News about Protocols... etc.

[Eddo211]

Re: News about Protocols... etc.

They turned it down.

“If the head of Armenia wants to eliminate the threat of use of force [by Azerbaijan,] then let him eliminate the causes that can lead to the use of force.....Namely, to withdraw Armenian forces from Azerbaijan’s occupied territories.”

Tensions are picking up as it seems.

[Haykakan]

Re: News about Protocols... etc.

The Voice of Russia
March 21 2010

Armenia proposes a non-aggression pact with Azerbaijan

Boris Pavlishchev Mar 21, 2010 12:45 Moscow Time


Armenian President Serge Sargsyan has appealed to Azerbaijan to sign a
non-aggression pact which he hopes would prepare the ground for
continued talks about the future of Nagorno Karabakh - an Armenian
enclave which declared its independence from Azerbaijan in the wake of
the 1992 Soviet breakup.

In an interview with Euronews Sargsyan said that non-use of force is
an underlying principle of international law, which holds the key to a
lasting settlement of the long-running territorial dispute.

In an earlier conciliatory move towards Baku, the Armenian leader said
he was ready to accept the modified Madrid Principles of solving the
conflict. Azeri President Ilkham Aliyev responded by saying the
negotiations were already in their final stage but insisted on the
return of all Karabakh territories and the withdrawal of the Armenian
forces stationed there.

All this meaning that Armenia is ready for a compromise, to give back
the areas around Nagorno Karabakh it seized during the brief war of
the early 1990s, and also to give the region a temporary status as
stipulated by the Madrid agreements the Armenian and Azeri president
were handed during the 2007 OSCE summit.

Simultaneously, President Sargsyan reiterated his country's
longstanding premise about the people of Nagorno-Karabakh having every
right to self-determination, adding that Karabakh was artificially
appended to Azerbaijan during the Soviet times and Armenia could not
just give it up.

"In Moscow Carnegie Center expert Alexei Malashenko does not believe
the conflict will be settled any time soon. An economically successful
Azerbaijan sees itself as a South Caucasus superpower, which can use
its enormous material, human and military potential to achieve its
goals - hence its consistent refusal to give any ground on the Nagorno
Karabakh issue".

At the same time, Malashenko does not think a new war is imminent
because neither Russia nor Europe will let it happen. Neither will
Turkey, which 17 years ago broke off diplomatic relations with Armenia
precisely over Nagorno Karabakh. Which means that the international
community should show maximum understanding for the two sides'
positions on the issue, no matter how different they may be, and work
hard to get the settlement process going.

Russia, both independently and as part of the OSCE, plays an active
mediatory role here having already hosted several trilateral summits
to deal with the matter. In 2008 Russian, Armenian and Azeri
presidents signed a declaration underscoring their shared desire to
resolve the conflict on the basis of international law. The latest
such meeting was in January in Sochi where the sides agreed to offer
their own proposals in addition to those made in Madrid.

http://english.ruvr.ru/2010/03/21/5487529.html

[Haykakan]

Re: News about Protocols... etc.

TURKISH FM REVEALS ITS TRUE FACE: PROTOCOLS WILL NOT BE SENT TO PARLIAMENT BEFORE APRIL 24

news.am
March 5 2010
Armenia

Turkish Foreign Ministry expressed a hope that Resolution #252 on
recognition of Armenian genocide by U.S. House Committee on Foreign
Affairs will not be included on the agenda of the U.S. Congress
plenary session.

According to Turkish diplomatic sources, it is essential not to
submit Armenia-Turkey Protocols to Turkish Parliament before April 24,
Turkish Haber7 website reports.

Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu will organize a press
conference following the adoption of Armenian Resolution. Earlier,
Turkish FM said Turkey will not make decisions under the pressure.

[Armanen]

Re: News about Protocols... etc.

Sargsyan has played his cards well, and right now a lot of diplomatic pressure is on officla ankara to make something happen.

And jos, as Sev explained to you, it is turkey that views Armenia as a hostile nation and thus we are forced to do the same. Not to mention the fact that a country which denies it killed 1.5 million of your people 95 years after the fact, still mistreats its minorties, i.e. kurds, why would Armenians view turks in a favorable light?

[Jos]

Re: News about Protocols... etc.

No disagreement with what you just said, but we can legitimately say that they are our enemies. Not because we are stubborn, nor ignorant, but because it's a sad fact that we all wish wasn't. To say otherwise is ignorance, and 'no clever wording or political maneuvering is going to' change this fact. If that wasn't the case, why would Turkey blockade their border with Armenia? They are in no way involved in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. "Azerbaijanis" always say "Turks and us are different." So then why is Turkey meddling in our affair with "Azerbaijan"? It's during that very conflict that Turkey spread the "one nation, two states" propaganda. Only to create an opportunity to suffocate Armenia. They used whatever reason they found to make it possible because Nagorno-Karabakh is more than a simple conflict. It's symbolic, too. Armenians always struggle to resist assimilation by trying to make a livable home for the scattered Armenians, to reach the dream of reconstructing a glorious Armenia. Our first step to reaching our goal was the independence of Armenia. Our second step was our victory in Nagorno-Karabakh. If this goes on, slowly, but surely, we are walking towards the rise of Armenia. Which is why Azerbaijan is so persistent about the conflict: Turks know that what will ultimately follow the rise of Armenia is the partitioning of Turkey. It's either this or the last pages of Armenian history.* And we know very well what works in favor of Turkey. Today, Turkey faces a UN member who accuses it of genocide. Armenia is the only wall between Turkey and their pan-turanist dream. The more Armenia is prosperous, the sharper the stone in Turkey's shoes (in other words, the more they will regret 1915). And that's what the blockade is for. To make Armenia non-livable, keep the diaspora away from it, and encourage Hayastancis to leave. We are not wanted in our homelands.

These protocols are nothing. There is nothing about peace in them. The only reason Turkey would want their ratification is because so-called Eastern Anatolia (aka occupied and ethnically cleansed Armenia) suffers because of the blockade. But Turkey goes beyond simply opening the borders to develop its east, it takes advantage of its power in order to impose unfair conditions on Armenia (put the reality of the genocide to question, and forget Western Armenia).** Kill three birds with one stone. In other words, all this talk about "historical event: long time enemies beginning friendship" is bull excrement. It's what you were referring to as 'clever wording.'

* "If we lose Karabakh [Artsakh], we will be turning the last pages of our history."
-Monte Melkonian

** "In this world, you need power to have a say."
-Khrimian Hayrig

Your view of 'enemies' is a sad indictment on the state of relations between Turks and Armenians 95 years after the events. Without a change of mentality first, no document will ever guarantee security or prosperity. So the only benefit with these protocols that I could see was that it would have facilitated greater interaction via open borders, trade etc, with the rest being lots of empty words (like you said, bull excrement). Nothing was ever going to stop Armenians from seeking recognition anyway.

And you’re wrong about a prosperous Armenia being a sharp stone in Turkey’s shoes. Quite the contrary, it would be like a soft cushion in Turkey's shoe. The region needs a prosperous Armenia, Russia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Greece, Turkey etc. Prosperous neighbors do not start wars, they do not threaten each others security, they don't undermine each other, blockade or damage each other economies. Wealthy neigbors protect each other because it's in their own interests to keep stable neighbors. Poor countries start trouble and hurt each other because they have nothing to lose.

The breakdown of the protocols could be disastrous for Armenia. It could leave it more economically isolated in the region and increase the possibility of conflict with Azerbaijan. Other than the diaspora who get to keep the 'dream alive' i.e. siege mentality, I don't see anything good coming out of it. I like Sarkissian but think he's played this very poorly in this instance. He should have waited till Turkey ratified the protocols before getting the constitutional ruling. He may have showed his cards to early.

[SevSpitak]

Re: News about Protocols... etc.

When neighbors still persist with viewing each other as "enemies" what are the point of protocols anyway? No amount of clever wording or political maneuvering is going to lead to peace and prosperity.

No disagreement with what you just said, but we can legitimately say that they are our enemies. Not because we are stubborn, nor ignorant, but because it's a sad fact that we all wish wasn't. To say otherwise is ignorance, and 'no clever wording or political maneuvering is going to' change this fact. If that wasn't the case, why would Turkey blockade their border with Armenia? They are in no way involved in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. "Azerbaijanis" always say "Turks and us are different." So then why is Turkey meddling in our affair with "Azerbaijan"? It's during that very conflict that Turkey spread the "one nation, two states" propaganda. Only to create an opportunity to suffocate Armenia. They used whatever reason they found to make it possible because Nagorno-Karabakh is more than a simple conflict. It's symbolic, too. Armenians always struggle to resist assimilation by trying to make a livable home for the scattered Armenians, to reach the dream of reconstructing a glorious Armenia. Our first step to reaching our goal was the independence of Armenia. Our second step was our victory in Nagorno-Karabakh. If this goes on, slowly, but surely, we are walking towards the rise of Armenia. Which is why Azerbaijan is so persistent about the conflict: Turks know that what will ultimately follow the rise of Armenia is the partitioning of Turkey. It's either this or the last pages of Armenian history.* And we know very well what works in favor of Turkey. Today, Turkey faces a UN member who accuses it of genocide. Armenia is the only wall between Turkey and their pan-turanist dream. The more Armenia is prosperous, the sharper the stone in Turkey's shoes (in other words, the more they will regret 1915). And that's what the blockade is for. To make Armenia non-livable, keep the diaspora away from it, and encourage Hayastancis to leave. We are not wanted in our homelands.

These protocols are nothing. There is nothing about peace in them. The only reason Turkey would want their ratification is because so-called Eastern Anatolia (aka occupied and ethnically cleansed Armenia) suffers because of the blockade. But Turkey goes beyond simply opening the borders to develop its east, it takes advantage of its power in order to impose unfair conditions on Armenia (put the reality of the genocide to question, and forget Western Armenia).** Kill three birds with one stone. In other words, all this talk about "historical event: long time enemies beginning friendship" is bull excrement. It's what you were referring to as 'clever wording.'

* "If we lose Karabakh [Artsakh], we will be turning the last pages of our history."
-Monte Melkonian

** "In this world, you need power to have a say."
-Khrimian Hayrig

[Jos]

Re: News about Protocols... etc.

Barev Anoush jan, good to see you post.

I think is very good that people and organizations started voicing their disapproval of the situation and that is what democracy is about, oesn't matter right or wrong. Plus is sends a message to our leaders that we are conscious and awake. As far as ARF, I won’t be surprised if they were in on it from beginning to create a false atmosphere in the eyes of our enemies. I am not saying this is true, just saying I won’t be surprised if it were true.

When neighbors still persist with viewing each other as "enemies" what are the point of protocols anyway? No amount of clever wording or political maneuvering is going to lead to peace and prosperity.

[Anoush]

Re: News about Protocols... etc.

Barev Anoush jan, good to see you post.

I think is very good that people and organizations started voicing their disapproval of the situation and that is what democracy is about, oesn't matter right or wrong. Plus is sends a message to our leaders that we are conscious and awake. As far as ARF, I won’t be surprised if they were in on it from beginning to create a false atmosphere in the eyes of our enemies. I am not saying this is true, just saying I won’t be surprised if it were true.

Parev Eddo jan, thanks it's good to be here.

I won't be surprised of anything anymore Eddo. Who knows, perhaps the government and all the parties knew how all this was going to work out, of course knowing the enemy good and well, and maybe ARF too did what they did to create a false atmosphere for the enemy... who know but it's a thought. Whatever it was I am beginning somehow to have a feeling of relief. I remember that Charles Aznavour and a few of our intellectuals were asking the nation (both Diasporans and from our Homeland) to go along with our government. It's all coming back to me now, those guys knew it and knowing how it was going to turn out, that's why they asked all of us to go along with Sarkissian.

[Eddo211]

Re: News about Protocols... etc.

You are right on Londontsi. If even a little bit he at least talked to some of the political parties like the ARF and let them in on it; he would not have earned that "tavajan" title; even for 6 months up to a year. We were all scared for our Homeland and Artsakh and for a very good reason. I said so at least a couple of times on these forums; that at the end I hope that I will be wrong and the ones who believed in him were right. For the sake of course of our beloved Armenia and Artsakh.

Now I am very happy indeed that he came around or whatever it is it happened that he is very much pro Armenia and both his speeches at Chatham House were excellent. Thank God!!!!!! Now we can sleep in peace!!!!

Barev Anoush jan, good to see you post.

I think is very good that people and organizations started voicing their disapproval of the situation and that is what democracy is about, oesn't matter right or wrong. Plus is sends a message to our leaders that we are conscious and awake. As far as ARF, I won’t be surprised if they were in on it from beginning to create a false atmosphere in the eyes of our enemies. I am not saying this is true, just saying I won’t be surprised if it were true.

[Anoush]

Re: News about Protocols... etc.

Had he managed his vanity he would not have ended in that position.

His attitude that "I am majority and I can do what I like" got him in that sh.it.
For the good of the whole nation I hope that will be a good lesson for present and future leaders.

I do not believe he ever was a tavajan but that is the only way his decisions could have been described.

We have to be thankful for our constitution ( not S.S) for saving us from that catastrophic blunder.

You are right on Londontsi. If even a little bit he at least talked to some of the political parties like the ARF and let them in on it; he would not have earned that "tavajan" title; even for 6 months up to a year. We were all scared for our Homeland and Artsakh and for a very good reason. I said so at least a couple of times on these forums; that at the end I hope that I will be wrong and the ones who believed in him were right. For the sake of course of our beloved Armenia and Artsakh.

Now I am very happy indeed that he came around or whatever it is it happened that he is very much pro Armenia and both his speeches at Chatham House were excellent. Thank God!!!!!! Now we can sleep in peace!!!!