Mind Over Matter

[loseyourname]

From yahoo:

Placebo Effect (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=585&ncid=585&e=1&u=/nm/20040219/sc_nm/science_placebo_dc_1)

Apparently, people can be tricked into feeling better without any external biochemical manipulation. This would seem to lead to the conclusion that it should be possible for a human being to simply will himself into alleviation of symptoms. What do you think?

[SexyAries]

Hmmm this sounds very familiar!!!!



Nice to know my opinions actual ment something and now its proven!!!!!!

Sorry lose I've elaborated on this subject so many times, I can't think of something new to say about it! When I do I will post!


Love you Lose!:D

[sSsflamesSs]

I don't doubt it for a second - the mind is a very powerful thing.

Here's another scenario...

I heard this story from someone, and apparently, it's supposed to be based on facts.

The big guys in power decided that they wanted to conduct an experiment on one of the inmates of the prison. They tied this guy to a chair, hands behind his back, and manipulated him into believing that they were going to pour boiling water on his hands. They kept repeating this for hours. Finally, they did pour some water on his hands, although the temperature was far from boiling, more like room temperature.

The guy got 3rd degree burns.

[ckBejug]

I agree with flames... I don't doubt it either. I think I've heard that water burn story somewhere (class maybe?).

Faith/belief has a lot to do with this. You believe you are going to get better as a result of taking the medicine.

Faith can heal - not religious faith specifically, but faith and confidence that what medicines you're taking and steps you're taking to feel better are acutally going to make you well. One thing about placebo's- the more confident both patients and doctors are in what they are doing, the more likely people are to heal.

Carl Elliott- London Review of Books, explaining how important placebos can be:

...people who take their placebos diligently do better than those who take them only occasionally; placebo injections work better than placebo pills; brand name placebos relieve pain better than generic placebos; and blue placebos are better sedatives than red ones - except for Italian men, for whom the opposite is true. If phenomena like this puzzle us it is because we have grown too accustomed to the machinery model of medicine, whereby the body is reduced to a complex device and doctors to mechanics. According to the machinery model, placebos should not work at all. Placebos don't work "mechanically," they work socially and psychologically. They work because of our attitudes and beliefs. It's not just a matter of what goes on in our heads, but what goes on in our interactions with other people and the larger culture around us...

When it comes to healing, feeling better, getting well, it is very much a matter of confidence and optimism - when people feel confident and "in control," it isn't unusual for them to do better. This fact goes above and beyond clinical matters...

And what do you think of this? "blue placebos are better sedatives than red ones - except for Italian men, for whom the opposite is true." Hmmm!

[loseyourname]

You guys are ignoring my question at the end? Do you think, given this evidence, that a person can consciously will himself, without the aid of a placebo or any other suggestion, into alleviation of symptoms?

[sSsflamesSs]

Originally posted by loseyourname You guys are ignoring my question at the end? Do you think, given this evidence, that a person can consciously will himself, without the aid of a placebo or any other suggestion, into alleviation of symptoms?

Loser, humans are weak. They need something to believe in (a placebo). So in response to your question, I'd have to say no. I'm sure that there can be exceptions, as there are to anything. However, the majority of people would not be able to control their minds, much less their bodies. Is that sufficient for an explanation?

[ckBejug]

Originally posted by loseyourname You guys are ignoring my question at the end? Do you think, given this evidence, that a person can consciously will himself, without the aid of a placebo or any other suggestion, into alleviation of symptoms?

No. Placebo's work because the person doesn't know that it is a placebo. He thinks he's getting the real thing. Without the aid of something like the placebo I doubt someone could just sit there and wish to feel better and do so...

[SexyAries]

I agree!

[loseyourname]

Originally posted by ckBejug No. Placebo's work because the person doesn't know that it is a placebo. He thinks he's getting the real thing. Without the aid of something like the placebo I doubt someone could just sit there and wish to feel better and do so...

This at least proves that it is theoretically possible. If external suggestion can produce the desired effects, then autosuggestion should be able to do the same. The question is one of willpower and belief.

[ckBejug]

Originally posted by loseyourname This at least proves that it is theoretically possible. If external suggestion can produce the desired effects, then autosuggestion should be able to do the same. The question is one of willpower and belief.

If it is something like an anxiety disorder, or some kind of manic mood disorder, I can see how believing that you will be better and willing yourself to feel better, being optimistic, confident, and happy, can indeed bring upon some desired effect... However, foe something more than those kinds of emotional problems, say for example cancer, it seems that there needs to be the suggestion of something that will lead to a cure of the ailment- for example a placebo that could be in the form of fake surgery, or pills, or injections, etc. Did you read what I quoted in my first reply about how placebo effects vary in their degrees of helpfullness? Sure, we can very well trick our mind into believing we are being administered something that is going make us better, and we get better. However, it seems unlikely that in the absence of such a tangible thing we'd be able to feel better just by autosuggestion.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by loseyourname From yahoo:

Placebo Effect (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=585&ncid=585&e=1&u=/nm/20040219/sc_nm/science_placebo_dc_1)

Apparently, people can be tricked into feeling better without any external biochemical manipulation. This would seem to lead to the conclusion that it should be possible for a human being to simply will himself into alleviation of symptoms. What do you think?

I think this is interesting.

Let's not forget when we are stressed, struck with anxiety, our immune system lowers and therefore we become susceptible to disease. Mind is body and body is mind. I love doing my 3 mile run. Makes me feel good mentally.

[Crimson Glow]

Originally posted by sSsflamesSs Loser, humans are weak. They need something to believe in (a placebo).

Like God?? (Sorry......I'm not religion bashing....but....I couldn't help myself in the face of oppurtunity) :D :p

However, the majority of people would not be able to control their minds, much less their bodies.

I guess that depends where you were brought up. In Western civilization, yes. People are very weak, and very superficial. A shallow person is not going to be in tune with his or her mind-body connection, so how would they ever know of the possibilities?

Then there's freaks like the Shaolin Monks with INCREDIBLE mind over body control, and not just in regards to their kung-fu. I've seen them do some things that most people here would consider humanly impossible (watched an hour long documentary).

But let's forget the extremes. Let's look at more "graspable" evidence. How about anxiety disorders, or panick attacks? Some people cannot get by without medicine for this mental disorder created within one's own mind. Others are able to stop attacks of the disorder through mind over body control, calming the reaction by concentrating and commanding the body to relax.

We need to let go of the surface value of reality, and sink deeper into what is possible. If the mind is strong enough to create heart attack like symptoms even though it's never experienced one, just imagine what else it's capable of. People for some reason fear exploring these boundries. Hell, they fear discussing anything about life except for money, sex, and power. This is the reason we've lost touch with the human mind. Your inner healing ability isn't going to impress the Jones' next door, and people aren't interested in things that don't make others envious of them. Unfortunately, I don't see that healing any time soon.

[Aphrodit3]

Yes, I think autosuggestion should do the same. A person's mind has to somehow be manipulated into accepting a better state of being without the treatment. I think if willpower is strong enough, it is possible to produce the same results without a placebo. It's a neurochemical effect, is it not? If you can get the body to produce the necessary hormones without external manipulation, then you can induce those reactions. I've heard of starving people who made the feelings of hunger disappear by simply thinking that they were full. There is also the case of pseudocyesis.

[sSsflamesSs]

Originally posted by Crimson Glow

Like God?? (Sorry......I'm not religion bashing....but....I couldn't help myself in the face of oppurtunity) :D :p [/B]

Ha ha, cute.

I guess that depends where you were brought up. In Western civilization, yes. People are very weak, and very superficial. A shallow person is not going to be in tune with his or her mind-body connection, so how would they ever know of the possibilities?

Then there's freaks like the Shaolin Monks with INCREDIBLE mind over body control, and not just in regards to their kung-fu. I've seen them do some things that most people here would consider humanly impossible (watched an hour long documentary).

But let's forget the extremes. Let's look at more "graspable" evidence. How about anxiety disorders, or panick attacks? Some people cannot get by without medicine for this mental disorder created within one's own mind. Others are able to stop attacks of the disorder through mind over body control, calming the reaction by concentrating and commanding the body to relax.

We need to let go of the surface value of reality, and sink deeper into what is possible. If the mind is strong enough to create heart attack like symptoms even though it's never experienced one, just imagine what else it's capable of. People for some reason fear exploring these boundries. Hell, they fear discussing anything about life except for money, sex, and power. This is the reason we've lost touch with the human mind. Your inner healing ability isn't going to impress the Jones' next door, and people aren't interested in things that don't make others envious of them. Unfortunately, I don't see that healing any time soon.

My response was regarding the majority of people, not monks :). But yes, people of the Western world are weaker in that sense, for they are obsessed with materialism.

I was referring to the placebo effect when it has to do with the diseases of the body, not the mind.

[Aphrodit3]

Originally posted by Anonymouse Let's not forget when we are stressed, struck with anxiety, our immune system lowers and therefore we become susceptible to disease.


Ha! I get the flu during finals week...every damn semester!

[sSsflamesSs]

What I am wondering is, what is the explanation for this phenomenon? If, according to some people :rolleyes:, we are only material things that function in a mechanical way, be it emotions explained through neurotransmitters and receptors, or other such things, how is the placebo effect even possible?

[ckBejug]

Originally posted by sSsflamesSs What I am wondering is, what is the explanation for this phenomenon? If, according to some people :rolleyes:, we are only material things that function in a mechanical way, be it emotions explained through neurotransmitters and receptors, or other such things, how is the placebo effect even possible?

Well if the placebo is making our body have physical manifestations of feeling better... as in mechanical processes.. then I guess all the same processes would occur that do when an actual drug is administered. Do you think maybe like if we KNOW the drug targets a certain part of our immune system or something and we know what we should EXPECT to happen then say the drug had the effect of releasing hormones that target neurotransmitters that in turn target increase in production of t-cells, b-cells, and other immune system cells, so the placebo works in the same way? We know the drug itself has an effect on certain areas of our mind in control of the immune system activities, and the placebo just acts the same way... Maybe?

What I'd love to know is what specific illnesses placebo's had a greater effect on. Like I said before, it's very understandable that emotional problems might be overcome with anything that might make us decidedly happier, more confident. etc, so that in and of itself releases hormones like endorphins that would make us feel better... but has there been strong proof of this placebo effect on illnesses like disease (not of the mind but of the body) and cancer?

[violette829]

I think this is true except in cases of extreme illness. My father was diagnosed with cancer about 3 years ago, and until the last second, the doctors were giving him hope for survival. I do think he had a lot of hope. They tried SO many different drugs on him...nothing worked, but the doctor never told him that directly. We specifically asked him not to give my dad any bad news. They would just try one thing after another, but somehow, my dad knew exactly when he was going to die. He predicted his death to be around that of his dad's. November....he kept saying I won't live for December...Sure enough...anyway....

Yea, the power of the mind is fascinating. But, not in all cases. Though I think it is significant enough to be tested, I don't think it's smart to suggest this to real patients.

I know I can heal myself when I'm sick. I don't know if that has anything to do with this, but I hate medicine. When I feel the flu coming on, I usually don't pay attention to it. I just go on with life, as usual, pretending that it's not happening...and it usually doesn't even get to the point where I need any medication! It's really awesome!

GO BRAIN!

[töö____müch]

Once you are in control .. the extreme and the smallest will not matter, cause there's no difference then.. and you wont need any placebo .. cause if ur cured by a placebo .. you will be sick again with a placebo .. That’s not the pure thing "mind power"..

[dusken]

I am speaking ignorantly and without experience when I say I think the cases in which the placebo effect would work is when the mind is preventing the ailment from being overcome. The power of the mind can indeed work the other way. As a matter of fact I would expect it to be far more probable that the mind perceive something that is not there as opposed to physically eliminating something that is in fact there because, let us face it, an ailment is most likely cause by a foreign presence. Can the mind make bacteria or viruses disappear? What seems more reasonable to me is if the mind continues to "perceive" the hypothetical bacteria after their effects have worn off and the placebo would easy the mind out of that perception after the ailments natural course. I may not be giving the conducted tests enough credit but that is what comes to mind.

[spookyghost]

hmm, i think its soul over mind, then over matter..... but thats just me .

i believe our souls control our minds, we have the power to distroy ourselves and vise versa. Yes it is all mental, but i believe there is something higher controling that mental state.

some might argue otherwise.
and yes, i believe that this is only a shell that contains mind and soul. it wouldnt matter what shell we had really.

[loseyourname]

Hell yeah it matters what shell we have. If I was fat or ugly, I'd shoot myself.

[spiral]

" If " .......?

[loseyourname]

Have you joined the chorus? Et tu, spiral?

[spiral]

What chorus?...

[Anonymouse]

Hell yeah it matters what shell we have. If I was fat or ugly, I'd shoot myself.

I'd provide you with the gun, free of charge. http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v96/Anonymouse/laugh.gif

[spookyghost]

i believe a soul is a soul, you can put it in any body, and it is still what it is, the soul

our bodys are like taking your clothing off at night and going to bed.
i believe in past, present and future lives which are infinite, untill the person is ready to go home.
home may be a heaven or another world :)