Abortion

[SagGal]

Abortion ~

I don't know if this topic has been discussed here but I sure haven't seen it, which surprises me because we've mentioned a lot of serious topics.

what do you all think about it? Is it a woman's right to choose or is it just plain murder, or what? I'm against it, but I wanna know what you all think.

:)

[xBaron Dants]

Yes, we've had the topic before. I hate this topic. People start out on one side, and 10 pages later, are still on the same side.

Trying to convince someone to change their views on this is like trying to convince surfer that Bush isn't a holy man :D (heh, I miiiiiiiissed you surfer)

It is a controversial topic for some reason, but it bores me.

Way to boost you thread, eh SagGal? :D sorry..

[SagGal]

no sorries, its just that this topic was raised in class today and everyone got so into it. Besides, that's pretty much the point here, arguing different opinions.

[PASAMONSTER]

I'm against abortion if it is not to my cause, I'm for it if its beneficial to me LOL

[ckBejug]

Originally posted by Baron Dants Yes, we've had the topic before. I hate this topic. People start out on one side, and 10 pages later, are still on the same side.

Trying to convince someone to change their views on this is like trying to convince surfer that Bush isn't a holy man :D (heh, I miiiiiiiissed you surfer)

It is a controversial topic for some reason, but it bores me.

Way to boost you thread, eh SagGal? :D sorry..


Baron, I think the problem is in trying to 'convince someone to change their views'. Seems like if their views were so easy to change they wouldn't be very stong and argue-worthy in the first place. When we try to have serious topic arguments around here most of the time it seems what we're doing is: try to change what others think if they disagree with you and get them to adopt your personal convictions as the 'right' way to go. As you can see, that never happens, here or anywhere. We're all too bull-headed and stubborn to give in so easily. The way to get someone to see things your way is not to say what you think and immediately get them to see it your way, that's not going to happen. You have to make someone understand your point of view and let them come to a decision themselves if that's the way to go or if they're going to stick to their guns and think they're right, even if they're not. Anyway things like abortion wouldn't be so controversial if there was a clear-cut 'right' or 'wrong'.

What do I think about abortion? I would personally NEVER have one. But, do I think it should be illegal? No. It should be a womans right to choose. Even though some women do abuse this right, it's still their choice. There are too many things that can happen that would have to be exceptions to a no abortion law, if ever one existed. Like what if a woman was raped? What if you know FOR SURE through scientific testing that your child would be born with a debilitating disease that would make him/her sick from the minute he/she was born? there are too many what-ifs and I don't think it should be up to some committee to decide when it's ok to have an abortion. That should be between a woman, herself, and the man in her life if he chooses to be in on it. I can say that except in cases like rape and disease, I am against the idea of abortion but that would be hypocritical of me because I do stem cell research at work and sme people out there think that's pretty much the same thing as abortion. So, I just say let the choice be available, no laws against it, because desperate women find ways to get it done with or without help and without help they end up hurting themselves terribly and there doesn't need to be any more suffering out there....

[violette829]

Perfect..that's exactly what I would say!

[surferarmo]

CKbejug, you put it perfectly. Our leftist oops...I mean...uh...Canadian friend believes that everyone must be indoctrinated with the beliefs that he has subscribed himself or herself (you never know, its Canada) to. (Baron, I am not trying to say that Bush is the BEST IN THE WORLD or anything like that, just that he can get the job done and should BE RE-ELECTED).

Arguing is not about convincing, its about presenation.

Anyway, this is a serious topic for me, and you all better believe I will get into this later on tonight. There are so many manipulations of language in this arguement and so many euphimisms at play. In fact, most people argue for or against the use of abortion in fallacious terms; they often use the same word with different meanings throughout the arguement. I cant wait to get into this. Ready yourselves.

Before I get on this later tonight, you should try to define a person biologically, and then you should define a person politically (based on the country in which you reside).

I love you Baron. (Why did I say that?) (And why I am using so many parenthesis)

[loseyourname]

I oppose abortion simply because no accepted definition of person exists, political or otherwise. If it is not known when personhood is acquired, then it is not known at what point the annihilation of an embryo becomes legally defined as murder. Completely avoiding the morality of the issue, because it is impossibly vague, the simple fact that the act may or may not be murder on a purely legal basis should be enough to outlaw it. Given that lawmakers and judges seem to have completely ignored this tells me that issue has become almost entirely political to those who have made it a legally protected act, and that they are not taking it as seriously as they should be doing.

[whitelotus]

i personally think that some politician in a suit sitting in his office in some capital shouldnt make the decision for millions of men and woman alone. A man and woman have the right to choose what they wish to do.

for example:
if a woman was raped and is pregnant from that rape. Why should the government force her to keep the child? All she is going to do is raise that child with absolute hate. That child will suffer in the world, because of something that wasnt there fault. Why should we raise children and born them, when they are borned from hate, violence and rape. The child doesnt deserve it.

If you are pregnant, and you go to the hospital, The doctor tells you , your child will have serious complications, deformations, diseases. Will you want to born them, so they can have a painful life being mocked, being in pain, not being able to enjoy the simple things in life, just because its illegal to have an abortion ? I personally wouldnt want my child to suffer everyday. Its being selfish. If i was poor, if i was a bad mother. I would never want to born a child, they will suffer all there lives from these complications that i borned them into.

people should have the right to choose , not some chum in an office.

[loseyourname]

Chums in office have been given the right to outlaw murder and I don't hear anyone complaining. So until you can show or even attempt to argue conclusively that abortion is not murder do you even begin to have a case. This isn't about politics. This is about one person's rights infringing on what may be the rights of another person, in fact, completely taking away all of them. That is unacceptable.

[whitelotus]

is it murder when the baby hasnt even started developing (embrio), much less has been born ? lol
This has been argued over and over the past i dunno years. People have differences in opinion, There is no fact.

is it murder when a child hasnt even been born, is it murder when its only a embrio.? some think it is, some dont.

its very much like the arguement of making abortion legal or illegal, it will never be solved.

[loseyourname]

You just restated my reason for outlawing it. If it can't be shown that it isn't murder, then it should be outlawed. We have laws protecting braindead but functioning bodies; why not embryos? This is an appaling legal inconsistency and it exists purely for political reasons, without any regard given to legality or morality. Again, the issue is not being taken seriously. You admit yourself that it may be murder, but you don't seem to have a problem with that. Why not?

[whitelotus]

in my opinion its not murder, because it hasnt been brought into the world, i said others might think it is. So there is never going to be one opinion nor fact.

i never said its okay to murder. My opinion of preventing a embryo of entering the world isnt murder.

[loseyourname]

So an embryo is not at any point a person while still in the womb? You define personhood as existence outside of the uterus? That is unsatisfactory given that the only difference between a child immediately before and after birth is that one breathes air, the other does not.

[Anonymouse]

Abortion is indeed a hot topic, but you can bet that it is just another tool, and the only benificiary of it is the State, once more.

During election time, the Republican candidates and their bombast like to assure the Christian and conservative voters about their policy of "partial birth abortion" not totally rejecting it, yet at the same time, somehow pretending to be opponents against it ( while most of the Right doesn't realize the present Republican Neo cons made government bigger than any other administration since Roosevelt ). The Democrat bunch also lards their speech with saintly oils of how they are for "individual sovereignty" for this instance, when usually they don't care for the individual, rather the collective. It should be clear to any critical thinking individual that abortion is a tool for the State.

The argument for "individual sovereignty" at least for me, doesn't hold. I am for the individual, and the rights of the individual. However the concept of individual sovereignty as a means for evaluating abortion rights falls short. To cede to a woman the power of life and death over the life inside her body because it is inside her body is just is stretching it thin.

If we take the logic of "since it's the womans body she has a right to do what she wants with the life inside her" can be applied to other places. If we make an argument for government and borders, and for landowners and plantations, then this logic seems to suggest that the government is right in whatever it does within its borders, and the landowner can own a slave on his plantation. Of course the argument can be raised that "but the fetus is not a life". I mean come on. Call it a fetus, call it a person, nonetheless it is a life. In the age of genome mapping there is no denying that when the sperm and the egg join, the DNA is set.

To say that because all thistakes place insde the mothers body and she has sovereignty over this new life means that having the power of life and death gives us the right to exercise that power. At its root this is saying no more than that might makes right. Eventually what makes anyone sovereign at any point in life over themselves they must be recognized as sovereign. That means no less than defending life when it canot defend itself, in the beginning and at the end, whether against the State and its armies, or the mother and the abortionists.

In so far as people continue to throw themselves on the Left or Right of the political spectrum solely on this issue, just like gun control, so long will the State wield masses to its advantage. Eventually, the questions and morality raised by the abortion issue is something that cannot be answered by the State.

[SagGal]

It is still a living thing and its a fact that when the abortion process happens, the baby feel pain also. It is definitely murder, in my opinion.
Some believe that it is a woman's right and that it's OK because it is not born yet. If this is true, then why is it illegal for a mother to kill her baby when's its actually born? What's the difference? I mean, it is a living thing when it's inside of the woman. I say "baby" because it will develop into a baby. It's just the first living step of becoming a human being.
If Abortion becomes a common thing, a lot of teenage girls will feel more comfotable about having sex because right now the main things that keeps them from having sex is the idea of getting pregnant. If they do not worry about this because they will feel that they can always get an abortion, diseases such as Aids and STD's will enter the picture.

I should have added a poll to this thread, but oh well.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by surferarmo CKbejug, you put it perfectly. Our leftist oops...I mean...uh...Canadian friend believes that everyone must be indoctrinated with the beliefs that he has subscribed himself or herself (you never know, its Canada) to. (Baron, I am not trying to say that Bush is the BEST IN THE WORLD or anything like that, just that he can get the job done and should BE RE-ELECTED).

Arguing is not about convincing, its about presenation.

Anyway, this is a serious topic for me, and you all better believe I will get into this later on tonight. There are so many manipulations of language in this arguement and so many euphimisms at play. In fact, most people argue for or against the use of abortion in fallacious terms; they often use the same word with different meanings throughout the arguement. I cant wait to get into this. Ready yourselves.

Before I get on this later tonight, you should try to define a person biologically, and then you should define a person politically (based on the country in which you reside).

I love you Baron. (Why did I say that?) (And why I am using so many parenthesis)

Alright, let me rephrase, so that our fellow american readers can understand. My initial point was that the subject of abortion is not one that can be based on UNDENIABLE proof, and is only based on personal values. That is why, most people cannot back themselves up with anything more than their own beliefs. Which eventually leads to redundancy.

Once again, I don't understand what surfer is saying when he speaks of being indoctrinated with the same ideas as I am, as I personally have not yet formed an opinion on abortion, mostly because there is no proof to sway me on one side or another. I would have a hard time justifying why a 14 year old or a rape victim must keep her baby though...

[SagGal]

Originally posted by Baron Dants ...I would have a hard time justifying why a 14 year old or a rape victim must keep her baby though... there is adoption.

[jahannam]

oh God.
here we go again
the 111th "abortion" thread or something.
anyway
I'll say this again...
no matter how many times you say "abortion is murder", it's a solution to a lot of problems, and it's gonna go on.
make it legal.
make it illegal.
neither doctors nor expecting women care.
if they're gonna do it, they're gonna do it.
you can't stop science.
you can't slow down technology.

[SexyAries]

A person should have the right to make their own choices. Personally i don't like the idea of killing a baby even if it hasn't fully developed. Although, and it is very selfish, if i was to ever get pregnant from the ages of 16 to before I'm married I would most likely get an abortion, if i have no means to support myself and the child, if i do then an abortion will never be an option, if i had to i would just leave, go far far away.

[Anonymouse]

First of all just how serious is the "rape victim" statistics? I mean come on. I explained clearly that abortion and the State do not mix. Democracies cannot and should not solve this question. "They are not fully human". Such elastic definitions are only paramount to how we can play in moral relativism. When the egg and sperm meet, DNA is set, so the elasticity argument is really swimming in shallow waters.

The ethics behind abortion are nothing in the realm of politics, having to do with what constitutes membership in the human race and with what rights accompany that status in our society. The "democratic process" only confuses the issue further and divides people into armed camps. Both sides concede to the State and to the mass of voters the authority to determine who’s human and who isn’t. xxxx that. Not only can one very easily imagine the State and the masses making objectively wrong decisions, but also given the fickle and arbitrary nature of bureaucrats, the masses, and the Supreme Court tyrants, a decision that’s "right" today can be "wrong" tomorrow.

A person has the right to make whatever choices they want. The State should never have interfered or gotten itself involved in anything relating to abortion. But like everything else, it must involve itself. Putting forth these kinds of fundamental questions to the democratic process amounts to denying the existence of truth itself, or at least subordinating truth to power. This happens to be the inverse of what the liberal state was originally supposed to do, to uphold certain pre existing conventional and metaphysical rights. You're basically allowing "Democracy" to do your thinking for you on what is human and what isn't.

[spiral]

Not all people know the difference, or are capable of distinguishing between what is human and what is not.

[jahannam]

ouh ouh so lets give that responsibility/job to the Bush Administration.:rolleyes:

[Nimrod]

A survey showed some very important evidence. Some of this evidence might relate with you but here is what was found during the conducted study. Study findings should alert parents that there is a “small window of opportunity” to influence teens as they move into a romantic relationship.

White and black teens are more apt to use contraception consistently (66% each) than Hispanic teens (54%). That finding concerns Tamara Kreinin of the Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States. “This tells us we have to focus extra effort on the Latino population, on both young men and women.”

She says the report is important because “it tells us much more about teen sexual behavior.” The study, called “Patterns of Contraceptive Use Within Teenagers' First Sexual Relationships,” is published in Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, a periodical from the Alan Guttmacher Institute.

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by spiral Not all people know the difference, or are capable of distinguishing between what is human and what is not.


Now that we are talking about the war and its catalysts behind it I suddenly came up with an idea here: I know this sounds a bit odd, but instead of putting Saddam on trial, how about we put him in charge of rebuilding Iraq?

[PASAMONSTER]

Just to make some things clear.

If someone murders intentionally or unintentionally a pregnant woman. Doesn't matter how many months pregnant, just as long as the coroner determines that she is pregnant. The murderer (defendant) will be facing 2 counts of premeditated murder or manslaughter.

In the case where they did't succeed they will be charged with 2 counts of attempted murder.

what ever the case it's 2 (two) counts, so you go figure if abortion is murder or not.

I don't really care, there are so many variants to this thats its not even funny. Rape, accident, too young for child, and so on and so on. Each of theese accounts can be looked at differently.

[loseyourname]

Originally posted by jahannam oh God.
here we go again
the 111th "abortion" thread or something.
anyway
I'll say this again...
no matter how many times you say "abortion is murder", it's a solution to a lot of problems, and it's gonna go on.
make it legal.
make it illegal.
neither doctors nor expecting women care.
if they're gonna do it, they're gonna do it.
you can't stop science.
you can't slow down technology.

The world is always going to have criminals. It doesn't prevent us from enacting laws.

[loseyourname]

Originally posted by PASAMONSTER If someone murders intentionally or unintentionally a pregnant woman. Doesn't matter how many months pregnant, just as long as the coroner determines that she is pregnant. The murderer (defendant) will be facing 2 counts of premeditated murder or manslaughter.

This is exactly my point about the law being jumbled and incoherent. The least we could ask for as informed, conscientious citizens is the law be applied consistently in all cases.

This goes for you too, Mousy. Whether or not you like, these laws have been here and always will be here. You have no choice but to compromise and play with your neighbors, or leave. As long as these laws are here, we may as well be aware of them and at least keep them in line to the best of our abilities.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by spiral Not all people know the difference, or are capable of distinguishing between what is human and what is not.

Really? Then those people are idiots and should be mutilated.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by loseyourname This is exactly my point about the law being jumbled and incoherent. The least we could ask for as informed, conscientious citizens is the law be applied consistently in all cases.

This goes for you too, Mousy. Whether or not you like, these laws have been here and always will be here. You have no choice but to compromise and play with your neighbors, or leave. As long as these laws are here, we may as well be aware of them and at least keep them in line to the best of our abilities.

I don't see what this has anything to do with my position on abortion.

[surferarmo]

I believe that politicians SHOULD be making these decisions. Who else is going to implement policy? Only 11% of the population pursues a higher education. Most politicians are educated, and I do not want the other 89% making my decisions for me. It is their job, hence the name politician, they deal primarily with the creation of policy. Who else should we leave it up to...you?

You guys have allowed politicians to define your arguement. You call the right to have an abortion choice. That is a euphimistic device. Notice how I do not use the terms, "pro-life" or "pro-choice." Each term connotes an opposite; for instance, if one is pro-life, I find it hard to believe that someone else is pro-death. Some of you call the right to have an abortion choice, while I call it "lack of personal accountablity"

Some might argue that we should leave it up to women to decide. IF it was that way, then abortion would be illegal. In fact, 58-63% of women are anti-abortion.

The fact is that when someone committs abortion, one is giving up on something. To abort is to give up, or retreat. One only takes such measures in times of desperation, or fear because they had made a devastating mistake, or are so stricken as to be incapable of determining other methods of handling the situation. When one aborts the baby, the same thing can be said. Now, you, as most people who agree with the legal use of abortion always bring up "what if" circumstances that are nothing more than anecdotal scraps used to allow people the right to abort their offspring. Empirically the fact is that only 5% of abortions are used by women who have been raped. How many women are raped, that conceive a child? NOT VERY MANY. Abortion is primarily used persons age 15-23 because they conceived under irresponsible circumstances.

Even if the baby had a disease, that still makes up for a small percentage of reasons that women would abort their offspring. Also, how long does it take for a doctor to prognose any life threatening ailments? I am extremely happy that the bi-partisan bill prohibiting partial birth abortions has become law.

Sorry if I hold men and women accountable for their, but it takes two to tango. Why should tax dollars be used because an 18 year old girl is to embarrassed to buy a condom, or is so irresponsible that she and her partner had not stopped to consider the consequences of their action. Maybe more money should be going to schools rather than the depletion of the human population.

Some one mentioned that human could not be defined, well I beg to differ. The offspring can easily be defined as a political human being. It receives security, and means of survival via "mom." We as social beings receive our means of security and survival via the state. If a police man walked up to someone and shot them in the head while on their lunch break, there would mass hysteria and anger towards the state. When a women desires to abort her baby, she is treated differently. A police officer is supposed to protect his/her citizens, while a mother is supposed to protect her baby. This is why both situations provoke irony.

To acknowledge something some brought up: "personhood." That is a psychological term which has no relevance in this arguement. Human is a biological term, and that is all that matters. One can only kill something which is biological, or something that is living. Therefore, one can not even grasp a psychological sense without first having the biological definition of life.

Abortion is another mechanism that the left uses to deprive the individuals of accountability.

I personally also find it odd that a mother can so readily kill her offspring. A mother is biologically structured as the nurturer of the offspring, yet some mothers seek to find ways to rid themselves of it.

And Anon. A democracy derives its political legitimacy from the millions of people that vote. As long as people are voting, democracy will remain. When people stop, another form of government will find political legitimacy...tyrannical dictatorial regimes. You should pat yourself on the back for helping this process.

[surferarmo]

Originally posted by jahannam ouh ouh so lets give that responsibility/job to the Bush Administration.:rolleyes:

You cant, he gave it back to you when he proposed and the congress passed the bi-partisan prohibition of partial birth abortions.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by surferarmo I believe that politicians SHOULD be making these decisions. Who else is going to implement policy?

You don't think people should make their own decisions? So you're saying they are stupid and therefore politicians must make their decisions? You like telling other people what to do don't you? Hehehehe. Welcome back. Like old times.

[surferarmo]

ANON, I GOT STATS, READ THE LONG POST AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE.

[surferarmo]

Originally posted by jahannam oh God.
here we go again
the 111th "abortion" thread or something.
anyway
I'll say this again...
no matter how many times you say "abortion is murder", it's a solution to a lot of problems, and it's gonna go on.
make it legal.
make it illegal.
neither doctors nor expecting women care.
if they're gonna do it, they're gonna do it.
you can't stop science.
you can't slow down technology.

That is the reason politicians and people make policy in the first place. Someone has committed an act, if it is not harmful to the state, then no worries, if it is...POLICY.

[surferarmo]

Originally posted by Baron Dants Alright, let me rephrase, so that our fellow american readers can understand. My initial point was that the subject of abortion is not one that can be based on UNDENIABLE proof, and is only based on personal values. That is why, most people cannot back themselves up with anything more than their own beliefs. Which eventually leads to redundancy.

Once again, I don't understand what surfer is saying when he speaks of being indoctrinated with the same ideas as I am, as I personally have not yet formed an opinion on abortion, mostly because there is no proof to sway me on one side or another. I would have a hard time justifying why a 14 year old or a rape victim must keep her baby though...

Baron, I have evidence and numbers to back up my point of view on this. I looked up these numbers and will gladly provide links and leads where you can look them up yourself.

Just for you my Canadian friend.

[surferarmo]

I have a question. How can you be opposed to manipulating the genetics of an offspring to determine its sex, when you are for manipulating the genetics to incur abortion?

Hypocrisy at its finest!

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by surferarmo Baron, I have evidence and numbers to back up my point of view on this. I looked up these numbers and will gladly provide links and leads where you can look them up yourself.

Just for you my Canadian friend.

Well, your post above was interesting. But 58-63% who are against abortion still leaves 37-42% who are for it. And if abortion is made illegal, what DOES happen to the 5% who WERE rape victims?

Personally speaking, I would never consider an abortion (for my partner obviously :D ) because I find that the parents have a huge responsibility even for the unborn child.

But as Jahannam said, no matter what you think, some people are going to think otherwise, and will still try to get it.

[surferarmo]

Originally posted by Baron Dants Well, your post above was interesting. But 58-63% who are against abortion still leaves 37-42% who are for it. And if abortion is made illegal, what DOES happen to the 5% who WERE rape victims?

Personally speaking, I would never consider an abortion (for my partner obviously :D ) because I find that the parents have a huge responsibility even for the unborn child.

But as Jahannam said, no matter what you think, some people are going to think otherwise, and will still try to get it.

If you support any law, say for instance laws that prohibit murder, what would you say if I replied, "people are going to murder other people anyway?"

Or if you spoke against war in general and I said " War is inevitable between states anyway?"

So I ask you and J, should we not have laws against rape? SHould we not have laws against criminals? Should we not have property laws?

Do you see why that response is sort of elementary. Their needs to be policy which discourages abortion en masse.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by surferarmo If you support any law, say for instance laws that prohibit murder, what would you say if I replied, "people are going to murder other people anyway?"

Or if you spoke against war in general and I said " War is inevitable between states anyway?"

So I ask you and J, should we not have laws against rape? SHould we not have laws against criminals? Should we not have property laws?

Do you see why that response is sort of elementary. Their needs to be policy which discourages abortion en masse.

The difference is that abortion is still not accepted as being something that is outright WRONG. Very lucid people can make strong arguments for abortion, which is not the case for rape, murder, yevayln.

[patlajan]

I would like to abort this thread. Next someone will put up a thread about the death panalty. I'm getting sleepy just thinking about it.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by patlajan I would like to abort this thread. Next someone will put up a thread about the death panalty. I'm getting sleepy just thinking about it.

hahahaha! And gay marriages after that. It's like english class all over again. :D

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by surferarmo
And Anon. A democracy derives its political legitimacy from the millions of people that vote. As long as people are voting, democracy will remain. When people stop, another form of government will find political legitimacy...tyrannical dictatorial regimes. You should pat yourself on the back for helping this process.

Actually, democracy leads to tyranny, or uhh haven't we learned history yet?

[patlajan]

Originally posted by Anonymouse Actually, democracy leads to tyranny, or uhh haven't we learned history yet?

Everything leads to tyrany, get over it.

[fstkhnan]

I think it's ok if the fetus is 3 months and younger.....but after that...it shouldne happen!

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by patlajan Everything leads to tyrany, get over it.

Just Democracy.

[libra98k]

AS I keep following for a period of time this forum is turning into xxxxin politics.

what's up with you guys? Drop the politic bullxxxx and post some sarcastic funny threads. It feels as if my grandma was the forum administrator. what the xxxx???

[patlajan]

Originally posted by libra98k AS I keep following for a period of time this forum is turning into xxxxin politics.

what's up with you guys? Drop the politic bullxxxx and post some sarcastic funny threads. It feels as if my grandma was the forum administrator. what the xxxx???

Tell me about it. We know who's fault this is.

[loseyourname]

Me and the Mouse, for the most part. You guys want non-serious threads, start them yourselves. Quit whining about what others are doing and take a little initiative. Until then, you sound like my two year-old niece when she doesn't get the TV program she wants.

[loseyourname]

Originally posted by Anonymouse I don't see what this has anything to do with my position on abortion.

It doesn't. I'm just arguing that you can't simply trust the strong not to abuse the weak, and that we should have laws in place. I don't necessarily like the process we currently have to make those laws, but until something is done about it, the best we can do is attempt to influence that process.

[loseyourname]

If you don't like the forum, leave it. Nobody's forcing you to stay. If you don't like the threads, start your own. Nobody's forcing you to read and post to these. You can be an actor, or a reactor.

Good work deleting your post so that this no longer makes any sense.

[violette829]

Instead of focusing on so many technical questions regarding when the fetus is at "age" to be considered human, we need to point our attention on making sure that these instances do not occur in the first place. Alright, here we go....if u are 16 and u have sex, u get pregnant...was it the sperm or egg's fault that u wanted to spread ur legs and not use protection? They are just doing their natural job, which is to swim and suck up...this is the way our bodies are made. Another case, which bothers me, is rape. All rape can be prevented. It is NEVER the woman's fault, but rather the fault of a society that exposes sex in such a manner that women have no choice as to when, where, and with who they have sex with. It is all of our faults for raising little boys in front of the BOOB TUBE, which spews out infestations of sex-related actions, clearly showing the men dominating the women. I know that this doesn't imply to everyone, so shut the xxxx up! We are breeding these kids to be like this...then we wonder why. It is a woman's body and she should have the choice....but I'm talking about preventing things like this from even happening.
Parents need to speak openly about sex to their children. They need to provide information on contraceptives, birth control, condoms...etc... We must be open with our children, while bringing up such topics as pregnancy and STD's.
As Jahannam stated, there is always going to be mothers who don't want to be pregnant. Whether it is legal or not, they will find some way of getting rid of their "problem". I think we need to focus more on prevention...not on intervention.

[Nimrod]

Absolutely true.



Here is the solution that way we do not engage in such silly rubbish anymore about "abortion." If you want a solution here it is: DONT SPREAD YOUR LEGS AND BE RESPONSIBLE. LEARN TO NOT GET YOURSELF INTO THAT POSITION THAT WAY YOU WONT HAVE TO SIT THERE AND KEEP PONDER AS TO WHETHER OR NOT YOU WILL "have it aborted" or not.

[libra98k]

use double condoms

[ILOVETATA]

What if the girl was raped? Should she still keep the child? :confused: I think abortion should apply to certain cases such as rape. It would be so hard for a girl to go through a nine month pregnancy knowing every day that the baby she's carrying was through rape. :(

[libra98k]

Originally posted by ILOVETATA What if the girl was raped? Should she still keep the child? :confused:

no, but she should of kept a pepper spray and empty the bottle on rapist penis.

[Shahumyan]

Originally posted by Nimrod Absolutely true.



Here is the solution that way we do not engage in such silly rubbish anymore about "abortion." If you want a solution here it is: DONT SPREAD YOUR LEGS AND BE RESPONSIBLE. LEARN TO NOT GET YOURSELF INTO THAT POSITION THAT WAY YOU WONT HAVE TO SIT THERE AND KEEP PONDER AS TO WHETHER OR NOT YOU WILL "have it aborted" or not.

How will that solve issue of abortion? do people in rape "spread their legs"? your such a dumb xxxx, run on mindless emotions. And what if the child will suffer in life if they have severe disability?

[ILOVETATA]

Originally posted by Shahumyan How will that solve issue of abortion? do people in rape "spread their legs"?

Exactly what I was saying.

[Anonymouse]

Ok, xxxx you all this is cliche, if I was the mother of all of you, I would have aborted you.

[patlajan]

I see skies of blue and clouds of white. The bright blessed day, the dark sacred night. And I think to myself......what a wonderul world...:p

[libra98k]

Originally posted by Anonymouse Ok, xxxx you all this is cliche, if I was the mother of all of you, I would have aborted you.

thank god your're not.

[patlajan]

This thread should have never been born.

[SagGal]

OMG!!! I should have never made this thread. ugh:mad: Perhaps Emil can delete it.
PLEASE DELETE IT!

[sSsflamesSs]

SagGal, chill out. The eggplant made a funny that was relevant to the thread. Read again, hehehe.

[Shahumyan]

i see our friend Nimrod was unnable to answer, maybe he ran to his foster mum for help, piece of xxxxe.

[Aphrodit3]

I'm definitely Pro-CHOICE.
Although, I doubt my maternal instincts would allow me to give up my own child.

For victims of rape, incest and those at risk of having children with fatal birth defects, it's nice to have a choice. The rest is up to them. No one else should decide for them.

I may be wrong here but I think you're only allowed to have an abortion if the fetus is younger than four months. Or maybe up to the first trimester. The argument here is, it's not considered human yet, it's just a ball of cells.

[sSsflamesSs]

This issue's too complicated to be categorized. You need to consider it from a case-to-case basis.

[Aphrodit3]

Originally posted by SagGal OMG!!! I should have never made this thread. ugh:mad: Perhaps Emil can delete it.
PLEASE DELETE IT!

:(
I'm glad you made it. Besides, if you hadn't, someone else would have.

[loseyourname]

Originally posted by Nimrod Absolutely true.



Here is the solution that way we do not engage in such silly rubbish anymore about "abortion." If you want a solution here it is: DONT SPREAD YOUR LEGS AND BE RESPONSIBLE. LEARN TO NOT GET YOURSELF INTO THAT POSITION THAT WAY YOU WONT HAVE TO SIT THERE AND KEEP PONDER AS TO WHETHER OR NOT YOU WILL "have it aborted" or not.

I hate to say it, but Anakin's right. I know I come across as some kind of sexual maverick with all my talk of liberation and open discussion, but discussion is one thing and free love is quite another. I definitely think people should be more responsible. But that really is beside the point here. The question asked is: Should an unwanted pregnancy ever be terminated, and under what circumstances? I still answer no, and I have given my reasons. Nobody has answered them.

[surferarmo]

Originally posted by Anonymouse You don't think people should make their own decisions? So you're saying they are stupid and therefore politicians must make their decisions? You like telling other people what to do don't you? Hehehehe. Welcome back. Like old times.

I have decided. You can yell at me from your private plot of land. I will just have the police escort you as soon as I get the first noise complaint. Hehehe. Old times.

[SagGal]

Originally posted by sSsflamesSs SagGal, chill out. The eggplant made a funny that was relevant to the thread. Read again, hehehe.
Originally posted by Aphrodit3 :( I'm glad you made it. Besides, if you hadn't, someone else would have.alrighty, then argue this issue all u want plz:)