Who is an Armenian?

[crusader1492]

http://www.azg.am/?lang=EN&num=2007120106

Author: Armen Ayvasian, Phd.


AZG Armenian Daily #222, 01/12/2007
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National Interests
THE FUNDAMENTALS OF ARMENIAN IDENTITY OR WHO IS AN ARMENIAN?
In the current most complex period of development of Armenia and the Armenians, the problem of the Armenian identity represents not only an academic interest but has a serious practical significance. A strong national identity is a strategic asset in the process of building and strengthening a nation-state, while the dilution of national identity by no means facilitates but, moreover, hinders the consolidation of the individual and society around national goals and objectives.
After all, who can be considered Armenian today? As sensitive as this question is, since it touches the feelings of millions of people (especially our compatriots abroad), answering it is imperative. For an adequate illustration of the topic let us first present the state of affairs which the Armenian nation finds itself in today.
There are some irrefutable realities which we must see and accept exactly as they stand, rather than turn a blind eye to them, as do a significant section of the Armenians, including its "elite".
Thus:
Fact 1: The Armenian ethnicity is under the threat of extinction on the territory of its own homeland – in the Republic of Armenia, Artsakh and Javakhk. This threat springs simultaneously from a number of interrelated sources:
a) the possibility of military aggression by Azerbaijan;
b) a critical demographic crisis (the exodus of over a million Armenian citizens and the ongoing emigration negatively impact the viability of all spheres of life in the country);
c) the stalling of Armenian nation/state building process as well as the solidification of its political institutions;
d) uncultivated state of Armenia’s National Security doctrine ("The Armenian National Security Strategy" adopted in February 2007 is a declarative document, which, according to official announcements, has been written with the "methodology" and "editorship" of Moscow, Washington and Brussels experts). Consequently, there is a conspicuous absence of a clear Foreign Policy Direction based on national interests.
e) Armenia’s heavy dependence on foreign powers;
f) social tension, including the class and regional aspects (inter alia, the artificially created but effectively maintained dangerous antagonism between "hayastantsi" and "gharabaghtsi", the total mistrust towards politicians and political institutions, the alienation of the people from the decision-making process);
g) the complete absence of any struggle against corruption which pervades all spheres of public life in the republic;
h) the lack of a consistent language policy in Armenia, resulting in a defenseless and vulnerable state of the Armenian language;
i) The Georgian state policy of forcing out Armenians from Javakhk using administrative, economic, cultural, religious, linguistic and demographic pressures, and now even through open show and use of force.Yet, the foremost threat is characterized by the highly probable Azerbaijani aggression, which is being methodically planned and scrupulously prepared, with Turkey’s direct and indirect participation. If it were to succeed ending in the occupation of Artsakh and the liberated territory around it, the disappearance of the Republic of Armenia from the world map would be inevitable because the next, if not simultaneous, attack will be directed against Syunik – the last dividing bastion between these two Turkic allies. The existence of Syunik, without the shielding "barrier" of Artsakh, would become untenable. The weak communication links with central regions of Armenia, the absence of any defensive depth putting all of Syunik within range of Azerbaijan’s modern artillery systems, as well as the psychological trauma from the fall of Artsakh would reduce the defensibility of this strategically vital region to nearly zero. The resulting encirclement of the remainder of Armenia in a Turkish-Azerbaijani ring, will transform it into a ghetto – a kind of Transcaucasian Swaziland. Subsequently, the obliteration of Armenia by Azerbaijan and Turkey, if not through military action, then through economic, political and psychological pressures, will simply be a matter of time. Thus being deprived of any prospects for sustainable development and losing its role as a potential safe haven for the millions of Armenians scattered throughout the world, the resulting geometrically progressed mass emigration would weaken Armenia to the degree of being divided by and absorbed into Turkey, Azerbaijan and Georgia. Although the Armenian nation succeeded in eliminating this very scenario in the 1990s, the Turco-Azeri alliance, far from forsaking it, will attempt to implement it if Armenians prove unable to mount an effective resistance.
Fact 2: Armenians can survive only if Armenia survives – as an Armenian state and the Armenian nation living within it.
Fact 3: Without Armenia, the Armenian Spyurk (Diaspora) cannot represent a nation, i.e., a viable entity ensuring national preservation and reproduction of Armenian race (let alone the preservation and development of the Armenian language and culture).
Fact 4: During the last decades the inevitable acculturation and assimilation processes in Spyurk have sharply accelerated to an unprecedented level. In particular, as a result of emigration, every year the ranks of the Armenian communities are thinning out in the Middle East, where until recently the percentage of mixed marriages were extremely low, and the Armenian schools and other community structures functioned effectively. In 20-30 years from now there will remain at best tiny islands of the once flourishing communities of Lebanon, Iran and Syria, similar to what has already happened to the Armenians of Iraq. As for the Armenians living in Russia and the developed West, they are subject to even faster acculturation and assimilation.
Fact 5: There is no Armenian culture without the Armenian language. Along with the statehood and the territory under its control, the language is the foundation and paramount means of preserving the Armenian ethnicity. The fact that many of our compatriots, especially in Spyurk, can feel and consider themselves Armenian without knowing the Armenian language, is possible only thanks to the people of Armenia who still speak, write and create in Armenian. Let us picture a hypothetical situation where Armenians in Armenia have forgotten their mother tongue and communicate with one another, are educated, write and create in a foreign language, no matter which – Russian, English or Chinese. This would signify nothing less than the end of the Armenian civilization, the end of the Armenian culture and the end of the Armenian ethnos!
Yet, today Armenia itself faces the full weight of the challenge of preserving and developing the Armenian language (i.e. culture). As was mentioned earlier, this is due to the decrease in the number of users of the Armenian language (including the potential users – children who received and receive non-Armenian education abroad) attributable to the emigration of our compatriots and the absence of appropriate protection of the Armenian language by the State. After 16 years of independence, it is high time that we duly acknowledge the fundamental role and place that language has in the life of a nation – something that the Armenian political elite and a significant portion of the intelligentsia fail to do. On the contrary, in the language policy, just like in certain other fundamental areas, attempts are still being made to regress the Armenian political thinking.

[crusader1492]

Conclusions
Conclusion 1: The Armenian nation is in the active phase of the struggle for survival on a fraction of its own homeland, preserved at the cost of unimaginable sacrifices. In other words, the Armenian nation is a struggling organism whose main, vitally important function is the struggle for survival.
Conclusion 2: The frontlines of this struggle for survival stretch out not only along Armenia’s borders with Azerbaijan and Turkey, but evidently also throughout the country itself, embracing the spheres of demography, economy, social life, science and education. Emigration, regardless of its reasons, removes Armenians, partially or fully, from the central battlefield for survival, that is – Armenia. Repatriation, on the other hand, results in the replenishment of a vitally necessary reserve for the country.
Based on the above-mentioned strategic considerations I will attempt to answer the question: "who is an Armenian?" and in what way is s/he differentiated from an Armenian by birth.
One is an Armenian if s/he:
1) considers Armenia his/her only homeland within two dimensions of time and territory – in her historic and present boundaries;
2) has strong psychological attachments to his homeland – its territory, people, language and culture;
3) feels personal responsibility for Armenia’s fate and assumes political obligations towards it;
4) if living abroad, seriously contemplates avenues for his and his family’s repatriation;
5) either is or tries to become the bearer of the Armenian language and culture;
6) strives to maintain his offsprings Armenian, including by means of passing on to them the knowledge of the Armenian language and by bringing them into the realm of the national culture. Those of our compatriots who consider the country of their birth or citizenship and not Armenia as their homeland, who do not feel psychological attachments and political responsibility towards Armenia, who do not wish to think about living in the Homeland, who do not seek to be the bearers of the Armenian language, who consciously or unconsciously have reconciled with and are not concerned about the inevitable assimilation of their offsprings, can be considered Armenians by origin only, because, in reality, they are already either cosmopolitans or representatives of another nationality. Indeed, it does not matter at all if they shout from the rooftops that they are the most real and authentic Armenians (a genuine self-deception!). The fact is that these individuals, regardless of the reasons, are beyond the nation’s life-process and do not partake in its subsistence even at its most fateful moment.
It should also be emphasized that genetics are of a secondary importance in determining of an Armenian or any other national identity. The real identity of an individual is defined by his personal involvement in and contribution to the life processes of the relevant nation.
Thus, we should differentiate between an Armenian on the one hand, and a person of Armenian origin on the other. This does not mean at all that the former is good and the latter is bad. Simply, the latter no longer can or wants to sacrifice anything for the sake of Armenia and already has a fundamentally different national self-consciousness.
For Armenians by origin it would be useful perhaps to look at themselves honestly and without self-deception and hypocrisy: They have actually left the field of the nation’s life activities. Nevertheless, the road is still open for them both ways – total and irreversible assimilation or the return to national roots, the rediscovery of the Armenian language and culture and participation in the nation’s life. In this sense, a large segment of Spyurk are potential Armenians. Unfortunately, such alianated potential Armenians are not rare in Armenia itself, who are fully or partially cut off from the Armenian language, culture and politics and who fail to perceive the common threat of extinction facing all Armenians.
I would like to repeat what I have written about many times before. Preserving Armenianness abroad, "hayapahpanum", cannot be an end in/of itself. The true goal for the preservation of Diasporan Armenians is their reunion with their motherland under the auspieces of an independent state, as of now on the territory under the control of Armenian armed forces. Considering the preservation of Armenianness an end goal (as a considerable part of the Armenians abroad does) severely weakens the most important elements of the same "hayapahpanum."
The struggle for physical survival is unfortunately the core function of life of the Armenian nation. It is this very function that determines and necessitates the fundamental pillar of the Armenian identity – direct and personal engagement in this struggle for the realisation of the national objectives, which presently are:
- the preservation at all cost of that territory, essential for security, on which Armenia (RA and NKR together with the liberated territory around it) has existed for the whole period of its latest independence;
- the increasing of the number of the Armenian population in the Homeland;
- the preservation of the Armenians of Javakhk on their lands;
- the building of a nation-state based on the principles of rule of law, social justice, democracy and protection of national interests and values, including the development of the Armenian language and culture.There are tremendous practical, ideological and psychological obstacles and ossified stereotypes that must be overcome throughout this struggle. They emanate essentially from non-Armenian sources but are often coming in to the scene through those Armenian political structures which long ago or recently have fallen under the slavish dependence of foreign powers. The engagement in the struggle for the achievement of the above-mentioned objectives will underpin an Armenian’s ethnic resistibility with such a breath of emotions, feelings and knowledge that he/she will indeed have the drive and the need to acquire and become the bearer of the basic elements of the national self-consciousness – the language, culture, customs and traditions.
To sum up, we can conclude that as long as Armenia as a nation and state is drawn into a long-term struggle for survival against powers superior in terms of numbers, resources and territory (Turkey and Azerbaijan), the most natural and functionally strongest ethnically differentiating characteristic feature of an Armenian is the acknowledgment and assumption of personal responsibility – proportionate to his/her strengths and capabilities – for destiny of the homeland.
By Armen Ayvazian, Ph.D. in Political Science, Director of the "Ararat" Center for Strategic Research
P. S. At the end I invite you to read an English translation of an excerpt from a poem by Raphael Patkanyan entitled "The Armenian and Armenianness" written back in 1855, and a quote from Garegin Nzhdeh. Both are most relevant to this discourse.
Who is an Armenian? Is he the one who speaks in Armenian?
Or whose name ends with the suffix yan?
The one who always eats tolma, pilav for lunch
Or proudly always wears Armenian attire and hat?
Who is an Armenian, is he the one who attends an Armenian Church
And goes to confession at least four times a year?
That has never ignored the lent and also fasts during that
And when he yawns he crosses his open mouth?
No, my dear, nationhood is not an external act
Not even your Armenian birth will give you that right...
If you are an Armenian, you must respect the Armenians for sure,
Armenia for you must be the star of hope...
Love your nation not by words but as you love yourself,
For her sake if necessary, sacrifice all your self,
Don’t even save your life, give your blood to her
Not with the hope that your nation instatntly will appreciate you.
(Translated from Armenian by Hratch V. Vartanian, M.D.)
Later, in mid-20th century the same concept is highlighted by Garegin Nzhdeh: "Armenia! He who did not know how to die for you in your hour of need and who will not want to die for you tomorrow – is not your son, is not an Armenian!"
This coincidence could testify only to the following: the struggle for survival of the Armenian nation has now been going on for over one and a half century.Home | Rating

AZG Armenian Daily #222, 01/12/2007

[Armenian]

One is an Armenian if s/he:

1) considers Armenia his/her only homeland within two dimensions of time and territory – in her historic and present boundaries;
2) has strong psychological attachments to his homeland – its territory, people, language and culture;
3) feels personal responsibility for Armenia’s fate and assumes political obligations towards it;
4) if living abroad, seriously contemplates avenues for his and his family’s repatriation;
5) either is or tries to become the bearer of the Armenian language and culture;
6) strives to maintain his offsprings Armenian, including by means of passing on to them the knowledge of the Armenian language and by bringing them into the realm of the national culture. Those of our compatriots who consider the country of their birth or citizenship and not Armenia as their homeland, who do not feel psychological attachments and political responsibility towards Armenia, who do not wish to think about living in the Homeland, who do not seek to be the bearers of the Armenian language, who consciously or unconsciously have reconciled with and are not concerned about the inevitable assimilation of their offsprings, can be considered Armenians by origin only, because, in reality, they are already either cosmopolitans or representatives of another nationality. Indeed, it does not matter at all if they shout from the rooftops that they are the most real and authentic Armenians (a genuine self-deception!). The fact is that these individuals, regardless of the reasons, are beyond the nation’s life-process and do not partake in its subsistence even at its most fateful moment.

I agree with Dr. Ayvazian, word-for-word. I hope now people can see why I keep saying there are only a handful of "Armenians" left on earth, and virtually none in the diaspora.

[crusader1492]

I agree with Dr. Ayvazian, word-for-word. I hope now people can see why I keep saying there are only a handful of "Armenians" left on earth, and virtually none in the diaspora.

Hopefully, Siamanto will reads this and at least soften his/her stance on labeling Kim Kardashian as Hye. ;)

[SaroukhSako]

I agree with Dr. Ayvazian, word-for-word. I hope now people can see why I keep saying there are only a handful of "Armenians" left on earth, and virtually none in the diaspora.

VIRTUALLY NONE IN THE DIASPORA??

what do you mean by ur last sentence so that there will be no misunderstanding between us because i agree with what is said in the article and "TSOULVILE" of the armenians in diaspora is real and happening as we speak but i want to know what do you mean so that i explain you what are we armenians are felling or doing in the diaspora.....

[Armenian]

VIRTUALLY NONE IN THE DIASPORA??

In other words, very-very little.

Now don't try to convince yourself otherwise. Once you sit yourself down and think hard and objectively about this topic, I am sure you will come to the same conclusions as I have.

Diasporan Armenians can be 'proud' Armenians, however, they do not exhibit classical 'nationalism/patriotism' in their relationship to their homeland. And please, let's not confuse 'party' pride (Dashnak/Hnchak/Ramkavar) with 'nationalistic' pride. What we essentially have in the global Armenian diaspora are Americans with Armenian identity, Russians with Armenian identity, Lebanese with Armenian identity, French with Armenian identity, Turks with Armenian identity, etc. Putting aside going to Armenian church service twice a year, participating in a genocide memorial or attending some Armenian dinner dance - how are the 'ethnic' Armenians living in foreign lands impacting the Armenian nation?

In my opinion, any Armenian that does not have a 'spiritual' and 'physical' connection to his/her homeland is absolutely worthless and useless to the Armenian nation. Thus, in final analysis, it's all about one's 'relationship' to the homeland.

The diaspora is an eventual graveyard for Armenians. Therefore, as long as the Armenian diaspora exists - it should be treated as a milking cow for the homeland.

what do you mean by ur last sentence so that there will be no misunderstanding between us because i agree with what is said in the article and "TSOULVILE" of the armenians in diaspora is real and happening as we speak but i want to know what do you mean so that i explain you what are we armenians are felling or doing in the diaspora.....

Based upon my personal experiences, the most healthy displays of classical nationalism/patriotism I have seen in my life have been amongst Armenians of our republic. However, due to various sociopolitical factors, even in the Armenian Republic the number of 'true' nationalists is relatively small. Nevertheless, it is there, it is growing, and it is whats keeping our republic safe and on a forward progression. Naturally, our national culture and our language today is flourishing within our homeland as well. Give it some peace and stability in a generation or two Armenians there will manage to turn that nation into the gem of the Caucasus. I have no doubt in their resilience and creativity. Nevertheless, our collective efforts in the diaspora must must have one goal in sight - the preservation of the Armenian Republic and its prosperity.

However, the Armenian diaspora, expect for a few areas of holdouts, is more-or-less on the verge of death. And the remaining holdouts - Los Angeles, Montreal, Beirut and Tehran, will eventually die as well. Also notice that the Armenian language in the diaspora is practically dead. A nation's health is measured by how well it keeps its national language abroad. Also notice that a great majority of the new born children in the diaspora are of mixed heritage. The diaspora's Armenian identity is more-or-less based on a sick/twisted obsession with the Armenian Genocide, especially in the West. As a result, instead of cultural/national pride - most diasporan Armenians in western nations display some sick form of pride for being victims... Sometimes it seems as if the only thing keeping the Armenian diaspora alive today is the unresolved Armenian Genocide... God forbid Turks every recognize the Genocide, you will have the entire Armenian diaspora of the western world disappearing off the face of the earth within a generation.

That is why I have always said Armenians should be made to pursue recognition of the Armenian Genocide without it actually happening. At least this way we'll be able to prolong the inevitable and hope that in the meanwhile something positive can be done for the Armenian Republic.

What's more, of the "proud" Armenian diasporans you know around you, how many of them have actually visited their homeland? Of those who have, how many return regularly to participate in nation building? How many of them look at the Armenian Republic as their true and only homeland? How many of them who have visited the Armenian homeland disregard the amazing developments occurring in the country (against all odds may I remind you) and merely choose to rant about prostitutes, corruption, dirty toilets, etc? How many Armenians do you know choose to vacation in places like Lebanon and Turkey instead of Armenia? How many Armenians do you know that regularly sing Lebanon's praise as they curse Hayastan? What percentage of those Armenians around you have had their children or grandchildren marry Armenians? How well do the Armenians around you speak the Armenian language? How many Armenians around you would be willing to physically and financially support a defensive war effort if the Armenian nation was threatened militarily? How many Armenians around you are actually thinking about repatriating to the homeland?

Do you now see the picture? The picture is quite sad. If you seriously and objectively think about this topic, you will clearly see what I am saying. Diasporan Armenians may be "proud" Armenians - but "nationalism" does not exist within diasporan circles. It's all about one's relationship to the homeland. If an Armenian does not have this relationship with his/her homeland then what good are they as Armenians? Having said that, I must note that the ARF has been the one of two diasporan institution in existence (the other being the extinct Hnchaks) that has produced some true nationalists.

Let's just face it and let's deal with it, no matter how much effort one puts in it - the diaspora is a dead end. If an Armenian chooses to live in the diaspora as a proud Armenian, that's fine and great. They should just realize, however, that what they are doing is no different than expressing a fashion statement, a life style choice if you will. Eventually their seed with disappear into the society in which then live. Therefore, in my opinion, most proud diasporan Armenians are superficial Armenians - good weather Armenians I call them. And when I refer to "diasporans" it also includes most Hayastantsis that currently live in the diaspora. However, at the very least, many of the Hayastantsis in question have a real connection to their homeland, unlike other Armenians.

This is a very difficult topic to discuss because it bring out emotions in people. Most react negatively to what I say, a clear indicator that I have stuck a raw nerve. But realize that I am not telling people to start packing and move to Armenia... That would be silly of me. All I am attempting to do is asking people to 'think' about this topic. As an Armenian, where are you headed? What is the end game? I also want people to start thinking hard about their 'connection' to the Armenian homeland.

I hope I was able to answer your question.

Just curious, why do you choose to adopt a Turkish/Arabic word like "Saroukh" in your user name? What's wrong with its Armenian equivalent "hrtir"?

[SaroukhSako]

In other words, very-very little.

Now don't try to convince yourself otherwise. Once you sit yourself down and think hard and objectively about this topic, I am sure you will come to the same conclusions as I have.

Diasporan Armenians can be 'proud' Armenians, however, they do not exhibit classical 'nationalism/patriotism' in their relationship to their homeland. And please, let's not confuse 'party' pride (Dashnak/Hnchak/Ramkavar) with 'nationalistic' pride. What we essentially have in the global Armenian diaspora are Americans with Armenian identity, Russians with Armenian identity, Lebanese with Armenian identity, French with Armenian identity, Turks with Armenian identity, etc. Putting aside going to Armenian church service twice a year, participating in a genocide memorial or attending some Armenian dinner dance - how are the 'ethnic' Armenians living in foreign lands impacting the Armenian nation?

In my opinion, any Armenian that does not have a 'spiritual' and 'physical' connection to his/her homeland is absolutely worthless and useless to the Armenian nation. Thus, in final analysis, it's all about one's 'relationship' to the homeland.

The diaspora is an eventual graveyard for Armenians. Therefore, as long as the Armenian diaspora exists - it should be treated as a milking cow for the homeland.



Based upon my personal experiences, the most healthy displays of classical nationalism/patriotism I have seen in my life have been amongst Armenians of our republic. However, due to various sociopolitical factors, even in the Armenian Republic the number of 'true' nationalists is relatively small. Nevertheless, it is there, it is growing, and it is whats keeping our republic safe and on a forward progression. Naturally, our national culture and our language today is flourishing within our homeland as well. Give it some peace and stability in a generation or two Armenians there will manage to turn that nation into the gem of the Caucasus. I have no doubt in their resilience and creativity. Nevertheless, our collective efforts in the diaspora must must have one goal in sight - the preservation of the Armenian Republic and its prosperity.

However, the Armenian diaspora, expect for a few areas of holdouts, is more-or-less on the verge of death. And the remaining holdouts - Los Angeles, Montreal, Beirut and Tehran, will eventually die as well. Also notice that the Armenian language in the diaspora is practically dead. A nation's health is measured by how well it keeps its national language abroad. Also notice that a great majority of the new born children in the diaspora are of mixed heritage. The diaspora's Armenian identity is more-or-less based on a sick/twisted obsession with the Armenian Genocide, especially in the West. As a result, instead of cultural/national pride - most diasporan Armenians in western nations display some sick form of pride for being victims... Sometimes it seems as if the only thing keeping the Armenian diaspora alive today is the unresolved Armenian Genocide... God forbid Turks every recognize the Genocide, you will have the entire Armenian diaspora of the western world disappearing off the face of the earth within a generation.

That is why I have always said Armenians should be made to pursue recognition of the Armenian Genocide without it actually happening. At least this way we'll be able to prolong the inevitable and hope that in the meanwhile something positive can be done for the Armenian Republic.

What's more, of the "proud" Armenian diasporans you know around you, how many of them have actually visited their homeland? Of those who have, how many return regularly to participate in nation building? How many of them look at the Armenian Republic as their true and only homeland? How many of them who have visited the Armenian homeland disregard the amazing developments occurring in the country (against all odds may I remind you) and merely choose to rant about prostitutes, corruption, dirty toilets, etc? How many Armenians do you know choose to vacation in places like Lebanon and Turkey instead of Armenia? How many Armenians do you know that regularly sing Lebanon's praise as they curse Hayastan? What percentage of those Armenians around you have had their children or grandchildren marry Armenians? How well do the Armenians around you speak the Armenian language? How many Armenians around you would be willing to physically and financially support a defensive war effort if the Armenian nation was threatened militarily? How many Armenians around you are actually thinking about repatriating to the homeland?

Do you now see the picture? The picture is quite sad. If you seriously and objectively think about this topic, you will clearly see what I am saying. Diasporan Armenians may be "proud" Armenians - but "nationalism" does not exist within diasporan circles. It's all about one's relationship to the homeland. If an Armenian does not have this relationship with his/her homeland then what good are they as Armenians? Having said that, I must note that the ARF has been the one of two diasporan institution in existence (the other being the extinct Hnchaks) that has produced some true nationalists.

Let's just face it and let's deal with it, no matter how much effort one puts in it - the diaspora is a dead end. If an Armenian chooses to live in the diaspora as a proud Armenian, that's fine and great. They should just realize, however, that what they are doing is no different than expressing a fashion statement, a life style choice if you will. Eventually their seed with disappear into the society in which then live. Therefore, in my opinion, most proud diasporan Armenians are superficial Armenians - good weather Armenians I call them. And when I refer to "diasporans" it also includes most Hayastantsis that currently live in the diaspora. However, at the very least, many of the Hayastantsis in question have a real connection to their homeland, unlike other Armenians.

This is a very difficult topic to discuss because it bring out emotions in people. Most react negatively to what I say, a clear indicator that I have stuck a raw nerve. But realize that I am not telling people to start packing and move to Armenia... That would be silly of me. All I am attempting to do is asking people to 'think' about this topic. As an Armenian, where are you headed? What is the end game? I also want people to start thinking hard about their 'connection' to the Armenian homeland.

I hope I was able to answer your question.

Just curious, why do you choose to adopt a Turkish/Arabic word like "Saroukh" in your user name? What's wrong with its Armenian equivalent "hrtir"?






my NICKNAME is SAROUKHsako and saroukh is not the Turkish word I'm using is the Arabic, i am from Lebanon....and believe me i am an Armenian in every aspects of life. you cant and you don't have the right to question my nationalistic views and my attachment to the hayrenik after all i saw when i was 17 but i was raised as i was living there we in the diaspora remain and fight our way through every you can call interference to stay Armenians.....don't judge Armenian from the place they are born after all the turks are the reason i was born in Lebanon.......i am an Armenian and maybe even more than you maybe..........but bunch of papers do not prove that you are an Armenian more than me if you are born in Armenia then good for you but i was born else where and lived in Armenia also all my life believe me it was and is like that

[Armenian]

my NICKNAME is SAROUKHsako and saroukh is not the Turkish word I'm using is the Arabic, i am from Lebanon....

The point is, its not Armenian. And Lebanon should not be considered your homeland, that is if you identify yourself as an Armenian nationalist.

and believe me i am an Armenian in every aspects of life. you cant and you don't have the right to question my nationalistic views and my attachment to the hayrenik after all i saw when i was 17 but i was raised as i was living there we in the diaspora remain and fight our way through every you can call interference to stay Armenians.....

Where did I question your nationalistic views? Where did I say you are not a good Armenian? I don't even know you. And regardless of how hard you fight the "interference to stay Armenians" in the diaspora your line will eventually assimilate. That's the reality we all face.

don't judge Armenian from the place they are born after all the turks are the reason i was born in Lebanon......

When did I judge Armenians based on where they were born? As long as someone is a good Armenian it does not matter to me where they were born.

i am an Armenian and maybe even more than you maybe..........

I would be happy if you were a better Armenian than me. Where did I say I'm a better Armenian than anyone here? I have pointed out bad and/or foolish Armenians here, but I have 'never' claimed to be an exemplary Armenian.

but bunch of papers do not prove that you are an Armenian more than me if you are born in Armenia then good for you but i was born else where and lived in Armenia also all my life believe me it was and is like that

I wasn't born in Armenia either. What papers are you talking about?

I think you are taking my comments too personally. My commentary was general in nature. If any of the criticisms I have does not apply to you then simply disregard them and see that in places like Lebanon and USA the Armenian diaspora is dying and their Armenian identity is superficial. Also realize that most Armenians who identify themselves as Armenians are proud Armenians, they are not nationalistic Armenians. So, do you or that don't you agree with the points I was making regarding one's relationship to their homeland and the eventual demise of the Armenian diaspora?

Again, this is not about you Sako, it's about the diaspora in general.

[freakyfreaky]

Swiss Ambassador to Lebanon takes interest in the study of the different expressions of being Armenian - known as Armenography.

"On February 28, at the Art Lounge on the Corniche du Fleuve, there will be a presentation of Armenographie, by Stephen Kristensen and Anna Barseghian. Armenographie is the result of encounters in Armenia, Syria, Turkey and Lebanon. Each context bears witness to a different way of being Armenian, even of becoming Armenian. Armenographie bears witness to a precarity of existence, but also to a vibrancy of life, in Armenian communities in various parts of the diaspora."

http://www.mmorning.com/ArticleC.asp?Article=5553&CategoryID=3

C.V. of Anna Barseghian and Stefan Kristensen, the co-contributors to "Armenographie".

http://thessalonikibiennale.gr/pdf/BarseghianKristensen.pdf

[Armenian]

I think this thread deserves a second look.

Regarding Armen Ayvazian: His work is crucially important for the Armenian state. For Armenian patriots, Armen Ayvazian's "Ararat Center For Strategic Research" is the ideal political think tank. It needs to be supported. In my opinion, any money spent/donated in the Armenian diaspora is money wasted. Many asswipes in our diaspora (dashnaks, Ramkavars, Amerikahais, Beirutahais, etc) gave Armen a lot of xxxx for his essay - "Who is an Armenian." He was personally upset by it, but he said he expected it.

We need to promote and encourage Armen Ayvazian. Don't waste money on church picnics or fund raisers for your local Armenian center - donate your money ($25, $50, $100 whatever you can afford) to the Ararat Center For Strategic Research. They have a branch in California that takes donations in the US. Sadly, their support base is very small, they desperately need money to expand their work. It also would not hurt to visit their website often and post words of encouragement.

Ararat Center For Strategic Research: http://www.ararat-center.org/index.php?p=6&l=eng

http://blog.ararat-center.org/wp-content/themes/paalam-11/img/header.jpg

[Armanen]

I will be encouraging others to donate as well.

I've even thought about inquiring about an internship there, who knows maybe one day I will work there, that would be great.

[yerazhishda]

I agree that one shouldn't donate egregious amounts of money in the diaspora (outside of cultural/language programs, and even church renovations). This is why I support primarily charities that are based in and working towards improving the Republic such as FAR.

[Armenian]

Living in one of the countries mentioned, I don't think what you're saying is correct. With the 10+ Armenian schools, 1 Armenian university, 3 Armenian political parties and many Armenian organizations in this small country

You must be "Krazy" if you think you will maintain that status forever. Tell me, how is the Armenian community in Lebanon doing today compared to the early 1970s? And don't blame the civil war, it's the Middle East, and wars there are as inevitable as the sun rising in the morning. And tell me how close you are to your ancestral homeland, Armenia? Not by words, but by action.

If you are a typical 'proud' Lebanese-Armenian:

You have not set foot in Armenia, although it's literally couple of hours away.

And if you did go to Armenia as a tourist (and not on a gold/diamond buying spree) you probably did not enjoy yourself very much.

You look down at Armenians from Armenia as being either xxxxs or crooks, depending on the gender.

You complain that they speak Armenian mixed with Russian - while you speak Armenian mixed with Turkish, Arabic, French and English.

You feel 'culturally' much closer to Arabs, sometimes the French, and whether you admit it or not, Turks.

I think we are doing a good job to remain Armenians. Here in Lebanon, we even get blamed of not considering ourselves Lebanese.


"Remain Armenians" to what end, Krazy? Living in the diaspora is one thing, but proudly boasting a 'diaspora forever' attitude is counterproductive. What matters in any discussion about Armenians is the well being of the Armenian Republic. Regardless of what you want to believe, the diaspora is a dead end. While the Diaspora exists it should exists for the benefit of the Armenian Republic. Other than an insignificant number of fighters and some small scale benefactors, what has the majority of the proud and nationalistic Lebanese Armenian community done for Armenia?

For me, a single repatriated Armenian in Armenia, or an Armenian that keeps an intimate connection with his/her homeland, is worth more than the entire Armenian diaspora.

Your expectations are set too high, Armenian,

My expectations are no higher than yours, enker. I expect Armenians regardless of where they live to look towards Armenia as their homeland and stop their clannish behavior, this goes for Armenians from Armenia as well. To me, an assimilated Armenian in the West and a proud Armenian without connections to his/her motherland in Lebanon are the same xxxx. Actually, I would be able to tolerate the assimilated Armenian better...

Lebanese-Armenians, like all Diasporans, have a legitimate reason of not speaking perfect Armenian. However, the same cannot be true for the motherland where everything is in Armenian, everyone is Armenian and it has been independent of Soviet rule for almost 20 years now. Lebanese-Armenians, despite all the slang (slang also present in Armenia), probably have the best education/knowledge of Armenian among the Diaspora.

In reality the opposite was true during the Soviet Years. Moscow suppressed the usage of the Armenian language. The best schools in Armenia operated in Russian. And I would prefer the ugly street slang of Yerevan over the Arabic-Turkish crap spoken in the streets of Burj hamood. Nonetheless, the stature of Armenians in Lebanon is decreasing yearly.

Lebanon is regularly the top investor in Armenia, even more than Russia (probably up until this year, when the Russian government injected a bunch). For example, see this link from last year http://www.huliq.com/23623/armenia-posts-44-increase-in-foreign-investments-in-q-1 .

Dude, please. This is betting silly now. What you are doing here is spin. Russia is said to have invested about a billion dollars into the Armenian economy last year and hundreds of millions in the preceding years and you happened to have found a small time segment on the calendar where Lebanon did better? Get real, please. Over a billion dollars gets pumped into Armenia from Russia annually. Why don't you look into that investment from Lebanon. Was it Armenians in Lebanon or was it some inter-governmental deal between Yerevan and Beirut. What has Lebanon done before that and after that? The fact remains, other than a handful of outstanding individuals, I have not seen anything of substance from Armenians of Lebanon.

They're not all that bad, they should serve as a model for all the Diaspora communities.

I agree that not all are bad, but a vast majority are worthless. And their disdain towards the homeland and its people, regardless of "akhpar", "46-48," "Levon" (who is an Akhpar by the way), is despicable and inexcusable.

I have in my family individuals that would never even think about stepping foot in Armenia. I many know individuals that say Western Armenia is their homeland and not the current republic in the Caucasus. I know many individuals that look upon Armenians from Armenia as lowlives. And these people that I'm talking about, my relatives and friends of my relatives, are "proud Armenians" - like the rest of the Lebanese Armenians. But you tell me, Federate. What good are they as Armenians?

An assimilated Armenian is no longer Armenian my friend, they are just as good as odars.

I'm fully capable of appreciating an odar''s company, although my friends are primarily Armenians. I think there is a lot we Armenians can learn from certain westerners.However, when I come across "proud" Armenians who are anti-Armenia I cant find anything redeemable in them. Perhaps one day they may wake up from their stupidity but I am not going to waste my time waiting for them...

It's not silly my friend, I am not spinning anything. That figure was from 2007, here's one from 2005 http://www.armeniadiaspora.net/ADC/news.asp?id=213 . Mind you that the community like you said is shrinking (you claimed less than 100 000) so the investments will generally fall. Russia has over 2 million Armenians, many of them generous billionaires and many of them with family in Armenia, on top of the country being our big brother. It is expected to happen.

These figures are very misleading, enker. So, based on that list of top foreign investors in Armenia Greece is supposedly a top investor as well? The money that pushed Greece to the top of the list has to do with a single project, one investment, Armentel, never mind that they totally xxxxed it up and eventually sold it to the Russians. With the Lebanese investment, the 50-60 million dollar figure probably has to do with the Lebanon based Vivacell, Armenia's largest wireless company, which was also then sold to the Russians last year (for over $400 million). Nonetheless, Russia has been by far Armenia's largest trading partner to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars annually. Without Russian trade, investment and money transactions Armenia simply would not survive. Let's not create fairytales regarding Lebanon. Please.

[Armenian]

I did not say the Armenian government must control the lives of the Diaspora Armenians, but they can promote the Armenian heritage, culture and history by way of ''propaganda'' (telling the truth, whereas Turkey is telling lies as propaganda). Turkey and Israel (ofcourse not comparable with our budget) both have a strong connection with their Diaspora, both having a huge propaganda-information-machine...

Enker, this is what I mean by you sounding silly. You are comparing Armenia, a tiny, resourceless, impoverished, landlocked, embattled nation in the Caucasus with Turkey and Israel?!?!?!

This is ludicrous.

Did you realize that Turkey has one of the biggest economies in the world. Turkey is Europe's China. Istanbul hosts the world's fourth largest group of 'Billionaires' - after Moscow, New York and London. The Turkish army is the second largest in Europe, second only to Russia. And don't even attempt to bring up the Zionist State in comparison to Armenia.

Damn. What is wrong with you Armenians???

Who else but Armenia herself can attract the Diaspora Armenians? Thus I believe it is the task of the Armenian government to promote our cultural heritage, to promote repatriation (to involve in the communities of the Armenia Diaspora) and when they fail in this important aspect, the blaim is also on independent Armenia herself.

Leave the government in Armenia alone and let them do their jobs. Like I said, given our resources, they will have a hard enough time protecting our borders. You, I and every other self-respecting Armenian in the diaspora has the obligation to promote Armenia to compensate for our lack of resources. We, the grass roots of the surviving diaspora, have to take it upon ourselves to promote Armenia. Figure out how you can participate in promoting Armenian interests.

I totally disagree that a nation's government is a reflection of the nation. A lot of government's in the world came in power through force and corruption, not by the will of the people. Armenia deserves the best politician. There are a lot of ''obvious'' things our government neglects or does wrong,

Generally speaking, governments are a reflection of the people they rule over. This does not apply to situations like Iraq where governmental change was brought upon by foreigners by the use of force. Take a close look at various other nations, Turkey, Russia, EU, India, USA, Britain, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and you shall see that in essence the rulers reflect the very nature and character of the people they rule over. So, yes. Our corrupt oligarchs and our ignorant politicians reflect the current state of our people's character.

I wonder if you read the articles of Dr. Armen Ayvazyan?

I know him personally. I have great respect for him. Although he engages in "constructive criticisms" (something Armenians don't want to learn) of the Armenian government, he nevertheless would love to land a position with the current government; and he considers Levon Ter Petrosian a treasonous criminal as well.

Can you explain to me for example, why the government still does not have a ''plan'' as regards showing the map of Armenia/Artsakh?

The map of Artsakh is a major global geopolitical issue, its outcome can have very serious consequences internationally. Realize that it took Russia, a nuclear superpower, close to twenty years to bring Abkhazia and South Ossetia back under its fold and its will probably take another twenty years if not more to bring Crimea back to Russia. And here we are acting big over Artsakh. If the global community really wanted to get Armenians out of Artsakh do you actually think Armenia could successfully refuse? Anyway, the Armenian government is not going to compromise serious diplomacy or/or political maneuvering just to satisfy your whims, however good intentioned they may be. It may one day come down to pulling back from some of the areas in Artsakh, maybe not. However, the final determinant will not be based on our wishes, nor will the final determination be made by you, I, or even the Armenian president. Take a close look at who and what we are in the world today. There are 'much bigger' and 'much more powerful' forces at play here. Little hint: Russia is the key to our success. As long as Moscow sees our Armenia as a strategically important ally Artsakh is not going anywhere, and it may even further increase in size. Nonetheless, we all need to hope for the best. However, I have no doubt that the current administration in Yerevan can be fully trusted to do the right thing regarding Armenia/Artsakh.

Why does the Armenian government fail to react to the ''Khojaly suicide-massacres'' by brining the slaughter forward in Baku and Sumgait?

One of the more obvious answers here is - complacency. We are the victors, we have Russia's backing, we enjoy good relations with Iran, we enjoy good relations with the EU and the US... So, in a sense, we don't care. I agree with you that the government should be more aggressive and proactive regarding these types of matters.

I heard Seyran Ohanyan lives in a small appartment in downtown Yerevan,

In my opinion, Seyran Ohanian deserves a palace. He is one of our 'very few' professional and seasoned warriors. My respects for Sargsyan to recognize this about Ohanian.

I do not think ''true nationalist'' can save up tens of millions of dollars like our president Serge Sarkisyan and Robert Kocharian (tsakhadzor resort, companies, restaurants, bank), living in a villa whereas other brothers and sisters live in small boxes where they have been living in for 20 years after the Gyumri earthquake. No, a true nationalist would give all his money building new homes for our poor brothers and sisters throughout Armenia.

Enker, you are still very young, inexperienced and naive. You still need to understand the world you live in. And I mean no offense by saying this. I was the same... You are talking about 'human' failings. The Nazis, the epitome of nationalism, were guilty of the same crimes. In relative terms, the same could be said of every single nation on earth today, including the best of the West. Men will be men, and regardless of ideology there will always be gluttony, greed, and corruption amongst rulers. Don't forget, rulers of a nation reflect the people of the nation. I have absolutely no problems with Sargsyan making millions, if not billions, due to his connections as president. If anyone should be filthy rich it should be the president.

And all those Armos in LA, Beirut or Yerevan that complain about Sargsyan/Kocharyan doing this and that - would be the first ones doing this and that if they were in power.

My advise, learn to accept/understand/deal with the corruptible nature of mankind, you'll be a much happier person for it.

And don't believe in the majority of the stupid rumors revolving about Sargsyan and Kocharyan. Armenians, as a people, love to 'gossip' and 'destructive' gossip is what they excel in.

Let's please end this conversation.

[Armenian]

Armenian, you raise an important point here: You, I and every other self-respecting Armenian in the diaspora has the obligation to promote Armenia to compensate for our lack of resources. We, the grass roots of the surviving diaspora, have to take it upon ourselves to promote Armenia. Figure out how you can participate in promoting Armenian interests. In what ways do you believe tangible contributions can be made by Armenians worldwide? Keeping in mind the diversity of Armenians do you have more then one recommendation so that involvement can be on a wider scale and focused on multiple fronts?

You have raised a 'personal' question. Personal, in the sense that the answer to your question is dependent upon the capabilities of the individual answering it.

In my opinion, however, regardless of where an Armenian lives and who an Armenian is married to - be it Armenian, European, Middle Easterner or Asian - the primary task of an Armenian parent/parents is to raise first and foremost - Armenians. This is the 'fundamental' base from upon which the answer of your question can be derived from in the longterm. And raising Armenians essentially means raising a child that is secure with his/her identity, sees the Armenian Republic as his/her homeland and sees Armenians living there as compatriots. This is the fundamental key to solving all our problems. Each and everyone of us has an obligation, especially in the diaspora, to nurture a healthy sense of Armenianism in our offsprings. The sad reality of the matter is, however, the vast majority of the Armenian diaspora today as well as a significant portion of the Armenian population in our republic is either lost or worthless to the republic.

There are many things an individual can do to promote Armenia, use you imagination. Of the more immediate things that can be done are the following:

If wealthy, invest in the country. If entrepreneurial, start a business in the county. If professional, and financially secure, do your profession in the country. If young, and a citizen of the republic, serve in the military of the country. If a student in the diaspora, write your school thesis/paper/report on relevant Armenian topics. If a no body, try hard to become something in life.

Talk to your non-Armenian peers about your heritage and homeland. Post information on the web (discussion forums/YouTube) pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. Write articles in local Armenian papers pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. Partake in important community affairs that have to do with the Armenian Republic. Volunteer to serve within one of several organizations that carry out important cultural/social/professional services in the republic...

One can also support good Armenian organizations in the diaspora such as the ANC or the ARF. I also need to mention here that one should not support stooges in our communities that work for the US government, entities such as the Armenian Assembly and various English language news media outlets such as ArmeniaNow and Radio Liberty. Do not support or read materials produced by American based Armenian historians such as Nina Grsoian, Richard Hovanesian, Ronald Suny and director of Armenian studies at Harvard, James Russel, a Zionist xxx.

Nevertheless, and most of all, as the other members here have correctly stated, and it can't be overemphasized - we diasporans need to either move to Armenia or vacation there. At the very least, even if you don't do any of the above, I would like to see diasporan Armenians frequently visiting the Armenian republic and perhaps purchasing a home there, place where they can call home in the homeland.

It is said that there are around ten million Armenians in the world today, and many more if we take into account those assimilated during the past several generations. Just imagine. If a significant portion, not even a majority, perhaps 1/4 or 1/3 of out total population, did any of the above, Armenia would be a powerful self-sustaining/self-reliant nation. The potential is there.

And there is no need to engage in pessimistic talk about none of this coming to fruition because of this or that...

Just do 'your' part. Take it upon 'yourself' to do it and set a good example for others. You can be one of the greatest promotions/assets/tools/resources of the Armenian Republic.

Regardless of where one lives Armenia should be consider homeland

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/1516978.jpg

Վարդանանք http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hivQiSAEAC4&NR=1

This is Armenia! [Part 1]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rplovmZKNYI

This is Armenia! [Part 2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECmtdhSjcFk&feature=related

Armenia (CNN commercial): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=addR8C-8qJs

Armenia on CNN (Part2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uAb0KO-RYc&feature=related

[Armenian]

Speaking of asswipes in America that call themselves historians of Armenian studies, or even worst, Armenologists, the following series of video presentations reveal how individuals, or groups of individuals, can promote Armenia and Armenian heritage simply by vociferously denouncing self-hating Armenians, foreign agents and revisionist historians in our midst.

Note: Some years ago I used to write about various issues relating to Armenia in various Armenian newspapers, including denunciations of so-called Armenian historians, including the Zionist James Russel. Seeing that some of my writings were getting a lot of attention I stopped. I then decided to put my writings on the web, anonymously, for young Armenians to read.

Falsifiers of Armenian History Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6VrO2WBx4A

Falsifiers of Armenian History Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmuEY0xa-xQ

Falsifiers of Armenian History Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faicWRgxwaA

And here is a very interesting exchange between the Zionist director of Armenian studies at Harvard and a lone courageous Armenian warrior with a camera. Just think, how could American-Armenians allow such filth become director of Armenian studies at Harvard. I rather have no department of Armenian studies if this is our only choice. And it's a shame that this anti-Armenian Zionist speaks better Armenian than most of you "proud nationalists" here...

VARDANANK J Russell PART 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn6jseb5jHM

VARDANANK J Russell PART 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixGmJCTOF0Q

VARDANANK J Russell PART 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b81X7vP7tw

[Lucin]

And here is a very interesting exchange between the Zionist director of Armenian studies at Harvard and a lone courageous Armenian warrior with a camera. Just think, how could American-Armenians allow such filth become director of Armenian studies at Harvard. I rather have no department of Armenian studies if this is our only choice. And it's a shame that this anti-Armenian Zionist speaks better Armenian than most of you "proud nationalists" here...

VARDANANK J Russell PART 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn6jseb5jHM

VARDANANK J Russell PART 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixGmJCTOF0Q

VARDANANK J Russell PART 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b81X7vP7tw

Thank you for bringing this into our attention. It's amazing how he avoids looking in the eyes of the reporter like a frightened mouse. You can tell his eyes are lying. I think Armen Ayvazian has also denounced him, not sure what he had said.

[Armenian]

A little dose of classic Armenology...

http://www.vahagnevishapakax.com/pages/hayots_xach.jpg

ՆԵՄՐՈՒԹ ԼԵՌ ՀԱՅԵՐԵՆ ՄԱՍ_1_ԻՆ NEMRUT LER ARMENIAN PART_1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWC02_EP7Uo

ՆԵՄՐՈՒԹ ԼԵՌ ՀԱՅԵՐԵՆ ՄԱՍ_2_ՐԴ NEMRUT LER ARMENIAN PART_2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gym2DDRn4V0

ՆԵՄՐՈՒԹ ԼԵՌ ՀԱՅԵՐԵՆ ՄԱՍ_3_ՐԴ NEMRUT LER ARMENIAN PART_3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmV1lKbnQZg

ՏԻԳՐԱՆ ՄԵԾ ՄԱՍ_1_ԻՆ TIGRAN METS PART_1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3ySsSBFh9c

ՏԻԳՐԱՆ ՄԵԾ ՄԱՍ_2_ՐԴ TIGRAN METS PART_2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh81Bz3v8I8

ՏԻԳՐԱՆ ՄԵԾ ՄԱՍ_3_ՐԴ TIGRAN METS PART_3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u28_WMfNPzA

ՆԵՄՐՈՒԹ ԼԵՌ ՀԱՅԵՐԵՆ ՄԱՍ_4_ՐԴ NEMRUT LER ARMENIAN PART_4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhgvB3JFjHo&NR=1

ՆԵՄՐՈՒԹ ԼԵՌ ՀԱՅԵՐԵՆ ՄԱՍ_5_ՐԴ NEMRUT LER ARMENIAN PART_5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI9WMSAICbU

ԱՐ ԱՐԱՐԻՉ ՄԱՍ_1_ԻՆ AR ARARICH PART_1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt2n35bDVkw

ԱՐ ԱՐԱՐԻՉ ՄԱՍ_2_ՐԴ AR ARARICH PART_2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I__qfJGfmcc

ՀԱՅԿ ՆԱՀԱՊԵՏ ՄԱՍ_2_ՐԴ HYK NAHAPET PART_2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mwbIHbImDs

ՀԱՅԿ ՆԱՀԱՊԵՏ ՄԱՍ_1_ԻՆ HYK NAHAPET PART_1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKA-v0VFRS0

ԾԱԳՈՒՄԸ ՄԱՍ_1_ԻՆ TSAGUME PART_1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgPXL0WuDrU

ԾԱԳՈՒՄԸ ՄԱՍ_2_ՐԴ TSAGUME PART_2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVVVyVme95w

ԱՐԱՏՏԱ ՄԱՍ_1_ԻՆ ARATTA PART_1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcgoqjuvxbQ

ԱՐԱՏՏԱ ՄԱՍ_2_ՐԴ ARATTA PART_2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JprbzfP0g_g

ԾԻՐԱՆ ՄԱՍ_1_ԻՆ TSIRAN PART_1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhnZoU--9Ss

ԾԻՐԱՆ ՄԱՍ_2_ՐԴ TSIRAN PART_2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjnMa9o92kA

ԽԵԹԵՐԸ ՄԱՍ_1_ԻՆ XETERE PART_1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKBlUIgYE5o

ԽԵԹԵՐԸ ՄԱՍ_2_ՐԴ XETERE PART_2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfUD3oQXqrs

Աղբյուր: http://www.youtube.com/user/alosevan

[Tigranakert]

I have watched the video's of the Falsifiers of Armenian History. Thank you for sharing this interesting video, I heard about this some time ago but I did not know these falsifications were made in such a large scale. What about the Armenian organizations in America, doesn't the ANCA respond to these allegations?

In the Netherlands there is also a ''professor'' of Armenian studies, he is also, by ''coincidience'', a j-e-w. His name is Weitenberg. If i'm not wrong, he came to the conclusion that Ararat was not an ancient holy Armenian mountain, and he has even Armenian students who believe him. What did we do that the j-e-w-s are so scared of us Armenians and the truth?

[jgk3]

excelling banking and commerce maybe?

[Anonymouse]

Hopefully, Siamanto will reads this and at least soften his/her stance on labeling Kim Kardashian as Hye. ;)

Siamanto's argument has no credibility and was effectively shot down.

[Anonymouse]

Armenian, freaky, crusader and Karo:

I have cleaned up this thread. This is a warning to you 4 to stop engaging in insults and keep the thread topical and troll free. The next step is closing the thread.

[Armenian]

Thank you for bringing this into our attention. It's amazing how he avoids looking in the eyes of the reporter like a frightened mouse. You can tell his eyes are lying. I think Armen Ayvazian has also denounced him, not sure what he had said.

I have also publicly denounced him, in quite strong terms. What upsets me most is how some in our communities, especially in America, promote him and his agenda. Nonetheless, did you catch his confession about his kin when he said - not all xxxs were Young Turks? This is priceless:

"I have to tell you a few things. First of all I'm xxxish. Secondly, I'm Safardic. Safardic. My mother's native language was Spanish. She's from Salonika. Եէնի Թուրք չէ. ոչ, Եէնի Թուրք չեմ... որպեսզի սխալ չմբրնես, you know, not all Safardic xxxs are Young Turks. OK?"

James Russel (part 5 @ 4:25)

Thank you for sharing this interesting video, I heard about this some time ago but I did not know these falsifications were made in such a large scale. What about the Armenian organizations in America, doesn't the ANCA respond to these allegations?

The troubling part here is that these non-Armenian revisionists have the active support of various well known diasporan Armenian historians. I have been complaining about this situation for many years but they have been falling on deaf ears...

In the Netherlands there is also a ''professor'' of Armenian studies, he is also, by ''coincidience'', a j-e-w. His name is Weitenberg. If i'm not wrong, he came to the conclusion that Ararat was not an ancient holy Armenian mountain, and he has even Armenian students who believe him. What did we do that the j-e-w-s are so scared of us Armenians and the truth?

This is typical western academia regarding Armenian studies, and for some reason these people for the most part end up being xxxs... Strange. No? I can't answer what their xxxxing problem is with us because what they do goes beyond their political alliance with the Turkish state.

[Sip]

It is very difficult for those who still see the world in terms of geographic boundaries to understand that there can in fact be an "Armenian Nation" beyond the traditional territorial boundaries. This is not to say that it will automatically thrive and continue to evolve without significant efforts ... but the possibility is there and it is real.

[Anoush]

Based on the above-mentioned strategic considerations I will attempt to answer the question: "who is an Armenian?" and in what way is s/he differentiated from an Armenian by birth.
One is an Armenian if s/he:
1) considers Armenia his/her only homeland within two dimensions of time and territory – in her historic and present boundaries;
2) has strong psychological attachments to his homeland – its territory, people, language and culture;
3) feels personal responsibility for Armenia’s fate and assumes political obligations towards it;
4) if living abroad, seriously contemplates avenues for his and his family’s repatriation;
5) either is or tries to become the bearer of the Armenian language and culture;
6) strives to maintain his offsprings Armenian, including by means of passing on to them the knowledge of the Armenian language and by bringing them into the realm of the national culture. Those of our compatriots who consider the country of their birth or citizenship and not Armenia as their homeland, who do not feel psychological attachments and political responsibility towards Armenia, who do not wish to think about living in the Homeland, who do not seek to be the bearers of the Armenian language, who consciously or unconsciously have reconciled with and are not concerned about the inevitable assimilation of their offsprings, can be considered Armenians by origin only, because, in reality, they are already either cosmopolitans or representatives of another nationality. Indeed, it does not matter at all if they shout from the rooftops that they are the most real and authentic Armenians (a genuine self-deception!). The fact is that these individuals, regardless of the reasons, are beyond the nation’s life-process and do not partake in its subsistence even at its most fateful moment.
the most natural and functionally strongest ethnically differentiating characteristic feature of an Armenian is the acknowledgment and assumption of personal responsibility –


I totally agree with Prof. Ayvazian for anyone who doesn't feel personal responsibility stemming from their hearts and souls worrying every given moment what is going on politically, socially and economically in Armenia with a deep concern for her survival; for a deep desire to go back soon or even one day; for a deep concern to bring our offsprings Armenian, culturally and with knowledge and feelings towards Armenia and Armenians; not to regard Armenia to be his/her true country with deep feelings towards her; and finally not having a desire if the need be to go to Armenia and fight and die for her then that individual is not considered an Armenian.

With a deep sorrow in my heart that I don't see as many American Armenians feeling in their souls what Ayvazian so truthfully mentioned above the true Armenians vs. the others who are by name only that will cease to be Armenians in a matter of time only.

I believe I've mentioned it before that my own mother was recently asked by a Rev. Father what she thinks for the future of Armenians in the States or abroad - the Diaspora - in general; and her answer was not good at all. Today to stay a real Armenian, you must have had a very strong rooted family background who were themselves very patriotic and were involved in cultural or patriotic events or committees and inspired you to get you involved in everyday Armenian cultural centers, to be part in committees, or to be involved with the Church and finally having read our literature and also some of the nationalistically derived literature. To feel it in your core the need, the desire and the concern for the survival of our language, culture, nationalistic pursuits and the sacred land which is our only real hope for the final and the basic survival of Armenians.

[Anoush]

For the record, people like Kardashian are certainly not regarded to be Armenian. She is Armenian by name only and soon will cease to be one even by name. The same applies unfortunately to the majority of the Armenian Americans.

[Sip]

... or to be involved with the Church ...

There have been Armenians loooooooooooooong before the Church and hopefully there will be Armenians loooooooong after we manage to purge this mental disease from our collective psyche.

[Anoush]

There have been Armenians loooooooooooooong before the Church and hopefully there will be Armenians loooooooong after we manage to purge this mental disease from our collective psyche.

You are obviously not getting through your skull that it is not only the Church that was mentioned but within the domain of the Church and around it there are cultural, ethnical, linguistic and even revolutionary entities of our nationality and our nationalistic pursuits that have instilled and continues to instill all of the above to maintain our faith and the desire to stay Armenian and even to live as an Armenian within our hosted countries. Finally to get-together and socialize with other Armenians and hopefully for our children one day to intermarry to preserve our entity for as long as it is possible in our hosted countries until that day that hopefully a good many of us will repatriate.

[jgk3]

The church represents something both positive (but not necessarily novel towards civilization) and negative for all of the nations it historically dominated.

But like it or not, what we Armenians have for a church is pretty damn good in keeping our communities alive and echoing a not so bastardized pre-christian spiritual ethos.

If someday, Armenians are able to confidently, with conquering spirit, unitedly resurrect to their pre-christian manifestation and life with fire and temples, then it will happen. But these sentiments can also lead us to hell and disorder if we aren't spiritually ready for such a monumental shift. No Armenian should want to overthrow Christianity and invoke chaos.

Honestly, I'm perfectly fine with the dedication of Armenians towards their church which is distinctly their own. I may not submit to dogmas of direct devotion to Christ, but I recognize the positive stability he represents for our nation and civilization.

[Anoush]

Amen jgk3 true true.

[Tigranakert]

Anoush and jgk3, I totally agree with you. The Armenian church is a special and a very positive thing for our nation.

Today to stay a real Armenian, you must have had a very strong rooted family background who were themselves very patriotic and were involved in cultural or patriotic events or committees and inspired you to get you involved in everyday Armenian cultural centers, to be part in committees, or to be involved with the Church and finally having read our literature and also some of the nationalistically derived literature.

I do not agree with this one, as much as it is the ideal situation to grow up in, it is not always true. I have grown up fleeing Iran with my parents, I have lived my entire live in the Netherlands and as we had many difficulties, the Armenian factor did not play a huge role in our live. Also I did not have any Armenian family members in the Netherlands, so we were totally not involved in Armenian politics, culture nor the Church. Luckily I was only allowed to speak Armenian at home, and I thank my mother for that.

The most important thing for Armenians to be connected with our motherland and thus becoming a true Armenian, are two things.
1. Reading our literature and nationalistically derived literature.
2. Visiting Armenia.

I personally know true nationalistic, patriotic and proud Armenians. They are Armenians from Iraq and Turkey. They do not speak Armenian, their family members do not have a connection with Armenia. Some of their cousins are even anti-Armenian. But because they have read about the Armenian history and culture, they fell in love with Armenia. They plan to visit Armenia this summer and are learning Armenian right now.

That is why I think the new programs like ''Ari Tun'' will be a major success. The Diasporan Armenian youth can visit the motherland and in the meantime, learn and read about our history and culture.

[Anonymouse]

You are obviously not getting through your skull

Sip has every right to express his opinion on this forum no less than you.

This is to all of you in this thread when these cliche topics resurface lets be as polite as possible.

[Lucin]

I have also publicly denounced him, in quite strong terms. What upsets me most is how some in our communities, especially in America, promote him and his agenda. Nonetheless, did you catch his confession about his kin when he said - not all xxxs were Young Turks? This is priceless:

"I have to tell you a few things. First of all I'm xxxish. Secondly, I'm Safardic. Safardic. My mother's native language was Spanish. She's from Salonika. Եէնի Թուրք չէ. ոչ, Եէնի Թուրք չեմ... որպեսզի սխալ չմբրնես, you know, not all Safardic xxxs are Young Turks. OK?"

James Russel (part 5 @ 4:25)


Wow, I don't know what else he should have said to reveal his true colours...
And what is more disturbing is that his teacher has been an Armenian woman apparently, if I heard it right. Nina Garsoian??

There have been Armenians loooooooooooooong before the Church and hopefully there will be Armenians loooooooong after

Yes!

we manage to purge this mental disease from our collective psyche.

No! How does what you call "mental disease" bother you, Sip?

[Anoush]

Anoush and jgk3, I totally agree with you. The Armenian church is a special and a very positive thing for our nation.



I do not agree with this one, as much as it is the ideal situation to grow up in, it is not always true. I have grown up fleeing Iran with my parents, I have lived my entire live in the Netherlands and as we had many difficulties, the Armenian factor did not play a huge role in our live. Also I did not have any Armenian family members in the Netherlands, so we were totally not involved in Armenian politics, culture nor the Church. Luckily I was only allowed to speak Armenian at home, and I thank my mother for that.

The most important thing for Armenians to be connected with our motherland and thus becoming a true Armenian, are two things.
1. Reading our literature and nationalistically derived literature.
2. Visiting Armenia.

I personally know true nationalistic, patriotic and proud Armenians. They are Armenians from Iraq and Turkey. They do not speak Armenian, their family members do not have a connection with Armenia. Some of their cousins are even anti-Armenian. But because they have read about the Armenian history and culture, they fell in love with Armenia. They plan to visit Armenia this summer and are learning Armenian right now.

That is why I think the new programs like ''Ari Tun'' will be a major success. The Diasporan Armenian youth can visit the motherland and in the meantime, learn and read about our history and culture.

It is because I came from such patriotically derived family background who were involved with the community; then I was also involved for a while, I always thought that in good part that's why I feel the way I do. But your point is very well taken Tigranakert; because as a child I loved to read Armenian literature and I also fell in love with my nationality and our land when I read them. Yes my family introduced me and very much encouraged me; but what I really got close to was the knowledge and the education I got from reading about them.

And of course I agree for visiting our homeland. But the initial step is to read and become knowledgeable about our culture, anscestors, history and homeland.

Let me point out in here though that I would think that most Armenians would be very much connected with pride and with love towards their homeland and her preservation after reading our vast and rich Armenian literature; but not necessarily everyone. And then there are many others that don't even give a care to read them. Especially the ones who do not I don't think there would be much hope for them that they will or their future offsprings will remain Armenian.

[Gavur]

To stay Armenian you need to marry an Armenian.

[Anoush]

To stay Armenian you need to marry an Armenian.

Gavur, are you Armenian?

[Pazooki]

Gavur, are you Armenian?

I know I am.

:)

Long time no see.

How you been Anoush jan?

[Sip]

No! How does what you call "mental disease" bother you, Sip?

It bothers me when people try to stick "Christianity" right in the list of requirements to be Armenian. Thankfully, communism went a long way of purging some of this religious cultism out of mainstream Armenia but still a lot of old-timers (and unfortunately some of the youth) still see the church as being central to the Armenian identity where in my opinion, it has outlived its usefulness.

The main problem is, that I personally hate for this to turn into Armenians considering themselves less "Armenian" when they slowly discover they can't really identify with the church (or any church for that matter) anymore. In a sense, we have two kinds of attrition going on ... the cultural one where Armenians are slowly dissolving into other cultures (especially in the disaspora) and the religious one where people are slowly waking up from the 2000 year old Jesus-induced coma ... and it's not just an Armenian phenomena.

[Anoush]

I know I am.

:)

Long time no see.

How you been Anoush jan?

Just fine and happy to be here Sero jan, thank you. :) This is a good place to be in! :)

[Anoush]

It bothers me when people try to stick "Christianity" right in the list of requirements to be Armenian. Thankfully, communism went a long way of purging some of this religious cultism out of mainstream Armenia but still a lot of old-timers (and unfortunately some of the youth) still see the church as being central to the Armenian identity where in my opinion, it has outlived its usefulness.

The main problem is, that I personally hate for this to turn into Armenians considering themselves less "Armenian" when they slowly discover they can't really identify with the church (or any church for that matter) anymore. In a sense, we have two kinds of attrition going on ... the cultural one where Armenians are slowly dissolving into other cultures (especially in the disaspora) and the religious one where people are slowly waking up from the 2000 year old Jesus-induced coma ... and it's not just an Armenian phenomena.

I realize you answered to Lucin, I am pretty sure she'll answer you at her time. But I want to add something to what I said above for your knowledge and to enlighten you; just in case you didn't know or realised it until now. Whether you are an old timer or a new timer, the Church in the States and around the globe is not alone by Itself. There are two main parties within the Armenian communities; the Echmiadsin Church is linked with Ramgavars and the Antelias Church in Lebanon is linked with Tashnagtsoutyoun. You think people are simply going to Church only? Around the Churches there are committees and associations. Such as Hamazkain Association, the HOM or "Hay Oknoutyan Mioutyoun" which is the Red Cross of Armenians and works benevolently mostly nowadays for Armenia by creating hospitals, youth centers and the likes. They especially helped Armenians from the motherland when the earthquake happened. They sent them people with food, clothing, etc. etc. and there is the Saturday Armenian School, the Ladies Guild and Men's Club, the Armenian Boy Scouts, to name a few. On the part of Ramgavar Association, they have the AGBU and the Church has various other committees and associations who also helped the people who were effected from the earthquake in the homeland. They have Saturday Schools, etc. etc. So you see, the Church gathers the whole of the Armenian communities around it and that way the communities not only floorish the Church but by socializing and working together for the Church and also for the communities' various sub committees, it gives them a hope or a way to assymilate less and be connected to our homeland and our roots.

Whether I am of Christian belief or whether you are not is not the question here. The Church is still controlled pretty much with the two main existing Armenian parties and they see to it that the communities not only floorish but they do good for our homeland, especially now that we have a free RA.

Perhaps communism has worked for 70 years in Armenia and Armenians remained as such because we had a land, as small as it was but it was our land and mostly Armenians lived in there (preserving their language and their culture) because they were in their own homeland; but in the diaspora, for a century now the Church and Its surrounding communities was and still is the cornerstone for diasporans hopefully not to vanish and not to assymilate and somehow be connected with their anscestral national roots, to one another and to their homeland.

[gmd]

It bothers me when people try to stick "Christianity" right in the list of requirements to be Armenian. Thankfully, communism went a long way of purging some of this religious cultism out of mainstream Armenia but still a lot of old-timers (and unfortunately some of the youth) still see the church as being central to the Armenian identity where in my opinion, it has outlived its usefulness.

The main problem is, that I personally hate for this to turn into Armenians considering themselves less "Armenian" when they slowly discover they can't really identify with the church (or any church for that matter) anymore. In a sense, we have two kinds of attrition going on ... the cultural one where Armenians are slowly dissolving into other cultures (especially in the disaspora) and the religious one where people are slowly waking up from the 2000 year old Jesus-induced coma ... and it's not just an Armenian phenomena.


On the topic of religon in culture, especially Armenian, I have to agree with you Sip.

[Gavur]

Gavur, are you Armenian?
Greek,Armenian,why?

[Gavur]

There have been Armenians loooooooooooooong before the Church and hopefully there will be Armenians loooooooong after we manage to purge this mental disease from our collective psyche.
To each his own.

[Lucin]

It bothers me when people try to stick "Christianity" right in the list of requirements to be Armenian. Thankfully, communism went a long way of purging some of this religious cultism out of mainstream Armenia but still a lot of old-timers (and unfortunately some of the youth) still see the church as being central to the Armenian identity where in my opinion, it has outlived its usefulness.

The main problem is, that I personally hate for this to turn into Armenians considering themselves less "Armenian" when they slowly discover they can't really identify with the church (or any church for that matter) anymore. In a sense, we have two kinds of attrition going on ... the cultural one where Armenians are slowly dissolving into other cultures (especially in the disaspora) and the religious one where people are slowly waking up from the 2000 year old Jesus-induced coma ... and it's not just an Armenian phenomena.

Surprisingly, the past year or so, I have encountered so many Armenians like you who have no affinities with the church or any religious teachings in general that I have somewhat changed my opinion on the matter. These are all decent Armenians that I would certainly not discard them as being "less Armenian", nor do they feel insecure or uncomfortale themselves about their Armenianness. So, it'd be tolerable and somehow acceptable for me (a christian) as long as it remains on an individual level with no organized effort to force it upon other people and propagate.

[Haykakan]

So, it'd be tolerable and somehow acceptable for me (a christian) as long as it remains on an individual level with no organized effort to force it upon other people and propagate.

I feel the exact same way only about the church lol.Kinda strange that you think its ok for the church to recruit but not for people who have other perspectives.

[Pazooki]

I mean, I'm Christian Sip Jan. Before that I was Atheist. You can't disagree with it. I don't go to Church and I don't disagree with you either. You gotta respect Christianity and the first Armenian Churches because thats how we started out and thats what we fought for.

[dikranagert]

All excellent points!

You should know that our greatest empire and military might was during our pagan years :)

Being Armenian = Feeling Armenian and putting those feelings into action via time, energy, and money to advance causes important to us worldwide starting with the growth and security of Armenia , AG recognition and reperations, and slowing down assimilation.

Dikranagert

[Anoush]

I agree that one shouldn't donate egregious amounts of money in the diaspora (outside of cultural/language programs, and even church renovations). This is why I support primarily charities that are based in and working towards improving the Republic such as FAR.
I must find out how to get in touch with FAR.

I think a good many young Armenians from LA or around intend to go back to our Homeland. But one thing for sure; despite the fact that most of us are connected to our Homeland spiritually; but it's not enough when physically we are not connected yet. The physical must follow the spiritual for us to be called true Armenians.

[Federate]

Who is an Armenian?

“What if an Armenian was Muslim or Bahai, or Hindu?” the question is asked one day during a conversation about ethnic identity and why it was tied into religious identity.

There are those, mostly scholars in Armenia, who vehemently deny the Armenian ethnic identity to anyone who is not of the Christian faith, particularly of the Orthodox persuasion. They claim that being Armenian automatically assumes and implies Christianity.

This logic would be acceptable except for the fact that Armenians, as an ethnic group, existed long before Christianity or their conversion to it in a bloody and violent manner. The switch to the religion that now identifies us was not a peaceful one and St. Gregory the Illuminator himself waged the war.

Armenia, two millennia ago, had a varied population. Strategically located at the crossroads of the region, many cultures passed through the area while some chose to make it their permanent home. As a result, the Armenia of that day was culturally diverse, religiously tolerant and very cosmopolitan.

Legend has it that upon King Drtad’s miraculous cure at the hands of St. Gregory the Illuminator, he immediately converted to the magical new religion and proclaimed Armenia to now be a Christian state. Everyone was to set aside their previous religious beliefs which they’d held for hundreds of years in favor of a new one and live happily ever after in the afterglow of their new found religion. But the story doesn’t end there. Or even begin there.

King Drtad was the infant son of Khosrov II when he was assassinated by Anak, an Armenian operating as an agent for the Persian Empire. St. Gregory was the son of Anak who, as an adult, returned to Armenia and worked for King Drtad without informing him of his true identity.

The legend taught to Armenian children today does not include this fact. Completely ignoring it, it skips directly to St. Gregory’s time spent in the dungeon for being a Christian. In reality, his incarceration came about because of the king’s discovery of the assistant’s true heritage. Which king wouldn’t imprison the son of his father’s assassin?

The story goes on to say that after Drtad is cured of his illness at the hands of Gregory, he becomes a believer of Christianity. As a young king, Drtad fought hard to liberate Armenia and create a quasi independent state. His country’s conversion to the upstart religion was the final break from his Roman and Persian neighbors at a time when religion affiliation was a key tool that set a nation apart.

The process of becoming peace-loving Christians was anything but peaceful or loving. The legend of Drtad omits the key part of the story by ignoring the ‘how’ of the conversion. Although begun peacefully, it soon turned violent when nobles, priests and their followers of the prevailing faiths resisted the efforts of the state. The forced conversion of hundreds of thousands of people had other purposes besides spreading the word of God. Under the guise of religion, Kind Drtad was able to purge his land of political opposition and enemy agents and confiscate the wealth of the existing temples. Everyone was either forced to convert or lose their heads. His right-hand man in this war was none other than St. Gregory, the founder of the Armenian Orthodox church. His greatest supporter and passionate advocate of the effort was Ashkhen, Drtad’s wife who was not Armenian.

In one brief decade, Armenia went from a culturally diverse nation without an official national language to one that espoused uniformity and conformity where the use of Armenian became a requirement and strictly enforced. Survival is a basic human instinct and many did convert rather than lose their heads. Some of the descendants of those who chose to convert almost two millennia ago were, in the early part of the 20th century, forced to make yet another difficult choice: convert or die, but this time to Islam.

Why is identity tied to faith? What about Armenians that are Orthodox but don’t speak a word of the language or know any of the history? What of the Armenian of mixed heritage with the overwhelming love and enthusiasm for the Armenian culture who practices another religion? Do they qualify?

At a recent photo exhibit, Harry, a well known photographer, gave a contextual explanation of one of his photos that looked like nothing more than Muslim village women escaping a flood while holding their children to their breast. The real story is that they were Kurdish women, who after the death of their children and the hardships they endured, were allowed by Turkey to emigrate to Germany. “But the best part,” said Harry, “is that when going through customs and registering their names in their new home country, each one of them gave an Armenian name.” They reclaimed their original identity. “Now, they even have a nice little community with a church.”

Today, in the remote corners of what was once a part of greater Armenia and is now Turkey, there exists a substantial group of Armenians who have almost all converted to Islam. Although they maintain their Armenian identity and their distinctive Armenian dialect, they do not practice the espoused religion of Christianity. Do we consider them to be Armenian?

It is estimated that there are several million “hidden” Armenians in Turkey and the surrounding areas. A little-thought of side effect of the Armenian-Turkish protocols and the resulting improved relations between the two countries may be just the encouragement and motivation these Armenians need to stand up and reclaim their roots and fortify our numbers. Can we deny them their Armenian identity? Can we afford not to?

http://www.asbarez.com/2009/11/20/who-is-an-armenian/

[Alex deLarge]

Although I don't mean to deny anyone the opporunity of exploring various religions, the Armenian Church is very much embedded in our culture and vice versa. As an agnostic/deist and a very strong Armenian nationalst, I can openly say that I support the strengthening of the Armenian Church within our culture in order to keep a homogenous Armenian society. Once one broaches their spiritual ideals with anything other than the Armenian church it will undoubtedly lead to an erosion of Armenian culture within that person's family and eventually help in bringing about the demise of our nation.

[hipeter924]

The Armenian Church can still be kept strong in a secular society, and even if many Armenian's didn't attend or if some turned to other faiths I still think that Armenian culture would survive as it did before the arrival of Christianity into Armenia. I think the dangerous scenario you are talking about could occur only if people forgot the Armenian Church's role in the history of Armenia (and how it kept Armenia alive through Stalin's terror and the USSR), personally I don't see the Armenian church ending anytime soon but if it did you would hope Armenia turned Agnostic Theist and/or Atheist and not Islam which is the faith of Armenia's worst enemies Azerbaijan and Turkey.

[KanadaHye]

Nobody is Armenian, we're a bunch of lost wanderers who don't have a place in the world. We can't agree on our politics, our history, our culture or our time tested faith. At this rate, there will be more Armenian churches standing in the world than actual people who can associate themselves with being Armenian. I'm sure other people will enjoy using our establishments for their weddings and ceremonies seeing that many Armenians are abandoning their traditions.

[Alex deLarge]

The Armenian Church can still be kept strong in a secular society, and even if many Armenian's didn't attend or if some turned to other faiths I still think that Armenian culture would survive as it did before the arrival of Christianity into Armenia. I think the dangerous scenario you are talking about could occur only if people forgot the Armenian Church's role in the history of Armenia (and how it kept Armenia alive through Stalin's terror and the USSR), personally I don't see the Armenian church ending anytime soon but if it did you would hope Armenia turned Agnostic Theist and/or Atheist and not Islam which is the faith of Armenia's worst enemies Azerbaijan and Turkey.

Although I understand your point, I have had the unfortunate experiences of meeting, what I would call former or ex, Armenians who have turned to religious cults such as Jehovah's witnesses in southern California. I have even met Armenians who allow their children to marry/date non-Armenians as long as they are Christians. It is this separation from the Armenian Church, which I am witnessing to a small extent in front of my own eyes, that I was referring to. If I had a say I'd like to see Armenians turn away from too much spirituality in general, in favor of the cultivation and progression of their culture and quality of life.

[Haykakan]

It is funny that you guys conveniently forget that there were Armenians and armenian culture long before there was christianity. Christianity is just another religion and it is not the sole influence either, many of our pagan rituals and beliefs still persist and long predate christianity, things like matagh and the blue eye... Should christianity vanish somehow it will not mean the end of Armenian culture. In Armenia and in Artsagh the official armenian church pushes the governments there to pass laws which are in no uncertain terms discriminitory vs other religions. Armenia has too much homogeny and it needs more diversity not the other way around.

[KanadaHye]

It is funny that you guys conveniently forget that there were Armenians and armenian culture long before there was christianity. Christianity is just another religion and it is not the sole influence either, many of our pagan rituals and beliefs still persist and long predate christianity, things like matagh and the blue eye... Should christianity vanish somehow it will not mean the end of Armenian culture. In Armenia and in Artsagh the official armenian church pushes the governments there to pass laws which are in no uncertain terms discriminitory vs other religions. Armenia has too much homogeny and it needs more diversity not the other way around.

So we can now be referred to the people formerly known as Armenians since we are no longer a homogenous group. Diversity is good for corporations and governments, not for people.

[Anoush]

Although I understand your point, I have had the unfortunate experiences of meeting, what I would call former or ex, Armenians who have turned to religious cults such as Jehovah's witnesses in southern California. I have even met Armenians who allow their children to marry/date non-Armenians as long as they are Christians. It is this separation from the Armenian Church, which I am witnessing to a small extent in front of my own eyes, that I was referring to. If I had a say I'd like to see Armenians turn away from too much spirituality in general, in favor of the cultivation and progression of their culture and quality of life.

Hi Alex, I like your way of thinking for the consistency and the continuation of the Armenian race/nationality and culture. I agree with you 100% that just because we are and other nationalities are Christians as well we have to abandon our Armenianness and go and marry any other Christian. Nor do I believe or like Jehova's witnesses, despite the fact that I am very much Christian but never to the extent of abandoning my Armenianness to allow my offspring marry any other nationality. I have read that Jehova's witnesses are of xxxish origin and not the Christian faith as we know it. I follow the Armenian Apostolic Church and faith. ARMENIAN 100% or I'd like to believe that I am. :) Again I sympathise with you for the preservation of our nationality, as it is the super powers are trying to pull us apart (Armenia and the Diaspora), we certainly don't need any of the separations from within; be it in faith or otherwise.

[Anoush]

So we can now be referred to the people formerly known as Armenians since we are no longer a homogenous group. Diversity is good for corporations and governments, not for people.

Yes I know KndHye jan, as it is we have too much diversity and separations from within, we do not need any more of it. You know of course that there are so many parties in Armenia alone; and in the Diaspora as we know it. One thing though, since the protocols I've noticed that the ARF, Henchagians and Ramgavar parties are agreeing together and sticking with each other about it. Let them agree more than separate, that's what I say. :)

[Anoush]

I mean, I'm Christian Sip Jan. Before that I was Atheist. You can't disagree with it. I don't go to Church and I don't disagree with you either. You gotta respect Christianity and the first Armenian Churches because thats how we started out and thats what we fought for.

I love your avatar Pazook, who is the cute baby? Not yours, not yet, right? ;)
Cute baby though. :)

[Armanen]

It is funny that you guys conveniently forget that there were Armenians and armenian culture long before there was christianity. Christianity is just another religion and it is not the sole influence either, many of our pagan rituals and beliefs still persist and long predate christianity, things like matagh and the blue eye... Should christianity vanish somehow it will not mean the end of Armenian culture. In Armenia and in Artsagh the official armenian church pushes the governments there to pass laws which are in no uncertain terms discriminitory vs other religions. Armenia has too much homogeny and it needs more diversity not the other way around.


Christianity is and should continue to be given preeminence among the faiths practiced in Armenia. I don't know what hang up you have with Christianity but it shouldn't blind you from understanding that it is one of the pillars of modern Armenian identity, which isn't a bad thing at all. If reason and logic is all a person has to grasp on to then I pity him.

And what Armenia needs is more Armenians to populate its various marzer and cities/towns not otars. Enough with this globalist agenda.

[Catharsis]

And what Armenia needs is more Armenians to populate its various marzer and cities/towns not otars. Enough with this globalist agenda.

I agree with you Armanen, right now with all the talk of border opening and the "welcoming" of Turkish and Kurdish "neighbors" we are going to get a taste of "diversity" in its negative sense as Armenian identity will be diluted with sheer numbers. Kars province today is also heavily populated by Azeri Turks who will now once again get a chance to monopolize the vegetable/fruit market in Armenia as they had done so before 1989-1990.