position has been "Open borders with no preconditions", and they have abandonded this principle. By changing a decades-long principle on a whim, we show the Turks that we are gullible, naive, and that we are desperate to open the border. If the other side thinks you want something desperately, they will never give you a good deal on it.

Its not impossible to work your way around these ridiculous preconditions. Turkey puts bogus things on the agenda, so we should respond with similar bogus claims to balance it out. If they bring up Karabagh, we bring up northern Cyprus, and argue that both are equally relevant to each other in terms of their relationship to our diplomatic relations. Lets hope they bring up Karabagh again so we can raise the northern Cyprus issue. If they bring up the issue of the border, just tell them you are willing to work with the current military-junta-imposed border we currently have with them, and tell them that the border issue is already resolved whether or not they want to recognize the valid documents that define our border. Nevertheless, as a goodwill gesture on our part, we will work with the current military-imposed borders, and no new document is needed in order to do this. Thats all you have to say to these Turks. By doing so we will simultaneously refuse signing away western Armenia, while showing everyone that we are willing to work with the current borders. I'm sure if we sit down and actually create a feasible strategy, we can achieve this, I'm just giving you ideas from the top of my head.

If they bring up the idea of a “historical commission”, refer them to the dozens of historical commissions that have already stated the Ottoman actions against us were genocide. Ask them why these other commissions are invalid. Ask for specific reasons. Then ask them to clearly define how this new commission is going to be set up, whether certain evidence will be considered, and how this body is going to be created, and refuse to include this provision if they cannot clearly define the process. Give them some homework before you even consider their proposal--- In fact, give them so much homework that they would rather remove it from the agenda. This is just simple rhetorical maneuvering that should be an instinct for our politicians. If Turkey knows we will answer each of their absurd suggestions with equally absurd suggestions, it will give Turkey an incentive to shut their mouths with their stupid preconditions.




And I have always said that Armenians should do the same. This starts with individuals like you and me working to become rich and powerful, even if its on a small scale.





I agree with a lot of your main points--- actually, the problem I have with Dashnaks is that they are too anti-Russian, and they think we can fight off the entire world with a handful of fedayis, even though most of them will sit comfortably in the diaspora when the war really starts. Even the European Union can’t mess with Gazprom, and these people want Armenia to do it. But, on an ideological basis, I happen to agree with much of what they are saying in regards to this issue, I just think these ideas could be put into more diplomatic and digestible terms (digestible for odars).

There are gentle ways in which we can tell Russia what our conditions are. I'm not saying we should oppose Russia, or that we should completely block off the negotiations. Do you think Moscow is going to abandon its only outpost in the Caucasus because we simply want one or two clauses removed from the protocols? Does that seem realistic to you? We're not trying to play hardball like the Ukrainians or Georgians, Russia just has to be reminded that we have vital interests too. By not addressing these interests to them with conviction, we disrespect ourselves in their eyes, and you can't respect people who don't respect themselves.

ArmSurvival; perhaps we should send you to Armenia and teach some of our polititians how to speak more harshly with the Russians to not let them walk all over and undermine our vital survival causes. How to maneuver with these asshole turks and make double talks with them. I see you are being political and your heart is in it's place but with a good political twist. Don't undermine Tashnagtsoutyoun though. Perhaps most of the Tashnagtsoutyoun members and some of it's heads are sitting in the Diaspora, but please do not put their spirit, their work and their nationalistic ways down. Please people let us not forget that if it wasn't for the Armenian Revolutionary Federation who put together an army and fought until their last breath to create the Armenia that we have it today, it wouldn't have materialized. And do not forget how a great many of ARF's Fedayis were fighting hand in hand in the Artsakhian liberation era in 1990's. If you think that they are not thinkers, are today's Sargsyan and Levon Der Bedrossian thinkers or patriotic Armenians? No... nata... and again nata. Neither one seem to give a damn about saving Armenia or Artsakh for our future generations of Armenians. However, I like your idea about bringing up Cyprus to the turks and how cleverly to divert the degrading propositions or protocols by turkey/USA/Israel. I say all three of them as USA has really become a State of Israel and turkey and Israel have already been fighting against the Genocide recognition for a great many years together in and out of the United States Congress. Because as we already know the Jews pretty much own the US Congress.

Otherwise, I very much respect the maturity and the nationalisticness of Tashnagtsoutyoun and Jarankoutyoun parties in Armenia that want to outvote Sargsyan's pro-turkish agendas in the parliament. That sounds just right for me.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Kanada jan, ANCA is pretty much being more harsh with Obama shmeetbama and but I don't rule out your proposition. Why not? Let's do whatever we can for both our country's sake. We have to get much tougher with these demeaning degradebale sheet heads, and if we have to go to the streets, by all means yes of course. But please don't light your desk yet dear. You need your money for our cause and your position is also important especially nowadays. I love your spirit though as it coincides with mine, Dashnak's and Mukuch's.

The Tamils were blocking and protesting on highways here in Toronto not too long ago to make people aware of what was going on back in their homeland of Sri Lanka. They weren't violent and I'm sure they made the ignorant and racists more than angry with their protests but they also made many others aware of what was happening on the other side of the world. Needless to say it got lots of news coverage. It's not like members in the Canadian government don't know what is happening on other parts of the world, I'm sure they are actively aware if not directly part of the problem since they are responsible for the immigration of those escaping the turmoil. You can't hide and silence an issue when thousands of people are actively protesting. I just wish all Armenians were as informed about Armenia's politics as some of those on this forum. I think some of our elders are failing our youth.