Kocharian: a criminal?

[Hellektor]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

and the rude tone of it.

I spent almost three hours preparing that post and this is the only thing you saw in it! Fine, everyone is free to see things the way they want to.

Point to a single post of mine where I have treated any member of this board impolitely and I'll apologize for it. If I have been aggressive towards any poster on any forum, chances are a. they were Turks that were weaving fairy tales or were rude in the first place; b. they were non-Turks who were rude to me.

Hellektor, this is my last warning to you (this is his very first post addressing me. H.). Either make your posts more mild in reference to insulting the mythical phantom Joo, or find another forum (i.e. get lost H.). I'm tired of baseless crap (I back what I say with solid facts and not fallacious argumentation H.).

George Soros, is a Jooish billionaire, yes. But he has also been critical of Israel, the Bush government and the Sharon government. How can you connect him to the agents of Zionism and Mossad aside from a baseless article that parrots claims of him financing this or that (the Alik article was not written by me, however I did not think it was baseless. In any case, I wasn't focusing on Soros and it was a mere example, not the point of all my posts H.). His history of being an open speculator is notoriously known. All you have to do is read Wikipedia for god's sake. It's not like this is any esoteric information.

Cut the crap (i.e. shut the fuck up H.).

You may see this as the politest form of talking to someone who has never insulted you in any manner, yet I was not born in the US. I was born and I grew up in Iran where people avoid being rude to one another even in the most extreme cases. I'm a sensitive guy, you know!

[Anoush]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

Dear Hellektor, please don't pay any mind to TomServo's kookooness. He is just being plain rude.

Plus, I agree and like all your posts. You are very patriotic, very well read, intelligent, smart to see things in the right perspective, you certainly do your homework well and you are indeed a polite individual, plus I haven't seen you being out of line.

BTW; I copied all the pages from your writing about "And the Fraud Had a Name Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fraud and the Absurd". I just glanced at it and I am impressed. You certainly did a lot of good work there. Good for you, very impressive works Hellektor jan.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

I haven't really read this thread, but I will try to stick to the original question: Is Kocharian a Criminal? I have little doubt. But what is the alternative?

I'd rather have a criminal in power who actually advocates the core national interests of our country, rather than a western-backed criminal who will not only sell all our capital to foreign investors (which already happens anyway), but also sells out our national interests, namely genocide recognition, support for Artsakh and the border issue with Turkey. These 3 things are safe-gaurded by the current administration, and support for these issues is the only hope for Armenia to one day regain what rightfully belongs to it. If you're willing to sacrifice this for a percieved (stress on the word percieved) economic benefit, then you are short-sighted.

You should always ask yourself what the alternative is. Saddam was bad too, but as we saw the western-backed alternative to him was much worse.

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

Umm, Kocharian gave his blessing to the sale of the railway to Russia.

As for Armenia, all trains stop in Georgia at Russia's behest. Which means that Russia, if it should so desire, could force the RA to submit to its whim and fancy by merely shutting down rail transit or threatening to do so.

What was the 'perceived' economic benefit of that?

Atleast one Armenian journalist is reporting that Robert is planning to return to government as soon as September. http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg241237.html

This same journalist, Lusine Barseghyan was beat up on August 11, 2008. http://ditord.wordpress.com/2008/08/...rnalist-again/

And another reporting on the problem with eradicating corruption in the customs office because of all the main importers and exporters being linked to the elites. http://www.iwpr.net/?p=par&s=j&o=346...te=henj-338182

English translation:

Personal business of Sargsyan's [Serzha] In the customs committee of the Ra the struggle against corruption boils, [Serzh] Sargsyan appointed the head of this committee of the most honest person - [Gagika] Of [khachatryana], with the aid of which the corruption in this system must be eradicated. [Gevorkyan] Ike Yerevan, 29-Jul-08 Specifically, they present this picture to our series citizens, attempting to convince them of the fact that now, from some moment Of [serzh] Sargsyan began to work well. But now let us look, which in reality was created and is created in the customs committee. Customs committee was in reality and remains one of the basic of feeding troughs for the elite. Each of the high-ranking officials has their “preference” in the sphere of import or export. Let us return to one of “the preferences” Of [serzha] of Sargsyan - to export of the scrap of ferrous metals. The excessively dark region, during the study which will become clearly, to what extent it reforms customs committee, how there eradicates corruption. Let us begin from the fact that by the export of the scrap of ferrous metals as by business it is possible to be occupied freely, this activity is not subject to licensing. I.e., any person can by legal way acquire scrap metal in any of a plant or private individual, immerse to the train or the cargo machine, export into any country and sell. But this only in the theory. It is exclusive in the theory. In practice no one can export of Armenia even one truck with the scrap of ferrous metals, without having obtained to this special “good”. “Kindly " gives personally [Serzh] Sargsyan, and customs committee strictly follows the prohibition. So it was during the last 8 years, was such situation and now. Monopoly for the export of scrap belongs to the company “[Meteksim]”, owner of which are Michael Arutyunyan, brother of the former deputy chief of the service of the national security of Arutyunyan's [Grigora]. This company without difficulty exports scrap, and rest obtain quotas to the removal of small parties precisely from this company. The following mechanism acts for them: for example, after long persuasions they obtained quota to the removal of scrap. They tell them that they must transfer round sum to some bank calculation. But so that they would not know that this due to and it belongs to whom, the man is sent with them into the bank. Together with it they go in the bank with the available amount, then money transfer to bank employee. Well and this person transfers paper with the recorded number of calculation, to which must be transferred money, the very same, naturally, is obtained receipt about the payment. After these actions it is possible to freely export scrap. Naturally, all quotas named above, the payments of every kind are absolutely illegal and are conducted unofficially. This about the mechanisms. Now let us switch over to numbers. In order to gather scrap metal, it is necessary to buy up it in organization and private individuals. If you want to sell the existing scrap metal, in you they will purchase it at best for 110-120 dollars for the ton. On the World Market its cost - 450-500 dollars. Depending on that how you will transport your scrap metal; by train or on the trucks - your clean profit will be 200-300 dollars from each ton. Since 2000. by the cheapest - by railway line scrap metal exports the exclusively point out aboveed company “To [meteksim]”. Rest it is permitted to transport scrap much by more expensive method - in the cargo machines. So that it would be understandable, with what numbers the discussion deals, let us note that according to official statistics, in the first five months of the present year from Armenia were exported 31 thousand tons of the scrap of ferrous metals. On the modest calculations, this quantity of scrap metal enriched the pocket of exporter by 6-9 million dollars. If the export of scrap metal was not monopolized, then these incomes would be distributed between many economic subjects. However, since this business is centralized, these sums settle only on the personal calculations of several persons. On the assertion of our source, well familiar with this internal kitchen, [Serzh] Sargsyan sometimes renders services to the specific people or to structures, giving them quotas for the export of scrap metal. In particular, it is known that once the quota for the export of scrap was given to man, by the name whom it in reality appeared (party) “Dashnaktsutyun”. Such situation now was created, that the companies, in which according to one or the other to reasons were accumulated the reserves of the scrap of ferrous metals, try as far as possible to hide it, expecting that bright day, when they themselves can export their scrap and obtain profit. However, in the case of detecting the hidden scrap metal data of company are subjected attack of the national security service, department on the fighting with organized crime also of other structures. So that, the export of scrap metal was and remains the personal business of Sargsyan's [Serzha].

Let's face it Soviets have resurrected the August 1991 coup and two former Azerbaijani Soviet party members have quashed the blooming of Perestroika in the new Republic.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

Umm, Kocharian gave his blessing to the sale of the railway to Russia.

As for Armenia, all trains stop in Georgia at Russia's behest. Which means that Russia, if it should so desire, could force the RA to submit to its whim and fancy by merely shutting down rail transit or threatening to do so.

What was the 'perceived' economic benefit of that?

I already conceded that the current administration sells much of its capital to foreign (mainly Russian) investors. It is one of my pet peeves, not because they do it, but the level at which they do it. But realistically, we are not in a position to be telling Russia what they can or can't do in our country. Thats just the harsh reality. And to a lesser extent, it also has to do with the fact that our administration has very little business acumen, and I have heard enough true stories to confirm that notion.

And if Russia so desires, they can do a lot more worse things than just stopping one of our trains. The recent debacle in Georgia springs to mind. However, If we let a western puppet have access to the Armenian government, the only economic changes they will implement is to open up Armenia to private American corporations. Even worse, they will sign away all our core national interests, which as sure as you're reading this, they WILL do. Just look at any country where the local administration is a U.S./western puppet and you will see that its a very obvious trend.

As for the corruption... can you name me a single ex-Soviet (or western) country that doesn't have high levels of corruption? Armenia's corruption is actually not as bad as whats in Azerbaijan or the central Asian states, who are all much better off than Armenia in terms of resources, human capital and political situation. We must remember that Armenia is in a state of virtual siege, with 80% of its border closed and enemies on both sides ranting about how they are going to destroy our country. If you want to compare us to anyone, you should compare us to Cuba and Gaza, because they're the only ones who have similar situations.

Your concerns are legitimate, I'm not trying to downplay them, because I have the same concerns. Despite that, I know the alternative to the current situation is much worse. If you come up with some realistic, workable solutions then your criticisms will make a lot more sense.

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

Privatization of U.S. helium industry in 1996 leads to government waste in Texas in 2008 potentially costing U.S. taxpayers more than 100 million dollars.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/5960789.html

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washingtonpostinvestigations/2008/08/report_federal_helium_program.html

http://www.amarillo.com/stories/082208/new_11063838.shtml

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem...y_muck_640.php ("An office of the Bureau of Land Managment made improper deals with private helium reginers at the expense of taxpayers. According to a Department of Interior report, a field office in Texas allowed refiners to profit by overcharging for equipment. The deal may result in the government's equipment costs almost doubling by the time the contracts expire in 2015.(Washington Post)")

Purported government corruption in the RA has been linked to the poaching of natural resources.
http://www.hetq.am/eng/ecology/8245/ (Local forest official alleged to have processed protected walnut trees at his own sawmill)
http://armenianow.com/?action=viewAr...1&IID=&lng=eng (Deforestation, illegal lumber trade linked to corruption)
http://www.illegal-logging.info/item...&approach_id=1 (same)
http://lifearoundme.wordpress.com/category/blogroll/ (lumber in Lori being used at copper mine)

http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/business/articles/eav011603.shtml

http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/NYS_122207_03.htm

http://www.gov.am/enversion/premier_2/primer_home_A.Margaryan.htm?mat=769

http://www.armeniandiaspora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90958

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

World Bank linked to corruption in projects touted to distribute water to Yerevan; 80% of water distributed to Yerevan water system goes missing.

http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/NYS_122207_03.htm

http://yerevan.usembassy.gov/commerce/ccg.pdf (deals re: privatization of state assets lack transparency involve direct or indirect investment by government official and sometimes contrary to national interest, corruption thwarts robust foreign investment, bribes often cost of doing business, barrier to entering market)

http://yerevan.usembassy.gov/news/20...news070208.pdf (USAID sponsors anti-corruption forum in Armenia)

PM Tigran Sargsian fighting uphill battle in attempting to extract corruption from RA but proclaims it is the biggest problem threatening the RA's future.

http://www.tol.cz/look/TOL/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=280&NrSection=1&NrArticle=19817

5 cases studies explore the extent of the debate over corruption in the RA.

http://www.eurasianet.org/armenia08/corruption/index.shtml

Corruption alleged in mining industry; Ararat Gold Recovery and Global gold.
http://rfe.rferl.org/featuresarticle...99f76a73c.html ("Armenia's Prosecutor-General's Office announced on August 2 that it has formally asked the Economic Court to strip the Ararat Gold Recovery Company of all operating licenses and fine it almost $22 million for "tax fraud and other violations of the law," according to RFE/RL's Armenian Service. The case is the latest in a series of disputes in the Armenian mining sector, with an earlier conflict between the Environment Ministry and the U.S. Global Gold Corporation culminating in a decision by the ministry to revoke the company's license to carry out exploratory work at a mine located at Marjan, near the Iranian border. Former Environment Minister Vardan Ayvazian also faced corruption allegations by the same U.S. company, which reportedly submitted documentary evidence to the U.S. government demonstrating the minister's demand for a $3 million bribe to allow the company to continue operating in Armenia.")

Global gold sues the RA. http://www.bilaterals.org/article.php3?id_article=7562

Some National Assembly members engage in business despite rules barring such conduct. http://www.opendemocracy.net/democra...menia_4176.jsp ("Despite the prohibition of business activities by politicians, many members of the National Assembly of Armenia don't bother concealing their violations, and their entrepreneurial endeavours enable them to spend large amounts of money gaining voters' hearts.")

Baghdassaryan says corruption bad, hampering development of the RA. http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=17270

Raise RA officials salaries to curb corruption. http://armenianow.com/?action=viewAr...5&IID=&lng=eng

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

NA Deputy and head of political party named Most Successful Entrepeneur in the Business World by Business Planet magazine. http://www.hetq.am/eng/politics/8164/

Chief Prosecutor unhappy about incompetence of police force and inability of officers to solve crimes. http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeni...738A99391E.asp

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

There is a mouse in the house, mouk seen in the NA halls. Someone hit it with a broom.

Once upon a time, Robert wanted to crackdown on corruption too by going after RA customs and tax agencies. http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeni...D28839C19C.ASP

Robert fails in attempt to eradicate corruption, RA more corrupt in 07 than in 06.

http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2008/09/E0662136-6A28-48F7-AE4A-9E4E8BA993AE.ASP

http://www.asbarez.com/index.html?showarticle=35354_9/23/2008_1

Police not cooperating with March 1 commission.

http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2008/08/E9DE5752-DF2D-4C40-BF9D-7148D3433680.ASP

Was Torosian pushed out in favor of mouk to kill the commission before it found Robert and the RA government ultimately responsible for human rights violations against RA citizens?

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Kocharian: a criminal?

Flashback to late 1999 to early 2000. http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/europe/armenia.html