Liberation of Western Armenia

[Armenian]

Liberation of Western Armenia
http://www.landmarksfoundation.org/images_projects/images_akhtamar/akhtamar07.jpg


The question regarding whether or not we Armenians would be able to 'liberate' our western lands have been raised recently. I would like to address this by first saying that this issue in question is a very complex geopolitical matter, thus it cannot be answered quite that easily.

No one but God knows when the day will come when we will able to send Armenian army units into Van, that glorious day may or may not happen within our life times. However, we as a nation need to be vigilant and ready if and when that day arrives. If we are not ready to take our lands back - then there is no chance what-so-ever. However, if we are ready and work towards that particular goal - then there is a chance, a good chance. Therefore, its up to us as a people to decide what we want for our future. Sadly, many Armenians today have already given up, and that is the main obstacle we face, not Turks.

The enemy is us.

The last thing I want is for us to be asleep at the wheel when the opportunity comes. Most Armenians were sleeping at the wheel or scared into inaction during 1915. Had we been well organized back then we would have been able to carve a huge amount of our historic lands and there would not have been an Armenian Genocide to lament over. Of course, the Bolshevik revolution and the chaos in Europe did not help our cause either, but that's - Hayu bakhd@ - for you again. However, that was then this is now, lets look ahead.

Anyway, getting our lands back is based upon various geopolitical socioeconomic factors. We need to work on these various factors, we need to be patient, and we need to hope for the best. I firmly believe we will liberate our lands, I just don't know when that time will be. That is one of the fundamental reasons why I say "no relations with Turks what-so-ever." Yes, of course our Republic needs to engage in political dialoug and give lip service to the superpowers that be, but our real national interests must burn bright within us. I will now briefly address the arguments regarding the aspects of getting our lands back:

How will we defend the land?

Those lands in question can easily be protect and defended by a well armed, well trained modern military force. The land is rugged and alpine, once you aquire it and dig in, you are in total control - look at Artsakh. Also, if you do have a nuclear bomb behind you, you are virtually untouchable - look at North Korea, Pakistan and very soon Iran. Besides, I only envision making a move onto western Armenia when the Turkish nation is unable to defend its-self. What's more, if the time is right, Russia and/or Iran may want to participate. In other words, when the Turk is vulnerable you stomp on its head as fast as you can and as hard as you can and you don't stop until you accomplish your mission. Let's not forget, politics is dirty business, we also need to dirty ourselves once in a while.

We need to get rid of our Genocide complexes. We need to get rid our our Diaspora mentalities. Unfortunately, we Armenians think small. When one thinks small one accomplishes small. In this respect, I have a lot more hope in Hayastantis than in diasporans. Hayastantsis don't have these Diaspora derived mental hang ups, as we saw in Artsakh. Moreover, they are free thinkers, shrewd, rash and they are cut-throat, all these work well in politics. As a result, the foreign policy formulations of Yerevan today is excellent, they are well balanced, nationalistic and clever. That is also the reason why I respect the ARF: Regardless of your sentiments are towards them, I know them to be shrewd, well organized, well disciplined and aggressive. And today, they are the only ones in the diaspora that preserves our nationalistic pride and cause.

What about the Kurds?

The Kurds will have a nation they may want to move to in norther Iraq or the south of Van. Those who decide to remain in our historic lands will simply have to become Armenian citizens, just as they are Turkish citizens now. If they decide to give us a hard time, then they simply have to pack and leave as well, its no big deal. In times of geo-political chaos, these things occur naturally. Israel has been able to displace close to a million Lebanese in two shot weeks. The Artsakh army was able to do the same with Azeris in 1993. The Kurds are quite disorganized and disunited, therefore Armenians need not worry much about them as a military/politcal factor.

What is so important about our lands?

The lands we want hold great sentimental value. That is where our genealogy began, it is where human civilization began, its where our martyred ancestors lie in unmarked graves. More importantly, the land belongs to us legally. Moreover, the land has vast economic, strategic and political value. The region is rich in natural resources and agricultural potential. I envision the Republic of Armenia growing in population within the next hundred. Therefore, we will eventually need our lands back. Every Armenian wants to see a prosperous Armenia, right? Well, a prosperous Armenia will need to expand eventually. So, what better land than 'ours' to expand into? What's more, the only way we Armenians can get respect from the international community is by creating a large powerful nation. A nation that would be able to sit on the table, as an equal, with the regional superpowers.

As long as we remain small, dependent and vulnerable, the international community will spit on us - its quite natural. Whether or not we will be able to get our lands back is based upon the following factors. We are making good progress in many areas, but there is a lot more to accomplish:

The out-come of the Artsakh issue

The strength of the Armenian economy

The strength of the Armenian military

The strength and ideological conviction of the Armenian Diaspora

Whether or not Armenia develops and nuclear bomb

Superpower interests within the region

Strong Armenian-Iranians relations

Strong Armenian-Russian relations

Armenian-Kurdish relations

Armenian-Arab relations

Armenian-EU relations

Turkey's internal problems - social and economic

Turkey's external problems - political and military

Unexpected "natural" disasters

The above are the factors that would potentially dictate whether or not we will be able to regain our lands. Obviously, its not simple, but as I said: If we keep this within our sights then there 'is' a chance, if we don't then there is 'no' chance. Thus, the pivotal factor is played by nobody but us.

Our people can be our worst obstacle, or our catalyst to a greater future.

[ArmenianKid]

how are we going to beat back the US backed turkish army?
even if we wait their weapons are much better. and they have many more soldiers.

[Armenian]

how are we going to beat back the US backed turkish army? even if we wait their weapons are much better. and they have many more soldiers.

You did not understand the essence of my message. You are thinking in the present. Things change over time. No one believed that the Soviet Union would fall apart. No one believed that Armenians would be able to beat the Azeri enemy that was much larger and much beter eguipped. American Turkish relations are based upon political interests. When politics change so can their relationship. What's more, Turks in reality, have not been able to do much militarily against Kurds, who are just a bunch of disorganized disunited gaurillas.

Also, Turkish military hardware is not modern, its about 20-30 years old. Yes, they have superior numbers, but numbers are relative. Re-read the essey I wrote, I am not calling for a war against Turkey, I simply want us to be ready for the day when Turkey is weak and the political situation is right. There might come a time when Turkey falls into civil war and the regional powers of Iran and Russia might want to take advantage of the situation by allowing and assisting the Armenian army's move westward.

Don't panic, I don't see this happening within the near future. Just keep western Armenia in your heart and be ready for an opportunity.

[Armenian]

Dashnaks Insist On Territorial Claims To Turkey

Armenia does not recognize Turkey’s territorial integrity and may in the future lay claim to lands that were populated by Armenians before the 1915 genocide, a senior member of the governing Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaktsutyun) claimed on Friday.

“The current government of which we are a part and the president whom we have supported and will support will not abandon territorial claims,” Giro Manoyan, a spokesman for the nationalist party’s ruling Bureau, said. “Armenia’s official position is that the issue is not on our foreign policy agenda. That means it can be on the agenda tomorrow.”

Recognition of Turkey’s current borders has been one of Ankara’s preconditions for normalizing relations with Armenia. Official Yerevan says it recognizes the existing Turkish-Armenian border which was set by the Treaty of Kars signed in 1921 following the country’s takeover by Bolshevik Russia. The government of the then Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic was among the treaty’s signatories

“Armenia is the successor state of the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic,” the Armenian Foreign Ministry explains on its website. “All of the agreements which the ASSR signed continue to be in force unless new agreements have been signed to replace them.”

At the same time the Armenian government has repeatedly dismissed Turkish demands to officially declare that it will never claim any lands in what is now eastern Turkey.

“No Armenian government can do that because I believe the Armenia people would not allow that government to remain in power,” Manoyan said during a roundtable discussion in Yerevan.

“The fact that there are no territorial claims today, does not mean we can’t lay such claims tomorrow,” he told RFE/RL separately.

The possibility of such claims has never been publicly acknowledged by President Robert Kocharian, Defense Minister Serzh Sarkisian and two other parties represented in Armenia’s government. In a famous 2001 interview with CNN-Turk television, Kocharian sought to assure Ankara that its recognition of the 1915-1918 mass killings of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire as genocide would not prompt territorial demands from Yerevan.

“Genocide recognition by Turkey will not lead to legal consequences for territorial claims,” Kocharian said at the time. “The problem is that those events have taken place in Turkey, and the Republic of Armenia did not exist at that time, and today's Republic of Armenia is not the heir to those lands,” he added.

David Phillips, a U.S. scholar who chaired the Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Commission, wrote in a 2005 book that Kocharian’s interview “helped mollify [Turkish] concerns about Armenia’s intentions.”

But according to Manoyan, the Armenian leader simply stated that “there is no such issue on the agenda of Armenian foreign policy today.” “The president also said genocide recognition would not automatically result in territorial claims,” he said, denying any disagreements on the issue between Kocharian and Dashnaktsutyun.

Manoyan revealed last summer that the party, which also has chapters in major Armenian communities abroad, plans a major shift in its long-running campaign for international recognition of the Armenian genocide. He said Dashnaktsutyun will strive to force Turkey to pay reparations.

Kocharian, however, had told CNN-Turk that for him genocide recognition is “more of a moral issue.”

Source: http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeni...EE76832E8B.ASP

[Armenian]

REPORT: NO BIG GAINS TO ARMENIA IF TURKEY LIFTS BLOCKADE

By Haroutiun Khachatrian: 8/09/05

A controversial report by an Armenian research and consulting group claims that reopening the Armenian-Turkish border would have a much smaller impact on Armenia’s economy than commonly believed.

The report was presented July 13 by the Armenian-European Political Legal Advice Center (AEPLAC), a prominent think tank sponsored by the European Union. It contended that Armenia would see its economy expand by only $20-23 million annually, or just 0.67 percent of its current Gross Domestic Product, if Turkey decided to lift its 12-year blockade of the Armenian border. Over the next five years, Armenia’s GDP would see an additional 2.7 percent increase over the country’s level in 2004.

The gain, the report maintained, would be almost exclusively the result of lower cargo transportation costs associated with the reopening of the Kars-Gyumri railroad that connects the two countries. Currently, Armenian goods can only reach trade partners via Georgia, which charges relatively high cargo tariffs. Transportation costs account for some 25-30 percent of Armenia’s trade costs, according to the report.

The report’s findings caught many Armenian academics and journalists by surprise. A widely cited 2000 World Bank study predicted that Armenia would see a 30-percent increase in GDP if both Turkey and Azerbaijan lifted their economic embargos. Since then, the Armenian economy has experienced impressive growth. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive]. Many observers and economists believed that lifting the blockade would boost those numbers still higher.

Turkey closed its border with Armenia in 1993 in an act of solidarity with Azerbaijan. At the time, Armenian and Azerbaijani forces were battling for control of the Nagorno-Karabakh enclave. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive]. The blockade cause substantial economic hardship in Armenia for much of the 1990s. In early 2004, Turkey reportedly considered re-opening the border, but eventually decided against it. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].

Turkish goods -- worth an estimated $40 million per year, according to the National Statistical Service of Armenia -- manage to enter Armenia via third countries. A general belief exists that if the border were re-opened, Armenia would be able to export a comparable amount of goods and services, namely electricity – to its western neighbor.

Many economists have challenged the report’s findings. They note that the analysis contained in the report, which was written by a seven-member team, largely concurs with recent statements made by various government officials, who have downplayed the need for an open Turkish-Armenian border. The daily Azg, for instance, commented on July 7 that the report’s argument provided strong support for Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanian’s position that Armenia will not make any political concessions to Turkey in return for the lifting of the border blockade. “If the economic impact of lifting the blockade is negligible, then there is no reason to open the border,” said a recent editorial published by the Russian-language Delovoi Ekspress. “And this is pure politics.”

Others take issue with the report’s statistical analysis. Economist Eduard Agajanov, who served as minister of statistics under former President Levon Ter-Petrosian (1991-1998), charged that the report underestimated the economic impact of reopening the Turkish-Armenian border in order to provide political support for President Robert Kocharian’s administration. “Its purpose is to preserve the current oligarchic economic system in Armenia, which cannot survive if the borders are opened and competition with Turkish goods becomes tougher,” Agajanov said. If Armenia regains access to markets of the Middle East via Turkey, Agajanov argued, it would stimulate a whole range of industries that were active during the Soviet era, when the Middle East and India were major markets.

The AEPLAC authors said they took various factors into account, including the 2000 World Bank study and the potential re-entry of Armenian companies into Middle Eastern markets. Ultimately, however, they decided that Armenian producers do not presently have the resources to meet demand in Turkey and the Middle East for goods, such as electricity and cement. At the same time, the report suggested that reopening the Turkish-Armenian border might stimulate economic growth in eastern regions of Turkey, where GDP per capita is even lower than in Armenia.

Although the authors of the AEPLAC report state that it was commissioned by the Armenian government, Trade and Economic Development Minister Karen Chshmaritian has denied that the government had anything to do with the preparation of the document.

At a July 27 press conference, Chshmairtian criticized the AEPLAC estimates as too conservative. “They have not taken into account the effect of mutual penetration of capital from the two countries. Turkey obviously hinders its businessmen from investing in Armenia, and when this ban is eliminated, growth may be highly accelerated,” he stated. To prove the point, Chshmaritian told reporters, the government is conducting its own research into the economic impact of Turkey lifting its border blockade. A report is due out later this year, he said.

Editor’s Note: Haroutiun Khachatrian is a Yerevan-based writer specializing in economic and political affairs.

Source: http://www.eurasianet.org/department...80905_pr.shtml

[Armenian]

ASALA UNION OF FORMER POLITICAL PRISONERS AND FREEDOM-FIGHTERS DEMANDS TO STOP "MEANINGLESS NEGOTIATIONS WITH ENEMY OF CENTURIES"

Noyan Tapan
Armenians Today
Feb 07 2006

YEREVAN, FEBRUARY 7, NOYAN TAPAN - ARMENIANS TODAY. The Republic
of Nagorno Karabakh, including liberated territories near it, are
unseparable part of the Armenian eternal Fatherland, towards which
the Armenian people has an exclusive right of supremacy. This is said
in the Febraury 6 statement of the "Ukht Ararati" (Oath of Ararat)
union of former political prisoners and freedom-fighters of the
Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA). Moreover,
the Artsakh problem hasn't been solved yet, the organization
sees this solution in completele making Armenian the territory
of about 43 square kilometers being under the Armenian soldiers'
supremacy. "We still have many territories of the Fatherland waiting
for liberation in the direction of what the RA authorities are obliged
to act," is said in the statement. The organization states that it's
completely inadmissible for him "appearing of so called international
peace-keeping forces in the Armenian Fatherland."

Continuing of the RA borders' blockade and information-psychological
war, brutal murder of Armenian soldier Gurgen Margarian in Budapest,
barbarous annihilation of Armenian spiritual heritage in Old Jugha
and other places planned by the state and numerous other facts,
according to the document author, leave no doubt that "Turks and
their kindred Azeris has even not a far wish to recognize even the
exitence of the Armenian people in its Fathrland." According to the
statement, "it's necessary not only to make any defeatist step but
to stop meaningless negotiations with enemies of centuries."

[Armenian]

Young Armenians against Normalization of Relations with Turkey And Azerbaijan

YEREVAN (Armenpress)--A survey conducted by Sociometer polling center revealed that the overwhelming majority of young Armenians are against normalization of relations with Turkey if this requires giving up Armenians' territorial claims to Turkey and without Turkey's acknowledgment of the 1915 genocide.

According to the Sociometer poll, 90 percent of respondents said they were against the improvement of relations with Turkey in that way.

The percentage of those who would seek economic and other ties with Turkey before it recognized the Genocide and met other Armenian demands was only 4 percent, while 6 percent were undecided.

Also 91 percent said they were against establishment of normal relations with Azerbaijan without the final settlement of the Karabagh issue. Only 2.9 percent said they would welcome it. The survey was conducted in order formulate Armenia's national youth policy.

[Armenian]

Stepan Stepanyan: Armenia Should Urge Turkey to Return Territories

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Armenia should raise the issue of returning of historical Armenian territories by Turkey, head of the department of history of the Armenian issue and Armenian Genocide of the Institute of History at the National Academy of Sciences Stepan Stepanyan. considers. In his words, to date 18 states have recognized the Armenian Genocide and this offers the reason to urge Turkey to return the territories. Stepanyan considers that the Armenian diplomats and Diaspora should play a significant role in the issue.

“We should not wait until all the states of the world recognize the Armenian Genocide. The diplomatic work should be targeted at the returning of historical Armenian territories. Turkey will never acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. Its barbarian attitude to the issue has not changed so far. On the contrary, when Armenia speaks of the opening of the Armenian-Turkish border or Karabakh conflict settlement Turkey tries to oblige Armenia to abandon the campaign on the Armenian Genocide recognition,” he said, reported Novosti-Armenia.

Link: http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=17545

[Armenian]

About the Denunciation of the Russian-Turkish Treaty

Authors Roger Gonnet, Smbat Karakhanian

Smbat Karakhanian is chairman of the Armenian National Club of Moscow, Miabanutiun.

Source Gazeta SNG (Russia)
Reference “О денонсации русско-турецкого Договора”, by Smbat Karakhanian, Gazeta SNG, April 14, 2005.

Summary Right now there is too much talking about both the formation of a civil society in terms of law and its integration in the international community. Out of consideration for international laws and regulations, it is really important to re-establish a historical justice. The geopolitical and strategic matters will not be settled without first solving the issue of the Armenian territories of a prior-to-the-revolution Russia. The March 16, 1921 Treaty between the Soviet Socialist Republic of Russia and the government of Kemalist Turkey is a clear example of the breach of the peoples’ rights. It must be borne in mind that since the summer of 1920, there were two government in Turkey: one in Ankara led by Mustafa Kemal (Atatürk); and another one internationally recognized in those days - the Constantinople government.

In the first part of the Treaty, Russia factually recognized the superiority of the Turkish decisions about the international conventions and the principles approved by the UN. In the second part - about the Black Sea and the straits - there are a number of articles not accomplished any more. On page 8, Russia recognized the zone controlled by the Kemalists in March, 1921, as an integral part of the «Turkish territories». Neither then nor now is there a single justification for this in terms of international law.

The Nakhitchevan province was part of the first Republic of Armenia since 1918, and of the Armenian part of the Czarist Russia since 1828. Mount Ararat (on which Noah’s Ark would run aground) was part of this province, of which Turkey took possession. Then, from February 9, 1924, Nakhitchevan became an autonomous republic within the Soviet Socialist Republic of Azerbaijan. This treaty conflicts with the Vienna Convention «on the laws of international treaties». The rights of the Russian, Armenian, Kurdish and Greek peoples have not been respected. So, the said treaty must be annulled or revised. It equally opposes the Statement of the Human Rights stipulated by the UN in 1948.

Together with the Armenian National Club Miabanutiun, we advocate the creation of a program aimed at settling the issue by stages. The first would consist of a Russian-Turkish agreement including the right for the descendants of the inhabitants of those regions to return, and then the right to re-establish our historical and cultural patrimony, the creation of an economic entity and the restoration of the old Christian churches.

Link: http://www.voltairenet.org/article30141.html#article30141

[Armenian]

http://www.haias.net/bilder/artsakh-pics/nkr-army6.jpg

One day this military parade will take place in Van.

[Archetype8]

This is a perfect time to chastise those islamic pious killer Turkic hordes. They are guilty of sponsoring anti-Armenian, anti-Christian policies anyhow and now they deserve to have a nuke with their name on it as well.

[Sip]

http://www.haias.net/bilder/artsakh-pics/nkr-army6.jpg

One day this military parade will take place in Van.


Kind of a depressing view of the future ... I would hope in a few hundred years people won't be as stuck on their geographic boundaries and sentimental values of "their" land. I would hope in a few hundred years we will have moved beyond these arbitrary breakdowns by "nation".

I wouldn't mind seeing the United Countries of the World operating more like the states operate in the US rather than the current "countries". Along these lines, the European Union is definitely on the right track to achieving this exact thing in the near term (hundred years?). But in a few hundred years, I would hope this would spread to around the globe.

[Archetype8]

Kind of a depressing view of the future ... I would hope in a few hundred years people won't be as stuck on their geographic boundaries and sentimental values of "their" land. I would hope in a few hundred years we will have moved beyond these arbitrary breakdowns by "nation".

I wouldn't mind seeing the United Countries of the World operating more like the states operate in the US rather than the current "countries". Along these lines, the European Union is definitely on the right track to achieving this exact thing in the near term (hundred years?). But in a few hundred years, I would hope this would spread to around the globe.


Excuse me? That is a nice utopian view but I also have an appendum to that: in a few hundred years I wish you would realize that these "nations" that were subjugated it is not about "land" as much as us trying to live our lives with freedom and prosperity and less oppression. Therefore, in a few hundred years when these criminals that inflicted that heinous genocide upon our people give us back what they stole, then we might sit and ponder a compromise. But till then, I wish you would expand the narrow mind more and realize that it is not about being "stuck in the past" but rather seeking justice from it and you have no right to give any judgment about that.

[Archetype8]

As a matter of fact, try to take insight from the hindsight and tell this rebuttal you have to the Turks who care less of your and all other christian Armenians' lives. If you can get them to compromise and compensate like civil people about what they have done, then bliss ninny consider it a deal, till then I want justice for their injustice.

[Sip]

In my envisioned utopia of the future, there are no "Turks" ;)

[Fedayeen]

You did not understand the essence of my message. You are thinking in the present. Things change over time. No one believed that the Soviet Union would fall apart. No one believed that Armenians would be able to beat the Azeri enemy that was much larger and much beter eguipped. American Turkish relations are based upon political interests. When politics change so can their relationship. What's more, Turks in reality, have not been able to do much militarily against Kurds, who are just a bunch of disorganized disunited gaurillas.

Also, Turkish military hardware is not modern, its about 20-30 years old. Yes, they have superior numbers, but numbers are relative. Re-read the essey I wrote, I am not calling for a war against Turkey, I simply want us to be ready for the day when Turkey is weak and the political situation is right. There might come a time when Turkey falls into civil war and the regional powers of Iran and Russia might want to take advantage of the situation by allowing and assisting the Armenian army's move westward.

Don't panic, I don't see this happening within the near future. Just keep western Armenia in your heart and be ready for an opportunity.

Agreed VERY much.

Given the history of US and its relations with other countries, US always backstabs, and one day it will come the day when they will leave Turkey hanging from a tree, and we should not miss the oportunity to cut the rope

No one until today benefited in a long run by kissing US's ass

[HayotzAmrotz]

I think every member of this forum, especially an Armenian one, would greatly benefit if he or she reads the Armenian’s essay, which to put it in one word, is brilliant.

[Otto3]

Armenian you are a dangerous man

[Armenian]

Armenian you are a dangerous man

Who, me?!?!?! :o

Listen Turkoglu, you are going to lose your eastern regions, without a doubt. I ask: Wouldn't you want to lose it to us Armenians :) instead of Kurds :evil: ? If I was a Turk, I'd give up those lands to Armenians right now and save all of us a lot of potential misery and blood shed. Trust me, its in the Turkish intertest to give up those lands to Armenians. :naughty:

[Otto3]

i said you are dangerous because you are approaching the issue logically and systematically.... ofcourse i prefer Armenians... actually who can be dumb enough to give lands to kurds.. it would be a great shame.. i want a real enemy who has the balls to earn some land not mountain goats
at least we can say we lost land to some worthy people

but i prefer not giving anything without some fight ofcourse...

[Anonymouse]

At this rate, neither Turks nor Armenians will possess those lands at the rate in which the Kurds are breeding.

[Davo88]

We also have some legal backing. The Treaty of Sèvres (with Wilsonian Armenia) was signed by both Armenian and Turkish governments, but the Treaty of Lausanne, which established the current borders of Turkey, was signed only by the Turkish government.

Armenian, when talking about Western Armenia, do you have the map of the Sevres treaty in mind or beyond?

[Otto3]

russie signed it... that must be legal too i guess..?

[Armenian]

Armenian, when talking about Western Armenia, do you have the map of the Sevres treaty in mind or beyond?

That would be ideal for me. However, I realize that things don't always work out the way you would like it to work out. I just want Armenia to be able to have direct access to the Black Sea and include the regions of Van, Erzerum and Nakhijevan. We must also not forget about Javakhk.

[Sip]

You as a 'Brit' should mind your own business, especially when your welcome is long expired. Don't preach to us about what we need to do. We don't need individuals like you giving us advice. If you dont like it, too bad. You and your "virtualani" needs to be show the door. Bye-bye :wave:

This quote brought to you courtesy of an apparent self proclaimed spokesman for EVERYONE. :laugh: Who is this "us" and "we" you are referring to?

[Sip]

All your insults aside, you seem to have entirely missed the point so I'll spell it out: I, as an Armenian, don't remember ever having given you permission to talk in my place. So your posts about what "we Armenians" want or need have absolutely no validity other than to express your personal view as an individual Armenian. That's of course assuming you want to start making some sense yourself before putting others down. ;)

[Armenian]

All your insults aside, you seem to have entirely missed the point so I'll spell it out: I, as an Armenian, don't remember ever having given you permission to talk in my place. So your posts about what "we Armenians" want or need have absolutely no validity other than to express your personal view as an individual Armenian. That's of course assuming you want to start making some sense yourself before putting others down. ;)

If you want the Catman to speak for you that's your problem. Besides, I have known you virtually for a long time now, to me, you are no Armenian - you are a turk :wave:

PS: If you don't want to get insulted by me then keep your worthless comments to yourself. :naughty:

[dani87]

This quote brought to you courtesy of an apparent self proclaimed spokesman for EVERYONE. :laugh: Who is this "us" and "we" you are referring to?

sip whats up with you.....i think armenian haven't done anything wrong but still you pick on him...

[Sip]

sip whats up with you.....i think armenian haven't done anything wrong but still you pick on him...


I guess in general, I just take issue with his tone that makes it seem like he is talking for all "Armenians" by saying "we" and "us" don't need this and that. He is certainly not talking for me in this specific case about bell-the-cat so that was the reason behind my reply in this thread. Although I don't agree with everything Bell says all the time, I actually think he has some valid points and does bring a fresh and different perspective sometimes that can be very valuable when the same ideas keep being inbred over and over among just Armenians ... and worst of all, the inbreeding of certain ideas are at times used to self-validate some very strong yet possibly wrong and dangerous notions over time!

And whether Armenian likes it or not, "stupid" Armenians like me, and even non Armenians, are just as entitled to having opinions as "smart Armenians" like him. That's all.

The rest of the insults and put downs are just entirely irrelevant IMO but they seem to be unavoidable when interacting with some people.

[Armenian]

russie signed it... that must be legal too i guess..?

It would be 'legal' if the land in question was 'Russia' :naughty:

[Otto3]

actually i dont know much about it...

[Otto3]

Hey Bell what are you doing in kars... research for invasion?... better come here in izmir and have a nice vacation

[Ari]

i wouldnt want a war even if it meant we get all our land back


xxxx we should be worrying about our country at the moment instead of the past


these threads should be taken off straight away

[aray]

i wouldnt want a war even if it meant we get all our land back


xxxx we should be worrying about our country at the moment instead of the past


these threads should be taken off straight away

Because of attitude like this we have this conversation today and could take care of the issue 90 years ago. Where would be Arcakh if we had many of your kind?

[Armenian]

Because of attitude like this we have this conversation today and could take care of the issue 90 years ago.

When I first posted this thread I knew for sure that it would draw out the "lets all hug each other and live in peace" freaks.

The type represented by this Ari as well as Sip, tunot, winoman and the occasional non-Armenian like Catman who wants to tell us what to do, have always been the ones who have held us back in the past. And this type in question will be a serious obstacle for us in the future. None of them understand what we are discussing anyway, they just have this warped dream that if we simply roll over and play dead the world will be a much better place to live in.

In the up-coming war to liberate western Armenia these people will only be useful for mine clearing operations :naughty:

Where would be Arcakh if we had many of your kind?

I vividly remeber the years 1989-1991 when Ramkavars, Polsahais, Amerikahais, etc, were attacking Dashnaktsakans for sending money, volunteers and suppies to our azatamardiks in Artsakh. I recall a filthy Polsahai from New York once telling me - "you people (The ARF) casued the Armenian Genocide in 1915 now you are trying to cause another one."

I was like :mad:

And a well educated 20 something Amerikahai was once yelling at me with tears in his eyes that enough Armenians had died throughout history and that we don't need another war. I told him - DUDE, we did not start the war, they are depopulating Armenian villages, they are killing Armenian civilians, we have to fight back!

He said something to the effect of - "killing begets killing."

I was like :confused:

I have now come to the wise conclusion that there is no point in discussing anything with these types. We Armenians simply need to learn how to ignore these low-lives in our communities and continue doing what is best for the future of our nation.

When I come across these types of so-called Armenians now -

I'm like :laugh: :wave:

[HayotzAmrotz]

i wouldnt want a war even if it meant we get all our land back


xxxx we should be worrying about our country at the moment instead of the past


these threads should be taken off straight away


You are avstraliatsi who was brought up in a typical polsahai haka-hairenaser household, so dont call yourself Hay, you are not Hay, neither to me nor to many other Hays. SO MANY of them that once you realize HOW many you will be shocked! :eek:

If under “our country” you mean the Republic of Armenia then forget about it! It is not your country, mate and you are not welcome in Hayastan. In fact, I’m so disgusted with your overall haka-hay attitude, your suggestion to take off these threads “straight away” that I’m completely seriously suggesting you to stay away from the Republic of Armenia as far as you can because God may save the Queen but NOTHING and NO ONE will save your sorry arse once it lands in Hayastan. :naughty:

[TomServo]

Hey Bell what are you doing in kars... research for invasion?... better come here in izmir and have a nice vacation
Very poetic. I'm sure Bell will love it.

[dani87]

I guess in general, I just take issue with his tone that makes it seem like he is talking for all "Armenians" by saying "we" and "us" don't need this and that. He is certainly not talking for me in this specific case about bell-the-cat so that was the reason behind my reply in this thread. Although I don't agree with everything Bell says all the time, I actually think he has some valid points and does bring a fresh and different perspective sometimes that can be very valuable when the same ideas keep being inbred over and over among just Armenians ... and worst of all, the inbreeding of certain ideas are at times used to self-validate some very strong yet possibly wrong and dangerous notions over time!

And whether Armenian likes it or not, "stupid" Armenians like me, and even non Armenians, are just as entitled to having opinions as "smart Armenians" like him. That's all.

The rest of the insults and put downs are just entirely irrelevant IMO but they seem to be unavoidable when interacting with some people.

i'm just sorry that instead of fighting againt our real enemy we fight internal....for me armenian and the likes of him are real patriots

[Otto3]

you need brakes as well as a gas pedal if you want to reach your destination safe and sound...

ottoficious


dont take this as an internal fight...instead think it is like 2 parts of one consciousness... we all see what happens when one side goes silent...

[skhara]

I vividly remeber the years 1989-1991 when Ramkavars, Polsahais, Amerikahais, etc, were attacking Dashnaktsakans for sending money, volunteers and suppies to our azatamardiks in Artsakh. I recall a filthy Polsahai from New York once telling me - "you people (The ARF) casued the Armenian Genocide in 1915 now you are trying to cause another one."

I was like :mad:

And a well educated 20 something Amerikahai was once yelling at me with tears in his eyes that enough Armenians had died throughout history and that we don't need another war. I told him - DUDE, we did not start the war, they are depopulating Armenian villages, they are killing Armenian civilians, we have to fight back!

He said something to the effect of - "killing begets killing."

I was like :confused:

I have now come to the wise conclusion that there is no point in discussing anything with these types. We Armenians simply need to learn how to ignore these low-lives in our communities and continue doing what is best for the future of our nation.

When I come across these types of so-called Armenians now -

I'm like :laugh: :wave:

It is interesting then the obvious gap in mentalities. I quite vividly remember when all this was going on in 88 and 89. My own family essentially became refugees, but I remember my father having this discussion of the upcomming war, there was no worry at all that Armenians would win in any one on one battle with Azeris. He was mostly worried about Iranian and Turkish involvement. This I remember to be the attitude my uncles and grandad had as well.

[Anonymouse]

It gets really hard deleting posts that deviate from the issue and focus on insulting one another especially since some of us have school or work and cannot be in front of this all day. I know discussions can get very personal because ultimately it comes down to our beliefs and alot of the topics are important and personal and everyone wants to make the best of it and I am sure everyone has the best intentions, but there must be more content than insult.

Even if you reply to someone in a vindictive manner or somewhat condescending, but at the same time still try to make your argument and create and keep content to be 70% of your reply, I and other moderators have been very liberal in letting the things flow. Just continuous insults only ruin the value, candor and appeal of the thread. Instead of the argument and the issues taking up the majority of the posts, people become the issues.

UPDATE: The thread has been significantly cleaned up. I don't think I missed anything, unless I'm wrong. However, please post in a cordial fashion. If you disagree fine, make it known, yell to the world you disagree and you think the other side is wrong. However, to go beyond that, and I am not even talking about insults, and make actual threats and intimidation, that is taken seriously and you will be banned for that.

[melikianAvak]

Thank God we still have men like the Armenian, I hope he is having many sons.

Yeghbayr Armenian

Thank you for the posts about western Armenia, and what we can become.
I and many other Hay men and women support your words. I thought they were very positive and think that any true Hay Nationalist would agree.

I have lived for many years and have come to the conclusion that a strong and larger Armenia and a much larger population in Hayastan is the best chance of Armenians surviving. I think a one world government is a bad idea.

I am glad that some of the people who feel so differently are not my children.
You have my support. If we Hay's don't stand together as one we may perish.


God Bless

Avak Melikian

[D3ADSY]

Being nationalistic and patriotic and waving the Armenian tricolour is great and all, but where is the realistic outlook, the the kind of concerned thought that comes with genuinely caring for something, whether people or a country?
I will just put things bluntly, since arguments seem to flare easily and get nowhere fast on the interwebs.
Armenian Armed Forces do not come close to matching, let alone surpassing, Turkish Armed Forces on the ground, in the air or at sea (non-existant). The fight over Nagorno-Karabakh in comparison was between two more or less evenly matched sides who used the same equipment.
Ofcourse it does not all come down to military might, but in this case I don't see any other alternative and I think when you speak of "liberation" you do not mean by round table talks and diplomatic handshaking. I really don't want to drag this out, the Turkish Air Force is one of the oldest in the world, with nealy 100 years of history behind it, and close to 300 F-16s alone. You can count what the Armenian air force has on one hand. How can you launch an offensive against someone who has complete air superiority, and vastly superior numbers on the ground, on his own ground.
Instead of talking about some false hope that somewhere down the track, somehow, Armenia's military will transform into something that can match that of Turkey's perhaps there should be more realistic approaches to the issue.
The very fact that you state such a thing as "may or may not happen within our lifetime", talk of nuclear bombs and ill informed statements like "Turkish military hardware is not modern, its about 20-30 years old" underline how delusional and dangerous this whole thing is. But ofcourse, I and others like me, are the problem, the ones who are holding back Armenia! Yet it is your delusions of grandeur that will cause a repeat of history, not mine. Speaking of history, isn't it about time we learned from it?
Armenia is surrounded by hostile and semi-hostile nations, we have no direct link with Russia and Iran is hardly a true ally the last thing we need are suicidal dreams.

[ARTAK]

Miayn Zenqov Ka Hayin Prkutiun!!!

[ARTAK]

Ari, check out this link there is a message for you, mate.

http://forum.armenianclub.com/showthread.php?t=6702&page=3

[Armenian]

Thank God we still have men like the Armenian, I hope he is having many sons.

Yeghbayr Armenian

Thank you for the posts about western Armenia, and what we can become.
I and many other Hay men and women support your words. I thought they were very positive and think that any true Hay Nationalist would agree.

I have lived for many years and have come to the conclusion that a strong and larger Armenia and a much larger population in Hayastan is the best chance of Armenians surviving. I think a one world government is a bad idea.

I am glad that some of the people who feel so differently are not my children.
You have my support. If we Hay's don't stand together as one we may perish.


God Bless

Avak Melikian

Noren shnorhakalutyun enker. Its good to hear from again.

[Artsakh]

Being nationalistic and patriotic and waving the Armenian tricolour is great and all

Moreover, it is also an essential ingredient in the preservation of our national and cultural values in the face of a loosing war against assimilation.


Armenian Armed Forces do not come close to matching, let alone surpassing, Turkish Armed Forces on the ground, in the air or at sea (non-existant).

Such factors as superiority in numbers and arms do not automatically translate into military success and I think you've got much research to do before you present yourself as being some military analyst.

The fight over Nagorno-Karabakh in comparison was between two more or less evenly matched sides who used the same equipment.

The fight for the liberation of Mountainous Artsakh was hardly "between two more or less evenly matched sides." The Artsakhsis hardly had the numberical advantage over the Azeris, and for the most part they fought with what they captured from the enemy.

The Armenians did NOT have planes or an air force, the Azeris did. Moreover, the Azerbaijanis had hired thousands of Mujahadeen, Chechen, Russian and Ukranian merceneries.... while the Armenians had barely enough money for bread. The situation was A LOT more despair in Armenia than Azerbaijan. Moreover, the Azeris were advized by NATO Turkish Generals on military tactics and supplied NATO arms to Azerbaijan for use against Armenians.

There, the Armenians were overwhelming outnumbered, outgunned and only a braindead baffoon would see this brilliant, glourious victory as an "even match".


Ofcourse it does not all come down to military might, but in this case I don't see any other alternative and I think when you speak of "liberation" you do not mean by round table talks and diplomatic handshaking. I really don't want to drag this out, the Turkish Air Force is one of the oldest in the world, with nealy 100 years of history behind it, and close to 300 F-16s alone.

At the present time noone in Armenia is preparing for an invasion of Turkey. We are speaking of our long-term, strategic goals. Geopolitics change all the time. Who knows, one day the Americans may just need to use our territory to attack turkey. It wasn't too long ago when the US was "chums" with Iran.

You can count what the Armenian air force has on one hand.

what type of a mutated freak are you? how many fingers have you got?

How can you launch an offensive against someone who has complete air superiority, and vastly superior numbers on the ground, on his own ground.
Instead of talking about some false hope that somewhere down the track, somehow, Armenia's military will transform into something that can match that of Turkey's perhaps there should be more realistic approaches to the issue.

During the first republic, in the immediate aftermath of the genocide, the republic, drained of all resources, was able to push into turkey and liberate kars and ardahan and nakhijevan and expand the boundries of the first armenian republic that was drawn up by the treaty of batum that made armenia 4500 sq miles. if we could do that then, we can do it again. If our people could throw out the all might red army from our soil under Garegin Njdeh and establish an independent lerna hayastan--we can do it again. Armenians have a glorious record as brilliant fighters and fierce warriors.Turks, on the other hand, have a record for annihilating their own civilian, unarmed population. Back then it was the Armenian, greek, and assyrian citizens of the ottomoan empire. Today, it is the kurdish citizens of Turkey.



Moreover, you are assuming that the only way to liberation of our lands is only between a war strictly b/w armenia and turkey. forgetting geopolitics? forgetting sponsorship of great powers?

Armenia is surrounded by hostile and semi-hostile nations, we have no direct link with Russia and Iran is hardly a true ally the last thing we need are suicidal dreams.

precisely, and that is why we have and must maintain the strongest army in the caucasus region. As for iran, they are the closest ethnic relatives of Armenians and the best friend and neighbor we have.

[Armenian]

Thank you enker Artsakh.

I had stopped reading that annoying person's comments. Most probably he is a "Polsahai" who has been watching a lot of Rambo films and reading GI Joe magazines. So now he wants to show us how much of a military expert he has become.

Please ignore him from now on, when you reply to him its like hitting a wasps nest.

[Artsakh]

Our military analyst also seems to forget that in the spring of 1991, the leaders of the Azerbaijani regime, ONLY and ONLY with the assistance of the Soviet Army, was able to organize the depopulation of the Armenian regions of Northern Artsakh and the deportation of the Armenian population of Nagorny Karabakh and the surrounding regions.

Our friend is also forgetting the fact that despite our small numbers, we only lost 6 to 7 thousand soldiers, while Azerbaijanis lost 24-29 thousand soldiers despite their overwhelming superiority in numbers, arms, ground troops, and air and sea forces (non existant in Armenia at the time).

The majority of political and military analysts (Non-Armenian) agree and have written in their accounts that this was a major upset victory against all odds.

But your right, such simpletons who come forth with such absurd assertions are not worthy of a response.

[bell-the-cat]

the last thing we need are suicidal dreams.

Though if those who have these suicidal dreams would just avail themselves of the suicide route to a happier live, then it would be better for the sane amongst us. ;)

[arabico]

just a question. who did russia support in the war between armenina and azerbeijan?

[karoaper]

just a question. who did russia support in the war between armenina and azerbeijan?

In the beginning, they supported Azerbaijan, only because Moscow was scared of breakdown of administrative borders and setups put in place during Soviet times. From their point of view, maintaining the status-quo helped maintain their control in the region. Later on, Russia fully reasserted herself as Armenia's ally. And it's payed off, since Armenia is the only pro-Russian republilc in the Caucusus.

[Artsakh]

In the beginning, they supported Azerbaijan, only because Moscow was scared of breakdown of administrative borders and setups put in place during Soviet times. From their point of view, maintaining the status-quo helped maintain their control in the region. Later on, Russia fully reasserted herself as Armenia's ally. And it's payed off, since Armenia is the only pro-Russian republilc in the Caucusus.

The Russians NEVER fully backed either the Armenians nor Azeris. They used both sides against the other. Moreover, DO NOT be fooled by the propoganda the Azeris spread of "1 billion dollars of Russian arms to Armenia." These arms were delivered to Armenia AFTER the ceasefire, and therefore played NO FACTOR WHATSOEVER IN THE OUTCOME OF THE WAR.

[zinedeniz]

"Armenian" and his lameass articles. Usual crap. Well... One can dream I guess.

[Sip]

"Armenian" and his lameass articles. Usual crap. Well... One can dream I guess.

Crap is something that you want to get rid of. Horrible crap is something you want to get rid of but can't. Guess which category you belong to.

[zinedeniz]

Crap is something that you want to get rid of. Horrible crap is something you want to get rid of but can't. Guess which category you belong to.
Sus.

[karoaper]

The Russians NEVER fully backed either the Armenians nor Azeris. They used both sides against the other. Moreover, DO NOT be fooled by the propoganda the Azeris spread of "1 billion dollars of Russian arms to Armenia." These arms were delivered to Armenia AFTER the ceasefire, and therefore played NO FACTOR WHATSOEVER IN THE OUTCOME OF THE WAR.

There are more ways of giving support than weapons. One of the reasons why Azeris aren't so crazy about the idea of starting a conflict now is that Russia this time supports Armenia. In the beginning for Moscow it wasn't about using both sides against each other, since there was nothing to be gained there. It was about keeping the lid on the Gharabagh issue for dying hopes of still controlling the area, making formation of new governments and nations harmful to thise hopes.

Also, last time I checked this was an Armenian forum, who here is going to know much less be fooled by Azeri propoganda.

[karoaper]

If we're going to ban Armenian members for first time offense, please don't let our eyes water from smelling this horrible xxxx.

[Artsakh]

There are more ways of giving support than weapons. One of the reasons why Azeris aren't so crazy about the idea of starting a conflict now is that Russia this time supports Armenia.

I think the Armenian army has somthing to do with it also. But in all respects, Russia maybe a strategic ally and parther of Armenia, it is nonetheless pursuing its own national interests. If Russia really wanted to help Armenia, it would blockade Azerbaijan like its doing to Georgia now and like Azerbaijans ally Turkey is doing to Armenia. Turkey gives azerbaijan unconditional backing-in words and deeds and makes no effort to hide it. There is no power that has pledged unconditional support for Armenia, like the US to Israel currently.



In the beginning for Moscow it wasn't about using both sides against each other, since there was nothing to be gained there.

Yes, it was. And during some of the most toughest fights, we were not fighting Azeris, but Russians. Whenever the balanced was in favor of 1 side, the Russians supported the other.


Also, last time I checked this was an Armenian forum, who here is going to know much less be fooled by Azeri propoganda.

well if u are not aware of azebaijani propoganda i'd suggest you get a little more involved in political awareness b/c the enemy is at work and if you're not doing anything, then you are not helping.

[D3ADSY]

Such factors as superiority in numbers and arms do not automatically translate into military success and I think you've got much research to do before you present yourself as being some military analyst.

In terms of what we are talking about here the numbers on each side and their equipment play a vital role.

The fight for the liberation of Mountainous Artsakh was hardly "between two more or less evenly matched sides." The Artsakhsis hardly had the numberical advantage over the Azeris, and for the most part they fought with what they captured from the enemy.

Yes, and the billion dollar shipments of military aid had no impact. And please do not argue this never happened, it is the very thing you would spurt out when trying to argue Armenians and Russians are best mates.

The Armenians did NOT have planes or an air force, the Azeris did. Moreover, the Azerbaijanis had hired thousands of Mujahadeen, Chechen, Russian and Ukranian merceneries.... while the Armenians had barely enough money for bread. The situation was A LOT more despair in Armenia than Azerbaijan. Moreover, the Azeris were advized by NATO Turkish Generals on military tactics and supplied NATO arms to Azerbaijan for use against Armenians.

There, the Armenians were overwhelming outnumbered, outgunned and only a braindead baffoon would see this brilliant, glourious victory as an "even match".

If they didn't have an air force how the hell did they fight an air war over NK?
I don't recall saying anything about it not being a glorious victory.

At the present time noone in Armenia is preparing for an invasion of Turkey. We are speaking of our long-term, strategic goals. Geopolitics change all the time. Who knows, one day the Americans may just need to use our territory to attack turkey. It wasn't too long ago when the US was "chums" with Iran.

Yeah, who knows... Maybe we will see Nato fight Nato! :rolleyes:

what type of a mutated freak are you? how many fingers have you got?

15 Su-25
1 Mig-25
12 operational Mi-24s (out of around 30)

Yeah, I'd say my figurative way of speaking was close enough.

Moreover, you are assuming that the only way to liberation of our lands is only between a war strictly b/w armenia and turkey. forgetting geopolitics? forgetting sponsorship of great powers?.

Ah yes, as always your kind relies on the "great powers".
You will never learn.
Do yo have dreams of a neo-Byzantium? Ask a Greek or Serb or Russian what they think of Armenians. You'll get a reply that they don't think at all, at best.

precisely, and that is why we have and must maintain the strongest army in the caucasus region. As for iran, they are the closest ethnic relatives of Armenians and the best friend and neighbor we have.

You should maintain the strongest army, but don't isolate yourself from those directly around you while dancing to the tune of a "great power" who you have no direct link to, from who for a number of reasons you are becoming more and more isolated. One day people wake up and they realise they are alone. If only we had some of the balls Georgia seems to have. I'd also say that ethnically we have much in common with the people we live amongst in the caucasus, we're all "cherniy kavkazskii" aren't we? :laugh:

Though if those who have these suicidal dreams would just avail themselves of the suicide route to a happier live, then it would be better for the sane amongst us. ;)

Don't you get it man? We are not sane. It is they who believe Armenia will reconquer it's historical lands and form a Greater Armenia, who are sane. Somehow they believe they have everything behind them, to back these delusional rants, even history which to most realistic people actually leans more towards proving how absurd this all is!

Thank you enker Artsakh.

I had stopped reading that annoying person's comments. Most probably he is a "Polsahai" who has been watching a lot of Rambo films and reading GI Joe magazines. So now he wants to show us how much of a military expert he has become.

Please ignore him from now on, when you reply to him its like hitting a wasps nest.

You're all talk. Empty, dangerous drivel. And when someone talks back, you resort to ad hominems. You couldn't reply when I countered your utterly stupid claims of Iran destroying US Fleets in the Persian Gulf with Sunburn missiles and you can't reply now. Instead you'll just keep talking from your pulpit and exchanging :cheers: emoticons with those that agree and ignoring anyone who opposes you, much like the politician who will give his speech and then not have time for questions.
For all your talk if Azeri forces crossed into NKR lines tomorrow you'd still be posting, carrying on your patriotic fight on the forums of the internet, because you're too busy to do anything else, because you have a business or some other excuse to take care of that is stopping you from boarding that plane bound for Armenia.

[Artsakh]

Yes, and the billion dollar shipments of military aid had no impact. And please do not argue this never happened, it is the very thing you would spurt out when trying to argue Armenians and Russians are best mates.

The billion dollar shipments of arms to Armenia had no impact on the outcome of the war because they were transferred to armenia AFTER the ceasefire agreement was signed.

These weapons were NOT used against Azerbaijanis, but NATO arms supplied to Azerbaijan DURING the war WERE used against Armenians.

You are making a complete fool out of yourself. So why don't you go read some books on the subject and then come back to debate what happened and what didn't happen.

[Artsakh]

If they didn't have an air force how the hell did they fight an air war over NK?
I don't recall saying anything about it not being a glorious victory.



OMG! ok, now you're just being ridiculous and making up things. Armenians did NOT wage an air war over NK. Armenians fought strictly a ground warfare. Total air supremacy rested in Azeri hands.

[Artsakh]

Yeah, who knows... Maybe we will see Nato fight Nato! :rolleyes:


Ya, seriously. I mean could you ever imagine 2 lovebirds like the NATO Greeks and Turks ever going at it?

That is as unheard of as UN country fighting a UN country.

I mean all the regular violations of air space and soverign waters in the agean by both parties are only a manifestation of love for one another, such love is also expressed by dividing Greek Cyprus.:rolleyes:

[Artsakh]

15 Su-25
1 Mig-25
12 operational Mi-24s (out of around 30)

Yeah, I'd say my figurative way of speaking was close enough.



Forgetting the MiG 29's aren't we?

This year alone 10 fighter jets were purchased from Slovakia.

And by no means am I going to claim that Armenia has the most advanced or modern air force. However, it is a competent force and is capable of getting the job done.

But everyone knows that Armenians are ground and mountain fighters, so we don't really care for an air force. Our howittzers will shoot down all tresspassing jets.

Air force is for cowards who drop bombs.

The Armenian military has been judged by various military analysts as being a capable and competent force efficient enough to repbel an attack from Azerbaijan, Turkey, or both at the same time.

[Artsakh]

Ah yes, as always your kind relies on the "great powers".
You will never learn.
Do yo have dreams of a neo-Byzantium? Ask a Greek or Serb or Russian what they think of Armenians. You'll get a reply that they don't think at all, at best.


Genious, look at history. How many times has the Russian army entered Turkey? Syrians have aspirations of a greater syria which includes land in modern turkey. Greeks have their demands. Then there's the internal issue of Kurds within Turkey. Kurds in North Iraq may even get there own state. If you can't see it, that this isn't strictly an armenian-turkish issue, then you must have a small mind. Even if the Armenians give up their demands, THE GREEKS WILL NEVER GIVE UP THEIRS, THE SYRIANS WILL NEVER GIVE UP THEIRS, THE KURDS WILL NEVER GIVE UP THEIRS.

As far as the Byzanties go, I think they got their response and are still reeping the consqences after they disbanded the Armenians as a result of which the conquering Turks brought down the entire byzantine empire.

[Artsakh]

You should maintain the strongest army, but don't isolate yourself from those directly around you while dancing to the tune of a "great power" who you have no direct link to, from who for a number of reasons you are becoming more and more isolated. One day people wake up and they realise they are alone. If only we had some of the balls Georgia seems to have. I'd also say that ethnically we have much in common with the people we live amongst in the caucasus, we're all "cherniy kavkazskii" aren't we? :laugh:

What do you suggest we do? Armenia has and continues to insist on the establishment of direct relations with Turkey and open borders. The response of Turkey?- FORGET THE GENOCIDE, EVACUATE LANDS YOU LIBERATED AT THE COST OF BLOOD.

the simple fact of the matter is that armenia will not fuction as a viable state without karabakh and without it may loose its very statehood.
And to forget the genocide, that would mean to be at risk of another genocide.

armenia DIDN"T blockade turkey.

our only problem in the region is Turkic, we have excellent relations with the rest.

[Artsakh]

For all your talk if Azeri forces crossed into NKR lines tomorrow you'd still be posting, carrying on your patriotic fight on the forums of the internet, because you're too busy to do anything else, because you have a business or some other excuse to take care of that is stopping you from boarding that plane bound for Armenia.

I agree with the general point of this message: more armenians need to put their money where their mouth is. And if you can't help one way, you'd damn well better help another way.

If you aren't going to put your life on the line and fight, you should go visit Armenian and help the economy by spending dollars there, and not shedding blood on the battlefields.

However, Specifically "Armenian" is a very patriotic person who would run to the front lines if need be.

[D3ADSY]

OMG! ok, now you're just being ridiculous and making up things. Armenians did NOT wage an air war over NK. Armenians fought strictly a ground warfare. Total air supremacy rested in Azeri hands.

There was combat in the skies over NK, mainly helicopters and mainly Su-25s from newly formed Armenian and Azeri air forces, as well as Russian air lifts and resupplies to NK. Azeris had anything but total air supremacy. Armenian anti-air defences were far superior to Azeri air power and defences.

Forgetting the MiG 29's aren't we?

This year alone 10 fighter jets were purchased from Slovakia.

Armenia does not have a single Mig-29. Russian Air Force stationed in Armenia are exactly that, Russian. The 10 "fighter jets" purchased were Su-25s.

But everyone knows that Armenians are ground and mountain fighters, so we don't really care for an air force. Our howittzers will shoot down all tresspassing jets.

:laugh:

Beware the mighty Armenian howitzers and their AA capability!

Air force is for cowards who drop bombs.

:laugh:

Or it could be that air forces are for air superiority and winning wars. Who knows! :laugh:

The Armenian military has been judged by various military analysts as being a capable and competent force efficient enough to repbel an attack from Azerbaijan, Turkey, or both at the same time.

Oh so now we can fight a two-front war, against one enemy which is a regional power, and still come out on top! Wow! We might as well start expanding territory right now then, in all directions.

[Artsakh]

There was combat in the skies over NK, mainly helicopters and mainly Su-25s from newly formed Armenian and Azeri air forces, as well as Russian air lifts and resupplies to NK. Azeris had anything but total air supremacy. Armenian anti-air defences were far superior to Azeri air power and defences.

Dogfights do not take place between helicopters and jets.

Armenia does not have a single Mig-29. Russian Air Force stationed in Armenia are exactly that, Russian. The 10 "fighter jets" purchased were Su-25s.



KNOWN OPERATORS:

Algeria, Al Quwwat al Jawwawiya al Jaza'eriya (Algerian Air Force)
Angola, Força Aérea Popular de Angola (Angolan People's Air Force)
Armenia (Armenian Air Force)
Belarus, Voyenno Vozdushnyye Sily (Belarus Air Force)
Bulgaria, Bulgarski Voenno Vozdushni Sili (Bulgarian Air Defense Force Military Aviation)
Croatia, Hrvatske Zracne Snage (Croatian Air Force)

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/mig29/
:laugh:

Beware the mighty Armenian howitzers and their AA capability!

:laugh:

a dumb comment. Armenian howittzers have proven themselves as being effiecient instruments. What is so funny?

Or it could be that air forces are for air superiority and winning wars. Who knows! :laugh:

well, lets take the current conflict in lebanon into account. Obviously, the Israelis hardly were "capable of winning the war" with their air superiority. Destroying buildings, roads and bridges and killing civilians is hardly winning a war.


Oh so now we can fight a two-front war, against one enemy which is a regional power, and still come out on top! Wow! We might as well start expanding territory right now then, in all directions.

Our "border" with Turkey has always been a front. I didn't say Armenia has the resources to launch an invasion of turkey, but it in terms of defense, and not offense, Armenian forces are capable of getting the job done. Being able to defend yourself is one thing, and lauching an offense is another.

And, needless to say, we want what belongs to us, nothing more.

[D3ADSY]

Dogfights do not take place between helicopters and jets.

I said air war, not dogfights.

KNOWN OPERATORS:

Algeria, Al Quwwat al Jawwawiya al Jaza'eriya (Algerian Air Force)
Angola, Força Aérea Popular de Angola (Angolan People's Air Force)
Armenia (Armenian Air Force)
Belarus, Voyenno Vozdushnyye Sily (Belarus Air Force)
Bulgaria, Bulgarski Voenno Vozdushni Sili (Bulgarian Air Defense Force Military Aviation)
Croatia, Hrvatske Zracne Snage (Croatian Air Force)

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/mig29/
:laugh:

The only Mig-29's in Armenia are at the Russian 102nd base at Gyumri, there is not a single Mig-29 with an Armenian roundel, except in some people's heads.

a dumb comment. Armenian howittzers have proven themselves as being effiecient instruments. What is so funny?

Howitzers are field artillery. They fire up, at high angles, and deliver fire which arcs down at targets kilometres away. It is funny because someone who previously said "I think you've got much research to do before you present yourself as being some military analyst" is talking to me about howtizers shooting aircraft down.
It's downright hilarious.

well, lets take the current conflict in lebanon into account. Obviously, the Israelis hardly were "capable of winning the war" with their air superiority. Destroying buildings, roads and bridges and killing civilians is hardly winning a war.

Winning the war or not, this highlights how devastating air power is.
I never want to see Armenia suffer like Lebanon currently is and that is my whole basis for arguing what I am arguing.

Our "border" with Turkey has always been a front. I didn't say Armenia has the resources to launch an invasion of turkey, but it in terms of defense, and not offense, Armenian forces are capable of getting the job done. Being able to defend yourself is one thing, and lauching an offense is another.

Whilst we have, historically, been great at defending what we have, I don't think anyone really believes Armenia could repel a Turkish and Azeri attack at the same time.
However, the issue here, the original point of this thread, is not about defensive but offensive actions.

[Otto3]

d3adsy these guys are just saying that when a fight occurs between turkey and some other country(s) armenia must be ready for action while turkey is busy with the others... thats kinda realistic i think....

and artsakh without air support ground forces especially mechanized units will be in trouble so you must choose between being brave and dumb and being coward... and the guns that shoot down planes called flak guns or AA but AA missiles are better because others dont have much chance of shooting planes

[skhara]

and artsakh without air support ground forces especially mechanized units will be in trouble so you must choose between being brave and dumb

Air support is necessary in modern war in offensive operations.

[D3ADSY]

Otto3, I know what they are saying and I am simply saying I do not agree.

[Artsakh]

Howitzers are field artillery. They fire up, at high angles, and deliver fire which arcs down at targets kilometres away. It is funny because someone who previously said "I think you've got much research to do before you present yourself as being some military analyst" is talking to me about howtizers shooting aircraft down.
It's downright hilarious.

DOUGNUT, i know what howtizers are and what their function is, and have observed Armenian howitzers in action, so there's no need for you to teach me.

The point I was trying to make which your small mind wasn't able to grasp was that Armenians are primarily ground and mountain fighters, damn efficient ones too, and can make due without a modern, uptodate air force consiting of American and European planes.

The purpose of simple hand guns and Kalashnikovs isn't to bring down or go against tanks either. But our brave boys with just these were able to go face to face with tanks, capture it, and use it against the enemy themselves.

As a matter of fact, there is such a tank on Display as a trophy, if you ever go there 1 day.

[Artsakh]

The only Mig-29's in Armenia are at the Russian 102nd base at Gyumri, there is not a single Mig-29 with an Armenian roundel, except in some people's heads.

According to "Eksport Vooruzheniy" journal of Moscow, published in 1997, figures were shown that the Armenian armed forces had (back then) 5 Su 25's, one Mig 25, and 13 Mig 29's. THEN, it says "IN ADDITION" the 426th squadron of the Russian air force with 20 MiG 29's fighters stationed in Armenia.

There are many un-publicized figures of what armenia has and doesn't have. Armenia is bound by the CATE agreement, which places limits on the quanity of arms it posseses. But Karabakh is not bound by it. Therefore, armenia can simply transfer more and more arms into karabakh, and still not violate its quota on arms.

[Artsakh]

Winning the war or not, this highlights how devastating air power is.
I never want to see Armenia suffer like Lebanon currently is and that is my whole basis for arguing what I am arguing.

Ah, but to the contrary. It is whenever armenians have bowed their heads in obedience that we haced suffered FAR WORSE THAN "lebanon currently is".

History has shown that whenever we have stood up for ourselves, we have always won. Wheneven we have bowed our heads in allegiance, we have been raped, slaughtered, maimed, burnt, and nearly annihilated.

Need i remind you, it is turkey that is currently waging an act of war against armenia with its blockade. The turk will never change their ways, and you are naieve to think so otherwise.

[Artsakh]

Friday 4, August 2006

Another Azeri Soldier Killed Near Karabakh

AFP

An Azerbaijani soldier has been killed by fire from ethnic Armenian forces near the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region, the defense ministry in Baku said Friday.

The 20-year-old, Babek Mirzaliyev, died Thursday on the Azerbaijani side of a ceasefire line that has been in place since a temporary accord was reached between Baku and Yerevan over the disputed region in 1994.

Armenia and Azerbaijan fought a six-year war over the Armenian-majority enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh, which seceded from Soviet Azerbaijan in the late 1980s. The conflict claimed 25,000 lives and displaced hundreds of thousands of people, ending in the 1994 ceasefire.

Tensions have remained high and incidents occur regularly, with the Armenian controlled region's status still unresolved.

[Կարմիր Բ]

First we will kick the cancerous mafia, and not only, that is destroying our country like leaches, those who are responsible for the fact that Armenians are leaving our country en mass and those who are turning our women into prostitutes. Once we teach an unforgettable lesson to the internal enemies, we will do the rest.

[Siamanto]

When I first posted this thread I knew for sure that it would draw out the "lets all hug each other and live in peace" freaks.

The type represented by this Ari as well as Sip, tunot, winoman and the occasional non-Armenian like Catman who wants to tell us what to do, have always been the ones who have held us back in the past. And this type in question will be a serious obstacle for us in the future. None of them understand what we are discussing anyway, they just have this warped dream that if we simply roll over and play dead the world will be a much better place to live in.

In the up-coming war to liberate western Armenia these people will only be useful for mine clearing operations :naughty:



I vividly remeber the years 1989-1991 when Ramkavars, Polsahais, Amerikahais, etc, were attacking Dashnaktsakans for sending money, volunteers and suppies to our azatamardiks in Artsakh. I recall a filthy Polsahai from New York once telling me - "you people (The ARF) casued the Armenian Genocide in 1915 now you are trying to cause another one."

I was like :mad:

And a well educated 20 something Amerikahai was once yelling at me with tears in his eyes that enough Armenians had died throughout history and that we don't need another war. I told him - DUDE, we did not start the war, they are depopulating Armenian villages, they are killing Armenian civilians, we have to fight back!

He said something to the effect of - "killing begets killing."

I was like :confused:

I have now come to the wise conclusion that there is no point in discussing anything with these types. We Armenians simply need to learn how to ignore these low-lives in our communities and continue doing what is best for the future of our nation.

When I come across these types of so-called Armenians now -

I'm like :laugh: :wave:

I understand your criticism of some members of this forum and how detrimental can be - and has been - their "agenda" to the interests of Armenians; however, I would distinguish their continuous and consistent struggle - during the last 8+ years on several Armenian and *urkish forums - to intentionally obstruct and weaken the legitimate fight for our ancestral rights,
from the often genuinely sincere concerns or fears expressed by politically unaware and "simplistic" members of the Armenian Community.

Also, I'm not affiliated to any political organization, but I would like to remind - for the record - that the ARF does not have the monopoly of Hay Tad - and I'm aware that you did not say it. Furthermore, I regret to say that during many decades the ARF overtly opposed - and threatened in some cases - Armenian individuals, organizations and activities - political or militaristic such as the ASALA - that aimed at reviving the Hay Tad. Personally, I believe that those individuals, organizations and activities had a catalytic role and gave a new life to the Hay Tad. It's only just and fair to recognize it.



Note: I have chosen to auto censor the words "*urk," "*urkish" or *urkic" because it is commonly perceived as unpleasant and offending, evokes unpleasant emotions and imagery and is pregnant with immoral and evil connotations!

[KotayKoskesh]

just leave it like it is. we are all happy and live good lives why bother with the turks ?

[alby]

My observation as an Armenian regarding this issue:
Back in 1915 when the genocide took place, the population of Turkey was 12 to 14 million of which less than 2 million were Armenians (15%). Now, more than 90 years later the population of Turkey is about 60 million and Armenia about 2 million (0.3%), by the time the day comes that we liberate the lands that everyone in the region wants to own (including 30 million Kurds) the population of all will increase while the Armenian population will most probably at most stay the same!
Now how can we expect to liberate any land with figures like that? And even if and when that happens, who would go to live there. Look at Karabakh now, after sacrificing thousands of lives to liberate it, now nobody wants to settle there and make it better, not even the natives of the area.
I am sorry to sound so negative but I don’t want to dream a fantasy. I think we as Armenians would be better off to create a solid country first, without corruption and crime, but with patriotism and nationalism, industrialization, human rights, education and so on. Then and only then the world would really take us seriously and respect us and our demands.
Again, without offending anyone’s beliefs and dreams I must say that this is my personal opinion and I could be wrong but that’s what I think.

http://armenianpages.com

[Londoner]

it's funny dream. why?

1- 3 million populated Armenia against 75 million (except 14 million Kurds)????? Hell yeah!
2- unmodernized Armenian army with former soviet tools such rotten antonovs and 1950's tools against well modernized (by israel, france, germany, usa and more) military dictatorship???
3- We (kurds) never accept such a thing. Van belongs to us!
4- Dream on. That's it. I'm brave to discuss, ban me if you want but atleast i'm honest

[gmd]

My observation as an Armenian regarding this issue:
Back in 1915 when the genocide took place, the population of Turkey was 12 to 14 million of which less than 2 million were Armenians (15%). Now, more than 90 years later the population of Turkey is about 60 million and Armenia about 2 million (0.3%), by the time the day comes that we liberate the lands that everyone in the region wants to own (including 30 million Kurds) the population of all will increase while the Armenian population will most probably at most stay the same!
Now how can we expect to liberate any land with figures like that? And even if and when that happens, who would go to live there. Look at Karabakh now, after sacrificing thousands of lives to liberate it, now nobody wants to settle there and make it better, not even the natives of the area.
I am sorry to sound so negative but I don’t want to dream a fantasy. I think we as Armenians would be better off to create a solid country first, without corruption and crime, but with patriotism and nationalism, industrialization, human rights, education and so on. Then and only then the world would really take us seriously and respect us and our demands.
Again, without offending anyone’s beliefs and dreams I must say that this is my personal opinion and I could be wrong but that’s what I think.

http://armenianpages.com

I disagree with you for a different reason. Regardless of Armenia's current population the considerations for reclaiming lost Armenian lands are different. The policies of Armenia's neighbors are hostile to the survival of Armenia. The only exception may be Iran due to its own political/economic needs. If Armenia and Armenians are to prosper then at some point a strategy needs to be devised that is aimed at changing the political atmosphere of Armenia's neighborhood. Some may want to be positive and say this can be done through a policy of reconciliation. However, this is not realistic. Strength and conflict are the norm for human relations and history. As long as Armenia remains a landlocked small nation with space to defend itself then it will always be a pawn. It will take time, unity, and resolve to change this. The disadvantage for Armenia currently is its own internal politics, corruption, and a reliance on military hardware and doctrine that do not work for a small nation. Being small it needs to look at developing a military industry geared towards technology and superior firepower. If you look at Armenians as a people you will see that we are not all good business men. Many are talented and excel the world over in technology, engineering and science. By building a strong military industrial capacity you improve your economy and become a political force to be reckoned with. At the same time Armenia needs to strengthen its intelligence/espionage ability and make every effort to destabilize those nations who have and continue to harm her interests. Armenia will achieve true freedom when it has finally retaken at the very least lands stretching to the western mountains of Kars and north to the Black Sea. This will provide economic freedom and a minimum strategic space for effective defense of Armenia. This is a realistic and necessary goal that Armenians need to realize and it is far more realistic then lets make friends with the Azeris and Turks so we can all join the EU and live happily ever after. No disrespect intended but I think that is unrealistic and dangerous to the survival or Armenian culture.

[Ari]

ohhh ohhh so much time wasted on this thread

its hilarious

[Armenian]

I disagree with you for a different reason. Regardless of Armenia's current population the considerations for reclaiming lost Armenian lands are different. The policies of Armenia's neighbors are hostile to the survival of Armenia. The only exception may be Iran due to its own political/economic needs. If Armenia and Armenians are to prosper then at some point a strategy needs to be devised that is aimed at changing the political atmosphere of Armenia's neighborhood. Some may want to be positive and say this can be done through a policy of reconciliation. However, this is not realistic. Strength and conflict are the norm for human relations and history. As long as Armenia remains a landlocked small nation with space to defend itself then it will always be a pawn. It will take time, unity, and resolve to change this. The disadvantage for Armenia currently is its own internal politics, corruption, and a reliance on military hardware and doctrine that do not work for a small nation. Being small it needs to look at developing a military industry geared towards technology and superior firepower. If you look at Armenians as a people you will see that we are not all good business men. Many are talented and excel the world over in technology, engineering and science. By building a strong military industrial capacity you improve your economy and become a political force to be reckoned with. At the same time Armenia needs to strengthen its intelligence/espionage ability and make every effort to destabilize those nations who have and continue to harm her interests. Armenia will achieve true freedom when it has finally retaken at the very least lands stretching to the western mountains of Kars and north to the Black Sea. This will provide economic freedom and a minimum strategic space for effective defense of Armenia. This is a realistic and necessary goal that Armenians need to realize and it is far more realistic then lets make friends with the Azeris and Turks so we can all join the EU and live happily ever after. No disrespect intended but I think that is unrealistic and dangerous to the survival or Armenian culture.

Excellent commentary, @nker. As long as Armenia remains insignificant - tiny and landlocked - Armenia will be always be a nation asking major powers for hand-outs and mercy. As a result, Armenia will always be vulnerable and unstable. I am not advocating 'war' with anyone, however, we Armenians need to think in the long-term. We need to set the foundations of a more powerful nation. And we need to realize that if we want to be taken seriously by the powers that be, we need to show them that we as a nation impact regional poitics and economy. With this context, many within our community will be our worst obstacles, not the Turks.

[skhara]

WMD program I say!

[Armenian]

WMD program I say!

I agree. We have the capability - the technology, the experts, the power plant, the nuclear fuel, etc. We seriously need to think about producing such types of weapons in the long-term. I don't think our nation is ready for it just yet. You first need a stable political environment, economic stability and a stable social climate before you pursue such an agenda. Also, Yerevan has to convince Tehran and Moscow that a nuclear armed Armenia is in their interests as well. Without Russian or Iranian approval Yerevan won't be able to do this.

[Selpak]

So she won't. Because it leads to nuclear armed turkey and azerbeycan which is not liked by the countries you named. Being land located country is not excuse for low exports. Armenia can not compate on heavy industry. And she is not best place for banking, tourism etc. I think Armenian should focus on high added value goods.

[skhara]

Without Russian or Iranian approval Yerevan won't be able to do this.

Well then it would never happen, because such power would realease Armenia from a position of having to appease these powers to a position of Armenia showing them her teeth when she is upset.

They would never see that as part of their interests.

Have an agenda of massive amounts of dirty bombs and then blackmail them.
I am really thinking that the nastier we can be, the better off we will be.

[Armenian]

Well then it would never happen, because such power would realease Armenia from a position of having to appease these powers to a position of Armenia showing them her teeth when she is upset.

Correct. This is the fundamental problem we face as a nation. Russia, and I would also suspect Iran, would like to see Armenia dependent on it for survival.

They would never see that as part of their interests.

Well, that we don't know. Anything can happen in the future. It is up to Yerevan to lay the ground work for it. I personally won't be surprised if it was revealed that Armenia possessed a 'tactical' nuclear weapon. There was serious talk about this in the mid 90s.

I am really thinking that the nastier we can be, the better off we will be.

Sadly, that is the very nature of politics. And don't forget, most of the Western nations today that have high standards of living and relatively low corruption started off very nasty, very unethical and very corrupt.

We need 'corrupt' Armenian politicians with 'deep roots' in Armenia, those who want to protect their aquired wealth and real estate within the country and not elsewhere.

[Armenian]

A prosperous Armenia is not within the long term interest of the Turkish nation - simply because we Armenians want lands and reparations. No self-respecting Turk is going to give away strategic lands to us Armenians. Trust me on that. Moreover, the Turks will not give us reparations because it would ruin their already small bank accounts. Moreover, giving us lands or reparations is a Pandora's box for them. Once they do it for us, it will be Assyrians, Kurds and Greeks, Cypriots lining up.

However, the biggest fear Armenian nationalists have is the massive economic and demographic size of Turkey. Theoretically, if the Republic of Armenia engages in open trade, and all is civil between us and the Turks, there is a great danger that the Republic of Armenia, as small and as isolated as it is, will become desperately dependent on Turkey for survival. This is the biggest long term fear that Armenia has with regards to open trade with Turkey.

I personally feel that we can not have official relations with Turkey as long as we have national demands. And, as far as I am concerned, the Armenian diaspora has demands and, as a matter of fact, the Armenian Republic has demands as well, although for diplomatic reasons they will not discuss it. Moreover, I really don't see any substantial benefit in having open borders with Turkey. Turkey produces cheap goods, nothing else. Armenia needs to concentrate on better relations with Iran, Russia and the EU. At least there we know that our existence is actually within their national interests.

The Turkish border is the longest, therefore, simplest, cheapest and quickest route for transporting goods. The Georgian border is short, risky, unstable and under-developed. The Iranian border is tiny and Iran has serious long-term geo-political problems. Under these circumstances, the worst thing that can happen to Armenia is to have open borders and normal relations with Turks. Economically Turks can overwhelm us within a very short period of time. And once your main source of income is placed within the hands of the enemy - kiss your vor, and your national interests, goodbye. I am surprised more Armenians have not been able to see the long term risks in all this. However, I suspect that many serious political organization within Armenia and the Diaspora, especially the ARF, do see the long term risks with having open borders with Turkey.

It is very troubling that we Armenians have simply forgotten that Turkey was ready to invade Armenia in 1993. This was in '1993' not in 1905 or 1918 or 1921. This was in modern times. You know, the modern 'civilized' Turk. Rest assured, power-brokers in Turkey hate us and they fear us they would love for us to simply disappear. If is was not for the South Caucasus command of the Russian Army, Yerevan today would have been an occupied Armenian city as well.

In short: Armenia today serves the geo-political interest of Iran and Russia and to a lesser extent the European Union. However, Armenia does not serve the long term interest of Turkey and obviously, Azerbaijan. And that is why we can't have any real close relations with Turks. Simply put, a prosperous Armenia is not in their long term interest. As far as Americans are concerned, they are there today, and gone tomorrow - when their 'interests' disappear. When it comes to Armenan issues, we obviously can't trust Washington DC.

We Armenians need to concentrate on building closer economic and political relations with Russians, Iranians, the EU and the Arab world. Let's hope the winds of war in Iran passes soon. Let's hope Georgia gets run-over by Russia. Let's hope the Turkish border remains closed. Armenian will do well looking north and south. As a matter of fact, much to the disappointment of Ankara and Washington DC, the Armenian economy has been doing relatively well despite the Turkic blockade.

[karot]

A prosperous Armenia is not within the long term interest of the Turkish nation - simply because we Armenians want lands and reparations. No self-respecting Turk is going to give away strategic lands to us Armenians. Trust me on that. Moreover, the Turks will not give us reparations because it would ruin their already small bank accounts. Moreover, giving us lands or reparations is a Pandora's box for them. Once they do it for us, it will be Assyrians, Kurds and Greeks, Cypriots lining up.

However, the biggest fear Armenian nationalists have is the massive economic and demographic size of Turkey. Theoretically, if the Republic of Armenia engages in open trade, and all is civil between us and the Turks, there is a great danger that the Republic of Armenia, as small and as isolated as it is, will become desperately dependent on Turkey for survival. This is the biggest long term fear that Armenia has with regards to open trade with Turkey.

I personally feel that we can not have official relations with Turkey as long as we have national demands. And, as far as I am concerned, the Armenian diaspora has demands and, as a matter of fact, the Armenian Republic has demands as well, although for diplomatic reasons they will not discuss it. Moreover, I really don't see any substantial benefit in having open borders with Turkey. Turkey produces cheap goods, nothing else. Armenia needs to concentrate on better relations with Iran, Russia and the EU. At least there we know that our existence is actually within their national interests.

The Turkish border is the longest, therefore, simplest, cheapest and quickest route for transporting goods. The Georgian border is short, risky, unstable and under-developed. The Iranian border is tiny and Iran has serious long-term geo-political problems. Under these circumstances, the worst thing that can happen to Armenia is to have open borders and normal relations with Turks. Economically Turks can overwhelm us within a very short period of time. And once your main source of income is placed within the hands of the enemy - kiss your vor, and your national interests, goodbye. I am surprised more Armenians have not been able to see the long term risks in all this. However, I suspect that many serious political organization within Armenia and the Diaspora, especially the ARF, do see the long term risks with having open borders with Turkey.

It is very troubling that we Armenians have simply forgotten that Turkey was ready to invade Armenia in 1993. This was in '1993' not in 1905 or 1918 or 1921. This was in modern times. You know, the modern 'civilized' Turk. Rest assured, power-brokers in Turkey hate us and they fear us they would love for us to simply disappear. If is was not for the South Caucasus command of the Russian Army, Yerevan today would have been an occupied Armenian city as well.

In short: Armenia today serves the geo-political interest of Iran and Russia and to a lesser extent the European Union. However, Armenia does not serve the long term interest of Turkey and obviously, Azerbaijan. And that is why we can't have any real close relations with Turks. Simply put, a prosperous Armenia is not in their long term interest. As far as Americans are concerned, they are there today, and gone tomorrow - when their 'interests' disappear. When it comes to Armenan issues, we obviously can't trust Washington DC.

We Armenians need to concentrate on building closer economic and political relations with Russians, Iranians, the EU and the Arab world. Let's hope the winds of war in Iran passes soon. Let's hope Georgia gets run-over by Russia. Let's hope the Turkish border remains closed. Armenian will do well looking north and south. As a matter of fact, much to the disappointment of Ankara and Washington DC, the Armenian economy has been doing relatively well despite the Turkic blockade.

how RACIST,narrow minded and utopic person you are.With your excellent ideas,Armenians will be happy in the future,sure!When taking with the lands,all problem will be solved.

Oh poority,sorry but It sounds as farts of a donkey.

[skhara]

Great essay enker.

I'll have to plagarize from this every once in a while -- I'm sure you won't mind. :)

A prosperous Armenia is not within the long term interest of the Turkish nation - simply because we Armenians want lands and reparations. No self-respecting Turk is going to give away strategic lands to us Armenians. Trust me on that. Moreover, the Turks will not give us reparations because it would ruin their already small bank accounts. Moreover, giving us lands or reparations is a Pandora's box for them. Once they do it for us, it will be Assyrians, Kurds and Greeks, Cypriots lining up.

However, the biggest fear Armenian nationalists have is the massive economic and demographic size of Turkey. Theoretically, if the Republic of Armenia engages in open trade, and all is civil between us and the Turks, there is a great danger that the Republic of Armenia, as small and as isolated as it is, will become desperately dependent on Turkey for survival. This is the biggest long term fear that Armenia has with regards to open trade with Turkey.

I personally feel that we can not have official relations with Turkey as long as we have national demands. And, as far as I am concerned, the Armenian diaspora has demands and, as a matter of fact, the Armenian Republic has demands as well, although for diplomatic reasons they will not discuss it. Moreover, I really don't see any substantial benefit in having open borders with Turkey. Turkey produces cheap goods, nothing else. Armenia needs to concentrate on better relations with Iran, Russia and the EU. At least there we know that our existence is actually within their national interests.

The Turkish border is the longest, therefore, simplest, cheapest and quickest route for transporting goods. The Georgian border is short, risky, unstable and under-developed. The Iranian border is tiny and Iran has serious long-term geo-political problems. Under these circumstances, the worst thing that can happen to Armenia is to have open borders and normal relations with Turks. Economically Turks can overwhelm us within a very short period of time. And once your main source of income is placed within the hands of the enemy - kiss your vor, and your national interests, goodbye. I am surprised more Armenians have not been able to see the long term risks in all this. However, I suspect that many serious political organization within Armenia and the Diaspora, especially the ARF, do see the long term risks with having open borders with Turkey.

It is very troubling that we Armenians have simply forgotten that Turkey was ready to invade Armenia in 1993. This was in '1993' not in 1905 or 1918 or 1921. This was in modern times. You know, the modern 'civilized' Turk. Rest assured, power-brokers in Turkey hate us and they fear us they would love for us to simply disappear. If is was not for the South Caucasus command of the Russian Army, Yerevan today would have been an occupied Armenian city as well.

In short: Armenia today serves the geo-political interest of Iran and Russia and to a lesser extent the European Union. However, Armenia does not serve the long term interest of Turkey and obviously, Azerbaijan. And that is why we can't have any real close relations with Turks. Simply put, a prosperous Armenia is not in their long term interest. As far as Americans are concerned, they are there today, and gone tomorrow - when their 'interests' disappear. When it comes to Armenan issues, we obviously can't trust Washington DC.

We Armenians need to concentrate on building closer economic and political relations with Russians, Iranians, the EU and the Arab world. Let's hope the winds of war in Iran passes soon. Let's hope Georgia gets run-over by Russia. Let's hope the Turkish border remains closed. Armenian will do well looking north and south. As a matter of fact, much to the disappointment of Ankara and Washington DC, the Armenian economy has been doing relatively well despite the Turkic blockade.

[karoaper]

Great essay enker.

I'll have to plagarize from this every once in a while -- I'm sure you won't mind. :)

I have to agree. Very sober and logical analysis Armenian. I personally feel a bit like a cheat though when I say the border should be closed, because I don't have to struggle in the republic. But then again, as several experts have stated, the economic relief won't be real, it won't be lasting. I would think it'd be a bit like the tax breaks offered in US. The key is internal progress, which is taking place, even though very slowly.

[KarotheGreat]

Great essay
I'agree the border must stay clost till we have our lands back one way or an other we'll get them back from the Orkish(turkish) horde :)

[Armenian]

I have to agree. Very sober and logical analysis Armenian. I personally feel a bit like a cheat though when I say the border should be closed, because I don't have to struggle in the republic.

I understand what you are saying aper.

However, in the short term, opening the borders will only serve the interests of select few 'businessmen,' low wage migrant laborers and freelance prostitutes. Open borders may also in the short term lower the costs of certain imported goods into Armenia. At the same time, however, open borders in the 'long-term' means risking economic dependency on a nation that is essentially your enemy. What's more, we may also have an influx of thousands of uneducated Kurdish laborers pouring into Armenia as well.

As a result, what justice, what reparations, what lands, can we Armenians speak of when we are engaged in such 'healthy' economic relations with those who we claim were responsible for the murder of two million Armenians and the destruction of 90% of our historic lands. And you think a certain segment of our society is corrupt, backward and 'asiatic' now... Wait till thousand of Turks and Kurds begin to pour into Armenia, then you will see how 'asiatic' Armenians can truly become.

At the turn of the twentieth century vast majority of Armenians in Anatolia were more-or-less Turkifed, we were essentially Christian Turks then. The revolutionary parties at the time (Dashnaks and Hnchaks) fought against this pathetic condition by awakening the spirit of nationalism. However, Armenian nationalists at the time were very small in number. And that is one of the main reasons why Turks managed to do what they did in 1915. At any given time, Armenians who wanted to fight Turks were very few in number, most were simple non-nationalistic folk, much like our 'Polsahias' of today. The main factor that helped Armenia rekindle its national culture was being 'totally' cut-off from Turks, Kurds and Persians after the First World War - thanks to the Soviet Union.

The thing to remember is that Turkey and Azerbaijan are Armenia's most 'convenient' routes for economic trade. Once Armenian trade begins to flow through Turkey and Azerbaijan, Armenia, being as small and as isolated as it is, will become dangerously dependent upon Ankara and Baku. Once we get into that 'turkic' situation Armenia as we know it will simply disappear. In other words, once you put your national interests firmly in the hands of corrupt businessmen, forget about national interests.

Some people say: What if Turkey did 'this or did that' to reconcile with Armenians. Can't we trade with them then?

I say: By the time Turkey did what they need to do in order to reconcile with Armenians - the nation of Turkey as we know it won't exist.

As far as I know no self-respecting Turk is willing to give a sincere apology, reparations that must run in the many billions of US dollars, and a healthy portion of eastern Turkey. Thus, do you really think Ankara will have good economic intentions, let alone any other good intentions towards Armenia? Thus, don't count on Turkey apologizing, giving reparation or lands. As a result, we don't need the borders open for reasons of our national interests. I don't know about you, but I would 'not' want to see 'friendly' relations with Turks under such conditions.

Also, lets realize that closed borders may force Armenians to seriously look towards Russia, EU and Iran for survival and growth.

Do you really think that trading with 'two' million impoverished landlocked Armenians on their eastern border is going to make or break the Turkish economy? Well, trade with Turks may actually break us Armenians in the long term. In this regard, I careless what the average 'Yerevantsi' thinks. I don't give a damn about what average 'akhpar' thinks. I don't give a crap about what the average impoverished Armenian thinks. I am only concerned about the long-term health and survival of the nation - our Fatherland. My advise for anyone looking at such national matters is to look beyond the individual. Individuals come and go, thus its not prudent to alter our national agenda to appease the ignorant and/or hungry masses.

The well being of the Fatherland is above all.

[gmd]

I understand what you are saying aper.

My advise for anyone looking at such national matters is to look beyond the individual. Individuals come and go, thus its not prudent to alter our national agenda to appease the ignorant and/or hungry masses.

The well being of the Fatherland is above all.

You have an excellent point on the importance of the nation above the individual. This may not be applicable everywhere but it is pertinent that Armenians adopt this attitude to overcome the many crosses we bear as a people.
However, the conspiracy may have already begun. If a few people in power think only of themselves to the detriment of the masses then the betrayal of Armenia has already occurred. What the ignorant/hungry masses are doing is imitating bad leaders out of desperation. Unity comes from the top.
As you stated and I whole heartily agree, "The well being of the Fatherland is above all."
If the current pool of Armenian leaders lack the resolve to skip a couple of meals to insure the masses are fed then they are not the leaders to inspire and unite all Armenians against our true enemies. Fortunately there is fresh Armenian blood to infuse change into our nation from every corner of this world. It will take time and the devotion of those like you who think beyond themselves.

[Kamo]

this is a joke

why dream of this ridiculous armenia, when u can help armenia today.

do you think those who sleep hungry in armenia care about western armenian land?
you think those who are ill in dilapidated hospitals care about it?
you think the unemployed want to lose blood on these diasporan ideals?

no. grow up.

[gmd]

this is a joke

why dream of this ridiculous armenia, when u can help armenia today.

do you think those who sleep hungry in armenia care about western armenian land?
you think those who are ill in dilapidated hospitals care about it?
you think the unemployed want to lose blood on these diasporan ideals?

no. grow up.
you are so wise. maybe you can move to Armenia and run for President and fix all the problems that Armenians face. Can you outline your platform for me maybe I can help you iron out details.

[Armenian]

this is a joke

why dream of this ridiculous armenia, when u can help armenia today. do you think those who sleep hungry in armenia care about western armenian land? you think those who are ill in dilapidated hospitals care about it?
you think the unemployed want to lose blood on these diasporan ideals?

no. grow up.

Backward 'geghatsi' individuals like you have never mounted to anything in our society. Throughout history, your like have been pathetic cannon fodder for Turks and Bolsheviks alike. When I say we need to ignore the 'ignorant' masses, my words are meant to apply towards individuals like you.

[Kamo]

you are so wise. maybe you can move to Armenia and run for President and fix all the problems that Armenians face. Can you outline your platform for me maybe I can help you iron out details.

Outline my platform?
Well, im not as arrogant or as unrealistic as some on this board to announce a super new plan, but i will give a few opinions on where Armenia should go,
this is based on me spending 3 months a year there, and having contant feedback and news from there. I also am continuing to study policy making at university, so i hope it gives me a decent basis for applying policies to a real country.

Armenia has many problems facing it today, most of these revolve around the issue of not enough money going into the budget, to be then spent on welfare and so on, such as healthcare, education, social provisions, military, research, etc etc. Therefore, the economy needs to be improved.

To do this, an extremely skilled workforce is needed, to be able to attract foreign investment into the country. We cannot bid for investment on basis of cheap labour, this neither will mean long term investment, nor will it help the masses in armenia who have suffered enough. To do this
- Education needs to be a priority, unlike today
- Guarantees need to be given to firms of political stability
- Give temporary financial incentives to firms (e.g. 10 year tax break) (I am usually against tax breaks, but if it means cutting employment, which is at extremely high levels, then at least its filling in a problem, if not actually adding to tax revenue - however more imployment = more spending = more products sold = more tax brought in

Secondly, the issue of Corruption:
There are two choices
1 - A revolution of the masses who end corruption by force
2 - To appease the corrupt, let them skim the top at the expense of the masses, until there is a strong enough government who can pay officals more money than it is worth them to accept bribes

At the same time buureaucracy should be cut. The use of technology can be used for this, thus cutting out people who can take bribes. (See "E-government) for this.

Thirdly, Social issues
- These should be addressed as soon as the economy allows.
This does not mean social problems are less important than finance, however, to solve the many horrific problems in armenia (prostitution, drugs, crime etc) there needs funding.
-These issues which are replicated in all CIS countries have filled my eyes out of the plight of these forgotten people, and it is vital we can help them as soon as possible. And this is the crux of the argument as to why the notion of creating policies for Western Armenia is a non-starter.



On the issue of Western Armenia...

The Republic of Armenia has NO legal claims to historical Armenia, and cannot achieve anything without the use of force - again, a non starter. Nobody will start a war and lose more sons and brothers and fathers to a war. Particularly as the Kharabagh issue is not even close to being solved.

Private individuals should use their territorial claims and either take the land back, or get compensation for it. This should be done thorugh the legal system. This isnt too unrealistic, given that most of this land is in nomadic peoples hands, and the Turks dont really care unless there are political ramifications. The armenians would after all have to pay land tax, which the kurds dont...

I would also like to remind people of the people living in Turkey at the moment, i believe, i could be wrong, there are 50,000 Armenians in Turkey, a lot who are still well to do, now imagine what would happen to them well before any act of war was produced.

The scenario was given that if there is civil unrest in Turkey, and geopolitical powers wanted to push into Turkey, then Armenia should grab the opportunity (i think the scenario was given in the future situation). Sound awfully familiar...of 1915. And its surprising that Nationalist Armenians want to create the same framework within which the first genocide of the 20th century occured. I dont think 1 armenian would be left in that situation.

Dreaming is fine, but know the consequences.

I would also like to know who has been to Armenia and for how regularly a year. I ask this as this truly shows if people are talking Diasporan nonsense, or have even the tiniest bit of understanding of what is going on in Armenia today.

Work for Armenia today, not the dreams of yesteryear.

I encourage anyone to go to Armenia, and see how you can help anyone there, with work, education or any other way.

[gmd]

Outline my platform?
Well, im not as arrogant or as unrealistic as some on this board to announce a super new plan, but i will give a few opinions on where Armenia should go,
this is based on me spending 3 months a year there, and having contant feedback and news from there. I also am continuing to study policy making at university, so i hope it gives me a decent basis for applying policies to a real country.

Armenia has many problems facing it today, most of these revolve around the issue of not enough money going into the budget, to be then spent on welfare and so on, such as healthcare, education, social provisions, military, research, etc etc. Therefore, the economy needs to be improved.

To do this, an extremely skilled workforce is needed, to be able to attract foreign investment into the country. We cannot bid for investment on basis of cheap labour, this neither will mean long term investment, nor will it help the masses in armenia who have suffered enough. To do this
- Education needs to be a priority, unlike today
- Guarantees need to be given to firms of political stability
- Give temporary financial incentives to firms (e.g. 10 year tax break) (I am usually against tax breaks, but if it means cutting employment, which is at extremely high levels, then at least its filling in a problem, if not actually adding to tax revenue - however more imployment = more spending = more products sold = more tax brought in

Secondly, the issue of Corruption:
There are two choices
1 - A revolution of the masses who end corruption by force
2 - To appease the corrupt, let them skim the top at the expense of the masses, until there is a strong enough government who can pay officals more money than it is worth them to accept bribes

At the same time buureaucracy should be cut. The use of technology can be used for this, thus cutting out people who can take bribes. (See "E-government) for this.

Thirdly, Social issues
- These should be addressed as soon as the economy allows.
This does not mean social problems are less important than finance, however, to solve the many horrific problems in armenia (prostitution, drugs, crime etc) there needs funding.
-These issues which are replicated in all CIS countries have filled my eyes out of the plight of these forgotten people, and it is vital we can help them as soon as possible. And this is the crux of the argument as to why the notion of creating policies for Western Armenia is a non-starter.



On the issue of Western Armenia...

The Republic of Armenia has NO legal claims to historical Armenia, and cannot achieve anything without the use of force - again, a non starter. Nobody will start a war and lose more sons and brothers and fathers to a war. Particularly as the Kharabagh issue is not even close to being solved.

Private individuals should use their territorial claims and either take the land back, or get compensation for it. This should be done thorugh the legal system. This isnt too unrealistic, given that most of this land is in nomadic peoples hands, and the Turks dont really care unless there are political ramifications. The armenians would after all have to pay land tax, which the kurds dont...

I would also like to remind people of the people living in Turkey at the moment, i believe, i could be wrong, there are 50,000 Armenians in Turkey, a lot who are still well to do, now imagine what would happen to them well before any act of war was produced.

The scenario was given that if there is civil unrest in Turkey, and geopolitical powers wanted to push into Turkey, then Armenia should grab the opportunity (i think the scenario was given in the future situation). Sound awfully familiar...of 1915. And its surprising that Nationalist Armenians want to create the same framework within which the first genocide of the 20th century occured. I dont think 1 armenian would be left in that situation.

Dreaming is fine, but know the consequences.

I would also like to know who has been to Armenia and for how regularly a year. I ask this as this truly shows if people are talking Diasporan nonsense, or have even the tiniest bit of understanding of what is going on in Armenia today.

Work for Armenia today, not the dreams of yesteryear.

I encourage anyone to go to Armenia, and see how you can help anyone there, with work, education or any other way.

You make valid points on the current situation and if you are in fact going back and forth and trying to make a difference, you have my respect for that.
I have not been back since I was a teenager on a trip with my family and Armenia was still part of USSR. In general my involvement has not been extensive but I do have relatives who I hope to visit in the coming year. Our family in America basically supports a good portion if not all of our family in Armenia.
As of the second part there are way too many flaws in my opinion. Of course my opinion is based on my own experience and observation on what power and force mean. In your scenario Armenia remains little more than a vassal state and hopes that it can stay in the good graces of Russia, Iran, and Turkey so that another genocide does not occur. Genocides still go on today and no one does anything about them. My belief is that with the prolifiration of nukes, the lethality of modern weapons and tactics, the scarcity of resources will all lead to further wars with catastrophic consequences. Regardless where I live I intend to do what I can to provide for me and mine. Armenians are mine by virtue of blood and heritage. I think it is naive to not realize that in any major war it is valid and in the best interests of all nations to grab as much realestate as possible and eliminate the competition. I am not trying to advocate war or genocide but the reason they happen is because it is a part of human nature and civilized rules go out the door when your arse is on the line.
So please continue your efforts and I cerainly think they are worthwhile but don't preach peace our of fear. That was the thinking that allowed Armenians to remain slaves for 600 yrs and get butchered, not the nationalists who had enough of slavery and stood up to fight.

[Kamo]

Well, it is fact is it not, that Armenia at the moment is nothing more than a semi-colonial state, and this was the decision taken by the HHSh movement, and either way, whats done is done.

the fact is at the moment, Turkey is much more powerful than Armenia, and the only way Armenia can get ahead is by becoming smart

Look at Israel, how it defeated Egypt...
Now i dont condone the genocidal actions of Israel against the arabs, but i think Armenia can avoid the pitfalls in which ISrael fell, and become a powerhouse.

You also said you wanted to pick at my argument, which i was looking forward to (as discussion is the only way forward), but you didnt even answer any of the points you claim are "flawed"

Now either they are not flawed, or you do not have a better solution?

And i dont mean that in a patronising way. Armenian politics has become interesting recently, and i want to hear more peoples views.

[gmd]

Well, it is fact is it not, that Armenia at the moment is nothing more than a semi-colonial state, and this was the decision taken by the HHSh movement, and either way, whats done is done.

the fact is at the moment, Turkey is much more powerful than Armenia, and the only way Armenia can get ahead is by becoming smart

Look at Israel, how it defeated Egypt...
Now i dont condone the genocidal actions of Israel against the arabs, but i think Armenia can avoid the pitfalls in which ISrael fell, and become a powerhouse.

You also said you wanted to pick at my argument, which i was looking forward to (as discussion is the only way forward), but you didnt even answer any of the points you claim are "flawed"

Now either they are not flawed, or you do not have a better solution?

And i dont mean that in a patronising way. Armenian politics has become interesting recently, and i want to hear more peoples views.
Point well taken. let me list the flaws in my opinion.

[gmd]

Outline my platform?
Well, im not as arrogant or as unrealistic as some on this board to announce a super new plan, but i will give a few opinions on where Armenia should go,
this is based on me spending 3 months a year there, and having contant feedback and news from there. I also am continuing to study policy making at university, so i hope it gives me a decent basis for applying policies to a real country.

Armenia has many problems facing it today, most of these revolve around the issue of not enough money going into the budget, to be then spent on welfare and so on, such as healthcare, education, social provisions, military, research, etc etc. Therefore, the economy needs to be improved.

To do this, an extremely skilled workforce is needed, to be able to attract foreign investment into the country. We cannot bid for investment on basis of cheap labour, this neither will mean long term investment, nor will it help the masses in armenia who have suffered enough. To do this
- Education needs to be a priority, unlike today
- Guarantees need to be given to firms of political stability
- Give temporary financial incentives to firms (e.g. 10 year tax break) (I am usually against tax breaks, but if it means cutting employment, which is at extremely high levels, then at least its filling in a problem, if not actually adding to tax revenue - however more imployment = more spending = more products sold = more tax brought in

Secondly, the issue of Corruption:
There are two choices
1 - A revolution of the masses who end corruption by force
2 - To appease the corrupt, let them skim the top at the expense of the masses, until there is a strong enough government who can pay officals more money than it is worth them to accept bribes

At the same time buureaucracy should be cut. The use of technology can be used for this, thus cutting out people who can take bribes. (See "E-government) for this.

Thirdly, Social issues
- These should be addressed as soon as the economy allows.
This does not mean social problems are less important than finance, however, to solve the many horrific problems in armenia (prostitution, drugs, crime etc) there needs funding.
-These issues which are replicated in all CIS countries have filled my eyes out of the plight of these forgotten people, and it is vital we can help them as soon as possible. And this is the crux of the argument as to why the notion of creating policies for Western Armenia is a non-starter.



On the issue of Western Armenia...

The Republic of Armenia has NO legal claims to historical Armenia, and cannot achieve anything without the use of force - again, a non starter. Nobody will start a war and lose more sons and brothers and fathers to a war. Particularly as the Kharabagh issue is not even close to being solved.

Private individuals should use their territorial claims and either take the land back, or get compensation for it. This should be done thorugh the legal system. This isnt too unrealistic, given that most of this land is in nomadic peoples hands, and the Turks dont really care unless there are political ramifications. The armenians would after all have to pay land tax, which the kurds dont...

I would also like to remind people of the people living in Turkey at the moment, i believe, i could be wrong, there are 50,000 Armenians in Turkey, a lot who are still well to do, now imagine what would happen to them well before any act of war was produced.

The scenario was given that if there is civil unrest in Turkey, and geopolitical powers wanted to push into Turkey, then Armenia should grab the opportunity (i think the scenario was given in the future situation). Sound awfully familiar...of 1915. And its surprising that Nationalist Armenians want to create the same framework within which the first genocide of the 20th century occured. I dont think 1 armenian would be left in that situation.

Dreaming is fine, but know the consequences.

I would also like to know who has been to Armenia and for how regularly a year. I ask this as this truly shows if people are talking Diasporan nonsense, or have even the tiniest bit of understanding of what is going on in Armenia today.

Work for Armenia today, not the dreams of yesteryear.

I encourage anyone to go to Armenia, and see how you can help anyone there, with work, education or any other way.

My responses. Sorry for the delay I got called into a meeting.

By saying the RA has no legal claims to lands in Turkey you are showing a willingness to follow the present status quo of the world. This is wrong and ultimately anti-Armenian and pro-Globalist. It is not in the interests of any nation or people to succumb to a global leadership. The larger the organization (even democracies) the less democracy and freedom for individual or cultural minorities.

The whole section on private individuals making claims to Turkey.... I cannot agree with this. Either way it is full of problems. If the plan is to do a "Zionist" type land grab like in Palestine, ok if you think Turkey will allow it. If not then what? After the Genocide what self-respecting Armenian is going to live under Turkish rule. Plus adding the part about paying tax to Turkey just rubs me in the wrong way. Should these people also swear loyalty to Turkey and call themselves Turks first and then Armenians? If it is just to get something back and these people turn around sell the land then it was for personal gain and they are really no different then any other profiteer.

If you truly believe that the consequences of any conflict with Turkey will end in another attempt at Genocide against our people then there is not need for me to justify my aggressive and hostile attitude towards Turkey and my desire to work only at destabilizing their nation for the gain of Armenians.

[gmd]

Well, it is fact is it not, that Armenia at the moment is nothing more than a semi-colonial state, and this was the decision taken by the HHSh movement, and either way, whats done is done.

the fact is at the moment, Turkey is much more powerful than Armenia, and the only way Armenia can get ahead is by becoming smart

Look at Israel, how it defeated Egypt...
Now i dont condone the genocidal actions of Israel against the arabs, but i think Armenia can avoid the pitfalls in which ISrael fell, and become a powerhouse.

You also said you wanted to pick at my argument, which i was looking forward to (as discussion is the only way forward), but you didnt even answer any of the points you claim are "flawed"

Now either they are not flawed, or you do not have a better solution?

And i dont mean that in a patronising way. Armenian politics has become interesting recently, and i want to hear more peoples views.

To be fair to you I will agree that I do not know the situation in Armenia. I can tell you my ideas but from what I have read one needs connections to get things done in Armenia. My relatives are honest working people without jobs, so I do not believe they will be the source for connections in getting things accomplished. Armenians in the diaspora need to continue support as they do especially in the political arena. This will become even more important if Armenia ever gets any real defense industry off the ground. Since the nation does not have the resources for massive factory type work it can and should consider those weapons within its means. If they are not already working on building something with all the frigging nuke waste then I don't know what they are thinking. If the US can ignore NPT, saltII etc then lil ol Armenia can be sly and work on something on the side, especially with the Iranians. That is just for starters. Anyway, I am interested on your responses. Will have to check back in a while need to deploy some changes first.

[Armenian]

Outline my platform? Well, im not as arrogant or as unrealistic as some on this board to announce a super new plan, but i will give a few opinions on where Armenia should go...

You seem to be quite "arrogant" and "unrealistic" to think that you have the answers for Armenia's current plight. Based upon what I have seen you write thus far, you obviously have no comprehension of this topic of discussion.

I also am continuing to study policy making at university, so i hope it gives me a decent basis for applying policies to a real country.

Oh, O.K. Now I see where your arrogance comes from.

So, Armenia is your sachool experiment, eh?

Will you get a credit bonus if you fix Armenia?

Jeez... I can't stand annoying 'students' like you.

Armenia has many problems facing it today, most of these revolve around the issue of not enough money going into the budget, to be then spent on welfare and so on, such as healthcare, education, social provisions, military, research, etc etc. Therefore, the economy needs to be improved.

Wow! You mean you had to go to a 'university' to come to this realization?

Education can be a dangerous thing for some people.

To do this, an extremely skilled workforce is needed, to be able to attract foreign investment into the country. We cannot bid for investment on basis of cheap labour, this neither will mean long term investment, nor will it help the masses in armenia who have suffered enough. To do this
- Education needs to be a priority, unlike today
- Guarantees need to be given to firms of political stability
- Give temporary financial incentives to firms (e.g. 10 year tax break) (I am usually against tax breaks, but if it means cutting employment, which is at extremely high levels, then at least its filling in a problem, if not actually adding to tax revenue - however more imployment = more spending = more products sold = more tax brought in

To do the above you need normal neighbors and a normal geo-political environment. You also need free and unhindred access to the outside world. Most of all you need peace. You need foregin investments. What's more, you need a new generation of Armenians free of old Bolshevik mentalities. And you need to put all of the above together and give it plenty of time. All you are doing is blindly and foolishly applying 'American' economic formulas to Armenia's unique concerns and conditions.

Secondly, the issue of Corruption:
There are two choices
1 - A revolution of the masses who end corruption by force
2 - To appease the corrupt, let them skim the top at the expense of the masses, until there is a strong enough government who can pay officals more money than it is worth them to accept bribes, At the same time buureaucracy should be cut. The use of technology can be used for this, thus cutting out people who can take bribes. (See "E-government) for this.

Talk to me about stopping corruption when you stop corruption anywhere else on earth, including your ideal "Israel," or America, or Europe. Again, you are applying generic and vague formulas to Armenia's unique situation. Again, you are day dreaming.

Thirdly, Social issues
- These should be addressed as soon as the economy allows.
This does not mean social problems are less important than finance, however, to solve the many horrific problems in armenia (prostitution, drugs, crime etc) there needs funding.

I thought you stated - bureaucracy should be cut?

-These issues which are replicated in all CIS countries have filled my eyes out of the plight of these forgotten people, and it is vital we can help them as soon as possible. And this is the crux of the argument as to why the notion of creating policies for Western Armenia is a non-starter.

O.K. To make you happy we'll turn Armenia into a welfare state. How that? Regarding Western Armenia, I suggest you re-read my comments and posts regarding it before you make pointless comments.

On the issue of Western Armenia...

The Republic of Armenia has NO legal claims to historical Armenia, and cannot achieve anything without the use of force - again, a non starter. Nobody will start a war and lose more sons and brothers and fathers to a war. Particularly as the Kharabagh issue is not even close to being solved.

Actually, Armenia 'has' a legal claim to the lands. I suggest you wake up from your stupor. Again, I suggest you re-read my comments and posts before you continue making yourself sound less-than smart. Thus far, your intellect is not very becoming of a 'gung-ho' university student.

Private individuals should use their territorial claims and either take the land back, or get compensation for it. This should be done thorugh the legal system. This isnt too unrealistic, given that most of this land is in nomadic peoples hands, and the Turks dont really care unless there are political ramifications. The armenians would after all have to pay land tax, which the kurds dont...

Through the legal system??? :laugh: Surly you must be a naive child. Please spare us the drama...

I would also like to remind people of the people living in Turkey at the moment, i believe, i could be wrong, there are 50,000 Armenians in Turkey, a lot who are still well to do, now imagine what would happen to them well before any act of war was produced.

You are talking to a person that could care-less what happens to those people. And yet again, you have totally misunderstood my comments about Western Armenia.

The scenario was given that if there is civil unrest in Turkey, and geopolitical powers wanted to push into Turkey, then Armenia should grab the opportunity (i think the scenario was given in the future situation). Sound awfully familiar...of 1915. And its surprising that Nationalist Armenians want to create the same framework within which the first genocide of the 20th century occured. I dont think 1 armenian would be left in that situation.

And you sound awfully familiar to the countless lame-ducks and traitors we have had throughout our history. Had the entire Armenian nation within the Ottoman Empire rose in union under the "Nationalist" flag - there would not have been an Armenian Genocide to lament over today. It is your kind that has kept us back from realizing our potential.

Dreaming is fine, but know the consequences.

Exactly.

I would also like to know who has been to Armenia and for how regularly a year. I ask this as this truly shows if people are talking Diasporan nonsense, or have even the tiniest bit of understanding of what is going on in Armenia today.

Get off your fabricated high horse. The Armenian Republic is more familiar to me - physically, intellectually and spiritually - than you think.

Work for Armenia today, not the dreams of yesteryear.

No thanks. I'll work for the Armenia of tomorrow, you worry about today.

I encourage anyone to go to Armenia, and see how you can help anyone there, with work, education or any other way.

Thank you for your wise words of encouragement.

Well, it is fact is it not, that Armenia at the moment is nothing more than a semi-colonial state, and this was the decision taken by the HHSh movement, and either way, whats done is done.

Those were the cards that were dealt to us with the fall of the Soviet Union. A tiny landlocked nation surrounded by troublesome giants. A tiny landlocked nation surrounded by political, economic and ethinc crisis. Nonetheless, I rather be a "semi-colonial state" of Russia than a full subject of Turkey.

the fact is at the moment, Turkey is much more powerful than Armenia, and the only way Armenia can get ahead is by becoming smart

OH, O.K. Lets become smart...

Look at Israel, how it defeated Egypt...
Now i dont condone the genocidal actions of Israel against the arabs, but i think Armenia can avoid the pitfalls in which ISrael fell, and become a powerhouse.

Why look at Israel? Were they the only ones who defeated an enemy? Didn't Armenians defeat a foe much wealthier and larger? Besides, don't talk about topics that you dont understand anything about, especially military topics. Nonetheless, I strongly suggest you stop comparing Israel's geo-political situation with Armenia's. The birth of the two nations, the geo-political situations of the two nations are a world apart.

When Armenians number over ten-fifteen million in the US and control the US government; when Armenians control the main-stream news media and popular culture in America; when Armenia siphones off over five hundred billion dollars of American tax payers money for the 'unconditional' use of the Armenian republic - we'll then talk about comparing Armenia to Israel. Advise for you, comparing Armenians and Joos makes you look stupid, for the two nations in question could not be any more different than they already are.

Anyway, I wold like to thank you for your sage-like suggestions. And let me also tell you, had you been a bit more civil in your initial reply to my topic of discussion, I would have treated you as an adult. However, seeing that you are just a spolied child you will be treated as such.

[Armenian]

By saying the RA has no legal claims to lands in Turkey you are showing a willingness to follow the present status quo of the world. This is wrong and ultimately anti-Armenian and pro-Globalist. It is not in the interests of any nation or people to succumb to a global leadership. The larger the organization (even democracies) the less democracy and freedom for individual or cultural minorities.

The reality is that Armenia has a very "legal" claim to those lands in question. The lands were not given away by Armenians, they were given away by the Bolsheviks in 1921. Armenians never signed the agreement at the time between Moscow and Ankara. On paper, Armenians recognizes the 1918 'Wilsonian Armenia.' At the end of the First World War, Wilsonian Armenia was accepted by the international community as well, before the Bolsheviks came into the scene. However, now that Bolshevism is no more, Armenia can legally ask for the lands back.

The following article pertains this topic of discussion.

About the Denunciation of the Russian-Turkish Treaty

Summary Right now there is too much talking about both the formation of a civil society in terms of law and its integration in the international community. Out of consideration for international laws and regulations, it is really important to re-establish a historical justice. The geopolitical and strategic matters will not be settled without first solving the issue of the Armenian territories of a prior-to-the-revolution Russia. The March 16, 1921 Treaty between the Soviet Socialist Republic of Russia and the government of Kemalist Turkey is a clear example of the breach of the peoples’ rights. It must be borne in mind that since the summer of 1920, there were two government in Turkey: one in Ankara led by Mustafa Kemal (Atatürk); and another one internationally recognized in those days - the Constantinople government.

In the first part of the Treaty, Russia factually recognized the superiority of the Turkish decisions about the international conventions and the principles approved by the UN. In the second part - about the Black Sea and the straits - there are a number of articles not accomplished any more. On page 8, Russia recognized the zone controlled by the Kemalists in March, 1921, as an integral part of the «Turkish territories». Neither then nor now is there a single justification for this in terms of international law.

The Nakhitchevan province was part of the first Republic of Armenia since 1918, and of the Armenian part of the Czarist Russia since 1828. Mount Ararat (on which Noah’s Ark would run aground) was part of this province, of which Turkey took possession. Then, from February 9, 1924, Nakhitchevan became an autonomous republic within the Soviet Socialist Republic of Azerbaijan. This treaty conflicts with the Vienna Convention «on the laws of international treaties». The rights of the Russian, Armenian, Kurdish and Greek peoples have not been respected. So, the said treaty must be annulled or revised. It equally opposes the Statement of the Human Rights stipulated by the UN in 1948.

Together with the Armenian National Club Miabanutiun, we advocate the creation of a program aimed at settling the issue by stages. The first would consist of a Russian-Turkish agreement including the right for the descendants of the inhabitants of those regions to return, and then the right to re-establish our historical and cultural patrimony, the creation of an economic entity and the restoration of the old Christian churches.

[Armenian]

Harmar khosker anvtangutyan nakharari koghmits:

Ազգային անվտանգության ռազմավարության նախագծի հիմքում ժողովրդի ֆիզիկական գոյության ապահովումն է: Այլ ժողովուրդների համար սա կարող է երկրորդական լինել, որովհետեւ չեմ կարծում, որ չինացիները կարող են մտածել իրենց ժողովրդի ֆիզիկական գոյությունը պահելու համար,-այսօր ԵՊՀ-ում հայտարարեց պաշտպանության նախարար Սերժ Սարգսյանը,- բայց մենք այս տարածքում մնացել ենք ընդամենը 3 միլիոն: Եվ մեզ համար ամենակարեւորը սա է: Իսկ վտանգը լինում է հիմնականում արտաքինից, ոչ թե ներքինիցՙ:

Նրա վերջին նախադասությունը պատասխան էր դասախոսներից մեկի դիտարկմանը, թե հայեցակարգում ավելի շատ տեղ հատկացված էր արտաքին, քան ներքին անվտանգության հարցերին:

http://www.a1plus.am/amu/?page=issue&iid=42869

[gmd]

The reality is that Armenia has a very "legal" claim to those lands in question. The lands were not given away by Armenians, they were given away by the Bolsheviks in 1921. Armenians never signed the agreement at the time between Moscow and Ankara. On paper, Armenians recognizes the 1918 'Wilsonian Armenia.' At the end of the First World War, Wilsonian Armenia was accepted by the international community as well, before the Bolsheviks came into the scene. However, now that Bolshevism is no more, Armenia can legally ask for the lands back.

The following article pertains this topic of discussion.

Thanks for the info. I think we do need to remember that back then any help did not extend beyond declaring what was ours but no one really did anything to help a massacred people.

[Armenian]

Thanks for the info. I think we do need to remember that back then any help did not extend beyond declaring what was ours but no one really did anything to help a massacred people.

My point is, when the 'time' is right and Armenian forces go west into historic Armenia we have both the 'legal' and 'moral' rights for those lands. The entire issue here, however, is 'timing.' In the meanwhile, we need to get closer to Russia and Iran. We need to entice the EU into making more investments into the Armenian Republic. We need to concentrate on improving our armed forces. And we need to help promote internal instibility within Turkey. Turkey will fall apart one day, we simply need to be ready for that day.

Like I said before, if we want a truly independent and prosperous nation, we need to expand our territorial holdings, we need to have free access to the sea, we need to have a potent military. We need to be a regional player - not a begger. That is the only way the international community will take us and our national interests seriously.

[gmd]

My point is, when the 'time' is right and Armenian forces go west into historic Armenia we have both the 'legal' and 'moral' rights for those lands. The entire issue here, however, is 'timing.' In the meanwhile, we need to get closer to Russia and Iran. We need to entice the EU into making more investments into the Armenian Republic. We need to concentrate on improving our armed forces. And we need to help promote internal instibility within Turkey. Turkey will fall apart one day, we simply need to be ready for that day.

Like I said before, if we want a truly independent and prosperous nation, we need to expand our territorial holdings, we need to have free access to the sea, we need to have a potent military. We need to be a regional player - not a begger. That is the only way the international community will take us and our national interests seriously.

Armenian, you should know you are preaching to the choir here. You have no disagreements from me on the importance of this.
I just think more Armenians need to wake up and see reality.

[Kamo]

thanks gmd for your response, its good to see not everyone is incapable of debating in a mature manner.

Just to come back on some of the points you've raised

My responses. Sorry for the delay I got called into a meeting.

By saying the RA has no legal claims to lands in Turkey you are showing a willingness to follow the present status quo of the world. This is wrong and ultimately anti-Armenian and pro-Globalist. It is not in the interests of any nation or people to succumb to a global leadership. The larger the organization (even democracies) the less democracy and freedom for individual or cultural minorities.

"The whole section on private individuals making claims to Turkey.... I cannot agree with this. Either way it is full of problems. If the plan is to do a "Zionist" type land grab like in Palestine, ok if you think Turkey will allow it. If not then what?"

- I meant this on an individual level, unlike israel, which is state sponsored. I dont think Turkey can do much about Armenians living in their land

"After the Genocide what self-respecting Armenian is going to live under Turkish rule. Plus adding the part about paying tax to Turkey just rubs me in the wrong way."

- Try Turkish Armenians who have lived in Turkey for centuriess...? why should these people leave their community and their culture?

"Should these people also swear loyalty to Turkey and call themselves Turks first and then Armenians?"

- I assume you america (forgive me if im wrong), are you first american, then Armenian?

"If you truly believe that the consequences of any conflict with Turkey will end in another attempt at Genocide against our people then there is not need for me to justify my aggressive and hostile attitude towards Turkey and my desire to work only at destabilizing their nation for the gain of Armenians."
- Even if we are to assume that we have a goal of some sort to stretch Armenia into todays Turkey, then this goal should succumb to all efforts to improve the lives of Armenians today who are dying earlier than they should, and leading miserable lives.

I personally dont share the aim of stretching west, but rather to increase the living standards of Armenians in Armenia.

"Armenia", your post was very immature, and i dont have the time to decipher your effort at wit to come back to your "points".

Concerning who sold the Western Armenians, i will come back with the treaty the dashnaks signed with the Turks. Also, it was the same Dashnaks who encouraged Armenians to support the Young Turks, the same ones who murdered, raped and tortured 1.5m armenians.

Also, you sum up your logic with your comment that you dont care about any of the ARmenian inhabitants of Turkey. I would find it remarkable, if you were not yet another Diasporan dreamer, living at the other end of the globe, who doesnt want to grasp reality.

Anyway, it is not my problem. If you do wish to debate, come up with fact, instead of farcical comments like:

"Jeez... I can't stand annoying 'students' like you."
- What, your doubting im a student? Or you doubt education or knowledge, probably the latter...

"Wow! You mean you had to go to a 'university' to come to this realization?"
- No, being there and living amongst Armenians brings me to these realisations. Also being at the last Armenia Diaspora Conference which discusses the sitaution of Armenia today with real fact, figures and observations also brings me to these conclusions.

[gmd]

- I meant this on an individual level, unlike israel, which is state sponsored. I dont think Turkey can do much about Armenians living in their land

Turkey did do something about Armenians living under their rule in the past. Turkey to this day continues to stifle minorities living under their rule. What makes you think Turks have changed so much? Turks are taught that Armenians massacred their people during WWI. What Armenian would leave the west and settle in our lands if it means living under Turkish rule?

- Try Turkish Armenians who have lived in Turkey for centuriess...? why should these people leave their community and their culture?

I do not understand how these people continue to live under Turkish rule. My maternal grandfather and his family were in Polis after the Genocide. They left and made their way back Soviet Armenia when they had the means.

- I assume you america (forgive me if im wrong), are you first american, then Armenian?
I was born in Yerevan. I grew up in America and have a life here. However, America does not need me to do anything to secure its freedom or survival. Armenia is the land of my fathers and it is where I intend to return to. I feel my stay in America cannot be permanent.

- Even if we are to assume that we have a goal of some sort to stretch Armenia into todays Turkey, then this goal should succumb to all efforts to improve the lives of Armenians today who are dying earlier than they should, and leading miserable lives.
Not necessarily. A first step in my opinion would be the development of a native defense industry. This would provide jobs and revenue for the state to reinvest in education and sciense. But all investment should be focused in developing Armenia's military industrial complex. Having a bunch of retail establishment who sell Turkish goods only weakens Armenia in the long run. Armenia needs to produce goods for its own consumption and for export. If they developed good weapons at reasonable prices there is a great world market for them. Would be no problems in selling them. Considering the terrain of Armenia and the emergence of 4th gen warfare then the investments should be in building infantry weapons with greater firepower.


I personally dont share the aim of stretching west, but rather to increase the living standards of Armenians in Armenia.

I do not agree with this. You are looking at the short term goals and not concidering the possibilites. Besides if Armenia improves economically and politically without building up its military ability then it would remain at the mercy of military posturing or attack from Turks from east or west.

[BARIŞ]

What Armenians hope for the future is quite encouraging.But I would like to state that there is a more and more growing concern in Turkey as to Armenians' plans.Recent incident in France has also awakened an attention towards Armenians,which will surely affect Turkey's mild attitude towards such issues.
When that day comes,not only the TSK but also people living in Turkey will be ready to show what being a patriot is.

[skhara]

I would like to state that there is a more and more growing concern in Turkey as to Armenians' plans.

That's understandable when a revenge-seeking body gains more power.
It also explain the desperate shouts, protests, and rampages by turks in western countries. :)

We'll get ya eventually ;).

[BARIŞ]

Turkey's unity of land is under NATO's protection.So today there may be no hopes of realization of Armenian's quasi land claims.
If Armenia's holy:) army considers attacking when there is no NATO thing,TSK could bear the same option without worrying about NATO.
Lesser countries like Armenia do not seem to have an millitary option then, but need to be pitied by powerful ones like France.What I advice Armenian's is that, rather than having self-confidence,they should seek ways to be seen as weaker creatures to the likes of France.
Recently,things have been getting harsher..

[Vagharshapat]

I am a Turk and in my opinion Western Armenia must be restored. Because it is the homeland of Armenians so it is their right to have it. As I believe in justice this must be done without a war. But Turkey will never accept this. So this is the duty of international courts to force Turkey to give these lands as a compensation. As I can see Eastern Anatolia is a dead place now, there's nothing, it is barren, people are migrating to west. If it belonged to Armenians it would be a very developed place right now, maybe Armenia would be in the EU. Armenians will revive there and build their country again with their skills, talent and hardworking. I think that at least the Ararat region, Kars, Van, Mush must be given to Armenia. There are 8-9 million Armenians in the world, they can all settle there. Maybe a sea port can be given in Artvin too. But without international intervention these cant be done. The big countries always neglect the Armenians and they always beyrayed them. Because they dont want to lose their big friend Turkey. But this must chang now, a public support must be gained all over the world. These are my opinions Armenian friends...

[BARIŞ]

I am a Turk and in my opinion Western Armenia must be restored. Because it is the homeland of Armenians so it is their right to have it. As I believe in justice this must be done without a war. But Turkey will never accept this. So this is the duty of international courts to force Turkey to give these lands as a compensation. As I can see Eastern Anatolia is a dead place now, there's nothing, it is barren, people are migrating to west. If it belonged to Armenians it would be a very developed place right now, maybe Armenia would be in the EU. Armenians will revive there and build their country again with their skills, talent and hardworking. I think that at least the Ararat region, Kars, Van, Mush must be given to Armenia. There are 8-9 million Armenians in the world, they can all settle there. Maybe a sea port can be given in Artvin too. But without international intervention these cant be done. The big countries always neglect the Armenians and they always beyrayed them. Because they dont want to lose their big friend Turkey. But this must chang now, a public support must be gained all over the world. These are my opinions Armenian friends...
Tell an Armenian that you are a Turk,then ask what he thinks of you without stating your holy(!) approach above.
And mention an Armenian your holy(!) intentions,then say that you are a Turk and ask what he thinks of you
There surely be a sharp difference between in reactions.

[Vagharshapat]

I myself think the same as the Armenians, "most of the Turks are stupid", like Aziz Nesin had said once. I myself find the Turkish community very hypocritical. They are unaware of the phrase "Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you". They have no sense of empathy. They always claim posession over everything and always consider themselves absolute right. They have a national arrogance. So they can not think properly and lose their sense of Truth. So losing the sense of Truth causes a national madness and hysteria. In my opinion the Turkish nation is suffering a mental sickness right now. I call it national paranoia and alienation. They feel so alone in the world and think that everybody in the world is the enemy of Turks. Everybody is a traitor in the world and only they are very right. There is a saying in Turkish; "There are no friends of Turks except for Turks". This is a very crippled way of thinking. You must think about this; The Greeks hate Turks, The Armenians hate Turks, The Bulgarians hate Turks, the Romanians hate Turks, the Kurds hate Turks, the Serbians hate Turks, the Iranians hate Turks, the Arabians hate Turks. A proper person must be able to ask himself; "Is there something wrong with me?" Maybe I am wrong? But Turks never ask these kind of questions. They dont settle accounts with themselves. They dont confront with their mistakes. They are always right. Actually I am very unpleasant to live in a sick minded community like this as this community is losing touch with the world community and humanity day by day. Also there is no freedom of speech in Turkey because if you express your opinions about the Turkish community they make you pay for this for the reason of "insulting the Turkishness". So in my opinion the country MUST question itself from the beginning to the end. There must be a revolution. But Turkish people never rise up for something. They must question how the Kurds were persecuted since 1923. How many thousands of people killed by the Republic in 1921-1925-1928-1937 Kurdish rebellions. What happened in Diyarbakır prisons? They couldnt even question the junta leader Kenan Evren. And we are still living with that 1982 constitution. There can never be democracy in Turkey because democracy is a way of thinking, a way of life, it is respect for freedom of thinking, freedom of speech. Turkish people have never adopted this way of thinking because they are familiar with dictating one's ideas by force, opressing people with intolerance. This is the way we do it in Turkey...

[tirvana]

I myself think the same as the Armenians, "most of the Turks are stupid", like Aziz Nesin had said once.
For that reason, turks had governed armenians for about 1000 years:D and for that reason, turks founded a world empire and had lands on three continents and for that reason, when Istanbul conquered by turks, chiristians were allowed to be free in their religion ( also now) and go to their chuches, for that reason,turks accepted the j e ws who escaped from Spain in 1492,for that reason turks beated five emperialist countries 90 years ago
If I was governed by another country for centuries. I couldn't put up with that, I would think the same as you. you re right...
And Let's look old Yugoslavia, 15 years ago 250.000 muslims massacred by serbians in the middle of Europe (modern Europe) and yugoslavia broken into pieces now, we see new countries there
Lets look, middle east which was governed by ottomans in peace for centuries. And then, Great Britain, France, Italy drew the borders of Iraq, Syria and other countries (and now America want to draw new borders once again in the middle east.)
And Lets look Palastine, j e ws had wanted ottomans to settle down the region of palastine in exchange of money in the past and rejected by Ottomans. but Great Britain allowed them and they were settled down day by day .And now "so called arabs who hate from turks" are killed everyday by Israil.

Yes you are right, turks are stupid, because they could have massacred all of the armenians in Anatolia easly instead of a deportation to Syria or Lebanon and because turkey is one of the countries who first recognize Armenian Republic, and because now there are 33 armenian churches just in Istanbul and because turkey forgot that 33 turk ammbassadors and their wifes were killed by armenians in some parts of the world in the past and because there is Armenian Patriarchate in Istanbul....etc
I agree with you...

[skhara]

15 years ago 250.000 muslims massacred by serbians in the middle of Europe (modern Europe) and yugoslavia broken into pieces now, we see new countries there

Wow! In the entire Balkan war the casualties didn't even add up to that. Poor "muslims". Get lost, as a matter of fact, the beastial sadism perpetrated by those "muslims" could only have been learned by your kind.

I'm sick of all the turkic invaders of this forum repeating the same exact bullxxxx.

[Armenian]

In related topic:

Armenia plans to occupy Abkhazia? Georgian intelligentsia accuses Armenians of genocide of Georgians

APA news agency (Baku) reports that 60 representatives of the Georgian intelligentsia have demanded that Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili recognize the genocide committed by Armenians in Georgia.

They say that in 1993, the “Bagramyan” military unit, together with Abkhazians, fought against the Georgian army and killed Georgians living in Abkhazia: “Before the Czar, Russia populated Georgian Javakheti with Armenians, there had been no single Armenian in that region. However, today Javakheti is mentioned as part of Armenia. Having ‘crippled’ the Georgian monuments in the territory of Javakheti, the Armenians are not trying to convince everybody that they are Armenian. All this is being done systematically, and so, must be recognized as a genocide against the Georgian nation.”

Member of the Supreme Council of Abkhazia in exile Akaky Gasviani supports this initiative and points out that the Armenians have a big role in the “occupation” of Georgian lands and the establishment of the separatist regime in Abkhazia.

The Golos Armenii daily publishes the abridged version of the article “What Is Armenia Plotting Against Georgia,” published in the Aisi daily (Georgia) (#36, Oct 3-9 2006). Golos Armenii says that the article tells how Armenians populated Abkhazia and Ajaria and what the atrocities the “Bagramyan” battalion committed during the war against the Georgians. "Journalist Gogneli quotes “some expert on Armenian problems” as saying:

“If anybody thinks that the Russians will appropriate Abkhazia, he is mistaken. Should they – God forbid — recognize Abkhazia as an independent, the Armenians will occupy this region in just one year. Today, they are silent and are just waiting for a good opportunity. But as soon as it happens, they will rise and appropriate this Georgian region. Today, they are trying to occupy Abkhazia’s sea coast — they are actively working in this direction. Then, they will ‘take care of’ Javakheti” and, finally, they will get access to the sea. This is a part of their “Great Armenia” plan. So, we, the Georgians, must be vigilant and wise. I wonder if our leadership is thinking about it?"

The Azg daily says that, neither in the Georgian mass media nor via its own sources in Georgia, has it managed to find anything that could prove the information of the Georgian daily. Asked by Azg to comment on the statement, Ambassador of Georgia to Armenia Revaz Gachechiladze said that he knows nothing about such a statement and, even if it was made, he, first of all, wants to know the names of its authors. “In any case, this is not the position of the Georgian Government.”

Link: http://www.regnum.ru/english/739111.html?forprint

[BARIŞ]

I'm sick of all the turkic invaders of this forum repeating the same exact bullxxxx.
But I thought that you holy Armenians were trying to have Turks accept quasi genocide. Holy Armenians then should tell Turks a reason why Turks should not deem what holy Armenians claim as a bullxxxx, if holy Armenians,who have been struggling for discussing their treachery with Turks, deem what 'the bad part' they did during their rebellion in 1915 as a bullxxxx

[tirvana]

Wow! In the entire Balkan war the casualties didn't even add up to that. Poor "muslims". Get lost, as a matter of fact, the beastial sadism perpetrated by those "muslims" could only have been learned by your kind.

It is very natural that you dont want to see mass graves come on the scene even today in Srebrenitsa . But at the same time you can say that so called 1,5 million armenians got lost in deserts. Somehow this huge number of people could get lost in deserts and in rivers :rolleyes: yes 1,5 million armenians. Maybe turks sent them into space, because we cant find them and their mass graves on the earth. or turks might have killed each of the armenians two times:D ,in this way we can reach this huge number :laugh: :laugh:

[ARK]

But I thought that you holy Armenians were trying to have Turks accept quasi genocide.

We don't need your recognition but your destruction. and if not the destruction, at least we "ask" you to pack up and get back to Ulan batur.

[Armenian]

ARF Shant Kickstarts Planning for Reunification of Western Armenia

Los Angeles, CA - On Sunday, December 3rd, about 150 college and high school students attended a Panel Discussion organized by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation Shant Student Association (ARF Shant) at Hollywood's Karapetian Hall. The topic of the panel discussion was the re-integration and re-development of the occupied Western Armenian territories after they have been returned by Turkey as a condition of Armenian Genociden recognition. The experts who participated in the panel discussion were political scientist and historian Garabet Moumdjian, Ph.D., economist and professor Ara Khanjian, Ph.D., and professional civil engineer Aram Kaloustian P.E.

The panel discussion was moderated by Levon Baronian, founder of the Confederation of All-Armenian Student Associations (All-ASA) and administrator of the ExecNet Armenian Network of Student Clubs (ExecNet). Before introducing the panelists, Mr. Baronian relayed that the ARF Shant organized this event because it believes that the time has come to take Hay Dat to the next level and begin planning for what comes after the imminent recognition of the Armenian Genocide. The panelists presented interesting facts about Western Armenia and discussed a broad range of issues pertaining to the challenges faced in repopulating and revitalizing the region.

Dr. Garabet Moumdjian presented a historical overview of the legitimate claims that Armenians have over the occupied regions and offered insight into the geopolitical questions of reunification. Dr. Ara Khanjian provided vital statistics on the region and offered analysis on its current economic and demographic realities, particularly as they relate to the remainder of Turkey and the Republic of Armenia. Mr. Aram Kaloustian spoke on a variety of infrastructural issues that must be considered, such as rapid construction of housing, securing sources of water and energy, and repairing transportation routes.

The audience submitted dozens of written questions during the discussion, after which the panelists read and answered as many of the questions as possible within the time allotted. On behalf of the ARF Shant, Mr. Baronian concluded the panel discussion by thanking the panelists and audience for making the revolutionary and ground-breaking event a great success. The mission of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation "Shant" Student Association (ARF Shant) is to bring a higher level of political and cultural awareness to Armenian students within American Universities and institutions of higher learning. The ARF Shant's goal is to work side by side with the Armenian Student Associations and other Armenian Student organizations to further the Armenian Cause.

Source:http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg171409.html

[Armenian]

ուզումեմ ձեր ուշադրութիւնը գրավել հետեւյալ հեռուստատեսային ծրագրին: http://www.ars1910.org/arsjavakhkclip.htm

Եթէ Թիֆլիսի քաղաքականությունը ներկայիս հոսանքով շարունակվի Վրաստանի գոյությունը, իբր պետութիւն, կարջ է լինելու: Ես անձամբ գիդեմ որ որոշ ազգային մարմիններ լուրջ գործողութիւններ են կատարվում Ջավախքում:

[Lucin]

Կովկասի պատասխանը կարող է լինել Աբխազիայի եւ Հարավային Օսեթիայի ճանաչուը

ԱՄՆ- ի հետախոզուտեան տնօրէնՄայքըլ Մաքքանէլը վտանգավոր քայլ է համարել Ռուսաստանի կողմից Վրաստանի չճանաչւած հանրապետութիւնների անկախաթեան հավանական ճանաչում ը:
« Կովկասում իրադարձուտիւնների ապագայ զարգացումը հավանաբար սերտօրէն կապված կը լինի այն բանի հետ թէ ինչ կարող է տեղի ունենալ այդ տարաձաշրջանի սահմաններից դուրս» , ասել է Մաքքանել ը օրերս ելութ ունենալով սենատի կողմից կայացա ծ ունկնդրումների ժամանակ:

«Եթէ կօսովօն այս տարի անկախութիւն ձեռք բերի, որ ը հավանական է թւում, Ռուսաստանը նախազգուշացրել է որ ինքը կարող է դրան պատասխանել Վրաստանի անջատակողական տարածաշրջանների ճանաչմամբ, որ ը վսանգաւոր քայլ կը լինի», ասել է ԱՄՆ-ի Ազգային հէտախոզութեան ղեկավարը:

[Armenian]

This is how I foresee the Turkish state falling apart eventually - from within. With Islam gaining popularity within mainstream Turkish society and Kurds gaining in strength its only a matter of time before the Republic of Turkey, as we know it, will cease to exist. Are we Armenians ready to exploit the situation when it occurs?

Turkey keen to attack Kurds in Iraq as Kurdish militant kills 8

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2007/06/01/Turkey372.jpg

Turkish foreign minister Monday defended his country's right to move into neighboring Iraq to destroy separatist bases there as eight soldiers died in the latest suicide bombing involving ethnic Kurds.

The suicide attack, which occurred at a Turkish checkpoint, killing at least eight soldiers and leaving six wounded, is the latest in a series of terrorist attacks allegedly carried out by Kurdish militants. "We respect Iraq's territorial integrity but we cannot tolerate terrorist activities near our borders and on our territory," Abdullah Gul told an Ankara news conference after a meeting with EU officials. The EU apparently has given tacit support for Turkey's plans for a large military operation in the Kurdish-populated northern part of Iraq against armed members of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK).

Speaking after their meeting with Gul, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, the German foreign minister, and Olli Rehn, the EU enlargement commissioner, neither condemned nor openly supported the plan. Renh said, however, that the EU was definitely on Turkey's side where counterterrorism was concerned. The Turkish military have said up to 3,500 PKK gunmen based in Iraq were poised to commit terrorist attacks in Turkey, which encouraged the government to draft a petition to the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, asking him to exert pressure on Baghdad over the PKK's presence in Iraqi Kurdistan.

The Turkish TV network NTV said the petition to be sent Monday would substantiate Ankara's claim that a military operation would be legal, citing Article 51 of the UN Charter on the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense by members. Last week Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan vowed to decide whether an operation would take place as soon as the military provided sufficient intelligence. "The ultimate decision on an operation is political. We will give consideration to whatever the military ask us to," he told Turkish media.

Amid the Turkish military buildup near the Iraqi border in past weeks, Iraqi President Jalal Talabani and Massoud Barzani, head of the Kurdish administration in northern Iraq, said Sunday the Turks had bombed Iraqi territory in one of several pinpoint raids against PKK gunmen, a claim neither confirmed nor rejected by the Turkish General Staff. Over 40,000 people have been killed in Turkey since 1984 when PKK started its fight for an ethnic Kurdish state in the southeast of the country. Its charismatic leader Abdullah Ocalan has been imprisoned since 1999 on charges of terrorism narrowly escaping the death penalty because the EU, whose membership Turkey is seeking, has long lobbied against capital punishment.

Since the 2003 U.S.-led overthrow of Saddam Hussein, Turkish separatist Kurds have received increasing, if unacknowledged, support from those living in the three neighboring provinces of oil-rich northern Iraq, whose population has sought autonomy from Baghdad and where local Peshmerga militia formally took over security functions from U.S. forces earlier this month. Ethnic Kurds have also been actively driving for autonomy in eastern parts of Syria. The borders between the three countries are still unsecured.

Source: http://en.rian.ru/world/20070604/66654908.html

US again warns Turkey against move into northern Iraq

Washington has repeatedly said it does not believe a cross border operation into northern Iraq will resolve the issue of PKK bases in the region.

The US has again warned Turkey not to send troops into northern Iraq to strike at bases operated by the terrorist group the PKK. The latest warning came on Sunday, with US Secretary of Defence Robert Gates saying Washington hoped Turkey would not take unilateral military action across the border into Iraq. Speaking in Singapore, where he was attending meetings with senior Asian officials, Gates said he understood and sympathised with Ankara over the attacks being staged by the PKK based in northern Iraq.

“The Turks have a genuine concern with Kurdish terrorism that takes place on Turkish soil,” Gates said. “So one can understand their frustration and unhappiness over this. Several hundred Turks lose their lives each year, and we have been working with the Turks to try to help them get control of this problem on Turkish soil.” The US has said it prefers Turkey to work with Iraq to try and combat the threat posed by the PKK in the region.

Source: http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/409962.asp

Gates warns Turkey not to invade Iraq

US Defense Secretary Robert Gates on Sunday cautioned Turkey against sending troops into northern Iraq, as it has threatened, to hunt down Kurdish rebels it accuses of carrying out terrorist raids inside Turkey.

"We hope there would not be a unilateral military action across the border into Iraq," Gates told a news conference after meetings here with Asian government officials. Turkey and Iraq were not represented. Gates said he sympathized with the Turks' concern about cross-border raids by Kurdish rebels. "The Turks have a genuine concern with Kurdish terrorism that takes place on Turkish soil," he said. "So one can understand their frustration and unhappiness over this. Several hundred Turks lose their lives each year, and we have been working with the Turks to try to help them get control of this problem on Turkish soil."

Tensions have heightened in recent weeks in northern Iraq as Turkey has built up its military forces on Iraq's border, a move clearly meant to pressure Iraq to rein in the rebels of the Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, separatists who launch raids into southeast Turkey's Kurdish region from hideouts in Iraq. Turkey's political and military leaders have been debating whether to try to root out those bases, and perhaps set up a buffer zone across the frontier as the Turkish army has done in the past. Turkey's military chief said Thursday the army was ready and only awaiting orders for a cross-border offensive.

Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki on Saturday urged Turkey not to stage a new incursion, saying his government will not allow the relatively peaceful area of northern Iraq to be turned into a battleground. Turks accuse Iraqi Kurds, who once fought alongside the Turkish soldiers against the PKK in Iraq, of supporting the separatist rebels and worry that the war in Iraq could lead to the country's disintegration and the creation of a Kurdish state in the north. At the Singapore news conference Gates was asked about a reported U.S. naval bombardment on Friday of terrorist targets in northern Somalia.

"That's possibly an ongoing operation," he said, adding that as a result he would not comment on it. Gates was in Singapore to attend an international security conference known as the Shangri-la Dialogue, where he reassured Asian nations that the United States remains committed to being a Pacific power and is not distracted by the Iraq war. He said he did not ask any Asian government representatives to make new commitments to help in Iraq, but he did discuss with them at length the prospect of providing more assistance in Afghanistan. He said some countries, which he did not name, told him they were open to considering new commitments in Afghanistan.

Source: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2007-06/03/content_886004.htm

[MYND]

This thread is really funny to read...I can really taste the anger aiganst ''the big bad evil turk'' from here! I can almost touch it, its so real!

But now, lets get to the point...
I am a Turk from Holland and i have Armenian friends here. We do a lot of things together with eachother like watching movies, playing poker, playing soccer etcetera. We spent a lot of time together, Turks and Armenians.We are friends and enjoy the good things in life. We are a living example that Turks and Armenians can get along. I just saw this forum and the bashing on Turks here is just so funny. All of the people doing so have probably not even met a Turkish person in real life.They just think we are pure evil.

U know how we do that?Being friends? We do not dig in the past but live here and now, and with our minds set to the future. We do not support or like what has happened in the past but we can let it go and embrace eachother as human beings. I was not living in 1915, nor where my armenian friends. Why should we hate eachother? I even see that we are very similar to eachother.

My point here is, stop living in the past and in WOI, start living here and now in peace! Turks will always say we did not commit genocide, and Armenians will always say u did. So whats the point in going on?

And off course u want to know my opinion about the things that happened in 1915? I can give u that and i can be short about it. The Ottomans at that time made a stupid move by ordering all armenians to leave the empire, but i dont think it can be labeled as genocide because they did not want to wipe out the Armenian race like Hitler wanted to do with the xxxs in WOII. In a pure and theoretical way, therefore u cannot label it as genocide. But there was more going on at that time..The Armenians collaborated with the Russians and stabbed the Ottomans in the back at a large scale.There where a lot of Armenian gangs that caused mayhem. They slaughtered whole Turkish villages and killed women and children. The turkish people therefore started to hate the Armenians as a people and as traitors to the empire and fear ruled them. The ottoman central regime was fighting war all over the place, in the east against the greek,french,brittish,australians, etc. Can u imagine how hard that is?? Just try... And therefore they ordered the Armenian people to get the hell out, just simply put.This was actually for their own protection because otherwise villagers would have lynched them all. While they where marching to the east and passed large cities the angry people lynched them and the few soldiers could not prevent that. There should have been more soldiers to protect them, i admit and more food/water. The ottomans had no food for their own soldiers at that time,let alone for the Armenians. And they needed the troops badly to save the motherland against the invadors. So the journey must have been rough.I wish they had made another dicision but eventually every people and race wants their own freedom and own borders. Dont blame u guys, but also dont blame us Turks for risking a shot at a mighty empire. The thing is, every empire will fall and with supressing people u will get nowhere.Everyone diserves their freedom. Thats what i think.

I like Armenians, Like Greeks etc but if they hate me then too bad for them. I will always reach my hand out at first.

Hope u can understand how a Turk things and place urself in my shoes. At the end of the day we are also just little human beings.

[Azad]

I even see that we are very similar to eachother.

Probably the reason you did because of your Armenian Grandmother was a rape victim of the turkic culture. And I say culture, sine today your are not a turk only the “Parasite” that is being carried Westwards to infect the rest of civility by the original turkic behavior. An Armenian that is in Holland today is there because of your grand parents Genocidal actions. That Armenian was content to be in Anatolia for a millennia ... in your case what are you doing in Holland? If you so dearly wanted Anatolia to be a turkic paradise at least you could have done something out of it, instead of your westwards destruction. I would be a shame to still call myself a turk in my next infective host called “Holland”.
Start calling yourself a Dutch for a change. What is it in that turkic “parasite” after traveling half way across the globe absorbing all kind of people it still identifies itself with the original behavioral “virus”?
I want you to stand in front of a mirror and say to yourself 20 times... "I am the product of a cultural rape". That might help you wake up. Maybe not.

[MYND]

Yeah parasite my assss
U see? If a nice approach does not work then its your losss
TURKIYE
TURKIYE
TURKIYE

[Armenian]

TURKIYE
TURKIYE
TURKIYE

How Turkish of you :laugh:

Why don't you now go and behead your Turkified Armenian friends... :wave:

You are typical of your barbaric kind. Talking to garbage like you is a waste of time.

For more comments about Turkish-Armenian relations please see the following thread: http://forum.armenianclub.com/showthread.php?t=4648

[Illuminator]

GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE Hope u can understand how a Turk things and place urself in my shoes. At the end of the day we are also just little human beings.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bishop Fabri of Vienna (1536–41)
"There are no crueller and more audacious villains under the heavens than the Turks who spare no age or sex and mercilessly cut down young and old alike and pluck unripe fruit from the wombs of mothers".

"Those who assist turkey...I say that they should be marked forever as a shame, a horror and a disgrace to mankind."
Signor Garrini,
Italian Consul-General
August 25, 1915

Voltaire

Voltaire refering to the brutal 500 year Ottoman occupation of Greece.

"I wish fervently that the Turkish barbarians be chased away immediately out of the country of Xenophon, Socrates, Plato, Sophocles and Euripides. If we wanted, it could be done soon but seven crusades of superstition have been undertaken and a crusade of honour will never take place. We know almost no city built by them; they let decay the most beautiful establishments of Antiquity, they reign over ruins."

"Grass Never Grows Where the Turkish Hoof Has Trod"

The National Geographics Magazine - November 1912


"The turk is so absolutely without a moral sense, so unutterably bestial in his
consideration of woman, so unthinkably vile and filthy in his personal habits, and so hopelessly degraded in his relations with his fellow man that the depth of his infamy is past all human credence.

The turk is not a human being. I do not call him a beast, because not one of God's dumb creatures could sink so low. The turk is a devil without a tail. And the educated, polished turk--the official who affects a knowledge of the French language and a veneering of Parisian manners--is the most unspeakable fiend of all.

In proof that this assertion is based on incontestable truth I challenge denial from any unprejudiced man who has known the turk thoroughly well for a quarter of a century."

William W. Howard
1896
An American Eyewitness to turk Savagery

"The Turks are a human cancer, a creeping agony in the flesh of the lands which they misgovern, rotting every fibre of life ... I am glad that the Turk is to be called to a final account for his long record of infamy against humanity."

From a speech by the British Prime Minister, D. Lloyd George, 10 November 1914, cited in H.W.V. Temperley (ed.), A History of the Peace Conference of Paris, Oxford 1969, VI, 24.

"What have the Turks ever contributed to culture, to art, or to any aspect of human progress that you can think of? They are a human cancer, a creeping agony in the flesh of the lands they misgovern, rotting every fibre of life. They have ruled over most of the countries which are the cradle of civilisation; these lands were once the most fruitful and the most abundant of the world; they were the granaries of the East and of the West alike. In turn, they have been governed by Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans-- all tyrants; but they left these countries prosperous and luxuriant. What about the Turk? He comes to these plenteous lands, and the thread of his blood-stained sandal scorches and withers life and fertility in whole territories. Every grain in thousands of square miles is shrivelled up. The sight of this Gorgon has turned bounteous plains and fields into stony deserts. The people he has subjected to his rule have for centuries been the victims of his indolence, incompetence, and lust, and now-- now that the great day of reckoning has come upon the nations-- I am glad that the Turk is to be called to a final account for his long record of infamy against humanity.

David Lloyd George - "Through Terror to Triumph" (1915)

Yes, they will indeed be called to a final account!

[KarotheGreat]

Illuminator nice qutos. I hope that they will learn what the world really think about them

[Selpak]

Illuminator nice qutos. I hope that they will learn what the world really think about them You will learn soon what we Turks really are.

Btw, Turks well know who David Llyod Geroge is. However he was one of the famous Turkish foe, he honours Atatürk many times. Illuminator can you find them?? "türkler hakkında söylenen sözler" (quotes about turks) http://www.google.com.tr/search?hl=tr&q=t%C3%BCrkler+hakk%C4%B1nda+s%C3%B6ylenen+s%C3%B6 zler&btnG=Ara&meta=lr%3D Thank you Karot and illu. I haven't know that others says so good words about Turks. Their words honours me.

I guess there should be more good quotes about Roms than Armenians. Am I wrong?

[Anoush]

Illuminator nice qutos. I hope that they will learn what the world really think about them

And this is what some famous people think of the Armenians:

"If the scriptures are rightly understood it was in Armenia that paradise was placed.... But whatever may have been their destiny and it has been bitter whatever it may be in future, their country must ever be one of the most interesting on the globe.... And perhaps their language only requires to be more studied to become more attractive. Armenian is the language to speak with God." Lord Byron


"In my district, there is a significant population of Armenian survivors and their families that showed heroic courage and a will to survive." Jerry Costello


"If Turkey is prepared to acknowledge the Armenian Genocide, then its leaders can proceed immediately to direct dialogue with its counterparts in Armenia to define a common vision for the future." Mark Foley


"Moreover, as the leadership of the House confirmed last year, the Administration remains opposed to a congressional resolution on the Armenian Genocide due to Turkish objections. This approach sends absolutely the wrong signal to Turkey and to the rest of the world." Patrick J. Kennedy

[Azad]

haven't know that others says so good words about Turks.

I agree with you. It is a first for me too.

[KarotheGreat]

do you know William Saroyan here's a good quote of his

I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race; this small tribe of unimportant people whose history is ended, whose wars have all been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, whose literature is unread, whose music is unheard, whose prayers are no longer uttered. Go ahead, destroy this race. Let us say that it is again 1915 there is war in the world. Destroy Armenia.
See if you can do it. Send them from their homes into the desert. Let them have neither bread nor water. Burn their houses and their churches. See if they will not live again. See if they will not laugh again. See if you can stop them from mocking the big ideas of the world.You sons of b.i.t.ches. Go ahead, try to destroy them.
The Armenian and the Armenian

[Selpak]

Go ahead, try to destroy them. He is confused guy. Someone should teach him who did try what?

[KarotheGreat]

I don't think he's confused at all. He survived the Armenian genocide and I think that he knew who tried to kill him and his family. But I have here a other quote of his. Enjoy


"I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people, whose history is ended, whose wars have been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, whose literature is unread, whose prayers are no longer answered.... For when two of them meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a new Armenia!

William Saroyan, 1935.


Karo

[Kuja]

I don't think he's confused at all. He survived the Armenian genocide and I think that he knew who tried to kill him and his family. But I have here a other quote of his. Enjoy


"I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people, whose history is ended, whose wars have been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, whose literature is unread, whose prayers are no longer answered.... For when two of them meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a new Armenia!

William Saroyan, 1935.


Karo

Keep your pride Karo.I wish that wouldnt include hatred towards Turks.

[melikianAvak]

You will learn soon what we Turks really are.

I guess there should be more good quotes about Roms than Armenians. Am I wrong?

What does that mean? It sounds like a threat, or is it positive?

[Selpak]

What does that mean? It sounds like a threat, or is it positive? Our relations are increasing in both ways, isn't it?

[Mos]

yes we need those lands, however with Karabakh and everything I dont see we even coming close to getting those lands in the near future

[ArmSurvival]

Armenian, in reference to your post about ARF Shant....

Why would someone have a conference discussing what should be done after Turkey "gives" our lands back. No country on the planet hands out land (this is wierd considering I knew Garabed Moumdjian, he was my principle). So instead, why isn't the conference dealing with the political/social conditions that must be present in order for Armenians to exert their influence in western Armenia? Wouldn't this make a lot more sense?

[KarotheGreat]

I don't know why the confrce wa held but we need to be ready to take our chance when it's there when there's a civil war or war then we need to attack and cripple them for ever so that they will never recover from it. And I don't believe that they will give our land back we need to take it back if we need to use a diplomatic way or by force let it than be



Karo

[Artsakh]

In theory, the idea of the Dashnaksutyun, along with its youth organization, is commendable, but ONLY as a diasporan organization. The role they play in slowing down assimilation is commendable. However, They have NO right to meddle in the internal affairs of the independent republic of Armenia.

Today they claim that although they are in government, they do not have total power and thus cannot be blamed for the current social-economic situation in the country. Instead, they call on the people to vote for them so that they have complete, absolute power, so that they can “stop corruption, increase the population of armenia to 4 million, raise pensions, and solve all the country's economic problems."

Needless to say, one only needs to look back at history to see how the dashnak leaders handle the situation when they have absolute power (i.e. the 1918 republic).

The Dashnaks can talk all they want about what “patriots” they are, they can come up with all the songs that they want, and they speak empty talk about returning to Armenia year after year. But the fact of the matter is, over the past years more than a million people left Armenia. That in itself is Genocide. Although Armenia is noticeably getting back on its feet, people are still leaving. Is this their sence of “patriotism”. Although I am not going to pretend I like the Turks, they dashnak policy that they advocate closed borders is ludicrous. If I am not mistaking, on a yearly basis Armenia looses 500 million due to the closed Turkish border. Even if an open border would only slightly benefit the people of Armenia and allow a few families who planned on leaving Armenia to remain on the land, then the border should be opened.

Does Greece not have territorial issues with the Turks? Does Syria not have territorial issues with the turks? So if the open border will benefit Armenia, even slightly, then the border should be open.

The fact of the matter is, when the time comes, and it will, when the geo-political situation in the world changes, and the big powers support us, Armenia will take advantage of the situation and solve the issue of our historic lands.

The land that we possess today, that so called “small” piece of land, which, in reality, is capable of supporting at least 20 million inhabitants, NEEDS A LOT OF WORK. Let us blossom what we have today, let us flower Armenia, so that when the time comes, we can do something about it. But how can we do something about it, when today we are loosing soldiers? Able bodied men, women are leaving the country? Look at Azerbaijan, their current population is 8 million, and their population is increasing year after year-they have a population growth, while we have a decline. Is that the dashnak patriotism? Do dashnaks think about that? Wait, they are too busy with preaching socialism, feminism, and globalism.

[ArmSurvival]

Artsakh, I agree with most of what you say. The part about Dashnaks only being good for the diaspora is true. In fact Dashnaks in the diaspora (at least in Los Angeles) do not like to do fundraisers or other charitable work with other Armenian organizations. They are very partisan, they want to do things on their own, and they refuse to do anything if it means they have to work with another Armenian organization. Believe me, my principle was a Dashnak who was "high up in the foodchain", so to speak, so I know very well what the mentality at the top is. Sometimes I imagine what Armenia would be like if it was ruled by the ARF, and all I can think of is a totalitarian government which does not tolerate anything except its own party.


I don't know why the confrce wa held but we need to be ready to take our chance when it's there when there's a civil war or war then we need to attack and cripple them for ever so that they will never recover from it. And I don't believe that they will give our land back we need to take it back if we need to use a diplomatic way or by force let it than be

I agree, but the ARF shouldn't waste their resources and time discussing what would happen if Turkey gives back our land. If our land returns it is going to be by force, and if thats the case, then the circumstances and situation will be completely different than if they simply handed the land to us. Everything from political realities, social issues to demographics can change if the land is taken by force as opposed to being handed to us. In my opinion a conference with such a premise is a waste of time, and it basically sums up the Dashnaktsutyun's unrealistic mentality in a nutshell. They rely too much on what other people do rather than their own actions. They think the superpowers are going to hand the land to us on a silver platter.


and they speak empty talk about returning to Armenia year after year.

LOL, its funny you should mention this, I don't know how many Dashnaks in the late 80's were saying they would move to Armenia immediately if it became independent. These same Dashanks still live in Glendale, Pasadena, Hollywood, helping to prove that ARF is only good as a diasporan organization.

[KarotheGreat]

If the diasporian dashnak party really wants to help Armenia let them move back there and youse their earnd money to a good use, if they don't do that why would anyone give them any power. And the confrens was a very stupid, why would anyone give back our lands we need to take it back. within a few years when I'm done with school and all I'm planning to return to Hayastan and live there and I hope many here will follow my example that why we can take back with us what we have learned outside of Hayastan a good use


Karo

[Armenian]

In theory, the idea of the Dashnaksutyun, along with its youth organization, is commendable, but ONLY as a diasporan organization...

Nice going again, Artsakh. Its obvious you have a serious metal impediment, a severe obsession, regarding Dashnaks - I don't think your condition can be explained in any other way. You always do this. You always start talking garbage and then apologize and say "hey I don't want Turks seeing this conversation..." Then you ask moderators to delete your posts, then you ask me to delete my posts, etc... This is getting very childish, Artsakh. Once again, you just threw kaka in my thread, and now its attracting flies. After all is said and done, the only "Armenian" political/social organization in existence within the Diaspora has been, is and will continue being the ARF. Now clear out your head and posts topics that have to do with Western Armenia.

[Artsakh]

Dear fellow Armenian, look at what policies the ARF is pursuing in Armenia. If you are not disgusted, i don't know what to say.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Yerkir.am
March 23, 2007

The Women’s Organization of Socialist International held its regional convention in Yerevan upon the invitation of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (ARF) Supreme Body’s Women’s Committee.

The regional convention covered the Eastern Mediterranean, the Middle East, the Caucasus, Central and Eastern Europe. Representatives of countries from this region discussed in Yerevan issues related to gender aspect of international migration.

Chairwoman of the Socialist International Pia Locatelli thanked ARF’s Women’s Committee represented by Maria Titizian. Stressing the ARF’s important role in creating a socialist society and empowering women, Locatelli noted in her opening remarks that Armenia is a transition country where Armenian women suffer from domestic violence, trafficking, and have to survive in very difficult conditions. The issue of women’s participation in politics is of special concern.

Locatelli stated that only 7 out of 131 members of the parliament are women. Only 19 out of 900 community heads are women, there is only one female minister, etc.

Armenian women participating in the convention learned that their rights are violated in what concerns healthcare services, reproduction, women in Armenia were presented to be victims. Despite this statement, Locatelli stated that the Socialist International would help us eliminate our traditions and conservative customs, and will help us bring up a new generation in which it will not be men who will be doing barbeque, carrying heavy weights and ruling the country.

Representative of ARF’s Supreme Body, National Assembly deputy Armen Rustamian welcomed the participants of the convention and stressed the importance of integration with European standards and protection of women’s rights.

‘We worship women as mothers, sisters, daughters but are not very happy about their presence and representation outside the family. We must eliminate this discrimination. Family is the cell of the society and the women’s role should be equally important in the family and in the public and political life.’ Rustamian said. He noted the topic of the convention is very important since Armenia is a country with a high rate of migration.

Socialist International unifies the women throughout the world.

Secretary General of the Socialist International’s Women’s organization Marlene Haas is visiting Armenia for the fourth time in the past five years. She has a good understanding of the overall situation in the country and the role of women.

Last year Haas participated in the conference organized by the ARF Supreme Body’s Women’s Committee. She spoke with appreciation of the education level of Armenian women. Haas believes that cooperation between women NGOs, political parties and authorities will gradually yield positive results and increase the number of women at all levels of decision making.

Haas presented a brief overview of the Socialist International, ‘The Socialist International is a non-governmental organization that is a member of the UN Council on Economic and Social Affairs and an associate member of the Council of Europe. Currently, SI has 148 member organizations. An international secretariat was formed in 1907 in Stuttgart by 58 delegates from European and other countries headed by Klara Tsetkin. SI has contributed to liberalization of women which in its turn resulted in a struggle for women’s rights.’

[Artsakh]

Despite this statement, Locatelli stated that the Socialist International would help us eliminate our traditions and conservative customs,

So lets me get this straight, at the ARF's invitation, socialist internationalists are going to help eliminiate our centuries old traditions and customs, those same customs that have kept us armenian through the centuries, those same customs that have kept armenian families strong and stable. hmm....

[Artsakh]

Now clear out your head and posts topics that have to do with Western Armenia.

Western Armenia will be liberated when the geo-political situation in the world changes. Let me put it this way, even if the Armenians don't care about their lands in Turkey, the Greeks sure as hell haven't forgotten about theirs. When the time is right, the Greeks won't pass up the opporunity, and I'm sure the Armenians will play a part in that plan, and attack from the other side. With an internal kurdish uprising, and Syrian forces attacking from the south (in pursuit of the realization of their greater syria), that's when the Armenian question will be solved. and you know what, it'll be the Armenians who live in armenia that'll be doing the fighting, and not you know who.

[Artsakh]

Artsakh, you are now sounding quite hetamnadz.

So let me get this straight, the morning after you get married are you going to hang your "stained" bedsheets so that your entire village can see that your bride was a virgin? Will you beat your wife senseless if she does not comply with your wishes or if she looks at another man? Will you force your children to work the field and wear sheep skins? Will you marry off your daughter at twelve years old to a man three times her age?

Grow up Artsakh, this matter has nothing to do with the ARF per say, there is allot in "traditions and customs" that needs to be changed. Our "centuries old traditions and customs" are nothing but regurgitated Islamic crap.

There is a big difference between national culture and social customs. What kept us Armenians was our unique language, our church, our faith, and the Armenian Genocide.

listen, dude. You are a party finatic and too romantically involved to see the truth. "O, the ARF can sign off Armenian Kars and Ardahan, but its ok, cuz they say they're nationalists." clear out your eyes and come to your sences. There is nothing wrong with the way women are treated in Armenia. I don't know what you were babbling in your previous statement. what the arf is trying to do, along with the socialist international, is tear apart the armenian family, and lead to the destruction of the armenian nation. This is why the ARF was founded and financed by world wide socialist zion-ists for, and that is the policy it is pursuing till this day. Moreover, if there are any changes of customs that needs to be done in Armenia, IT IS THE PEOPLE OF ARMENIA THAT MUST PURSUE IT, AND NOT FAT, THICK HEADED DASHNAKS FROM THEIR OVERSEAS MANSIONS. End of story!!!!!!

[Artsakh]

you wanna know what your spyurka hye dashnaks are busy with, go watch Azamat in the movie Borat.

[Armenian]

So lets me get this straight, at the ARF's invitation, socialist internationalists are going to help eliminiate our centuries old traditions and customs, those same customs that have kept us armenian through the centuries, those same customs that have kept armenian families strong and stable. hmm....

Artsakh, you are now sounding quite hetamnadz.

So let me get this straight, the morning after you get married are you going to hang your "stained" bedsheets so that your entire village can see that your bride was a virgin? Will you beat your wife senseless if she does not comply with your wishes or if she looks at another man? Will you force your children to work the field and wear sheep skins? Will you marry off your daughter at twelve years old to a man three times her age?

Grow up Artsakh, this matter has nothing to do with the ARF per say, there is allot in "traditions and customs" that needs to be changed. Our "centuries old traditions and customs" are nothing but regurgitated Islamic crap.

There is a big difference between national culture and social customs. What kept us Armenians was our unique language, our church, our faith, and the Armenian Genocide.

Western Armenia will be liberated when the geo-political situation in the world changes. Let me put it this way, even if the Armenians don't care about their lands in Turkey, the Greeks sure as hell haven't forgotten about theirs. When the time is right, the Greeks won't pass up the opporunity, and I'm sure the Armenians will play a part in that plan, and attack from the other side. With an internal kurdish uprising, and Syrian forces attacking from the south (in pursuit of the realization of their greater syria), that's when the Armenian question will be solved.

What you just wrote is essentially what this thread is all about. You would have seen this had you read the initial post without your anti-ARF mental disorder. Nonetheless, you must me on crack if you really think Greeks have not forgotten their lands. Greeks have long forgotten their land and have been asskissing Turks every chance they get. And from Cyprus to the Aegean sea Turks have been smacking Greeks around for the past several decades. Greeks can't even protect a bunch of barren Islands let alone wage war against Turkey. Turkey will fall apart someday due to its internal problems coupled with various geopolitical factors.

and you know what, it'll be the Armenians who live in armenia that'll be doing the fighting, and not you know who.

I have quite a few ARF friends who were in Artsakh during the war. I also know of many who died in the war. The fact remains, while every other Diasporan Armenian organization was crying for mercy at the feet of western powers in the late 80s and early 90s the ARF were amongst the first organization fighting on the ground in Artsakh. Today, as you talk nonsensical crap, the ARF is spearheading the movement in Javakhq. And I know of the Javakhq movement first hand.

I really think you have a serious "personal" issue regarding this topic. Your condition goes beyond political discussion and debate, what you have is definitely a mental problem.

[Artsakh]

Nonetheless, you must me on crack if you really think Greeks have not forgotten their lands. Greeks have long forgotten their land and have been asskissing Turks every chance they get. And from Cyprus to the Aegean sea Turks have been smacking Greeks around for the past several decades. Greeks can't even protect a bunch of barren Islands let alone wage war against Turkey. Turkey will fall apart someday due to its internal problems coupled with various geopolitical factors.


The Greek Government today is not pursuing an aggressive policy towards Turkey because if it does, it will accomplish noting but nothing, and it will be at the expense of the peace and economic well-being of its population. The job of any government is to first and foremost provide for its people. What is it going to accomplish by closing its border with turkey and pursuing an aggressive policy, except a detrimental effect to its economy and hurt its population? please, do tell me. therefore, for the time being, greece is pursuing a very healty, and correct policy. turkey is a huge market, a huge republic, with 70 million people. If you think that they will just disappear into thin air, you are sadly mistaken.

furthermore, no matter how "treasonous" the greek government is, the greek people have not forgotten about their lands. till this day, the greeks curse the turks. last, and quite simply, it is to the interest of any government to reign over more land. Therefore, if the opporunity arises, the greek government, no matter how "treasonous", will have no choice but to send in the troops, just like in the case of the "treasonous" levon der petrosayn, under whose rule Armenian forces liberated karabakh and the surrounding territories.

lastly, the greek government regularly speaks against the turks, and during the recent trip of the greek president to armenia he called on turks to accept their fault for the genocide. i don't know what "ass kissing" you are talking about.

[KarotheGreat]

Armenian is wright about the domestic voilants and about some traditions being Islamic and dose need to go. there is alot of domestic voilents in Armenia especely in the villages. And about the greek goverment they will never attack Turkey because they need the trade with them and they are in the EU. And both nations are NATO so there will be no war between them for many years to come

[sirius1234]

Armenian

No one believed that Armenians would be able to beat the Azeri enemy that was much larger and much beter eguipped. American Turkish relations are based upon political interests. When politics change so can their relationship. What's more, Turks in reality, have not been able to do much militarily against Kurds, who are just a bunch of disorganized disunited gaurillas.

Your comparisons are very poor... Azerbaidjan is a tiny nation of the size of Armenia, Tukey is 71 millions of people. As for Kurds, they're guerillas, not a real army, Turkey does not fight them as it would fight Armenians, Turkey is not going to bomb its own cities, slaying its own citizens. However, the same couldn't be told in case of war with Armenia, Turks would conquer it very easily as they did in the past, and as they conquered the whole South-Eastern Europe in a very easy and quick way.

Re-read the essey I wrote, I am not calling for a war against Turkey, I simply want us to be ready for the day when Turkey is weak and the political situation is right.

Turks are not weak, they have been able to control millions of Europeans who outnumbered them, for centuries, Greece and the rest of the Balkan peninsula were Ottoman for 6 centuries, until 1912.

Weak is a relative term, most of Turkey has not been occupied fo almost a millenium, for the time of the Seljuks and of the Ottomans, Turks enjoyed total independence, even the Western attempt to colonise Turkey after the Treaty of Sevres has miserably failed, as Turkish nationalists woke up and defeated the Western armies (Italy, Greece, the U.K, and France), driving them out of Anatolia, and taking all of the lands who were assignated to Greece and Armenia back. On the other hand, Armenians have never been independent for centuries, Armenians are independent since 1991 only, they were conquered by Romans, Byzantines and Iranians, Arabs, Mongols, Turks and Russians, and then Soviets.


What is so important about our lands?

The lands we want hold great sentimental value. That is where our genealogy began, it is where human civilization began, its where our martyred ancestors lie in unmarked graves. More importantly, the land belongs to us legally.

And you think that those lands are magically worthless in the eyes of their autochtonous Muslim people? It is also the ancestral lands of Muslim Turks and Kurds. Oh and, sorry to disapoint you, but the first human civilisation did not begin in Turkey, it started in the Arabian peninsula, in the Southern part of modern Iraq, at the time of the Sumerian ancestors of the Iraqi Arabs.

What about the Kurds?

The Kurds will have a nation they may want to move to in norther Iraq or the south of Van. Those who decide to remain in our historic lands will simply have to become Armenian citizens, just as they are Turkish citizens now. If they decide to give us a hard time, then they simply have to pack and leave as well, its no big deal. In times of geo-political chaos, these things occur naturally. Israel has been able to displace close to a million Lebanese in two shot weeks. The Artsakh army was able to do the same with Azeris in 1993. The Kurds are quite disorganized and disunited, therefore Armenians need not worry much about them as a military/politcal factor.

And how many Armenians suffered from this Lebanese exile? 4% of Lebanon's population are Armenians, tens of thousands of them live in Palestine as well, in Syria and Jordan too, all of them are descending of the Anatolian refugees of the 1910's. Should them be expelled from Arab lands? After all, they're only guests (hiden and saved by Arab families, from Ottoman persecutions), not indigenous people of the Arab World, unlike Kurds and Turks in Anatolia.

So, "Western Armenia" belongs to people of modern Armenia, and not to its Kurdish and Turkish inhabitants? Muslims are indigenous to this area and have inhabited it for millenia, they constitute the vast majority of its population and do not want to be a part of Armenia. But you can still dream about a powerful Armenian military which would conquer Turkey to realise your senseless dreams, considering the extreme weakness of Armenia, it seems like it is just a fantasy.

[ArmSurvival]

Your comparisons are very poor... Azerbaidjan is a tiny nation of the size of Armenia, Tukey is 71 millions of people. As for Kurds, they're guerillas, not a real army, Turkey does not fight them as it would fight Armenians, Turkey is not going to bomb its own cities, slaying its own citizens.

Actually Azerbaijan wasn't fighting against the Republic of Armenia, it was fighting against Armenians from Karabakh, which today number at just under 140,000 people. A guerilla force from a population of 140,000 utterly defeated an army from a nation of over 8 million (Azerbaijan). And about Turkey slaying its own citizens... it has not shown any reluctance nor have they hesitated when it comes to this aspect of internal affairs. No offense, but open up a history book.


Turks would conquer it very easily as they did in the past, and as they conquered the whole South-Eastern Europe in a very easy and quick way.

Are you joking? Turkey cannot even defeat guerillas within their own borders after 3 decades of fighting. If Turkey attacks Armenia they can destroy the country with their Nintendo pilots, but they cannot successfully occupy the land. Armenians thrive when they use guerilla tactics (look at the Karabakh war), and guerilla warfare seems to be the one weakness with the Turkish army, considering their domestic situation.


And you think that those lands are magically worthless in the eyes of their autochtonous Muslim people? It is also the ancestral lands of Muslim Turks and Kurds.

East Anatolia never formed a part of the Turkish homeland. This region, if you have read up on Armenian history, was full of revolts and resistances from before Christ, all throughout the Turkic invasions, and even in the last century. East Anatolia was only kept by force and by the deportation of native populations, and it was not part of the Turkish homeland. The Turkish homeland is central and western Anatolia, where there were no major revolts throughout their rule, and where the population had more or less assimilated into a cohesive unit, unlike the case in east Anatolia. Armenians have been building civilizations in East Anatolia since at least the 6th century B.C., up until WWI.

[sirius1234]

Armsurvival

Today the Republic of Armenia's army is occupying those areas in Azerbaidjan, not Armenian guerillas.

Also, I suggest you to grab a history book as well, all countries have once slayed their citizens on political purposes, it doesn't mean Turks are going to slay their own people to defeat some Turkish guerillas. Guerillas are not armies, they're resisting civilians, and are hard to catch, unlike troops who may be mass bombed... Turkey is the second army of NATO, don't ever pretend Turks would have difficulties to conquer such a tiny and poor country as Armenia, when they already conquered dozens of nations in South-Eastern Europe and occupied their lands for centuries, Greece, Georgia, Macedoine, Bulgaria, Romania, Bosnia, Serbia, Albania, Montenegro, Hungary, Moldova, and parts of Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, and Russia. Not to mention the victory over the Mameluks, and then the occupation of Arab lands at the same time, Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Kuwait, and parts of Saudi Arabia and Yemen.

Finally, Eastern Anatolia is today also inhabited by indigenous Kurds, that the person called Armenian calls to expell. This area was inhabited by Kurds, Arabs, Persians, and by the ancestors of today Anatolian Kurds, for millenia. Turkey is a recent concept, it exists since 1923, it does not mean the forfathers of the Turks emerged only in the 20th century... their Hittite ancestors lived in Eastern Anatolia long before the first Armenian entity ever existed. Also, this land was a part of Arab-Semitic empires of Assyria and Babylonia, long before Armenia ever existed as well... so by this logic it would mean those lands are for the Semites of the area, Arabs... not Armenians.

Of course many Armenians lived there and were ethnic cleansed from their lands, but there were also Turkish populations living there with Armenians for millenia, those lands were not more Armenian than Turkish-Kurdish.

All those senseless claims about Eastern Turkey don't surprise me after all, the Armenian delegation of 1920 even claimed parts of the Arab Homeland for its new state...

[ArmSurvival]

Today the Republic of Armenia's army is occupying those areas in Azerbaidjan, not Armenian guerillas.

No, thats false. The ROA doesn't have a single soldier in Karabakh, the region has its own army made up of people who live within Karabakh's borders.



Also, I suggest you to grab a history book as well, all countries have once slayed their citizens on political purposes, it doesn't mean Turks are going to slay their own people to defeat some Turkish guerillas. Guerillas are not armies, they're resisting civilians, and are hard to catch, unlike troops who may be mass bombed...

I know that guerillas are different from conventional armies, but the point is, Armenians fight guerilla wars, while Turkish troops have a hard time dealing with guerillas (look at the Kurdish problem for the last 30 years).



Turkey is the second army of NATO, don't ever pretend Turks would have difficulties to conquer such a tiny and poor country as Armenia, when they already conquered dozens of nations in South-Eastern Europe and occupied their lands for centuries, Greece, Georgia, Macedoine, Bulgaria, Romania, Bosnia, Serbia, Albania, Montenegro, Hungary, Moldova, and parts of Austria, Croatia, Ukraine, and Russia. Not to mention the victory over the Mameluks, and then the occupation of Arab lands at the same time, Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Kuwait, and parts of Saudi Arabia and Yemen.

Great, a bunch of military victories that took place centuries before the Republic of Turkey was even founded. I can start naming Armenian victories over Hellenic armies, Persian armies, Roman armies, etc, but it has nothing to do with the present-day.



Turkey is a recent concept, it exists since 1923, it does not mean the forfathers of the Turks emerged only in the 20th century... their Hittite ancestors lived in Eastern Anatolia long before the first Armenian entity ever existed.

Hittites are not the ancestors of Turks, there is not a single credible historian who would claim that. Even Turks consider themselves as descendents of those nomadic tribes which travelled from central Asia to Anatolia (namely the Oghuz Turks). I hope you see the paradox in claiming that Turks' ancestors were nomads in central Asia AND a sedentary civilization in Anatolia, especially when these two peoples did not have any contact with one another.



Also, this land was a part of Arab-Semitic empires of Assyria and Babylonia, long before Armenia ever existed as well... so by this logic it would mean those lands are for the Semites of the area, Arabs... not Armenians.

The term "Arab" does not refer to Babylonians and Assyrians. Just because they are semetic doesn't mean they are Arabs... unless you mean to say that J-e-ws are Arabs too.



Of course many Armenians lived there and were ethnic cleansed from their lands, but there were also Turkish populations living there with Armenians for millenia, those lands were not more Armenian than Turkish-Kurdish.

I know Armenians also lived on those lands with other peoples. But study this region at any period in history and you'll see that this region was either part of independent Armenian states, or were autonomous Armenian districts within major empires. It can be traced from at least the 6th century B.C. with the Yervanduni dynasty (585 B.C.-200 B.C.), Artashesian dynasty (190 B.C.- 2 A.D.), Arshakuni dynasty (66-428), even during Persian domination they had local Marz, or rulers (428-640), under the Arabs they had their own local princes and the highland was called 'Arminiya' (640-884), Bagratuni dynasty (884-1045), Armenian Cilician Kingdom (1080-1375), and even under Ottoman, Safavid and Russian domination, the term Greater Armenia (or similar related terms like 'Ottoman Armenia' or 'Russian Armenia') were used to describe the highland and its peoples.

This is not the case with central or western Anatolia, where there were no Armenian entities (either independent or under a foreign yoke), and where there was no major revolts against Turkish rule for centuries. That is why central and western Anatolia are part of the Turkish homeland, while east Anatolia has demographically, politically and culturally been seperate from the Turkish yoke.

As I said, you need to study Armenian history in order to know these details.

[sirius1234]

Armsurvival

By your logic, the so-called Armenian accomplishments of the Ancient political entities that took place in today Armenia, are not to be attributed to Armenia...

The term Arab reffers to the Arab peoples, who descend from the Berbers, Ancient Egyptians, African Sudanese, Canaanites-Phoenicians, people of the Arabian Peninsula, and Mesopotamians. Well, it is a historical fact that Iraqi and Syrian Arabs are the descendents of Assyro-Babylonians. Moreover, Semites originated from Arabia, Assyro-Babylonians, who owned Eastern Anatolia, were of Arabian origin.

Hebrews (not J-ews, who are people following the religion Judaism, and are mostly of White ancestry, not Middle-Eastern Semites) were the Ancient Israelites, who were themselves Judaised Arab Canaanites, and then became Christianised-Hellenised Palestinians, who mass converted to Islam following the Muslim expulsion of European byzantine occupiers.

By the way, even in the Bible, Saudi Arabs are a Hebrew Tribe called the Ishmaelites, descending of prophete Abraham, who was an Aramean immigrant from Chaldea (Southern Iraq) who settled in Canaan, today known as Palestine.

No, thats false. The ROA doesn't have a single soldier in Karabakh, the region has its own army made up of people who live within Karabakh's borders.

The CIA World Fact Book says:

"Armenia supports ethnic Armenian secessionists in Nagorno-Karabakh and since the early 1990s, has militarily occupied 16% of Azerbaijan - Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) continues to mediate dispute; over 800,000 mostly ethnic Azerbaijanis were driven from the occupied lands and Armenia; about 230,000 ethnic Armenians were driven from their homes in Azerbaijan into Armenia; Azerbaijan seeks transit route through Armenia to connect to Naxcivan exclave; border with Turkey remains closed over Nagorno-Karabakh dispute; ethnic Armenian groups in Javakheti region of Georgia seek greater autonomy; Armenians continue to emigrate, primarily to Russia, seeking employment."

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/am.html#Issues

Great, a bunch of military victories that took place centuries before the Republic of Turkey was even founded. I can start naming Armenian victories over Hellenic armies, Persian armies, Roman armies, etc, but it has nothing to do with the present-day.

Well, the Turkish nationalists who founded Turkey in 1923, have been able to defeat the Greeks, the Italians, the French, the Armenians, and the Brits, at the same time, driving them out of Anatolia and Eastern Thrace, taking back all of the occupied lands and imposing the new Treaty of Lausanne on the Allies. Turks also captured Northern Cyprus in the 70's.

Of course Armenians can fight guerilla wars like everyone on earth, but they would be still occupied and under foreign domination, they would kill a few of soldiers but many of their civilians would be killed by Turkish bombings, or even massacres, I really doubt Armenia can face Turkey at war, even Greece, which is much bigger and richer, is scared to engage in war about its territorial conflicts with Turkey.

Hittites are not the ancestors of Turks, there is not a single credible historian who would claim that. Even Turks consider themselves as descendents of those nomadic tribes which travelled from central Asia to Anatolia (namely the Oghuz Turks). I hope you see the paradox in claiming that your ancestors were nomads in central Asia AND a sedentary civilization in Anatolia, especially when these two peoples did not have any contact with one another.

Oh yes they are, and there is no paradox to have a few ancestors from Central Asia, and Europe, while being ethnically Anatolian in majority. The vast majority of Maghrebis identify as Arab people and are a part of the Arab World for more than 1 millenia and 3 centuries, they are Berber in term of race though. You say there is no credible historian who would tell Turks are descendents of the Hittites, although most scholars state that Central Asian element is minor in Turkish people, they're mostly descendents of indigenous Anatolians who lived there for millenia, and long before Armenia ever existed.

Cilicia included parts of the Arab Homeland, it is not Historical Armenia, it was created after the Arab occupation of Armenia. The oldest trace of Armenia you listed is 580 B.C, well, Semites owned those lands more than 1500 years before... like Armenians owned those lands only 1500 years before "invading Turks who came in the 1000's". So, you're not more indigenous than them, Semites were there first according to this logic, and modern represents of Akkadian, Assyrian and Babylonian Semites, are the Iraqi, Palestinian, Lebanese, and Syrian Arabs.

Encyclopaedia Of the Orient, edited by Norwegian and American specialists of the Middle-East and North-Africa


"Turks : the Turks are a mixture of the indigenous population belonging to the region since millennias, the Turk-Tatarians immigrating from 11th century and the two following centuries. In the centuries following this immigration, people came from all over the Mediterranean world, as well as from Caucasia."

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/turks.htm


This Greek website, about Anthroology, says Turks are mostly Anatolian in term of race, not Central Asian:

"The Anatolians are the ethnic descendants of both the indigenous populations of Asia Minor who converted to Islam (and were thus spared from the genocidal campaign of the Ottomans and Kemalists during the early 20th century), and also of non-indigenous populations from the Balkans, the Middle East, and Central Asia. From Central Asia came the Turks, who were the main agent for the Islamization and during the last century Turkification of Asia Minor."

"Using the figure of 38.5%, the paternal contribution of Turks to the Anatolian population is estimated to about 11%. In lieu of the approximation, allowing for 33% relative error in either direction for both the true frequency of Mongoloid lineages in Anatolia and in early Turks, we obtain a range of 6-22%. It would thus appear that the Turkish element is a minority one in the composition of the Anatolians, but it is by no means negligible."

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/02/how-turkish-are-anatolians.html

Armenians have Turkish, Iranian, Russian, Arab, and many other allien genes as well, it doesn't make them invaders.This is not the case with central or western Anatolia, where there were no Armenian entities (either independent or under a foreign yoke), and where there was no major revolts against Turkish rule for centuries. That is why central and western Anatolia are part of the Turkish homeland, while east Anatolia has demographically, politically and culturally been seperate from the Turkish yoke.

As I said, you need to study Armenian history in order to know these details.

But, when Ottomans ethnic cleased this area, it was already populed by a large Turkish-Kurdish population of Muslim faith, not only Armenians. That is why Mustafa Kemal took those lands back, he fought for the lands inhabited by a majority of Turkish people.

For example, today the area of Van is a Kurdish region, and Kurds are not even Turkic speakers, they're Indigenous Indo-European speaking people like Armenians.

http://www.juedisches-archiv-chfrank.de/kehilot/turkei/kurd-map.jpg

I did study Armenia, don't worry.

[skhara]

Armos, I make a plea with you not to engage in conversation with turds -- let them crap and go.

[ArmSurvival]

By your logic, the so-called Armenian accomplishments of the Ancient political entities that took place in today Armenia, are not to be attributed to Armenia...

How? I just named all the instances where an Armenian entity existed throughout history, even while foreign empires occupied it, and you simply disregard it.


Hebrews (not J-ews, who are people following the religion Judaism, and are mostly of White ancestry, not Middle-Eastern Semites)

White ancestry? LMAO.... where are you pulling these terms out of? There is no such term as "white ancestry" outside Neo-Nazi circles. And for your information, Hebrew is a semetic language, and Israel is located in today's middle east.


The CIA World Fact Book says:

"Armenia supports ethnic Armenian secessionists in Nagorno-Karabakh and since the early 1990s, has militarily occupied 16% of Azerbaijan - Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) continues to mediate dispute; over 800,000 mostly ethnic Azerbaijanis were driven from the occupied lands and Armenia; about 230,000 ethnic Armenians were driven from their homes in Azerbaijan into Armenia; Azerbaijan seeks transit route through Armenia to connect to Naxcivan exclave; border with Turkey remains closed over Nagorno-Karabakh dispute; ethnic Armenian groups in Javakheti region of Georgia seek greater autonomy; Armenians continue to emigrate, primarily to Russia, seeking employment."

Armenia gave limited petrol and electrical support to Karabakh, but this does not mean that ROA has troops stationed there. Your source even claims that it was a secessionist force, meaning that it was from within Azerbaijan, not from Armenia. Look at your own sources more carefully.


You say there is no credible historian who would tell Turks are descendents of the Hittites, although most scholars state that Central Asian element is minor in Turkish people, they're mostly descendents of indigenous Anatolians who lived there for millenia, and long before Armenia ever existed.

I am not denying that "Hittite genes" are present in Turkey today, but this does not mean they are the same people. Turkish and Hittite culture are markedly different and have no continuous connection to one another, considering the Hittites, as a civilization, died out centuries before Turks appeared there.


Cilicia included parts of the Arab Homeland, it is not Historical Armenia, it was created after the Arab occupation of Armenia. The oldest trace of Armenia you listed is 580 B.C, well, Semites owned those lands more than 1500 years before... like Armenians owned those lands only 1500 years before "invading Turks who came in the 1000's". So, you're not more indigenous than them, Semites were there first according to this logic, and modern represents of Akkadian, Assyrian and Babylonian Semites, are the Iraqi, Palestinian, Lebanese, and Syrian Arabs.

Semite is a term which includes different groups, from Arabs to Assyrians to xxxs, and is also a language group. You cannot compare a designation like this to Armenians, who are one group within the Indo-European family. You can compare Semites to Indo-Europeans, but it is wrong to compare a vast group such as Semites to a single people such as Armenians. By your logic, Armenians can claim India since both peoples are Indo-European. This logic is very inaccurate.


Seeing as you use terms like "white race", and comparing language groups to single peoples, there is no point in having a discussion with you. I have nothing against you, but I'm not going to waste my time with this.

[sirius1234]

Armos, I make a plea with you not to engage in conversation with turds -- let them crap and go.

How courageous, is that an other way to say you're inarticulate and have nothing productive to say?

[KarotheGreat]

Sirius1234 do you really think that Turkey could occupaie Armenia :laugh:
Even the US said would have trouble to win a war in Armenia so do you really think that the Turkish Army is stronger than the US army. and about the claime that Armenians livedthere from 6CBC is also wrong you are frogeting about the Uratu kingdom and the other tribes that lived there. And the turks are not decendets of the hittites but are a ural-mongolic tribe


Karo

[sirius1234]

Armsurvival

Semite is a term which includes different groups, from Arabs to Assyrians to xxxs

You're mistaken in part, Semites were the Ancient Arabs and their Northern counterparts, who were themselves of Arabian origin and migrated to Mesopotamia, Palestine and the Oriental offshore of Mediterranea, as early as 3500 B.C, 5500 years ago. Most Semites then adopted the Aramaic language, and then the Modern Arabic civilisation following the Muslim expulsion of the European Byzantine occupiers and their Sassanid Iranian rivals. Modern Arabs are the descendents of those people, who are linked to them in term of race, Semitic language-culture-religion, and in term of Middle-Eastern civilisation.

and is also a language group. You cannot compare a designation like this to Armenians, who are one group within the Indo-European family.

Armenian itself is a language family as well, not only a single language... you claim Armenians descend of people who spoke different languages and dialects in the past as the language of Modern Armenia, so the same can told for modern Arabic, which is derivated from the Aramaic language, the tongue spoken by Semites prior to the Islamic period (unlike Ancient primitive Arabic languages, aka Southern Arabic languages, who were not derivated from Aramaic).

You can compare Semites to Indo-Europeans, but it is wrong to compare a vast group such as Semites to a single people such as Armenians. By your logic, Armenians can claim India since both peoples are Indo-European. This logic is very inaccurate.

This is not my logic, Indians are not the ancestors of Armenians, are they? You didn't get my point, about the modern Arabic speakers being the descendents of Ancient Semites.



Arabs:

People living in North Africa and the Middle East, from western Morocco to Oman, and from Turkey in the north to Yemen and Sudan in the south.

The Arabic heartland is Hijaz (now western Saudi Arabia) and Yemen. Around the year 610 CE, the birth year of Islam, this was a trade area along caravan routes, where the town of Mecca was one of the central towns. People came to Hijaz from Africa, from Mesopotamia, from Phoenicia, and from Egypt. The little evidence we have suggests that the Arabs in this era were not a pure race because intermarriage and the freedom of Arab women to choose their own bed mates created a diverse society.

Arab identity would spread with with the advances of Islam. Although Arabs originating from the Arab heartland at some time emigrated into all the new territories which today have a population defined as "Arabs," these territories were already peopled by a population far larger than the immigrants. For a number of reasons, however, Arab lifestyles, Arab identity and Arabic language would come to replace the original lifestyles, identities and languages.

Arabs would come to have some influence to the race, but in most cases the Arab peoples living in lands originally non-Arab, represent about the same racial composition as before the Arabization.

Hence the former Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Phoenicians, Canaanites, (most of the) Berbers etc. are still there, but they have simply changed their identities.






Mesopotamia is Iraq, and Mesopotamians are the Iraqis, those who controlled
Armenia for centuries before Armenia ever existed...

I am not denying that "Hittite genes" are present in Turkey today

You just did though, you changed your opinion in a quick way...

but this does not mean they are the same people.

Yes it does, they're the same racially and they're culturally Middle-Easterners like their ancestors.

Turkish and Hittite culture are markedly different and have no continuous connection to one another, considering the Hittites, as a civilization, died out centuries before Turks appeared there.


Well, Ancient Armenians had a different alphabet, a different religion, a different dialect, a different primitive culture, their geographical location was much different and they didn't live in Modern Republic of Armenia, they were under monarchies. You can't have it both ways... Armenia has never been an independent state for most of its history, it always belonged to other political entities, such as Iraq, Iran, Russia, USSR, and Turkey.

How? I just named all the instances where an Armenian entity existed throughout history, even while foreign empires occupied it, and you simply disregard it.

The answer is above, those monarchies were not the Modern Republic of Armenia.

Note that culture and language are not criterias of indigenousness, otherwise all Americans and Indians would be of Germanic descent, which seems very strange for people of India and for tens of millions of Germanic speakers from the USA, who are racially African, not Scandinavian.

So, do you mean Turks have to leave simply because they changed their languages, just like the whole planet's nations did? Do the Latin Speaking French have to leave their country simply because they were Latinised and Romanised by their conquerants, their ancestors being Celtic speakers of Gaulish descent, not French (from the Germanic Frankish invaders, -Franks-) ?

Children of immigrating people who are of different nationalities and speak different languages, still can inherit from their parents and even grandparents wealth, plain and simple. Conclusion, the same blood runs through their veins, and they own their forfathers lands.

I find it very immature and senseless that so many people try to deny Turks their indigenousness, those people do exactly what they complain about, it is childish.

Armenia gave limited petrol and electrical support to Karabakh, but this does not mean that ROA has troops stationed there. Your source even claims that it was a secessionist force, meaning that it was from within Azerbaijan, not from Armenia. Look at your own sources more carefully.


Do not try to confuse, the source clearly states Armenia occupies 16% of the country, not Armenian forces...

"Armenia supports ethnic Armenian secessionists in Nagorno-Karabakh and since the early 1990s, has militarily occupied 16% of Azerbaijan."

If it reffered to the secessionists the term would be "have".

And for your information, Hebrew is a semetic language, and Israel is located in today's middle east.

Hebrew was not spoken by israelis before 1948 and the etablishment of their colony in Palestine, israelis used to be European and African speaking people. The USA is located in Americas, most of its inhabitants are allien to the continent though, they came from Europe and stole it from the Indians, so what's your point?

israel still doesn't recognise the Armenian genocide by the way.

White ancestry? LMAO.... where are you pulling these terms out of? There is no such term as "white ancestry" outside Neo-Nazi circles.

What was the "LMAO" for? White is a term for people who trace their ancestry to Europe, but since you're an Asian from Armenia, it isn't surprising you ignore this common knowledge.

The point was israel was founded by Ashkenazi J-ews (85% of the World's J-ewish population), who are mostly of European stock, not Middle-Easterners. They are recent illegal J-ewish immigrants came from Europe in the 20'th century and after Holocaust, then they mass imported millions of J-ews from Europe, America, Africa and Asia, to repopulate the country they stole and emptied of its original Palestinian population after the ethnic cleansing of 1948.




History and Ethnic groups of israel according to the US Department of State:

"The creation of the State of Israel in 1948 was preceded by more than 50 years of efforts to establish a sovereign nation as a homeland for J-ews. These efforts were initiated by Theodore Herzl, founder of the Zionist movement, and were given added impetus by the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which asserted the British Government's support for the creation of a J-ewish homeland in Palestine."

"With a population drawn from more than 100 countries on 5 continents, Israeli society is rich in cultural diversity and artistic creativity."

"Since 1989, nearly a million immigrants from the former Soviet Union have arrived in Israel, making this the largest wave of immigration since independence. In addition, almost 50,000 members of the Ethiopian J-ewish community have immigrated to Israel, 14,000 of them during the dramatic May 1991 Operation Solomon airlift. 35.3% of Israelis were born outside of Israel.

"The three broad J-ewish groupings are the Ashkenazim, or J-ews who trace their ancestry to western, central, and eastern Europe; the Sephardim, who trace their origin to Spain, Portugal, southern Europe, and North Africa; and Eastern or Oriental J-ews, who descend from ancient communities in Islamic lands."

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3581.htm#people


Seeing as you use terms like "white race", and comparing language groups to single peoples, there is no point in having a discussion with you. I have nothing against you, but I'm not going to waste my time with this.

I never used the term of "White race", it seems like you didn't read well, so no wonder why you didn't understand the meaning of my sentences...

Where are you from? As I just said, the term White is commonly used in Europe and in the West to reffer to a person of European ancestry, there's nothing taboo about it, and as for the single peoples, modern Arabs are descendents of all Ancient Semites. Since you're not Arab, you need to study the Arab World history before to state such false statements.

Also, I really have nothing against Armenia, but some people here are Islamophobic and show hatred towards Arabs, Kurds, and Turks. One of them even calls to ethnic cleanse the Indigenous Kurds of their homeland, doing the same as Armenians had to live at the time of Ottomans, it is simply hypocrisy and hatred.

[ArmSurvival]

I don't even think we're on the same page anymore.

Anyways I'm going to be away for a few weeks (I will be making a stop in Armenia and Karabakh).... so no time to respond now.

[sirius1234]

Armsurvival

Enjoy your trip, see you. :wave:

[sirius1234]

Karo

and about the claime that Armenians livedthere from 6CBC is also wrong you are frogeting about the Uratu kingdom and the other tribes that lived there.

I didn't claim this, I only repeated what ArmSurvival stated. By the way, Urartu was not Modern Armenia, it was located on the indigenous lands of Kurdish people, and Urartaean language was not related to Armenian, nor to Indo-European languages... the name of Urartu itself is of Arabic-Semitic (Assyrian-Akkadian) root, not Armenian. Also, modern Armenian alphabet has nothing to do with Urartean writing system, which was derivated from Sumerian-Assyrian cuneiform scripts, Sumerians are Southern Iraqi people, who created the first Human civilisation in the Northern part of the Arabian peninsula.

Moreover, Arabic-Semitic tribes controlled the lands of Urartu for centuries before this Kingdom ever existed.

And the turks are not decendets of the hittites but are a ural-mongolic tribe

Yes, and Uralic speaking people of Finland are Mongoloid people too, although they are mostly blue-green eyed and light haired, which is a typical European and Mediterranean trait, not Asian??? :eek:

Armenians are European speaking people,while Anatolia and Modern Armenia are located on the continent of Asia, not Europe, just like the Central Asian tribes you are reffering to, so who are the invaders?

Sirius1234 do you really think that Turkey could occupaie Armenia
Even the US said would have trouble to win a war in Armenia so do you really think that the Turkish Army is stronger than the US army.

Besides the US Army needs to unite to 47 foreign countries to defeat a single and tiny Arab nation, the USA is already 301 millions, yet it seeks for the help of dozens of foreign contingents to war with an Arab state of less than 30 millions of people :wave:

[Armenian]

This thread has turned into a debate between dumb and dumber.

I have written enough about the Urartian-Armenian connection in the past, I'm not going to waste my time again on it. Nevertheless, the ancient Urartians (Araratians) were Armenians in every sense of the word and Armenians were Urartians in every sense of the word. What's more, Armenians are not European, Armenians are Anatolians and Caucasians in every sense of the word. This matter is not in debate anymore, the Armenian nation is, in essence, a mix of various Indo-European and Caucasian natives of the Armenian Highlands. This aforementioned "mix" is what we Armenians are culturally and genetically. This mix is called Armenian and Armenia. Prior to this mix all the major tribes of the region were proto-Armenians at best. And our Armenian homeland has always been and will someday again consist of Nakhijevan, Javakhq, western Armenia as well as all the territories under Armenian control today.

Thanks to some idiots in our community western derived BS concerning Armenian origins is still being used in discussion as if its still a matter of debate. Thanks to some idiots in our community turks still feel free to come in here and spew their fairy-tales.

Let's get back on topic, Western Armenia.

[melikianAvak]

This thread has turned into a debate between dumb and dumber.

I have written enough about the Urartian-Armenian connection in the past, I'm not going to waste my time again on it. Nevertheless, the ancient Urartians (Araratians) were Armenians in every sense of the word and Armenians were Urartians in every sense of the word. What's more, Armenians are not European, Armenians are Anatolians and Caucasians in every sense of the word. This matter is not in debate anymore, the Armenian nation is, in essence, a mix of various Indo-European and Caucasian natives of the Armenian Highlands. This aforementioned "mix" is what we Armenians are culturally and genetically. This mix is called Armenian and Armenia. Prior to this mix all the major tribes of the region were proto-Armenians at best. And our Armenian homeland has always been and will someday again consist of Nakhijevan, Javakhq, western Armenia as well as all the territories under Armenian control today.
Thanks to some idiots in our community western derived BS concerning Armenian origins is still being used in discussion as if its still a matter of debate. Thanks to some idiots in our community turks still feel free to come in here and spew their fairy-tales.

Let's get back on topic, Western Armenia.

Yegbayr Armenian

Very well said.

It is past time that we cease trying to educate people who are just never going to get it. They are going to give us history, ethnic makeup and tradition that simply are not true.

Let’s get back to Western Armenia and screw the rest of the BS coming from the jerks. We are not interested in Muslim, Turk, xxx or Arab stuff on an Armenian website that's subject is Western Armenia. It's time for them to go to a Turkish site and lie to each other. Another words I am tired of their xxxx

God Bless Hayk and the Hayk

Avak

[sirius1234]

Yegbayr Armenian

Very well said.

It is past time that we cease trying to educate people who are just never going to get it. They are going to give us history, ethnic makeup and tradition that simply are not true.

Let’s get back to Western Armenia and screw the rest of the BS coming from the jerks. We are not interested in Muslim, Turk, xxx or Arab stuff on an Armenian website that's subject is Western Armenia. It's time for them to go to a Turkish site and lie to each other. Another words I am tired of their xxxx

God Bless Hayk and the Hayk

Avak

It seems like many people here are though...

All over this website, and especially on this subject, Muslims and Turks are constantly cited and the debates Armenians engage in, are about them. "Western Armenia" being a part of the Islamic Kurdish homeland, and located in Turkey, you cannot expect anyone to talk about Armenia exclusively.

[sirius1234]

Armenian

You did not understand the discussion apparently, noone said the people of Urartu were not the forfathers of today Armenians, the point was Armenians are not more related to them than the Turks are to their Hittite, Phrygian, and Lidyan ancestors. They had a different language (which was not European as Armenian language is), they had a different writing system (they did not use alphabet, but Iraqi cuneiform scripts), they was not today Republic of Armenia (their lands were mostly in today Kurdistan), and the name of their country was of not of Armenian origin, but of Arabic-Semitic root.

Armenians are not Europeans indeed, they are Asians, but it isn't the point, today they speak an European language, while "Western Armenia" and Armenia are Asia. Some people here have stated that language was a criteria of indigenousness, denying the Turks their right to live in Asia Minor on the pretext their tongue is Altaic, not Anatolian. Well the same can be told for Armenians, and Turks speak an Asian language unlike them, they speak a language of the continent they inhabit.

Finally, it was proven "Western Armenia" was a part of the Semitic-Iraqi empires long before the concept of Armenia ever existed. This area does not belong to Armenians in exclusivity, just like the Sea of China doesn't belong to China, "Western Armenia" belongs to all of its indigenous people, and it includes Turks and Kurds.

[KarotheGreat]

the Turks are to their Hittite, Phrygian, and Lidyan ancestors

That's not true that's Turkish propoganda the hittite and all those others wh lived in Anatolia died thousands of a years ago, When the mongol turks Invidaded they masacered the people living there most of them were greeks and romans(east-roman empire) by then but they were all massicared when the cities wre caputered

they was not today Republic of Armenia (their lands were mostly in today Kurdistan),

that's not true ether the city of yerevan is build on a old uratian fortres named erebuni

denying the Turks their right to live in Asia Minor on the pretext their tongue is Altaic, not Anatolian

that's not the reason we don't want you there it is bacause your mongolian invadors and need to get the hell out of our lands and western Armenia belongs to Armenia, look at te cities of Van, Ani, Kars kurds and turks never have could builded those citeis and many others. Turks have never builded a city in all of their history they have conquered and destroyed but never build. And we will take back our lands one way or on other Azat Hayasdan, mer hoger@ mijanjn mernen michev ashxari verch@

Karo

[sirius1234]

Karo

That's not true that's Turkish propoganda

Are Norway, the USA, and Greece, parts of the republic of Turkey, huh? Reread the texts I posted about Anatolian Turks being descendents of the Ancient Anatolians who lived there for millenia. The Central Asian element is minor in their DNA, at least not more than the allien genes (Turkish, Russian, Arab, etc) present among Armenians.

the hittite and all those others wh lived in Anatolia died thousands of a years ago

How did they die, do you have a link? You wish. :crying:

When the mongol turks Invidaded they masacered the people living there most of them were greeks and romans(east-roman empire) by then but they were all massicared when the cities wre caputered

Really? Do you have a credible source for this? No real historian would ever agree with such lies, why do you rewrite history? LMAO :naughty:

And by the way, what were the Roman and Greek invaders doing in Anatolia? Are they those who killed the Hittite and their indigenous Anatolian counterparts? LOL

Listen, Greeks have invaded Lydian Anatolia, and Roman invaders originated from the Italian péninsula, so it is ok for them to steal and massacre Anatolians, and not for the Turks to massacre those invaders? You owned yourself.

P.S: The Eastern Roman Empire, aka Byzantin Empire, was ruled by the Greeks as well, not by Italian Romans.


that's not true ether the city of yerevan is build on a old uratian fortres named erebuni


Reread what I wrote, this political entity was a kingdom, not the Republic of Armenia, and although it included Modern Armenia, most of its lands were located in the Islamic Kurdish homeland, in Turkey and Iran. Here is a clear map from an Armenian website:



http://www.armenica.org/history/maps/13-Urartu-9-6mta.gif



that's not the reason we don't want you there it is bacause your mongolian invadors

Armenians are European speaking people, go back to Europe, Asia Minor is for Asians. And don't ever think you can tell Turks what to do, they control the lands, you don't...

and need to get the hell out of our lands and western Armenia belongs to Armenia, look at te cities of Van, Ani, Kars kurds and turks never have could builded those citeis and many others. Turks have never builded a city in all of their history they have conquered and destroyed but never build. And we will take back our lands one way or on other Azat Hayasdan, mer hoger@ mijanjn mernen michev ashxari verch@

Still your usual propaganda, how wonderful to read so much lies.

Noone's going to get out of those Islamic lands, and whether you like it or not, "Western Armenia" will remain Kurdish, you're too poor and too weak to be able to capture any sq km of land...

So many people are jealous because their country is poor and under-developped, because they have no real armed forces and were under foreign dominations for millenia with almost no interruptions. It must suck to be so frustrated and envious, suffering from a massive inferiority complex.


Deal with this map:

http://www.cfww.org/pub/edition_5/images/ed5_20.gif



http://www.freewebs.com/the_greatest_military_commander/Ataturk(4)%20(web)2.jpg

[Lucin]

What absurd jokes...
The thread is about the Liberation of Western Armenia and not a Turkic "history" lesson to Armenians about Armenians' origins, language or where Armenia is located.
Armos, every time you are responding, he gets a chance to spew his irrelevant Turkish kaka in here.

[KarotheGreat]

I now see your right lucin I'm tired of discussing with him all he tell's is BS

[sirius1234]

Lucin

Same answer, reread the former discussions. "Western Armenia" is a part of Turkey and constitutes most of the Kurdish homeland of this country.

Hence, you're debating about Turks yourself.

[sirius1234]

I now see your right lucin I'm tired of discussing with him all he tell's is BS

Nice attempt to evade the subject, I still wait for the links I required frm you.

[KarotheGreat]

[edit] History
Main article: History of the Hittites
The Hittite kingdom is conventionally divided into three periods, the Old Hittite Kingdom (ca. 1750–1500 BC), the Middle Hittite Kingdom (ca. 1500–1430 BC) and the New Hittite Kingdom (the Hittite Empire proper, ca. 1430–1180 BC).

The earliest known member of a Hittite speaking dynasty, Pithana, was based at the city of Kussara. In the 18th century BC Anitta, his son and successor, made the Hittite speaking city of Neša into one of his capitals and adopted the Hittite language for his inscriptions there. However, Kussara remained the dynastic capital for about a century until Labarna II adopted Hattusa as the dynastic seat, possibly taking the throne name of Hattusili, "man of Hattusa", at that time.

The Old Kingdom, centered at Hattusa, peaked during the 16th century, and even managed to sack Babylon at one point, but made no attempt to govern there, enabling the Kassite to rise to prominence there and rule it for over 400 years.

During the 15th century, Hittite power fell into obscurity, re-emerging with the reign of Tudhaliya I from ca. 1400 BC. Under Suppiluliuma I and Mursili II, the Empire was extended to most of Anatolia and parts of Syria and Canaan, so that by 1300 the Hittites were bordering on the Egyptian sphere of influence, leading to the inconclusive Battle of Kadesh in 1274 BC.

Civil war and rivalling claims to the throne, combined with the external threat of the Sea Peoples weakened the Hittites and by 1160 BC, the Empire had collapsed. "Neo-Hittite" post-Empire states, petty kingdoms under Assyrian rule, may have lingered on until ca. 700 BC, and the Bronze Age Hittite and Luwian dialects evolved into the sparsely attested Lydian, Lycian and Carian languages.

Remnants of these languages lingered into Persian times and were finally extinct by the spread of Hellenism.


this is from wikipedia and after alexanders conquest many greeks moved in asia-minor and started colonies there so what do you need to know about a people that no longer existed how can you be there desecndents if they allready were replaced by indo-european people and that about Armenia needs get back to europe than what about the persians and the hindus tell me about it and please remove the picture of that gay guy from your last post

[sirius1234]

Karo

So, to you, the collapse of an empire means the physical disappearence of its population? Strange logic, if we took it, Turks wouldn't be the descendents of Anatolian Ottomans, and Russians wouldn't be the descendents of Soviets.

Where does it tell Hittites, Phrygians, and Lydians died? Where does it say most people of Anatolia were Greeks and Romans prior to the Turkish conquest, and were exterminated by the Turkish forces? It is only the history of the Hittite Kingdom, nothing else...

Don't you have anything productive to say? I still wait for the links :wave:

there so what do you need to know about a people that no longer existed how can you be there desecndents if they allready were replaced by indo-european people

Where in your text it says they don't exist anymore physically speaking? Listen, Hittite were Indo-European people... you're so ignorant of Anatolian history, then you have the audacity to play the intellectual about this topic.


and that about Armenia needs get back to europe than what about the persians and the hindus tell me about it

Don't evade the subject, we are talking about Armenians and Turks, not India and Iran.

But still, Persians and Hindus are Indo-Iranian speakers, they don't speak European languages unlike Armenians. Nice try though. So if the language of Turks, which is Asian, isn't Anatolian enough for you, cross Caucasus mountains and go to Europe where people speak the same languages as you, although they're physically White unlike you.

this is from wikipedia and after alexanders conquest many greeks moved in asia-minor and started colonies

Well, It is nice to admit Greeks were colonisers in Anatolia, so why do you victimise them, as if they were indigenous? You seem to be self-contradicting. Also, Greeks colonised Anatolia centuries before Alexander The Great was ever born, Greeks attacked the Lydians (Western Turkey) and destroyed Troya.

P.S: Wikipedia is not a reliable source

and please remove the picture of that gay guy from your last post

Ok, and don't forget the links :)

http://www.turkishnews.com/Ataturk/Ataturk.jpg

http://www.tfl.k12.tr/ataturk8.jpg

[Lucin]

I now see your right lucin I'm tired of discussing with him all he tell's is BS


You are tired of discussing with him; yet you are responding to his EVERY xxxx, STOP doing so then.
You are just ruining the thread with your absurd, disgusting and completely irrelevant bullxxxx.

[sirius1234]

You are tired of discussing with him; yet you are responding to his EVERY xxxx, STOP doing so then.
You are just ruining the thread with your absurd, disgusting and completely irrelevant bullxxxx.

:naughty: :laugh:

[KarotheGreat]

I don't have much time so I'll try to do this quick the hittite empire colopases, after that the assirians came they hade children with the locals and blood line became thiner, than the medes came and the same happend and then the persians this happend on a larger scale than alexander and his man came and the same happend. After the dead of Alexander Selceudics took over that part of the world and they had greeks marriening locals and having decendends their empire collopaste as it happens to each empire than Pontus and armenia ruled over those aries and pontic and armenian soldiers some times married those people and then rome came for almost 500 years with it's culture and all and the same happend. After the collapse of the west-roman empire byzantian empire with it's greeks ruled the land than came the arabs who did the same with their harrams and after the arabs the mongol turks invidaded and did the same you see the hittite blood can not survive mor than 2000 year of inter marrige with somany diffrent people. I think I proved my point here and that's the last post yousee of me discussing with you on this subject

Karo

[sirius1234]

Karo

You have enough time to make your delirious statements though. Where are the links?

You proved nothing, my dear... you just stated the fact Turks have various ancestors, just like Armenians, who were invaded by the same invaders you listed, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Greek Byzantines, Arabs, Seljuks, Ottomans, Mongols, Russians etc, the "Armenian blood" did not survive those millenia of mix and mass rapes.

By the way, Assyrians are the Iraqi people, and they owned "Western Armenia" centuries before Armenia ever existed. So this area should be given back to Iraqis, following your logic.

So, will you provide the links I required from you to prove your point, or will you just run away as usual?

:crying:

[Artsakh]

http://www.freewebs.com/the_greatest_military_commander/Ataturk(4)%20(web)2.jpg

Why are you posting a picture of this GAY HOMOSEXUAL in this thread? do you know that the father of the Turks enjoyed large Penises up his anus? are you proud of that? you should be ashamed.

[melikianAvak]

What absurd jokes...
The thread is about the Liberation of Western Armenia and not a Turkic "history" lesson to Armenians about Armenians' origins, language or where Armenia is located.
Armos, every time you are responding, he gets a chance to spew his irrelevant Turkish kaka in here.


Your right he is an idiot, lets ignore him and his crap, he is a degenerate who knows little true history. I would like to have said F him, Kemal, and turkey but I won't.

Respectfully

[sirius1234]

Your right he is an idiot, lets ignore him and his crap, he is a degenerate who knows little true history. I would like to have said F him, Kemal, and turkey but I won't.

Respectfully

Why are you being so mean? It is such a great sign of Armenian civilisation.

Keep denying history, if it makes you feel better.

[sirius1234]

Why are you posting a picture of this GAY HOMOSEXUAL in this thread? do you know that the father of the Turks enjoyed large Penises up his anus? are you proud of that? you should be ashamed.

Are you homophobic? More Armenian advances in civilisation :laugh:

http://www.milliyet.com.tr/ozel/ataturk/images/ata7.jpg

[melikianAvak]

Please ban this turk.

[Artsakh]

Please ban this turk.


that is unlikely to happen. at this forum, anti-armenian posts seem to be allowed. for some unknown reason, they only ban you if make anti-hrya posts or comments. hmm....

[Artsakh]

hi "Kate",

you asked for proof that Ataturk was gay; I guess the mods deleted your post or something cuz its gone. Any how, here's the proof:

Founder Of Modern Turkey, Ataturk, Was Homosexual, Book Published By Ministry Of Education Of Belgian State Of Valon Mentions

* From: MihranK@aol.com
* Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:17:14 +0500 (AMST)

FOUNDER OF MODERN TURKEY, ATATURK, WAS HOMOSEXUAL, BOOK PUBLISHED BY MINISTRY OF EDUCATION OF BELGIAN STATE OF VALON MENTIONS

Noyan Tapan
Armenians Today
Mar 28 2007

BRUSSELS, MARCH 28, NOYAN TAPAN - ARMENIANS TODAY. The Ministry of
Education of Belgian state of Valon published a book, in which the
founder of modern Republic of Turkey, Mustafa Kemal - Ataturk, is
numbered among the most important and the most prominent homosexuals
in the history.

With this step, in fact, the Belgian state joined the step of Greek
young people who placed similar information about Ataturk on the
www.youtube.com well-known web-site in early March.

According to the Zaman Turkish newspaper, the book under the title
"Fight Against Homophobia," which consists of 144 pages, was given
out to pupils of pre-school and secondary colleges of the state of
Valon. On book's page 105 Ataturk is numbered among the most famous
homosexuals in the world history.

According to the book, Alexander of Macedon, Leonardo da Vinci,
Goethe, as well as the Pope John Paul III were also homosexuals.

Marriage of homosexuals is permitted in Belgium.


http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg183255.html

--------------------------------------------------------------

ANKARA: Belgian Textbook Insults Turkey's Founder Ataturk

* From: "Katia M. Peltekian" <kpeltekian@yahoo.com>
* Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:56:15 +0500 (AMST)

BELGIAN TEXTBOOK INSULTS TURKEY'S FOUNDER ATATURK
Vedat DenÝzlÝ Brussels

Today's Zaman, Turkey
March 28 2007

Following the broadcast of videos with explicit content about Ataturk
by a Greek youth on the famous Internet site youtube.com, Belgium
has engaged in similar infamy by listing Ataturk among the important
homosexual and bisexual personalities of history.

A book by the minister of education of the province of Valon in Belgium
and distributed to all schools in the province claims that Ataturk was
one of history's important and famous homosexual or bisexual figures

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was included on a list of "Famous homosexuals
and bisexuals in history" on the 105th page of the 144-page book
titled, "Fight Against Homophobia." The small book, prepared at the
instructions of Valon Education Minister Marie Arena and distributed
to all students in primary and secondary education, emphasizes that
homosexuality is not actually a negative thing and that there were
many famous and important homosexual or bisexual people in history.

Today's Zaman's efforts to reach Marie Arena proved fruitless. It
is unknown what source this information was based on, though it will
certainly spark harsh reactions in Turkey. A leading paper in Belgium,
De Standaard, covered the issue and in a related report wrote that
Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey, was included on the list and
noted that it was yet unknown whether the Turkish Embassy in Belgium
was aware of the incident.

Belgium is one of the few countries in the world that grants its
citizens the right to same-sex marriages and child adoption by
homosexual couples. It is stated that the distribution of the book was
aimed at "enlightening the future of the young generation in Belgium"
and informing them correctly by giving information on the history
of homosexuality and the general sociocultural perception in regard
to homosexuality. The book also touches on the equality of women and
discusses the viewpoints of other societies regarding homosexuality,
with an aim to prevent the younger generation from harboring negative
opinions on homosexuality.

Among famous homosexuals in history, according to the book, are
Alexander the Great, Leonardo da Vinci, and Goethe. Other interesting
names on the list are some spiritual leaders of the Catholic world
such as Pope Benoit IX and Pope Jules III.

Turkey currently has some other problems with Belgium, such as allowing
the escapte of Fehriye Erdal, the murderer of Ozdemir Sabancý,
brother of late famous businessman Sakýp Sabancý. Belgium is also
a country where members of the separatist Kurdistan Workers' Party
(PKK) and the Revolutionary People's Liberation Party-Front (DHKP-C)
freely walk the streets. Belgium is also trying to punish the denial
of the so-called Armenian genocide.

Meanwhile a Belgian court found a security company guilty of
discrimination after it refused to employ Turkish national Murat
Calýþkan on the basis of his being a foreigner. The court accused the
company of "apparent racism" and ruled that it should pay compensation
to Calýþkan. He said he would use the compensation money in the fight
against racism and donate it to immigration centers.

--Boundary_(ID_U4fxjLm2hIYT7/QDWPJ2TA)--


http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg183303.html

[sirius1234]

I never denied anything, and I didn't ask for any proofs. I wanted to know if you were homophobic, apparently you are.

A Belgian media said he was gay then it means he was? LMAO

Typical ignorant, you follow all what you read on the net! :naughty::naughty::naughty::naughty:

You're jealous because Ataturk is cuter than your president! :crying:

http://www.jamestown.org/photos/kocharian.jpg

http://www.elmadag.gov.tr/image/Ataturk.jpg

[Artsakh]

why don't you clear out your eyes and stop assuming things. As you can clearly see with your blind eyes, my response was addressed to the member "Kate."

as for who's homophonic, I think that the current turkish government is certainly homophobic because they referred to Belgium's publication of the fact that ataturk was gay as "insulting turkishness".

p.s. i think robert kocharyan and ataturk would make a great couple:naughty:

[Armenian]

Recent events concerning Turkey and Kurdistan reveal just how fluid and unpredictable politics can be, especially for this region. It will simply take a similar event one day to trigger the commencement of the unraveling of the Turkish state. Nevertheless, isn't it amazing how we Armenians, a tiny little minority, in the United States can cause such an international stir? Turks essentially got a bit-ch slap from us and in their seething anger they are about to begin throwing punches in Kurdistan.

Armenian

************************************************** ********

Turkey plans incursion, PKK says ready to attack

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/10/09/world/turkey_650.3.jpg

Kurdish separatist rebels said on Friday they were crossing back into Turkey to target politicians and police after Ankara said it was preparing to attack them in the mountains of northern Iraq. As regional tensions rose, Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan cautioned that relations between Ankara and Washington were in danger over a U.S. congressional resolution branding as genocide massacres of Armenians by Ottoman Turks in 1915.

Washington harbors growing concerns about the possibility of a major Turkish military incursion to crush Kurdish rebels seeking a homeland in eastern Turkey. U.S. officials fear such an action could destabilize a relatively peaceful area of Iraq. Ankara recalled its ambassador from the United States for consultations after the U.S. vote, which was strongly condemned in predominantly Muslim but secular Turkey.

"We don't need anyone's advice on northern Iraq and the operation to be carried out there," Erdogan told a cheering crowd in Istanbul, after saying that the United States "came tens of thousands of kilometers and attacked Iraq without asking anyone's permission."

Referring to relations with the United States and the Armenian resolution, Erdogan, using a Turkish idiom usually employed to describe relations, said: "Where the rope is worn thin, may it break off." He did not elaborate.

"All prospects look bad ... and relations with the U.S. have already gone down the drain," Semih Idiz, a veteran Turkish commentator, told Reuters.

"If Turkey sets its mind on something, whether wrong or right it will do it. The invasion of Cyprus in 1974 is a good example," he said, referring to a Turkish invasion of northern Cyprus which drew U.S. condemnation and sanctions.

A statement by the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) could increase domestic pressure on Ankara to launch a big offensive that Washington fears could have ramifications in the region. The United States relies heavily on Turkish bases to supply its war effort in Iraq. Erdogan said his government was ready for any world criticism if Turkey launched an attack against some 3,000 PKK rebels who use north Iraq as a base to attack Turkish targets. Ankara blames the PKK for the deaths of more than 30,000 people since the group launched its armed struggle for an ethnic homeland in southeast Turkey in 1984.

Some analysts say an offensive became more likely after the U.S. House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee approved the bill on Wednesday. Relations with Washington have hitherto been a strong restraining force on Turkey. Turkey denies that genocide was committed but said many died in inter-ethnic fighting. It remains a sensitive issue, but many Turks are starting to more openly discuss such past taboos. The PKK statement moved world oil prices back above $83 a barrel, traders said. The Kirkuk oil fields of northern Iraq feed export pipelines running north into Turkey.

ERDOGAN FACES MOUNTING PRESSURE

After a sharp escalation of attacks by Kurdish militants on Turkish troops, Erdogan's government, which faces pressure from the public and the army to act, has decided to seek approval from parliament next week for a major operation. Erdogan said he wanted to secure approval now to avoid spending time later if and when an operation was warranted. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called Erdogan on Thursday to express her disappointment at the U.S. Armenian bill, which the White House has tried to stop.

The non-binding Armenian resolution now goes to the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives, where Democrat leaders say there will be a vote next month. The resolution was proposed by a politician with many Armenian-Americans in his district. Turkey has cautioned that the bill would have negative consequences for bilateral ties. Potential moves could include blocking U.S. access to the Incirlik air base, cancelling army contracts, downscaling bilateral visits, denying air space to U.S. aircraft, and halting joint exercises.

Iraqi Defence Minister Abdul-Qadir Mohammed Jasim held talks with Turkey's ambassador to Baghdad on Friday to seek ways to improve bilateral ties in fighting terrorism. Erdogan said Turkey respected Iraq's unity but if it did nothing to stop the PKK, considered a terrorist organization group by Washington, Ankara and the EU, then Ankara had to act. Analysts and diplomats cast doubt on whether PKK rebels would leave their Iraqi hideouts for the southeast of Turkey where tens of thousands of heavily armed troops are positioned.

"The guerrillas are not moving to the south (northern Iraq); on the contrary they are moving to ... places in the north," the PKK said in a statement published on Firat news agency. The PKK said its fighters planned to carry out attacks against the ruling AK Party, the main opposition CHP and the police unless certain conditions were met. It did not elaborate.

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071012/wl_nm/turkey_iraq_dc_26

[KarotheGreat]

Now let's sit back get some popcorn and watch them kill eachother that will be fun. :D

[skhara]

Recent events concerning Turkey and Kurdistan reveal just how fluid and unpredictable politics can be, especially for this region. It will simply take a similar event one day to trigger the commencement of the unraveling of the Turkish state. Nevertheless, isn't it amazing how we Armenians, a tiny little minority, in the United States can cause such an international stir? Turks essentially got a bit-ch slap from us and in their seething anger they are about to begin throwing punches in Kurdistan.

Armenian


Yep, its just been incredible how the Armenian issue has been on the top of every news site.

I hope turks hurry up and invade N Iraq. In fact, I think Kurds are trying to sucker them into attacking N Iraq and create a quagmire for them there.

[Marie]

that is unlikely to happen. at this forum, anti-armenian posts seem to be allowed. for some unknown reason, they only ban you if make anti-hrya posts or comments. hmm....

its not fair why u let those barbarian post? they dont have a brain to think so its waste of time for us to read that..;-)

anyway about this thread: liberation of Western Armenia i think now its between 60% and 80 % of those land which is belongs to Armenia historical highland (as Ani,Ararat,Erzeroum, perhaps Van..) and the other part which is belongs to Kurd land..

[Marie]

i saw u was speaking about the part of kurdistan in irak,
anyway u have to know that each part of kurdistan has to belongs to Iran cuz kurd=iranian..

[Azad]

Now let's sit back get some popcorn and watch them kill eachother that will be fun. :D

I am getting a bag that will last me for couple years.

[Merv]

http://www.elmadag.gov.tr/image/Ataturk.jpg

I see. Another force-converted Slav/Greek calling himself a "Turk."

Pathetic.

What I don't understand is why people like Ataturk, who must have been cognizant of their non-Turkic ethnic background, didn't convert back to Christianity and accept Greek/Slav culture? If someone had a choice, why would they ever choose "Turkish" "culture" over much more advanced, dignified cultures.

Same goes with Bosnian Muslims and Cretan Turks, who are SO in denial.

[Armenian]

i saw u was speaking about the part of kurdistan in irak,
anyway u have to know that each part of kurdistan has to belongs to Iran cuz kurd=iranian..

In my opinion, Kurds do deserve a nation of their own. And them being of Iranian decent means nothing. The English are of Germanic decent, Bosnian Muslims are of Serbian decent, Cypriots are of Greek decent, etc... If a people have a national identity, regardless of its origins or language, than they deserve a nation. A Kurdish state can potentially act as a future buffer against Arabs, Turks and Iranians. A Kurdish state will hinder the dominance of another state in the region. The only problem that needs to be solved with them is land partition, how to divide up the lands of eastern Anatolia between Armenians and Kurds.

[Illuminator]

I see. Another force-converted Slav/Greek calling himself a "Turk."

Pathetic.

What I don't understand is why people like Ataturk, who must have been cognizant of their non-Turkic ethnic background, didn't convert back to Christianity and accept Greek/Slav culture? If someone had a choice, why would they ever choose "Turkish" "culture" over much more advanced, dignified cultures.

Same goes with Bosnian Muslims and Cretan Turks, who are SO in denial.



Guess again.........he was jooish

[Armenian]

There has been a startling new revelation regarding the homeland of Armenians. And all this time I thought we Armenians needed to take back Anatolia. Damn, it's Palestine that we need!

Joos think they had it bad with Arabs, just wait... :evil:

European countries and Russia have been provoking Armenians since the eighteenth century, Firat said. “We only protected our lives and honor. The homeland of Armenians is Palestine. They were exiled by the Byzantines to Anatolia. Kurds called the Armenians ‘Fille’ in a special reference to Palestine. Those ‘Filles’ were sent back to their homeland during deportation. The number of Armenians who died during the armed conflict is not more than a few thousand.”

Source: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=37691

[Azad]

"IN THE QANDIL MOUNTAINS, Iraq (AP) — A Kurdish rebel commander has warned Turkey it would encounter tough resistance and a dragged-out, Vietnam-style conflict, if it launched a large-scale offensive against the Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2007-10-14-kurds_N.htm?csp=34

[skhara]

In my opinion, Kurds do deserve a nation of their own. And them being of Iranian decent means nothing. The English are of Germanic decent, Bosnian Muslims are of Serbian decent, Cypriots are of Greek decent, etc... If a people have a national identity, regardless of its origins or language, than they deserve a nation. A Kurdish state can potentially act as a future buffer against Arabs, Turks and Iranians. A Kurdish state will hinder the dominance of another state in the region. The only problem that needs to be solved with them is land partition, how to divide up the lands of eastern Anatolia between Armenians and Kurds.

I like your thinking. If the turkish state is too collapse, it is Kurds who would play a major part in it. I suppose when the time is right, Armenian leadership would have to engage Kurds and find some kind of agreement, otherwise Armenians will end up in a war with Kurds.

[skhara]

"IN THE QANDIL MOUNTAINS, Iraq (AP) — A Kurdish rebel commander has warned Turkey it would encounter tough resistance and a dragged-out, Vietnam-style conflict, if it launched a large-scale offensive against the Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2007-10-14-kurds_N.htm?csp=34

Yeah, I think it would be smart for the Kurds to drag Turkey into N Iraq. This will not only make it easier for them to fight on their turf, but will probably piss off enough Kurds to swell the numbers for PKK and form other militant organizations.

[Kanki]

[SIZE="3"][CENTER][B]
The out-come of the Artsakh issue

The strength of the Armenian economy

The strength of the Armenian military

Your economy and military can not equal with Turkish millitary and economy!:eek:

[The strength and ideological conviction of the Armenian Diaspora



Maybe... there is many Turkish lobbies in Germany,Belgium,Netherlands etc...

[Whether or not Armenia develops and nuclear bomb



Turkey has got 7 nuclear bomb! Don't think this plan!

[Superpower interests within the region


Superpower needs Turkey as using a bridge! And Turkey has no petrol! both of them NATO country!
[Strong Armenian-Iranians relations



Iran never help you! They are muslim and Turkey muslim too also Turkish-Iranian relations are very good. Turkey supports Iran's politics...Forget it!

[Strong Armenian-Russian relations


Racism generalizes in Russian young people! Forget it! Russian-Turkish relations are good, they make trade !

[Armenian-Kurdish relations


hehehe Kurdish people has got no state, no goverment! no military! and they are only 17 milions but Turkish people 67 milions...Lets include other Turkish countries Kazakhistan,Turkmenistan,Uzmekistan,Azerbejian etc many population! Forget!

[Armenian-Arab relations


Give example how it can be!!!! They are muslim also they never struggle
Armenian-Turk wars! Evens so, they can struggle Iraq! FORGET THIS IDEA!

[Armenian-EU relations


Only France,Switzerland etc... supports armenia!but many EU countries in NATO! They never fight with a Nato country(Turkey)... Forget it! also EU countries make trade with Turkey they can think only their economy! FORGET IT!

[Turkey's internal problems - social and economic



Turkey has got no economical problems!! Only they have TERROR problem from some of the Kurdish people...Also every Kurd don't support PKK!
That social problem not very important! Turkish army is powerful and too many young people there!
[Turkey's external problems - political and military


Turkey has powerful military! no problem in Military! Don't make hooey!

[Unexpected "natural" disasters


maybe you must pray god to come unexpected diasters to Turkish people:laugh::naughty:

[karoaper]

Eshi qurag is as eshi qurag does, ehh Kanki. Thinking for an idiot like you is harmful for health. FORGET IT!

[Monastras]

Yeah, I think it would be smart for the Kurds to drag Turkey into N Iraq. This will not only make it easier for them to fight on their turf, but will probably piss off enough Kurds to swell the numbers for PKK and form other militant organizations.

I am sorry But Turkish army has been In N Iraq many times. It has also got sizeble manpower there for the last decade. You will see PKK can not swell as the army In Iraq or any body can resist as they did not in the past. I think the only way to fight effectively against PKK or terrorist organisation is to spread battle where they are logisticly supplied and garsp the areas until they are sent to heaven. :D
We know some people will be happy if Turks are in trouble. I am afraid they are wrong

[Monastras]

Western Armenia will be liberated when the geo-political situation in the world changes. Let me put it this way, even if the Armenians don't care about their lands in Turkey, the Greeks sure as hell haven't forgotten about theirs. When the time is right, the Greeks won't pass up the opporunity, and I'm sure the Armenians will play a part in that plan, and attack from the other side. With an internal kurdish uprising, and Syrian forces attacking from the south (in pursuit of the realization of their greater syria), that's when the Armenian question will be solved. and you know what, it'll be the Armenians who live in armenia that'll be doing the fighting, and not you know who.


What a nice plan you have made. well done. I do not know where do you live but I would advise you make a trip to Turkey and spend a few days there and tell us is it realy likely that this might happen in a few century time. This tells us exactly why armenian people lost their homeland in Turkey for ever.

[skhara]

Turds - Kurds

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7055004.stm


Dozens die in Turkey border clash
An ambulance carries injured Turkish soldiers following a clash with Kurdish rebels
The attack on Turkish troops was one of the deadliest for some time
At least 12 Turkish soldiers have been killed following an ambush by Kurdish rebels near the Iraqi border - with 32 rebels also killed, officials say.

[Kanki]

Turks are right to attack North Iraq! PKK is terror organization and more dangerious tahn IRA and ETA! Also they claim to set up Kurdistan in your WESTERN ARMENIA!! Including Kars,Erzurum,Van.... Kurds are enemy for Armenians too! Also DTP is kurdish politic party which supports kurdish rebels! Their president Ahmet Turt's grandfather killed armenians

[skhara]

Turks are right to attack North Iraq! PKK is terror organization and more dangerious tahn IRA and ETA! Also they claim to set up Kurdistan in your WESTERN ARMENIA!! Including Kars,Erzurum,Van.... Kurds are enemy for Armenians too! Also DTP is kurdish politic party which supports kurdish rebels! Their president Ahmet Turt's grandfather killed armenians

Are you a turk?

[Kanki]

Are you a turk?
No, but I have been Turkey for 11 years.2 years ago I left there And I know Turks,Kurds and Turkish Armenians including Hrant Dink, Greeks etc..Also I can speak Turkish,Japanish and Spanish well

[Lucin]

No, but I have been Turkey for 11 years.2 years ago I left there And I know Turks,Kurds and Turkish Armenians including Hrant Dink, Greeks etc..Also I can speak Turkish,Japanish and Spanish well


He is a Turd, Skhara. :)

[Armenian]

No, but I have been Turkey for 11 years.2 years ago I left there And I know Turks,Kurds and Turkish Armenians including Hrant Dink, Greeks etc..Also I can speak Turkish,Japanish and Spanish well

In other words, you are a Turk...

[Kanki]

I like Turks but I am not

[Kanki]

Whatever I made some quotes from "Armenian" friend! Are they false??? I used to live Turkey so I know somethings about them

[Armenian]

Armenia’s territorial claims to Turkey prevent from establishing diplomatic relations – Turkish ambassador to Russia

“After Armenia appeared as a result of the collapse of the USSR in 1991, Turkey was the first country to recognize it,” Turkey’s Ambassador to the Russian Federation Kurtulus Taskent announced at a news conference in Moscow today, a REGNUM correspondent informs. “However, Armenia’s Independence Declaration contains a number of articles that present Armenia’s claims for eastern Turkish territories, after that the events in Karabakh occurred, during which Armenia occupied about 20% of the Azerbaijani territory. Those facts prevented from establishing diplomatic relations between our countries,” the ambassador believes. “Meanwhile, there are about several thousands illegal labor migrants in Turkey from Armenia; Turkey gives its air passage for air links between Armenia and European countries,” Kurtulus Taskent noted, “To establish normal diplomatic relations with Turkey, Armenia must eradicate from its Independence Declaration and the constitution those articles containing claims for territories of other countries,” the Turkish ambassador to Russia concluded.

Source: http://www.regnum.ru/english/907144.html

[Armenian]

Relations between Armenia and PKK Terrorism

Changing their tactics after the ’80s as they encountered adverse reactions from the world. Now, it was time for PKK to carry on the mission. Their first terrorist act started at Eruh and Semdimli in 1984 while the ASALA-Armenian terror receded to the background. Some of the tangible proofs of the ties between Armenians and PKK are the following:

The terrorist organisation PKK announced the period from 21 to 28 April 1980 as the "Red Week" and started to organise meetings on April 24 as the anniversary of the alleged genocide against Armenians.

The PKK and ASALA terror organisations held a joint press conference on 8 April 1980 at the City of Sidon in Lebanon where they issued a declaration. Since this drew a considerable reaction, they decided that their relations should be maintained on a clandestine basis. The responsibility of the attacks launched against the Turkish Consulate General in Strasbourg on 9 November 1980 and the Turkish Airline office in Rome on 19 November 1980 were undertaken jointly by the ASALA and PKK. Abdullah Öcalan, leader of the separatist terror organisation, was elected to the honorary membership of the Armenian Authors’ Association for "his contributions to the idea of Greater Armenia". A Kurdistan Committee was formed within the Armenian Popular Movement like in many European countries.

On 4 June 1993, a meeting was held at the headquarters of PKK terrorist organisation at West Beyrouth with the participation of representatives from the Armenian Hinchak Party, ASALA and PKK.

Another striking example of the Armenian-PKK ties are the following resolutions adopted in meetings held at two separate churches from 6 to 9 September 1993 with the participation of Lebanese Armenian Orthodox Archbishop, officials of the Armenian Party and about 150 youth leaders :

A somewhat sedate attitude should be reserved toward Turkey for the time being. The Armenian community is on the way to growth and better economic strength. The propaganda activities have started to make the genocide claims better understood in the rest of the world. The newly founded Armenian State with a constantly growing territory will definitely avenge the ancestors of its citizens. The Western powers and particularly the United States side with and favour the Armenians in the combat for Nagorno Karabakh. This opportunity should be well exploited as more and more Armenian young men join the ranks in this fight. The perpetual terrorist attacks in Turkey (meaning the PKK’s actions) will continue and eventually collapse the country’s economy, leading to an uprising by the entire population. Turkey will be abolish and a Kurdish State will be formed. Armenians will hold good relations with the Kurds and support their fight. Territories presently held by the Turks will the Armenian’s tomorrow.

PUBLICATION ORGANS OF TERRORIST ORGANISATION PKK IN ARMENIA

The newspapers Reya Taze and Bota Redaksiyon are published in Armenia in Cyrillic alphabet under the control of terrorist organisation PKK with the help of PKK members coming from Turkey and Europe and carries out propaganda for the PKK.

PKK-ASALA RELATIONS

The Armenian terrorism at international first started basis in 1973 and began to gain impetus after the 1974 Cyprus Peace Operation with attacks or terrorist nature against Turks and Turkish representations abroad with sabotages and outright assaults.

Upon resurrection of the Kurdish terrorist movement that began to show itself in a variety of legal political entities from ’70s onward, the Armenian terror organisation ASALA ceded its place in 1984 to the PKK that killed without distinction of Turk or Kurd in a bloodthirsty manner under the guidance of Abdullah Öcalan.

Yet in prior to that date, of the co-operation between terrorist organisations ASALA and PKK was known manifesting in the training of ASALA militants at PKK’s trannie camps, the joint operations and declamations by them both and training support provided at the PKK camps by Armenian experts, not to mention the organic ties between the terrorist organisation PKK and Armenian Tashnak Sutyun Party.

The common goal of the co-operation between the terrorist organisations PKK and ASALA is to establish States in Turkey’s Southeastern and Eastern under the Marxist-Leninist ideology. Since, however, an overview of the areas on which both organisations had schemes, it may be deduced that one of these organisations acts as the other’s mercenaries.

An examination of the discovered documents revealed that the militants of ASALA and PKK terrorist organisations underwent training at the Bekaa and Zeli camps.

1987 AGREEMENT BETWEEN PKK AND ARMENIANS

An agreement was concluded between the separatist terror organisation PKK and Armenians in 1987. Following are the highlights of this agreement:

1. Armenians will be involved in training activities within the PKK terror organisation.

2. Five thousand American Dollars per annum will be paid to the PKK terror organisation per capita by the Armenian side.

3. The Armenians will participate in the small-scale operations.

As the Armenian component began to acquire a significantly elevated position within the organisation as a result of this agreement, the following resolutions were adopted in a meeting held on 18 April 1990 with a person named Hermes Samurai, reported to be the official responsible for the PKK-ASALA relations:

1. The PKK and ASALA terrorist organisations will be under a joint command from that date on.

2. The Armenians will undertake intelligence work on the Turkish security forces.

3. Territories gained through the expected revolution will be equally shared between the parties.

4. Seventy-five percent of training camp expenses will be borne by the Armenians.

5. Operations will be conducted at the metropolitan cities in Turkey. The terrorist organisation PKK that moved its bases into Northern Iraq after because of very heavy blows dealt in the transborder operations and lost all possibilities of sheltering there is known to have entered into arrangements for shifting some of its cadres to Iran and Armenia where it started an active subversive operation toward Turkey.

It has also been learned that a group of European representatives of the terrorist organisation PKK paid a visit to Armenia where they concluded an agreement with the Armenian leaders for the unhindered ingress to and egress from Kars region by their militants, that Armenia offered sheltering, monetary and equipment support to the Kurdish settlements in that country following the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the formal proclamation of the Armenian Republic. Similarly, a group of militants of the terrorist organisation PKK left Urmiah for Armenia on three vehicles on 19 and 20 May 1992 for fighting against Azerite Turks together with the Armenians.

Source: http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=49856#

[Armenian]

Christianity in Kurdistan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mXS3UQZ1vE

Jesus loves us, the Kurds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djR3Ym3V5Y0&eurl=http://kurdisharmenian.blogspot.com/2007/10/seven-days-of-prayer-of-kurds.html

Yerevan Kurd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ7bZCK67iU

And from France24: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-335857292932517366&q=armenians+kurds&total=298&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

And from Yerkir: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5542689726125413291&q=Yerkir&total=78&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Hamshen: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5542689726125413291&q=Yerkir&total=78&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

[Armenian]

As long as Armenia remains insignificant - tiny and landlocked - Armenia will be always be a nation asking major powers for mercy. As a result, Armenia will always be vulnerable and unstable. I'm not advocating 'war' with anyone, however, we Armenians need to think in the long-term. We need to set the foundations of a more powerful nation. And we need to realize that if we want to be taken seriously by the powers that be, we need to show them that we as a nation impact regional poitics and economy. Within this context, many within our community will be our worst obstacles, not the Turks.

A prosperous Armenia is not within the long term interest of the Turkish nation - simply because we Armenians want lands and reparations. No self-respecting Turk is going to willingly give away strategic lands to us Armenians. Trust me on that. Moreover, the Turks will not give us reparations because it would ruin their already small bank accounts. Moreover, giving us lands or reparations is a Pandora's box for them. Once they do it for us, it will be Assyrians, Kurds and Greeks, Cypriots lining up next.

However, the biggest fear Armenian nationalists should have is the massive economic and demographic size of Turkey. Theoretically, if the Republic of Armenia engages in open trade, and all is civil between us and the Turks, there is a great danger that the Republic of Armenia, as small and as isolated as it is, will become desperately dependent on Turkey for survival. This is the biggest long term fear that Armenia has with regards to open trade with Turkey.

I personally feel that we can not have official relations with Turkey as long as we have national demands. And, as far as I am concerned, the Armenian diaspora has demands and the Armenian Republic has demands as well, although for diplomatic reasons it will not be discussed. Moreover, I really don't see any substantial benefits for Armenia by having open borders with Turkey. Turkey produces cheap goods, nothing else. Armenia needs to concentrate on better relations with Iran, Russia and the EU. At the very least, we know that our national existence is actually within the national interests of the aforementioned.

The Turkish border is the longest, therefore, simplest, cheapest and quickest route for transporting goods. The Armenian-Georgian border is short, unstable and under-developed. The Armenian-Iranian border is tiny and Iran has serious long-term geo-political problems. Under these circumstances, the worst thing that can happen to Armenia is to have open borders and normal relations with Turks. Since we have no other stable trading partners, Turks can economically overwhelm us within a very short period of time. And once your main source of income is placed within the hands of the enemy - kiss your national interests goodbye. I am surprised more Armenians have not been able to see the long term risks in establishing normal relations with Ankara. However, I suspect that many serious political organization within Armenia and the Diaspora, especially the ARF, do see the long-term risks with having open borders with Turkey.

It is very troubling for me that we Armenians have simply forgotten that Turkey was ready to invade Armenia in 1993. This was in '1993' not in 1905 or 1918 or 1921. This was in our life time. And it was not the Ottomans, nor was it the Young Turks, it was the modern 'civilized' Turk that attempted to invade. Rest assured, power-brokers in Turkey hate us and they fear us, they would love for us to simply disappear. If is was not for the South Caucasus military command of the Russian Army at the time, Yerevan today would most probably have been a Turkish occupied city.

In short: Armenia today serves the geo-political interest of Iran and Russia and to a lesser extent the European Union. However, Armenia does not serve the long-term interests of Turkey. Obviously, a prosperous Armenia does not serve the long-term interests of Azerbaijan. And, unfortunately, a prosperous Armenia does not serve the long-term interests of the leadership within Georgia. As far as the Americans are concerned, they are in the region today, and gone tomorrow - when their 'interests' disappear. When it comes to our national issues we obviously can't trust the political establishment within Washington DC.

We Armenians need to concentrate on building closer economic and political relations with Russians, Iranians, the EU, India, China and the Arab world. Let's hope the winds of war in Iran passes soon. Let's hope Georgia gets 'liberated' by Russia. Let's hope the Armenian-Turkish border remains closed. Armenian will do well looking north and south. As a matter of fact, much to the disappointment of Ankara and Washington DC, the Armenian economy has been doing relatively well doing just that.

I reiterate:

In the short term, opening the Armenian-Turkish borders will only serve the interests of select few 'businessmen,' low wage migrant laborers and freelance prostitutes. Open borders may also in the short term lower the costs of certain imported goods into Armenia. At the same time, however, open borders in the 'long-term' means risking economic dependency on a nation that is essentially your enemy. What's more, we may also have an influx of thousands of uneducated Kurdish laborers pouring into Armenia as well.

As a result, what justice, what reparations, what lands, can we Armenians speak of when we are engaged in such 'healthy' economic relations with those who we claim were responsible for the murder of two million Armenians and the destruction of 90% of our historic lands. What's more, although we don't have a 'foreigner' problem within our society today, what will happen to our small republic when thousands of poor Anatolian Turks and Kurds begin pouring into Armenia for economic reasons?

The thing to remember is that Turkey and Azerbaijan are Armenia's most 'convenient routes for economic trade. Once Armenian trade begins to flow through Turkey and Azerbaijan, Armenia, being as small and as isolated as it is, will become dangerously dependent upon Ankara and Baku. Once we get into that 'Turkic' economic partnership Armenia as we know it will simply disappear. In other words, once you put your national interests firmly in the hands of corrupt businessmen - forget about national interests.

Some people say: What if Turkey did 'this or did that' to reconcile with Armenians. Can't we trade with them then?

I say: By the time Turkey did what they need to do in order to reconcile with Armenians - the nation of Turkey as we know it won't exist.

As far as I know no self-respecting Turk is willing to give us a sincere apology, nor will they give us appropriate reparations, one that must run into many billions of US dollars, and nor will they give us a healthy portion of eastern Turkey. Thus, do you really think Ankara will have good economic intentions, let alone any other good intentions towards Armenia? Therefore, don't count on Turkey apologizing and don't count on them giving reparation or lands. As a result, we don't need the borders open for reasons of our national interests.

Personally, I would 'not' want to see 'friendly' relations with Turks under such conditions.

Armenian

[Armenian]

WILSONIAN ARMENIA

http://www.armeniapedia.org/images/d/dd/Wilsonian.jpg

Remembering Woodrow: “Wilson Month” reflected on US president’s lobby for Armenia

“I realize that I’m calling on Congress to make a very serious choice . . . Our recognition of Armenia’s independence will mean true freedom and guaranteed happiness for its people...”

One of the politicians most respected by the Armenian people, 28th president of the United States Woodrow Wilson signed under these words in his speech to the U.S. Congress in May 1920. In November 2006, different establishments of the republic marked the 150th birthday anniversary of the great humanist and Nobel Peace Prize winner.

“The pages of Armenian history do not remember any other such influential politician on the world scale as Wilson who would assert Armenia’s interests in the world arena with such adherence to principles and dedication,” Dean of the Department of Law at the American University of Armenia (AUA), Professor Tom Samuelian said on November 3. That day marked the start of the Wilson Days in Armenia. Dean of the AUA Department of Political Science and International Relations Lusig Danielian and doctor of political science Armen Ayvazyan also made reports.

Woodrow Wilson’s proposal concerning the definition of the border between Armenia and Turkey according to the decision of the San Remo conference and the Sevre Peace Treaty (August 1920) is called in diplomacy “Wilson’s Arbitration Regime”. Under the Sevre Treaty the signatories agreed to leave it to the U.S. discretion to define the border between Armenia and Turkey with Armenia’s ensured gateway to the Black Sea. On November 22, 1920, at the suggestion of Woodrow Wilson it was decided to draw the Armenian-Turkish border through Van, Bitlis and Mush and farther through Yerznka to provide Armenia with a convenient gateway to the Black Sea. The U.S. president himself signed off on this map of Armenia.

“Wilson’s Arbitration Regime” – the declaration of the new Armenian statehood, Western Armenia, on the ruins of the collapsed Ottoman Empire – was not translated into reality as republican Turkey of Mustafa Kemal together with Bolshevist Russia waged persevering struggle against the items of the Sevre Treaty and imposed a war on Armenia as a result of which the government of the First Armenian (Eastern) Republic was overthrown and a Soviet regime was established in the country. In the same year of 1920, the authorities of Armenia signed the Alexandropol Agreement and renounced the points of the Sevre Treaty.

However, different interpretations then appeared also among the Antanta allies. In particular, still on April 29, 1920, British Prime Minister D. Lloyd George, speaking at the House of Commons, said: “... As for Armenia, it proved to be a problem of extreme difficulty. The difficulty – and hardly need to say it to the friends of Armenia – is connected with the circumstance that there is no Armenian population in some of the vast areas which we wanted to hand over to Armenia and for getting which Armenia has historical reasons. But if they are transferred to Armenia, who will realize our decisions?” Later he would confess: “Oil outweighed the blood of Armenians.”

“Wilson Month” in Armenia was marked also by another event. In November, Armenia’s former ambassador extraordinary and plenipotentiary to Canada Ara Papian declared that there are all preconditions for the establishment of legal protectorate over the historical Armenian lands situated in the territory of modern-day Turkey. As he said, the Armenian side should turn to the judicial instances of the United Nations.

“Our country should seek recognition of the validity of the Sevre Treaty, as only this document was signed by the authorities during the period when Armenia still was an entity of international law,” Papian said. “If Armenia’s legal protectorate over a part of the territory of modern Turkey gains international recognition, then it will be possible to get the right of use of the transit ways situated in the territory of historical Armenia and also sue British Petroleum for the construction of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline without coordination with the Republic of Armenia.”

“Ara Papian’s approach is quite realistic,” Giro Manoyan, a senior member of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation Bureau in charge of the “Armenian Cause”, said, supporting the opinion of Armenia’s ex ambassador. “According to clause 89 of the Sevre Treaty, the right to draw a border between Armenia and Turkey was given to U.S. President Woodrow Wilson, and he allocated a territory of 160,000 square kilometers to Armenia,” Manoyan reminded.

Official Yerevan does not yet have a common state approach to this matter in its diplomatic arsenal. On April 18, 2005, Armenia’s Foreign Minister Vardan Oskanian stated: “The issue of the international recognition of the Genocide was and still remains on Armenia’s foreign policy agenda. I don’t know whether the next president of Armenia will raise the territorial issue. Let the next head of Armenian state speak about subsequent claims.”

The position of Armenian President Robert Kocharyan is interesting in this sense. Speaking on the same subject, as a rule he notes: “The question of the recognition of the Genocide and the question of territorial claims are two different problems and have no direct relations to each other. The question of territorial claims to Turkey should be regarded not in the aspect of Turkey’s recognizing the Genocide, but within the framework of the Sevre Peace Treaty.”

Source: http://www.armenianow.com/?action=viewArticle&IID=1109&CID=1949&AID=1881&lng=eng&PHPSESSID=0f2c6b8e1

[Armenian]

GIRO MANOYAN: WE MUST MAKE NOT ONLY MORAL, BUT ALSO TERRITORIAL DEMANDS OF TURKEY

http://www.yerkir.am/interview/8.jpg

Currently the matter is not so much in recognizing the Armenian Genocide, as recognizing the responsibility of the Turkish government for that crime,” “Hay Dat” office head Giro Manoyan stated to a press conference in Yerevan. He said, Today Turkey tries to increase his value both for the U.S. and the European community. “Armenia’s foreign policy is clear and right in this connection: we do not put preconditions and are sure the opening of borders must not be connected with the Armenian Genocide, though ARF Dashnaktsutyun thinks if someone has the right for preconditions, it is Armenia and not Turkey. Nevertheless, I am sure our government is on the right way,” Manoyan stressed. He also added ARF Dashnaktsutyun thinks it necessary to make not only moral, but also territorial demands of Turkey. “Turkey has problems with all his neighbors – with Armenia, Greece, Iraq. Sooner or later all those demands will be made,” the “Hay Dat” office head said.

Source: http://www.armtown.com/news/en/pan/20070423/21990/

Armenian Tashnak Party: 'Armenian territories' will come off Turkey sooner or later

Armenian Tashnak Party claimed that the eastern and south-eastern provinces of Turkey will come off Turkey, Armenian Yerkir reported. Kiro Manoyan, ARF Bureau’s Hay Dat and Political Affairs Office Director, by naming the Eastern provinces of Turkey as 'Western Armenia', said "Armenians should be ready to take back what belongs to them". Armenian Tashnak Party also supports the Kurdish separatist terrorism in Turkey. Almost 20 percent of Azerbaijani territories have been under Armenian occupation for about 16 years. Armenian nationalists also claim the south-eastern part of Georgia as part of motherland Armenia. Armenian Constitution does not recognise Turkey's national borders. As Armenia repeats its irredentist claims over Turkish and other neighbouring territories, Turkey closed its Armenian border to protest Armenian aggressive policies.

Source: http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=50631#

[Armenian]

Woodrow Wilson’s arbitration award important for Russia

http://img.epochtimes.com/i5/401163847450--ss.jpg
Armenian Historian And Diplomat Ara Papian

“Russia should understand that realization of Woodrow Wilson’s arbitration award is very important, since it meets all security demands in the South Caucasus. It’s high time to come to decision,” historian and diplomat Ara Papian said in an interview with PanARMENIAN.Net. “The Russian power is divided in two groups. One wants close relationship with Turkey proceeding from personal profit, the other upholds security issues in the light of Turkish nationalism. Actually, if the international community understands that the time to recognize the arbitration award has come, it will be to interest of Russia, Armenia and even Iran,” he said. “Interest in the decision is being observed, since it could become an extra tool of pressure on Turkey. According to the Treaty of Sevres, military monitoring units should be deployed in Turkey and this could deprive the latter of the possibility to uncontrolledly build up arms,” he said.

Source: http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=24188

No one canceled Sevr Treaty on Armenia

After conclusion of the Sevr Treaty on August 10, 1920 borders with independent Armenia had to be set by a neutral mediator – the United States. In this view, representatives of UK, France and Italy appealed to U.S. President Woodrow Wilson for an arbitration award on the Armenian-Turkish border. Mr Wilson outlined Armenia’s territory of 110 square km,” Ara Papyan, orientalist, specialist in international law and Armenia’s former Ambassador to Canada told a news conference in Yerevan. “The arbitration award on the Armenian-Turkish border is an international agreement which is not subject to appeal and restriction of time. The big Parisian Four addressed a joint note to the U.S. President in order to determine Armenian and Turkish borders on the territory of Van, Bitlis, Erzrum and Trapezund,” Papyan said.

The fate of the arbitration award is not bound with the ratification of the Sevr treaty, according to him. “Westerman’s committee responsible for determination of borders was formed in the U.S. Congress. The map and award affixed by the state seal marking the significance of the documents are kept in the U.S. Congress Library. Another committee dealing with the demarcation of borders at the site was headed by Henry Morgenthau, the U.S. Ambassador to Turkey in the times of the Armenian Genocide in the Ottoman Empire,” the Armenian diplomat said. However, Papyan noted, November 29 the 11th Red Army entered Armenia and the First Republic stopped existence as an international element. “That is why the conditions of the Sevr and Lausanne treaties were not fulfilled. The USSR was not the assignee of the Republic of Armenia,” he said.

Source: http://www.panarmenian.net/news/arm/?nid=22212

De jure Boundary between Turkey and Armenia: as Determined by Woodrow Wilson, President of the United States of America

By Ara A. Papian

No other single issue has aroused so much passion and controversy and occupied the attention of the present Armenian public and political life as the relationship with Turkey. The lawful claims of Armenians for moral satisfaction, financial indemnification and territorial readjustment, remain the longest, most intractable, and potentially one of the most dangerous unsolved problems of international relations and world community of the modern times.

The emergence of the Armenian state – the Republic of Armenia, and its presence on the world political stage as the successor of the first Armenian Republic (1918-1920), adds a critical dimension to the matter. The importance of the new dimension is based on the fact that as a subject of international law the Republic of Armenia is in full power and has all legal rights to pursue the implementation of the legal instruments and to insist on the fulfillment of international obligations assumed by the Turkish states – the Republic of Turkey or the Ottoman Empire, as a legal predecessor of the Turkish Republic.

It is therefore imperative to analyze all relevant legal instruments, i.e. bilateral and multilateral treaties, Woodrow Wilson’s Arbitral Award (November 22, 1920), diplomatic documents and international papers, resolutions of international organizations, recommendations of special missions, decisions of law-determining agencies (particularly of the International Court of Justice), the opinions of authoritative institutions, etc. to clarify the legal state of Armenian-Turkish confrontation and determinate the legal aspects of the Armenian claims regarding Turkey.

Due to final and binding character of the arbitral awards it seems the most appropriate to begin the elaboration of the legal instruments with the arbitral award of the President of the United States of America Woodrow Wilson (November 22, 1920): “Decision of the President of the United States of America respecting the Frontier between Turkey and Armenia, Access for Armenia to the Sea, and the Demilitarization of Turkish Territory adjacent to the Armenian Frontier.”


1. Arbitration as a procedure for peaceful settlement of disputes between the States Arbitration exists under both domestic and international law, and arbitration can be carried out between private individuals, between states, or between states and private individuals. Arbitration, in the law, is a legal alternative to the courts whereby the parties to a dispute agree to submit their respective positions (through agreement or hearing) to a neutral third party - the arbitrator(s) for resolution.

International Public Arbitration (hereafter- Arbitration) is an effective legal procedure for dispute settlement between the states . According to 1953 report of the International Law Commission arbitration is a procedure for the settlement of disputes between States by a binding award on the basis of law and as a result of an undertaking voluntary accepted .The essential elements of Arbitration consist in – (1) An agreement on the part of States having a matter, or several matters, in dispute, to refer the decision of them to a tribunal, believed to be impartial, and constituted in such a way as the terms of the agreement specify, and to abide by its judgment; and in – (2) Consent on the part of the person, persons, or states, nominated for the tribunal, to conduct the inquiry and to deliver judgment.

Arbitration has been practiced already in antiquity and in the middle ages. The history of modern arbitration is usually considered to begin with the treaty of arbitration between Great Britain and the United States of 1794 , /Jay’s Treaty - Treaty of Amity, Commerce and Navigation, between His Britannic Majesty and the United States of America, by their President, Signed on November 19, 1794, ratified on June 24, 1795/. The rules of arbitration were codified by The Hague Convention for the Pacific Settlement of International Disputes, concluded on July 29th, 1899, and very slightly amended in the Convention of the same name concluded October 18th, 1907 (entered into force January 26, 1910). The Hague Convention [Article 15 of 1899 and article 37 of 1907] defines the international arbitration as: “the settlement of disputes between States by judges of their own choice and on the basis of respect of law”.
The Covenant of the League of Nations (Article 13) provides arbitration and judicial settlement as one of two major procedures of peaceful settlements:

The Members of the League agree that whenever any dispute shall arise between them which they recognize to be suitable for submission to arbitration and which cannot be satisfactorily settled by diplomacy they will submit the whole subject-matter to arbitration. The Charter of the United Nations [Article 33, paragraph 1] expresses its preference for a dispute settlement through arbitration: “The parties in any dispute, the continuance of which is likely to endanger the maintenance of international peace an security, shall, first of all, seek a solution by negotiation, enquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or arrangements, or other peaceful means of their own choice.”

2. The Historical Background of Wilson’s Arbitration On January 19, 1920, the Supreme Council of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers in Paris (Prime Ministers of Great Britain, France and Italy; respectively-Mr. Lloyd George, Mr. Clemenceau and Mr. Nitti ) agreed to recognize the government of the Armenian State as a de facto government on the condition that the recognition should not prejudge the question of the eventual frontier . The United States recognized the de facto government of the Republic of Armenia on April 23, 1920 , on the condition that the territorial frontiers should be left for later determination.

[...]

Ottawa, April 24, 2006

[Armenian]

Is Armenia’s non-recognition of Turkey’s borders main obstacle to normalization of Turkish-Armenian relations?

The number of Armenians willing normalization of relations with Turkey has increased recently, head of the department of international relations at University of Economic and Technology, professor Mustafa Aydin said in an interview with PanARMENIAN.Net. “Of course, problems still exist. One of them is Armenia’s recognition of present-day Turkey’s borders, according to the Treaty of Kars. The second is the tragedy of 1915 which is viewed by many Turks as history having nothing in common with the modern Turkish State. The 1915 events shouldn’t hamper the Armenia-Turkey public dialog,” he said. Armenians from Diaspora insisting on recognition of the 1915 events as Genocide pose obstacle to the dialog, according to him. “Armenians in Armenia and more tolerant and it’s easier to hold talks with them. But it’s my personal opinion,” prof. Aydin remarked.

Source: http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=26187

[Armenian]

Since we are haveing another infestation of Turks here, I wanted to resurrect this thread once more...

[jgk3]

good idea.

[SoyElTurco]

Whether or not Armenia develops and nuclear bomb




Nukes? You want a nuke race? Turkey is already considering to build a nuclear reactor for energy purposes. If Armenia acquires a bomb, then Turkey will respond likewise.

You want to nuke your ancestral lands that you want to retake?

[yerazhishda]

Nukes? You want a nuke race? Turkey is already considering to build a nuclear reactor for energy purposes. If Armenia acquires a bomb, then Turkey will respond likewise.

You want to nuke your ancestral lands that you want to retake?

No we just want to nuke downtown Constantinople and Ankara. :naughty:

[SoyElTurco]

No we just want to nuke downtown Constantinople and Ankara. :naughty:

i dont think anyone is dumb enough to start a nuclear war. so you dont consider Istanbul or Western Turkey to be apart of you ancestral lands?

[yerazhishda]

i dont think anyone is dumb enough to start a nuclear war. so you dont consider Istanbul or Western Turkey to be apart of you ancestral lands?

No of course not. Armenians only consider from Karabagh to a little west of Kharpert (Elazig) to be ancestral Armenian lands in terms of length from east-west.

This should help:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/TreatyOfSevres_%28corrected%29.PNG

[truAnatolian]

i dont think anyone is dumb enough to start a nuclear war. so you dont consider Istanbul or Western Turkey to be apart of you ancestral lands?

Nope. Eastern Turkey is though.

[skhara]

so you dont consider Istanbul or Western Turkey to be apart of you ancestral lands?

Uhhh nooo. those are greek.

[Palavra]

Good luck!! I am with you..!!! But map is a little wrong, It should include yozgat and exclude trabzon.(I am not saying this because I am from trabzon.)

Hmm, I should add that I prefer russian occupation because of their superb girls..



Anyway, It looks like there is not enough job at armenia so You can waste your time with such stupid threads.. You should liberate your brain from past before liberation of armenia..

[Shaumian]

Greater Armenia revanchists are not being realistic. It's worth remembering that the region where Armenians have lived has been mixed for centuries. In the 1800s, Turks and Kurds were the majority in Yerevan, Armenians were the majority Tiflis, and Russians and Armenians together formed the majority in Baku. Eastern Anatolia had an Armenian minority.

[ArmSurvival]

Just to address your points:

Turks and Kurds were never a majority in Yerevan. In the 18th and part of the early 19th century, Muslims were around an 80% majority, but most of them were Persian Shiites. Then came Turks and Kurds. It is worth noting that many of those Kurds were either nomadic or semi-nomadic, and same goes for some of the Turks. Of course all of this was a temporary reality because of the habit of Persian rulers to displace and relocate entire Armenian cities at once (Julfa is a good example).

Eastern Anatolia is a term created by the Turkish political elite during the 20th century in their steadfast crusade to rid any name within their country of having a non-Turkic origin. The correct term, not just politically (until WWI), but geographically, until today, is western Armenia. "East Anatolia" has nothing to do with Anatolia, it is on the same plateau as modern Armenia, which is separate from Anatolia. The term "East Anatolia" is essentially on par with other fake terms/theories created by the Turkish political elite, like the comical Sun Language Theory.

As for the realism... When South Ossetia was granted the status of autonomy, its population was less than 40% Ossetian, and now they are independent. Palestine went from an 8% J ewish population to an 8% non-J ewish population within one generation. Mongolia was ruled by China, but they became independent despite being sqeezed between Russia and China, and they even have a large autonomous region within modern China itself. Whats my point? Never lose hope, unger...

[Shaumian]

The term "East Anatolia" is essentially on par with other fake terms/theories created by the Turkish political elite, like the comical Sun Language Theory.
What I meant by eastern Anatolia is that part of pre-1914 Anatolia with large numbers of Armenians and Kurds. The point is that Armenians and other peoples of the region have long lived in mixed areas and that aspirations of homogeneous national states are unrealistic and dangerous. The land belongs not to any one particular nation, but to all those who live in it.

[gmd]

What I meant by eastern Anatolia is that part of pre-1914 Anatolia with large numbers of Armenians and Kurds. The point is that Armenians and other peoples of the region have long lived in mixed areas and that aspirations of homogeneous national states are unrealistic and dangerous. The land belongs not to any one particular nation, but to all those who live in it.


does it hurt when your heart bleeds?

[jgk3]

Only when you have the power to claim something, could you claim it in your name.

If I claimed a forest as mine, then left it to go home, I can call it mine all I want but it will continue to be inhabited by all its wildlife, the actual organisms that live there and call it home. If however, with power, I seek to make it mine for keeps, I can bring in a bulldozer, destroy the wildlife, and bingo... Now you can't question who's influence dominates it.

That's what Turks did to Armenia, that's what Armenia would have to do to Turkey if it wishes to gain those lands. Armenia cannot do this directly, let alone singlehandedly, it can only hope to achieve this in conjunction with the greater political mess that plagues the region, the presence of Kurds seeking autonomy. Then somehow it would have to give Kurds the short end of the stick concerning the regions in question.

Russia, and to a lesser extent, Iran, for the time being, are the keykeepers when it comes to rewarding and punishing nations of the Caucasus, so I'd also expect them to have to give us their blessings should Armenians ever hope (in the foreseeable future) to establish Armenia again on those lands.

[ArmSurvival]

What I meant by eastern Anatolia is that part of pre-1914 Anatolia with large numbers of Armenians and Kurds.

This is true. However, you need to ask yourself how large numbers of Kurds were able to settle themselves in the region in the first place. They did so largely by colluding with the Ottoman authorities to encroach upon Armenian lands, taking people hostage, burning and looting Armenian cities and towns, destroying countless businesses and industries, wiping out entire villages, and enforcing a tax upon the Armenian people, seperate from the already high taxes Armenians had to pay to the Ottomans for being non-Muslim. The Kurdish taxation was basically a ransom-- if Armenians paid, the Kurds would refrain from destoying their homes. If they didn't pay, the Kurds would have to get their hands dirty. This culminated in, but was not restricted to, the Hamidian massacres in which Kurdish chieftains and irregulars turned western Armenia into a butcher shop with the help of the Turkish government. This is how Kurds spread rapidly from northern Iraq and south of Lake Van (their traditional lands) all the way to Van, Ararat, Kars, Erzerum, etc, in a matter of decades. So lets not be so kind to the Kurds by calling western Armenia "East Anatolia" and by attributing it to them by default, just because of their habit of stealing land. The modern Kurds of that region are largely the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation of muderers, thieves and squatters.



The point is that Armenians and other peoples of the region have long lived in mixed areas and that aspirations of homogeneous national states are unrealistic and dangerous.

In the hypothetical case of western Armenia being liberated, no one is saying that it would be a homogenous region. If Kurds and Turks want to live there then they can continue to do so-- the main difference is the official language will be Armenian and their taxes will go to the Armenian state as opposed to Ankara.


The land belongs not to any one particular nation, but to all those who live in it.

Yes, and only those who have raped and pillaged the local Armenians have had the advantage of successfully living in that region. Our goal, in my opinion, is to simply regain our right to our stolen and destroyed property. However, this should not be viewed as compensation-- if someone burned down your backyard and stole it, its not compensation to have the charred remains returned to you. If large numbers of Armenians relinquish their claim on these properties, then the final phase of the genocide will have succeeded.

[Icy]

One day, we will have all of our lands back.
It may look far away, but it won't be.