Conference Debat Exposition

[Կարմիր Բ]

Ouch.

[bell-the-cat]

Death is preferable to living without dignity. Destruction is preferable to desecration.

Thanks. I'll quote that whenever I need to cite an example of Assus Armenicus in relation to cultural monuments. It's encouraging that though I couldn't see the creatures I could still estimate their size and shape before they even uttered a sound - but having now concrete evidence of their existence helps.

[TomServo]

What a grouch.

[Siamanto]

I can show you a church that is now used as a furniture warehouse, a church that is used as a Chinese retaurant, a church that is used as a house - all not more than 15 minutes from where I live, which is not Turkey. The key is that the future of all these buildings are safeguarded because they serve a useful purpose.

That is the case in most European cities and many American. What does that prove Straw Man manufacturer?
Those churches were not converted as a result of killing, looting and violence.
In Europe and to a lesser degree in America, there's a genuine appreciation of cultural monuments. That is not the case in TEMPORARILY SO CALLED Turkey. *urks are known to be the most destructive force and nation in History.
Anybody who thinks that covering frescos with "chalk" would make it look cleaner cannot be trusted for the safeguard of historic monuments.

You, like the organisers of the above exhibition, are someone who justs wants to exploit Armenian monuments in Turkey for your very juvenille political fantasies - you care nothing for their actual preservation.

Of course, anybody who may disturb your agenda is juvenile and has no appreciation of historical monuments! You're becoming a bit laughable. Frustrated that we may be annoying your *urkish friends?

PS. I will write to TV5 and tell those who have participated in the creation of the documentary how juvenile they are.

If an otherwise dissused church is used as a mosque, or a barn, or any purpose that does not damage its essential characteristics, then that use should be encouraged.

Keep in mind that those are Armenian monuments and belong to our heritage. It is up to us to decide of their faith.
As for the condition of their "essential characteristics," next week, I will make sure to find some time to locate and scan pictures that show in what conditions are some of those churches.

Note: I have chosen to auto censor the words "*urk" or "*urkish" because it is commonly perceived as unpleasant and offending, evokes unpleasant emotions and imagery and is pregnant with immoral and evil connotations!

[Siamanto]

You have not got a clue about any of the buildings you are talking about. You have no clue as to their size, locations, conditions, ages, cultural values, uniqueness or otherwise, etc. 90% of the surviving intact churches are actually from the 17th-19th century

Would you care to enlighten us? Some of us may know otherwise, Straw Man manufacturer. Jurks may appreciate you, because your Straw Men are of mediocre quality, such as theirs.

[Siamanto]

Some if not most of these churches are so old that if they're not used for Christian worship, they should not be used at all and should preserved/valued/maintained as pieces of cultural and architectural treasure. .

You have not got a clue about any of the buildings you are talking about. You have no clue as to their size, locations, conditions, ages, cultural values, uniqueness or otherwise, etc. 90% of the surviving intact churches are actually from the 17th-19th century.

How typical! Another arrogant Anglo-Saxon who, because he/she has read a couple of books about the region and has made a couple of visits, has convinced himself/herself that he/she understands better than natives.
Of course, when Mr. Straw Man was asked for factual data, silence was the only answer.


The following is a translated page of the followin original French.page

http://www.cdca.asso.fr/cdcaeurope/cdcaeurope-monuments_armeniens.htm

In its resolution "About a political solution of the Armenian question" of June 18, 1987, the European Parliament invited Europe to contribute to the protection of the Armenian architectural heritage in Turkey.

Many testimonys prove that the Turkish State while denying Génocide of the Armenians, follows a systematic policy of destruction of the thousands of churches, monasteries, bridges and fortresses Armenians, in the intention to erase to the traces of the presence of the Armenians on these grounds.



DESTRUCTION OF MONUMENTS ARMENIENS IN TURKEY

All the Armenian areas of the Ottoman Empire until the extermination in mass of the Armenians, at the beginning of the century, of Erzeroum with Van, Bitlis with Mouch and in Cilicie, are places deeply in charge of history. The Armenian people were a keen builder all during his history.

Parallel to the génocide of the population, the Turkish authorities continued a policy of destruction of its historic buildings with the objective to erase any trace of Armenian civilization.

The monuments which survived are gradually détruits.Cette with the passing of years political continues our jours.Tout what by its dumb woman presence can still testify to the Armenian past is condemned to disappear.

The consequences of this policy of destruction exceed the national framework by far and touch with the inheritance of Humanity: Arménie, first Christian country of the history, constituted the hearth of a brilliant civilization and one of the most creative laboratories of the Christian art whose influence was determining in Western Europe in particular on the Romanesque art.

ASSESSMENT AFTER THE GENOCIDE

In accordance with the statistics of the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople, there were in 1914 on the whole of the territory of Arménie Turkish 2300 churches and monasteries in activity.

Numbers of them were xxxels of architecture, art and culture and constituted true museums rich in relics, frescos, manuscripts, enluminures, parts of orfévreries and objets d'art. Most recent dated from 13th and 14th centuries; oldest were rebuilt on the same foundations of churches, and mausoleums paléochrétiens.

Some 4500 other religious buildings were not any more in activity but represented a great archaeological and artistic value.

The Armenian ground was also éminement rich of civil and military constructions.

2150 religious buildings in activity were plundered and burned.

5.500 écclesiastiques was assassinated.

Centers of culture as significant as Sourp-Garabed and Arakélotz Vank (convent of the Apostles), Varak and Narek (monastery where had lived and

worked Saint-Grégoire de Narek, large poet of the Middle Ages), Midsummer's Day and Saint-Akhbérik, Garmravor and Holy Cross, Holy Gregoire de Sarnabad and Saint Nichan, Holy Thomas and Komots Vank, the convent of Ardzké and well of others were plundered, shaved, reduced in ruins.

All the Armenian architectural achievements of great historical and cultural value, fortresses, churches, monasteries, khatchkars, bridges, memorials... for the majority destroyed or were seriously deteriorated and all their unobtrusive Armenian inscriptions.

DESTRUCTION OF MONUMENTS ARMENIENS

The elimination of the vestiges of Armenian civilization on the whole of continuous Turkey of our jours.Des whole churches were demolished and their stones are used by the peasants for contruire maisons.On finds in Eastern Turkey a considerable number of rural constructions whose walls carry stones decorated with reliefs or Armenian inscriptions.

In addition, the local Turkish populations destroyed a number of Armenian monuments to the research of gold that, according to the public rumour, the Armenian rich person would have hidden under their stones at the time of the génocide before being taken along in déportation.Cette drives out with the Armenian treasure continues until today.

Buildings which had escaped with the génocide disappear:

Saint Nichan de Sébaste is not any more.

The convent Sourp Garabed de Césarée (Kayseri) underwent the same fate. The whole of the buildings was destroyed by the shootings, and the stones of the monastery were used to build a whole village.

Hundreds of churches were used as targets with the exercises of the Turkish army .

(example of the famous church of Tékor of V 2nd century, not far from Kars, which was upright until 1956 before being used as target with the exercises of the Turkish army. It does not exist today any more)

In the east of Van, the old monastery of Varag of the 10th century which sheltered a fragment of the true Cross on which Jesus was not crucifié is not any more but ruins.

All the churches and the Armenian monasteries the such monastery of the Mother of God, of Artzvaber (Xème century) of Resurrection (13th century), the monastery of the miracles of Chakhour, located in the surroundings, on banks and the four islands of the Lake Van are also in ruins, with the only exception of the church of Akhtamar.

The splendid whole of the churches of Khetzgonk was dynamited about 1965 without no urbanistic necessity of order justifying this measurement.

Often the authorities call upon the earthquakes to explain the destruction, but by a strange chance these seisms save the buildings Turkish.

MONUMENTS TRANSFORM

The monuments best preserved were transformed into municipal deposits, barns, cattle sheds or, with the help of some rapids additions , in mosques, or are presented at the travellers reaching these areas like authentic samples of architecture seldjoukide or Ottoman!

The church Etchmiadzine Saint close to Soradir, VIIème century, is used today as barn.

The Church of the Apostles of Kars was used like municipal deposit.

Stoppings

All 40 stopping programmed in Turkey in a vast plan of appropriation of water of Euphrate will ring the knell of the vestiges of the Armenian heritage architectural in what was Arménie during 3000 years.



Already, in 1965, of many architectural monuments, whose two Armenian churches containing of the exceptional frescos of the 10th century disappeared in the lake from the dam Keban on the higher course from Euphrate, whereas two close mosques were transported stone by stone.

Recently the Patriarch of the Armenians of the head office of Constantinople made a mission in extremis in the area of the disputed stopping of Ulusoy , in order to try to save the relics of Saint Nerses Chnorhali before they do not disappear under water with the unit from the monastery.

Change of the patronyms

From 1928, the authorities started to change the Armenian historical names of places, rivers, mountains and cities for the turquifier.

Only Akhtamar (become Ahtamar) and Ani, kept their historical name.



TO SAVE THE LAST MONUMENTS

Those of the monuments which were longest saved such Akhtamar and the churches of Ani, the city to the thousand and one churches, well-known and were appreciated historians of art and archaeologists world are in their turn seriously threatened .

In Ani, city royal where the splendour of Armenian civilization during our High Age Means opens out, the cathedral of the 11th century, one of main works built by the Dertad architect and the other buildings of the capital of Bagratides are likely to disappear.

How long will they still survive without assistance?

What makes UNESCO?

According to documents' of UNESCO going back to 1974, out of the 913 Armenian religious monuments still upright after 1915, 464 had been complétement destroyed, 252 were in ruins and 197 needed to be seriously restored.

Unfortunately, UNESCO being an intergovernmental organization, cannot anything entreprende without a decision Turkish government.



The total abandonment of these heads of work of architecture is inadmissible .

Turkey which wishes to use the European Union cannot in same time to destroy the ultimate vestiges of a civilization several times thousand-year-old which belong to the history of Europe.

It would be inconceivable that the European Union accepts this situation. It rests with to him to quickly take the initiative of concrete steps for the safeguard of what can still be saved and to contribute to the sending on the spot, without delaying more, teams of specialists.

[Siamanto]

next week, I will make sure to find some time to locate and scan pictures that show in what conditions are some of those churches.

Unfortunately, I could not locate the pictures and the fact that I'm packing to move to a new apartment is not helping. However, I have ordered the following book that probably includes what I had in mind:
(I also found a demographic map of Western Armenia of early 20th Century. I will post it.)

http://www.yevrobatsi.org/st/item.php?r=0&id=802

Armenian monuments High-Arménie of Jean-Michel Thierry de Crussol
Published it: 27-05-2005



by Denis Donikian


Has just appeared with the editions of CNRS (Paris, 2005) a work of high behaviour, necessary and erudite. It is a book of rare ruins which testifies to présent/passé to the Armenians on a territory where they are not any more.

Does Armenian monuments High-Arménie imply of which archaeological passion animatehas been animated Jean-Michel Thierry de Crussol to have surveyed for thirty years this area of the river sources (Araxe, Euphrate, Djorokh) and cultural (kingdom of Hayasa ?) of Arménie, but also to have written several books and articles on the Armenian monuments ( Armenian Monuments of Vaspurakan, Armenian Monuments of Karabagh, Repertories of the Armenian monasteries, Armenian basilicas into High-Arménie, Arménie with the Middle Ages... ).


Specialist in Armenian monumental art as much as man of ground, Jean-Michel Thierry de Crussol taught the Culture and Art améniens in Inalco, the Christian arts with the EHESS and was charged by the Ministry for Foreign Affairs of multiple scientific expeditions in Arménie, Georgie and Azerbaïdjian.

After having determined the geographical limits (north-western of the Lake Van) and having specified the historical reference marks of the area of them, from antiquity to the modern time while passing by the phases byzantine, Arabic and Turkish, it counts, in a chapter devoted to the archaeological data, the various types of religious architecture (triconque church, tétraconque church, tétraconque church square, octoconque church, etc), and of civil architecture.

The studied areas include/understand the high plain of Karin, the district of Derjan, the plain of Erznka, the basin of Kamax, the mount Sepuh, the area of Bayburt, the area of Ispir, the district of Basen, the district of KURUÇAY, the district of Akn. Each one is introduced by its history. A cartography makes it possible to visualize the geographical situation of the monuments. Each monument is defined by its place, its name, in the history and the books. According to its importance or its originality, it is the subject of a photographic representation or a plan.

These erudite studies are the fruit long years of work, voyages and excursions in the medium of insulated grounds, animated by the passion of discovered and the photographic rescue.

Because it is true that Jean-Michel Thierry de Crussol discovered monuments up to that point unknown. Truth also that this book is registered against the attempts at obliteration of the Armenians by the destruction of their monuments.

It is necessary to thank Jean-Michel Thierry de Crussol for having made and the editions of CNRS to have published this book which points out a lost state of the spirituality of the Armenian people and which resemble an inventory before disappearance.

[bell-the-cat]

How typical! Another arrogant Anglo-Saxon who, because he/she has read a couple of books about the region and has made a couple of visits, has convinced himself/herself that he/she understands better than natives..

You really are a jerk! And such an ignorant one. You haven't a clue as to who you are talking to!

But I suppose that posting of yours might partially educate those who don't know anything at all of the subject - though it is littered with errors and generalisations. For example "Le couvent Sourp Garabed de Césarée" is not destroyed and the stones were not used to build a village - it still survives and is within an army base. The church of Tekor was not destroyed in 1956. It was destroyed in an earthquake in 1912, and again in another in 1935. The facing stones of the surviving parts of the building were removed in the 1960s to build Digor's town hall. The army has not used it for target practice. Of the monasteries on Lake Vans 4 islands three are still substantially intact. As to place-name changes - Armenia has changed just as many. There are a number of other errors but the most serious is the following : "According to documents' of UNESCO going back to 1974, out of the 913 Armenian religious monuments still upright after 1915, 464 had been complétement destroyed, 252 were in ruins and 197 needed to be seriously restored." This information actually comes from a little booklet from 1974 produced mostly by Armenians. These figures are entirely invented - there is no list of the number of churches that were surviving after 1915, and nobody by 1974 had ever bothered to visit the vast majority of monuments that were known to exist before 1915.

[bell-the-cat]

The best online source for information on the surviving or destroyed monuments is here:

http://www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/beyondani.htm

Of course it is listing only a tiny minority of the surviving or destroyed monuments, but since nobody is paying me to do it (and the attitudes of arseholes like Siamanto don't exactly encourage me to add to it) nobody has any right to complain about that!

[Siamanto]

You really are a jerk! And such an ignorant one. You haven't a clue as to who you are talking to!

Mr. SS
I know perfectly who I'm talking to, insecure Straw Man maker. I still think that you're the typical arrogant Anglo-Saxon who considers himself/herself as a specialist based on a couple of readings and a couple of visits.

But I suppose that posting of yours might partially educate those who don't know anything at all of the subject - though it is littered with errors and generalisations. For example "Le couvent Sourp Garabed de Césarée" is not destroyed and the stones were not used to build a village - it still survives and is within an army base. The church of Tekor was not destroyed in 1956. It was destroyed in an earthquake in 1912, and again in another in 1935. The facing stones of the surviving parts of the building were removed in the 1960s to build Digor's town hall. The army has not used it for target practice. Of the monasteries on Lake Vans 4 islands three are still substantially intact. As to place-name changes - Armenia has changed just as many. There are a number of other errors but the most serious is the following : "According to documents' of UNESCO going back to 1974, out of the 913 Armenian religious monuments still upright after 1915, 464 had been complétement destroyed, 252 were in ruins and 197 needed to be seriously restored." This information actually comes from a little booklet from 1974 produced mostly by Armenians. These figures are entirely invented - there is no list of the number of churches that were surviving after 1915, and nobody by 1974 had ever bothered to visit the vast majority of monuments that were known to exist before 1915.

As the CDCA's page suggests, your data is only partial, Mr. "specialist."


P.S. By the way, something tells me that you were mentioned in this month's Nouvelles d'Armenie!