Baron Dants's anti-corruption plan!

[xBaron Dants]

Alright ladies and gents: an inside scoop to one of the actions that will revolutionize Armenia in the not too distant future! :D

THE CREATION OF THE SPURK BUSINESS ASSOCIATION

This is a project I WILL undertake (and no, I don't even need to be in government to do this).

It is an idea that came to me when I heard many many armenians from the diaspora tell me that they would love to start a business in Armenia.....BUT! they are afraid of the corruption.

My very simple idea to counter this would be to create an association of all diasporan businesses in Armenia (there are already quite a few, but maaany more are needed, we need MASSIVE investments for this to work out). This association will be affliliated with the armenian-american bar, the canadian-armenian bar, and every other armenian lawyer associations around the world (including Armenia's own). It would have a few full-time lawyers working for it full time, in Yerevan...with advice from the armenian bars around the world.

If, a business affiliated with the organization is victim of corruption, it reports to the organization, who complains to the proper authorities. The complaints should have a lot of weight as the organization would have multi-million dollar investors behind it, that the government can't afford to lose. We can therefore expect quite a few corrupt officials to get fired....and many more to clean up their act.

Some investment may be needed in the beginning, but it can eventually be self-sufficient if the members pay small fees to obtain this "protection". Once it has reached self-suffiency, local businesses can join (they could ideally join from the beginning, but the organization must first be strong enough to support all the potential members).

[TigranJamharian]

sounds like a very good idea. it would be great to do somehting like this.

[Shahumyan]

There is already an anti-corruption assosiation in Armenia, its HQ is near the Hraparak, ironically its probably corrupt

Who is going to fire who? those who needd to fire corrupt officials are corrupt themselves, the solution lies at the bottom, and only when there is deemocracy in Armenia will corruption end. Every official should be subjecct to immediate recall, this is only thing that will end corruption.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by Shahumyan There is already an anti-corruption assosiation in Armenia, its HQ is near the Hraparak, ironically its probably corrupt

Who is going to fire who? those who needd to fire corrupt officials are corrupt themselves, the solution lies at the bottom, and only when there is deemocracy in Armenia will corruption end. Every official should be subjecct to immediate recall, this is only thing that will end corruption.

Oh no, not the Marxist again...

Behold of his wisdom for he has the answers to everything. If Marx was the prophet, he's the follower.

Baron that seems like a very interesting idea, but I have my concerns nonetheless regarding corruption, since government leads to corruption no matter what.

Armenia's currency is paper currency, baseless fiat money. You can talk about all the problems you want to fix, but not know that the problem lies int he system itself. The whole world is slave to this system of fiat money, one of the plancks of communism.

[Shahumyan]

insteada of sloganeering, id rather u critisize my idea and put forward a better alternative, if your unable to do this, xxxx off

[TigranJamharian]

you mr shahumyan are just totally annoying with your communist crap, get over it Armenia is not going back to communism your xxxxing system doesnt work and we see what it did to Armenia for 70 years

now to you mr anonymouse shut the xxxx up about getting rid of the government already, you make no xxxxin sense and just copy and paste thousands of paragraphs of worthless xxxx off the internet, i try to read one but then woop dee do theres 20 more, i have better things to do than sit there and read that crap for hours on end. If you havent realized by now no matter how many of those things you post noone is being convinced and im sure if you were put into a practical situation you would finally realize that all your theories dont work for jack xxxx. and what the xxxx was that last sentence there?
Armenia's currency is paper currency, baseless fiat money. You can talk about all the problems you want to fix, but not know that the problem lies int he system itself. The whole world is slave to this system of fiat money, one of the plancks of communism.
and let me understand htis now, communism is a boardwalk and fiat money is a plank? ok so according to you we should all walk around with bags of pure gold coins?

[Shahumyan]

Originally posted by TigranJamharian
now to you mr anonymouse shut the xxxx up about getting rid of the government already, you make no xxxxin sense and just copy and paste thousands of paragraphs of worthless xxxx off the internet,

haha, getseh aper jaaaan

70 years was not communism, bout 5 years was, the rest was stalinism, enger from Sopranos. from now on, i gonna call u junior, were u a real fat xxxx when u were bsdig dgha? then wud be good to call u junior.

[TigranJamharian]

you know what shahumyan i have realized that personally your a pretty cool guy. but your neverending communist propoganda just really gets on my nerves

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by Shahumyan There is already an anti-corruption assosiation in Armenia, its HQ is near the Hraparak, ironically its probably corrupt

Who is going to fire who? those who needd to fire corrupt officials are corrupt themselves, the solution lies at the bottom, and only when there is deemocracy in Armenia will corruption end. Every official should be subjecct to immediate recall, this is only thing that will end corruption.

High ranked officials will fire lower ranked officials in order to prove that they are trying to fight corruption, so they can assure that the (potentially) HUGE diasporan investments will not be withdrawn. I'm not talking about sacking the minister of finance here. Baby steps...that might become big.

But besides that....I would also agree to tell you to GIVE COMMUNISM UP. Yeghav verchatsav...it's illogical to even think about going back.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by Anonymouse
Armenia's currency is paper currency, baseless fiat money. You can talk about all the problems you want to fix, but not know that the problem lies int he system itself. The whole world is slave to this system of fiat money, one of the plancks of communism.

You know, not to sound rude or anything, but I don't care. I mean we can argue time and time again if the whole international market must be brought down along with every government, but I enjoy talking about concrete steps. Fiat money, or monopoly money, I don't care...as long as I know that the money will allow every armenian to put bread on his table. Forget bread, I want them to get the khorovats. :D

[Shahumyan]

Enger danzig, your presuming the high ranking officials give a xxxx.

In any case, surely the problem is that the officials are getting xxxx pay? Wouldnt it be easier to increase wage of the officials so they dont have to "top it up" with kashargner?

I believe its the conditions which create corruption, not the work of single individuals. If you fire on set of people, a whole new batch will become equally corrupt as the get into the same condintions of kakod pay.

As for my beliefs, i think they are progressive, in any case i wouldnt wanna go back to the corrupt xxxx. You say "going back" but didnt Armenia "go back" to its form in 1918! At least if i went back id only be going back 12 years, not 70! :D

[xBaron Dants]

Actually, I was going to post part 2 of my anti-corruption plan soon, which would be what I would do when I am elected into office. :D

Raising the wages of tax collectors, police officers, etc. was part of it.

And yes, the high-ranking corrupt officials would care about the investment, even if it is only to make them look better.

[dstyle]

There will always be corruption, the only thing you can do is lessen it.

[Shahumyan]

u wanna explain why there will always be corruption, or just gonna keep that nice little statement?

[dstyle]

Even in the most ideal of governmental situations there has been corruption, thats all.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by Shahumyan u wanna explain why there will always be corruption, or just gonna keep that nice little statement?

Politics equals corruption numbnuts. You cannot have politics without corruption, it simply goes hand in hand.

[Shahumyan]

Originally posted by dstyle Even in the most ideal of governmental situations there has been corruption, thats all.

again, no explaination, how is anyone supposed to take ur view seriously when ur incapable of simple explaination. what good is a slogan without explaination?

now go back and ask uncle dashnag gov ander to tell u more....thats after he takes u to camp and xxxxs u up the ass.

Anon, again no explaination.....im dissapointed

[Arvestaked]

Originally posted by Shahumyan again, no explaination, how is anyone supposed to take ur view seriously when ur incapable of simple explaination. what good is a slogan without explaination?

now go back and ask uncle dashnag gov ander to tell u more....thats after he takes u to camp and xxxxs u up the ass.

Anon, again no explaination.....im dissapointed

It is based on human nature. It is human nature to strive for more than you have. Someone will always want more power. That is just how it is.

[Shahumyan]

Originally posted by Arvestaked That is just how it is.

genius...

[patlajan]

Originally posted by Anonymouse Politics equals corruption numbnuts. You cannot have politics without corruption, it simply goes hand in hand.

Your blanket statement ignores that corruption is relative.

[Arvestaked]

Originally posted by Shahumyan genius...

That is one of those meaningful arguments you are always asking for right? I understand now. Single words with no explanatory weight at all.

[Shahumyan]

no, i was taking the piss out of how poor your "argument" is. Its called sarcasm.

[Arvestaked]

Originally posted by Shahumyan no, i was taking the piss out of how poor your "argument" is. Its called sarcasm.

Actually you evaded my arguement entirely and instead are blaming me for not seeing any sense in writing a dissertation on the human psyche. Stop being such a pubic hair.

[Shahumyan]

this goes back to "It is based on human nature. It is human nature to strive for more than you have. Someone will always want more power. That is just how it is."

i was saying how u made a bullxxxx statement, with no explaination, how can one expect to get a reply from something which has no explaination?

[Arvestaked]

Originally posted by Shahumyan this goes back to "It is based on human nature. It is human nature to strive for more than you have. Someone will always want more power. That is just how it is."

i was saying how u made a bullxxxx statement, with no explaination, how can one expect to get a reply from something which has no explaination?


That is an explanation, you dense xxxx. It is not bullxxxx. You can respond to whether or not you agree that inevitable corruption is a matter of human nature. As I said, any further explanation would have been a dissertation on the human psyche. You are trying to justify being an arrogant, hypocritical moron.

[Shahumyan]

getseh erekha jan. If your explaination is "That is just how it is" then ok, i leave you to it mate, im not gonna bother.

[Arvestaked]

G neres, pays toon eendzee yerekha mi gancher. Toon yerekhayi bes g mudazdes, eshoo gdor.

You are completely ignoring what I am telling you and are making the same arguement over and over again after I have addressed it.

[SexyAries]

Great idea! But do you think that the Armenian governemnt will acutally go for it, and even if they go for it you think they will follow up and actually go about the process????

[TruthSeeker]

Baron, the idea you present is utopian, as stated. It assumes that your organization's own employees will act good for the sake of acting good. But that is not how human beings do things. There needs to be a balance of positive and negative reinforcement in order to control (as much as possible) man's natural will to power (among other things). Let me elaborate.

Let's for a moment assume you have reached the point where your organization has a determining say on the Armenian govt. Tell me, what would prevent your organization from abusing this saying power? It would very much resemble how campaign contributions by big corporations in the US lead to corruption. But in Armenia it would be worse, since the interest-parties are so concentrated (that is, there is a lack of separation of power). At least in the US, if a corruption case gets revealed, you can be sure that (at least some) justice, according to the law, will be served. Thus, negative reinforcement.

Let's face it, the United States has invented the best governing structure. Absolutely the best. The number one reason why the US is the superpower it is today is its ingenious govt. It is strange how ignorant many ex-socialist/communist countries are, and haven't realized this fact. Have Armenia adopt a US-like gotv. system, release all govt. control over mass media, untie culture from govt. (starting with religion), and you will see the country prosper. Of course, power-hungry "activists" and "leaders" pretending to be interested in the country's good will avoid this model, as it wouldn't afford them as much power to achieve their own private goals.

On the other hand, it would rock to lead and own such an organization. The power it would have can be even greater than that of any govt. official.

Ok, that's it for my first post on these forums...

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker Baron, the idea you present is utopian, as stated. It assumes that your organization's own employees will act good for the sake of acting good. But that is not how human beings do things. There needs to be a balance of positive and negative reinforcement in order to control (as much as possible) man's natural will to power (among other things). Let me elaborate.

Let's for a moment assume you have reached the point where your organization has a determining say on the Armenian govt. Tell me, what would prevent your organization from abusing this saying power? It would very much resemble how campaign contributions by big corporations in the US lead to corruption. But in Armenia it would be worse, since the interest-parties are so concentrated (that is, there is a lack of separation of power). At least in the US, if a corruption case gets revealed, you can be sure that (at least some) justice, according to the law, will be served. Thus, negative reinforcement.

Let's face it, the United States has invented the best governing structure. Absolutely the best. The number one reason why the US is the superpower it is today is its ingenious govt. It is strange how ignorant many ex-socialist/communist countries are, and haven't realized this fact. Have Armenia adopt a US-like gotv. system, release all govt. control over mass media, untie culture from govt. (starting with religion), and you will see the country prosper. Of course, power-hungry "activists" and "leaders" pretending to be interested in the country's good will avoid this model, as it wouldn't afford them as much power to achieve their own private goals.

On the other hand, it would rock to lead and own such an organization. The power it would have can be even greater than that of any govt. official.

Ok, that's it for my first post on these forums...

Well, quite a way to start your stay here. Welcome to the board!

I'm not convinced that the US system would work in Armenia as most of the time would be spent in gridlocks and endless filibustering. Armenia is not a case where two branches of the same party propose laws that the other one would probably pass anyways.

This organization wouldn't be there to get a hold on power. It would simply be a way to keep the government in check.

And it won't be corrupt simply because we will have the right people in charge. Yes, that would be me. :)

[jahannam]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker

Let's face it, the United States has invented the best governing structure. Absolutely the best. The number one reason why the US is the superpower it is today is its ingenious govt. It is strange how ignorant many ex-socialist/communist countries are, and haven't realized this fact. Have Armenia adopt a US-like gotv. system, release all govt. control over mass media, untie culture from govt. (starting with religion), and you will see the country prosper. Of course, power-hungry "activists" and "leaders" pretending to be interested in the country's good will avoid this model, as it wouldn't afford them as much power to achieve their own private goals.


yeah, that way we'll have a higher devorce rate, our kids will start smoking pot at 10 and go shoot their classmates, and teenagers will buzz out babies every hour.
yeah the American System rules!!!!!!! yeah give me five!:rolleyes:

[Arvestaked]

When speaking about America as a political and economic entity, there are three things to keep in mind: it is the wealthiest, it is the strongest, and it has contributed the most technological advancements. America has the strongest, most advanced army with the most nuclear weapons. The amount of money that America has and churns out is insane. And so many technological advancements have been given to the rest of the world, by America: the airplane, the mass produced car, the telephone, the computer, the internet, the music systems that you use, the television, etc...almost all of the technology, including military technology, that every other country takes for granted was contributed to the world by America. Arguing that it is unsuccessful as a government is foolish. If you want to argue about governments that could be better that have not existed yet, that is fine. If you you want to argue all sorts of minute statistics to compare all the miniscule aspects of different governments, no doubt you will find better aspects in other places. But what I said is irrefutable and shows a successful government, relative to what is currently in existence.

[Shahumyan]

so you wish to rate a country just by the select statistics u choose? Where is qualioty of life down as in America? maybe on a par to nigeria

[Arvestaked]

Originally posted by Shahumyan so you wish to rate a country just by the select statistics u choose? Where is qualioty of life down as in America? maybe on a par to nigeria

I am not rating anything. I am merely saying that, based on what I said, you cannot claim that America is not successful as a government and an economy. It is the attitude of it being such a terrible place that I am responding to. As a matter of fact, one of the biggest contributors to any quality-of-life issues that one would debate is the excessive immigration, and that is fueled by the success of the United States as a government and an economy. For someone who does not live in the United States and has never been in the work force here, you are being very presumptuous.

[Shahumyan]

Arves,
have you ever been outside the US?
Ive been to the US, and see how people have to work like dogs just to make ends meet, its bullxxxx.

As for the government, i dont see how thats successful, the indicators u presented b4 could be used for the Romans, the Greeks, the Persians and so on. Just because your around now doesnt make you successful

[Arvestaked]

Originally posted by Shahumyan Arves,
have you ever been outside the US?
Ive been to the US, and see how people have to work like dogs just to make ends meet, its bullxxxx.

As for the government, i dont see how thats successful, the indicators u presented b4 could be used for the Romans, the Greeks, the Persians and so on. Just because your around now doesnt make you successful

Yes I have been outside of the US many times, cumstain. People work like xxxxs to get by in Socialistic governments as well. The thing is that any characteristic any population can be represented by a bell curve. If you suggest a system that cannot, then it is not possible. It is that xxxxing simple really.

And, I did not say that a government just has to exist to be successful. Apparently you like ignoring other people's words. I mentioned specific characteristics that put it on a pedestal above many others. Even if they could be applied to those old empires, which is another discussion, it is all relative. For their time they were. History is trial and error.

So far you have succeeded in being stupid. Please come back and play again.

[Shahumyan]

thank you for calling me a cumstain, this truly shoes inchkan medz ooghegh unes.

"People work like xxxxs to get by in Socialistic governments as well"
-yes, apart from these not being socialist and infact deformed workers states, these workers had job secutiry to the max whereas in America people fear taking holidays in case they get sacked, they had best health which most in America cant afford and education where even in cuba, literacy rate is 99% and its 96% in USA i believe, if not less

"History is trial and error"
-thats absurd, in fact, that doesnt even make any sense. explain.

[Arvestaked]

Originally posted by Shahumyan thank you for calling me a cumstain, this truly shoes inchkan medz ooghegh unes.

That is not an attempt at flexing my brain. Congratulations on one of the most common responses to any insult.

"People work like xxxxs to get by in Socialistic governments as well"
-yes, apart from these not being socialist and infact deformed workers states, these workers had job secutiry to the max whereas in America people fear taking holidays in case they get sacked, they had best health which most in America cant afford and education where even in cuba, literacy rate is 99% and its 96% in USA i believe, if not less

I have never met anybody who fears taking a holiday that was not agreed to in an employment contract. And they pay for that health care; the taxes are higher. And it is much more difficult to start your own business.

"History is trial and error"
-thats absurd, in fact, that doesnt even make any sense. explain.

There is nothing absurd about it and it makes complete sense. I was expecting you to make a connection that you do not have the mental capability to make. You were implying that, relative to current political experience, those previous empires could be considered inferior. That was your tone. But the success is relative to its time and you cannot consider your views to be superior. If the characteristics I gave could in fact be applied to those previous governments, then, yes, they were relatively successful and again the U.S. remains so. That is what I was saying. But you are also picking apart a comment that was to be taken in passing.

[Shahumyan]

instead of playing adverserial politics, try engaging in explaining your stance, its not a game, theres nothing to win by using your extra-ordinary wit. Its boring

As for your knowledge of a neighbour country Cuba, you have none. Education and health are free, and as for being a capitalist trying to start up your own business there, well as its supposed to be a socialist country, no xxxx sherlock, that its hard to start a business, and rightfully so, in fact it should be banned to start private enterprise fullstop.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by Shahumyan in fact it should be banned to start private enterprise fullstop.






HAHAHA!

[Shahumyan]

wtf is this arse bandit laughing at? instead of laughing, put forward your alternative and discuss like an adult.

[Red Brigade]

Plan against corruption without guns?It will never work another way in a country like Armenia.