Selflessness...

[Arvestaked]

Does altruism really exist on its own or is it a form of selfishness?

All decisions are based on something selfish, whether it is to alleviate guilt or make yourself feel good for making another feel better or for doing something to open another door for yourself or just to acquire an obvious gain. Sexuality is 100% selfish. Charity is a 100% selfish. Loaning your friend money even though you would prefer to keep it is 100% selfish.

Or is it?

Is it logical to have opposites be the same thing? If opposites can be referred to the same way, does that cancel out the higher classification? By that I mean: if 'selfishness1' and 'altruism' are opposites but can be classified as 'selfishness2', does that automatically negate 'selfishness2'? Or does it negate altruism as I suggested before? If 'selfishness2' is negated and selfishness and altruism exist separately, do we have to ignore the fact that acts of altruism cause benefit to the actor at a conscious level?

[Anonymouse]

You can argue this ten thousand ways. Some will agree some will not, and everyone will have miles of opinion and "experience" to prove themselves.

[loseyourname]

I'm not all concerned with motivation, to be perfectly honest. Whether or not I am being selfish, if a seemingly selfless act gets the job done, so be it. For that reason, I am very openly selfish, but still manage to perform acts that are beneficial to the ones I care about.

[Aphrodit3]

Not everything is a selfish act.
My uncle took a bullet that was meant for his best friend. He jumped in front of the guy, got a bullet in the head and of course, died. Can you tell me that's a selfish act? Does my uncle feel good or less guilty now that he's dead?
I don't like being reduced to an animal motivated by self-interest and lacking in will power, reason or judgement.

[Arvestaked]

Originally posted by Aphrodit3 Not everything is a selfish act.
My uncle took a bullet that was meant for his best friend. He jumped in front of the guy, got a bullet in the head and of course, died. Can you tell me that's a selfish act? Does my uncle feel good or less guilty now that he's dead?

Yes it is. It made him feel better at that moment to make that decision.

I don't like being reduced to an animal motivated by self-interest and lacking in will power, reason or judgement.

I know you do not. That is why I started this thread.

[Aphrodit3]

I don't think the thought of dying made him feel better. It was an impulsive decision. I doubt this was his desired outcome, why would he be motivated by death?

[loseyourname]

He most likely was acting entirely on impulse. It was entirely reflexive, motivated by neither self-interest nor altruism. It proves no one's point and is a null example.

[Aphrodit3]

Originally posted by Arvestaked I know you do not. That is why I started this thread.


And it's a great thread, kudos to you!

[Arvestaked]

Originally posted by Aphrodit3 And it's a great thread, kudos to you!

I appologize for trying to incite discussion. Go read sex threads.

[sSsflamesSs]

Originally posted by Aphrodit3 I don't think the thought of dying made him feel better. It was an impulsive decision. I doubt this was his desired outcome, why would he be motivated by death?

It was either a purely impulsive action

or

his love for his friend outweighed his fear/dislike of death, which still makes the action, whether you like it or not, selfish, since it was self-centered, however brave.

[Aphrodit3]

Originally posted by Arvestaked I appologize for trying to incite discussion. Go read sex threads.

I wasn't being sarcastic. I honestly did think it was a good thread. I'm sorry for ever complimenting you...it won't happen again.

[loseyourname]

Arvy, are you really so insecure that you can't believe someone would actually say and mean a good word about you?

[felizitation]

Originally posted by Anonymouse You can argue this ten thousand ways. Some will agree some will not, and everyone will have miles of opinion and "experience" to prove themselves.

Hope it won't put the shame on you Anon, but I think exactly the same.
You always may explain any action from a selfish or altruist point of view, and it is pretty much the same for the feelings, thoughts, ...

[jahannam]

Originally posted by sSsflamesSs It was either a purely impulsive action

or

his love for his friend outweighed his fear/dislike of death, which still makes the action, whether you like it or not, selfish, since it was self-centered, however brave.

hey , if you run for president of Armenia, along with Baron and Tigs in the year 2023 (was it?), You'll have my vote!
:D

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by felizitation Hope it won't put the shame on you Anon, but I think exactly the same.
You always may explain any action from a selfish or altruist point of view, and it is pretty much the same for the feelings, thoughts, ...

Yep, pretty much. Everyone has the answers to everything. Why bother asking questions, eh?

[felizitation]

Originally posted by Anonymouse Yep, pretty much. Everyone has the answers to everything. Why bother asking questions, eh?

I meant concerning selflessness...

[sSsflamesSs]

Originally posted by jahannam hey , if you run for president of Armenia, along with Baron and Tigs in the year 2023 (was it?), You'll have my vote!
:D

Haha, thanks, but I hate politics. I'll let you know if I change my mind. ;)

...Unless of course you were kidding about the whole ordeal, haha.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by sSsflamesSs Haha, thanks, but I hate politics. I'll let you know if I change my mind. ;)

...Unless of course you were kidding about the whole ordeal, haha.

Waaaaaaaaaait, I hadn't seen jahannam's message. Jahannam jan, did you mean that you would vote for her INSTEAD of us, or that we would all run together? :confused: :D

[Arvestaked]

Originally posted by loseyourname Arvy, are you really so insecure that you can't believe someone would actually say and mean a good word about you?

This is a stupid question resulting from the social conditioning that gives selfishness a negative connotation. People assume selfishness is bad. Stop doing that. This is not a matter of good and bad; it is a matter of the drive to act. It has nothing to do with insecurities. People need to stop attributing posts to insecurities; these are tired presumptions and mean nothing.

[loseyourname]

Originally posted by Arvestaked This is a stupid question resulting from the social conditioning that gives selfishness a negative connotation. People assume selfishness is bad. Stop doing that. This is not a matter of good and bad; it is a matter of the drive to act. It has nothing to do with insecurities. People need to stop attributing posts to insecurities; these are tired presumptions and mean nothing.

Arvy, you're ranting again; betraying your insecurity.

[Arvestaked]

Originally posted by loseyourname Arvy, you're ranting again; betraying your insecurity.

And I know you are doing that "I need to have the last word" thing again because what you posted means nothing.

[loseyourname]

It means I find your insecurity rather cute when it isn't pissing off my friends. Read a little closer, then go take a cold shower, maybe some valium.

[Arvestaked]

Originally posted by loseyourname It means I find your insecurity rather cute when it isn't pissing off my friends. Read a little closer, then go take a cold shower, maybe some valium.

No. How about you go back and read what led to this nonsense and realize that it has nothing to do with insecurity. I started the thread to incite discussion and I stated two opposing points of view. I have taken upon the resposibility to argue one of the points. I may be playing Devil's advocate; you do not know. You are being ridiculous and presumptuous. And you are misunderstanding what I am posting if you feel my arguement about selfishness is based in insecurity. I suggest you take a boiling bath after consuming large quantities of arsenic.

[loseyourname]

Originally posted by Arvestaked I appologize for trying to incite discussion. Go read sex threads.

She complimented you on starting what she felt was a great thread, and this was your response. That doesn't strike you as insecure?

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by loseyourname She complimented you on starting what she felt was a great thread, and this was your response. That doesn't strike you as insecure?

Well, apparently when you make so many sex threads people don't begin to take you seriously after a while.

I hope a tornado demolishes your house.

[loseyourname]

Originally posted by Anonymouse Well, apparently when you make so many sex threads people don't begin to take you seriously after a while.

I hope a tornado demolishes your house.

Why are you insulting Aphrodit3? What did she do to you? And who the xxxx asked you to interject into every single back and forth between all members of the forum?

I have posted over forty threads. Two have been about sex.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by loseyourname Why are you insulting Aphrodit3? What did she do to you? And who the xxxx asked you to interject into every single back and forth between all members of the forum?

I have posted over forty threads. Two have been about sex.

I wasn't responding to Aphrodit3, I was responding to you. And I gave myself the right to interject.

[spiral]

Does altruism really exist on its own or is it a form of selfishness?

All decisions are based on something selfish, whether it is to alleviate guilt or make yourself feel good for making another feel better or for doing something to open another door for yourself or just to acquire an obvious gain. Sexuality is 100% selfish. Charity is a 100% selfish. Loaning your friend money even though you would prefer to keep it is 100% selfish.

Or is it?

Is it logical to have opposites be the same thing? If opposites can be referred to the same way, does that cancel out the higher classification? By that I mean: if 'selfishness1' and 'altruism' are opposites but can be classified as 'selfishness2', does that automatically negate 'selfishness2'? Or does it negate altruism as I suggested before? If 'selfishness2' is negated and selfishness and altruism exist separately, do we have to ignore the fact that acts of altruism cause benefit to the actor at a conscious level?




I believe that there is no altruistic act.

Anything and everything we do is triggered by a slefish reason/need.

I guess altruism is referred to those acts that are ultimately done for selfish reason's, but unconsciously. The person does not consciously decide to act out for selfish reasons. still, it's done for selfsih reasons. (kachal hasan, te hasan kachal)<--armenian saying.

For everyone, no one is more valuable then themselves. It's innate to love yourself, and support yourselves. Those who don't, are insecure, and find another means of reassuring their security- being "unselfish".

[loseyourname]

As I said before, there is no rational basis for coming to that conclusion, or any conclusion whatsoever. Centuries of psychology and biology have only taught us how poorly we really understand human motivation. To refute altruism is to refute free will, as you are saying that all of our actions are determined, not through a conscious act of will untraceable to any biological beginning outside of our conscious control, but by an evolutionary impulse, our selfish genes acting in their own best interest. This is a little too simple; I suspect that human consciousness is a little more complex and nuanced than this. That is why I didn't come to any conclusion, and only used the words "most likely" when discussing the case of Afro's uncle.

[spiral]

As I said before, there is no rational basis for coming to that conclusion, or any conclusion whatsoever. Centuries of psychology and biology have only taught us how poorly we really understand human motivation. To refute altruism is to refute free will, as you are saying that all of our actions are determined, not through a conscious act of will untraceable to any biological beginning outside of our conscious control, but by an evolutionary impulse, our selfish genes acting in their own best interest. This is a little too simple; I suspect that human consciousness is a little more complex and nuanced than this. That is why I didn't come to any conclusion, and only used the words "most likely" when discussing the case of Afro's uncle.


Refuting altruism has nothing to do with refuting free will.

Altruism is inner, extending out. Free will is outer, extending inn.
(from and to the individual)

[Anonymouse]

To state that all we do is out of "selfishness" is unfounded for one can also make an argument stating that all we do is for the good of others. I can cite personal examples in my life of people in my life that not all our actions are selfish, i.e. beneficial to us in some ways.

[sSsflamesSs]

Originally posted by Anonymouse To state that all we do is out of "selfishness" is unfounded for one can also make an argument stating that all we do is for the good of others. I can cite personal examples in my life of people in my life that not all our actions are selfish, i.e. beneficial to us in some ways.

Please cite those examples, so that I can explain to you that there is no altruistic behavior.

[PASAMONSTER]

How about believing in God and Living the path of the Lord.
would this be a selfish act?

I say yes because people do this to secure a place in heaven.

so they believe because they want a better place for themselves.

[loseyourname]

Originally posted by sSsflamesSs Please cite those examples, so that I can explain to you that there is no altruistic behavior.

All you be able to do is to explain how, if the motivation behind them is as you say it is, these acts are not altruistic. Neither you nor he fully understand the basis of his decision-making process, and neither you nor he truly knows whether or not these acts are altruistic or done in his own best interest. To say that you know is tantamount to sophistry. I never though I'd say this, but everyone here but the Mouse is being very narrow-minded about this.