Nagorno Karabakh & North Cyprus

[ara87]

One of the requirements of being a sovereign nation is recognition from other nations. (just one nation doesn't count either)

Do you think that the government of Turkey would recognize Nagorno Karabakh, if simultaneously Armenia recognized the Republic of Northern Cypress? I know many other countries would be angered, such as Azerbaijan and Cypress, but Azerbaijan has only succeeded in holding onto N.K b/c of Turkey, and whatever Turkey decides, the USA would most likely go along with their decision over AZR.'s. As for Cypress, the world would be mad, but so far all they have done is scold Turkey and N.C. and i doubt they really would do anything other than more scolding, maybe some short term sanctions. Anyways just something to ponder...

[jgk3]

Re: Nagorno Karabakh & North Cyprus

why should we piss off greeks if we already have de facto independence in NK?

[Dice]

Re: Nagorno Karabakh & North Cyprus

my uncle would lose his job probably in that case(armenian ambasador of greece)

[Armanen]

Re: Nagorno Karabakh & North Cyprus

The starter of this thread (from previous posts) not only doesn't know simple Armenian history, claiming Urartu and Armenia are not the same thing, but also doesn't seem to grasp basic international relations and geopolitics.

If Armenia were interested in immidietly getting Artsakh recognized it would have done it on its own (obvious reasons why it has not), recognized kosovo when majority of europe did, or annexed Artsakh into Armenia proper. As jgk pointed out, Artsakh is more of a country than azerbaijan, it really doesn't matter if other nations recognize it because thru Armenia the population of Artsakh has all the representation it could ever need.

Greece and Cyprus are two of our closest allies in europe, not to mention historical enemies of turkey, as the saying goes "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". So what would Armenia gain by recognizing Artsakh, when others wouldn't including Russia, pissing off two of our closest allies, and most likely giving azerbaijan an excuse to attack?

But I think you (ara) are still stuck on whether Armenians are originally from the balkans, cause that is what the bs textbook that maybe has 15 pages on Armenians history (out of 1000) claims, and of course if a western textbook says it's so, then it's so.

[ara87]

Re: Nagorno Karabakh & North Cyprus

The starter of this thread (from previous posts) not only doesn't know simple Armenian history, claiming Urartu and Armenia are not the same thing, but also doesn't seem to grasp basic international relations and geopolitics.

If you referring to the Armenianification thread, i never said Armenians didn't come from Urartu. Read. I said the Armenian language, while influenced by Urartian, is not a descendant of it. I.E. Armenian= Indo European/ Urartian= Hurro-Urartian

It really doesn't matter if other nations recognize it because thru Armenia the population of Artsakh has all the representation it could ever need.

While Armenian may be able to take care of Artsakh, having it internationally recognized would still be a good thing, b/c it will reduce the claims that Azerbaijan has over it, and would make it less likely that they would march in for war. If they did march in, they'd be violating a sovereign country, and the international community.

Greece and Cyprus are two of our closest allies in europe, not to mention historical enemies of turkey, as the saying goes "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". So what would Armenia gain by recognizing Artsakh, when others wouldn't including Russia, pissing off two of our closest allies, and most likely giving azerbaijan an excuse to attack?

I already stated why I think Azerbaijan wouldn't attack, i.e. violating a sovereign country and the international community, Turkey (their major backers) would have sided on our side(for once) b/c we recognized N.C., and with Turkey so goes the USA. Russia would side with us if war broke out, b/c they would love for Azerbaijan to become weaker, and try to monopolize them; same reason they were/are possibly leaning to recognizing S.O in Georgia. Iran would be happy, b/c a weakened Azerbaijan, would always be a good thing for them and many Iranians dislike Azeri’s.

So what if Greece and Cyprus are allies? While they may hate Turkey, cypress doesn’t carry much clout. Greece and Turkey, they still do business, Armenia has no economic value to Greece either, give it a 50 years and see how well their relations improve, while you/ we remain in the same position/if not worse. (Aren’t you always saying how the west is bad and anti Armenian anyways? Why do you care what they think all of a sudden?)

Should we not try to improve our relations with Turkey? I know there’s more to it than just Artsarkh, but it would be a start. (Unless you want us to remain enemies for all eternity so you can always pull “the Turks are evil and the source for all are problems” card out for all time). As for Turkey, they would take heat from Europe, and would probably do something such as, open borders with us, or recognize the genocide, to appease the west (most likely open the border). Also the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline that runs through Turkey is another option to Europe for oil outside Russia, so they will be lenient. There are also current plans being made to possibly extend the pipe line to Israel via the Mediterranean, and the western world (generally speaking)always sides with Israel. Azerbaijan cannot do anything to stop oil flow or sabotage the pipe line, b/c it would seriously piss off Georgia, Turkey, and the rest of the world, not to mention hurt their own economy. The USA will pick Turkey/Armenia side over Azerbaijan b/c at the end of the day Turkey still has the air base in, buys weapons from them, and the fact that they are one of our few allies in the middle east, and with Israel also. America will use its clout in Europe, so in the end all they/ the world will do is say, “well we don’t really approve but go ahead.”

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Nagorno Karabakh & North Cyprus

Dude we are not going to xxxx our relationship with greece for Turkey. i can't believe you are even suggestion this. Nort cyprus and artsakh are not the same situation. cyprus is greek island while artsakh is Armenian.

[Armanen]

Re: Nagorno Karabakh & North Cyprus

If you referring to the Armenianification thread, i never said Armenians didn't come from Urartu. Read. I said the Armenian language, while influenced by Urartian, is not a descendant of it. I.E. Armenian= Indo European/ Urartian= Hurro-Urartian

First, Urartu was the name given to our kingdom by Assyria, we called it the Kingdom of Ararat, Nairi, and Biainili. Second, while some "western" scholars may claim that there is no further debate on the language spoken in the Kingdom of Nairi, that's not the case, please take time to read www.armeniahighland.com Even send an e-mail to the author of the site, he will often responds and I'm confident he would explain any question you had better than anyone else.

While Armenian may be able to take care of Artsakh, having it internationally recognized would still be a good thing, b/c it will reduce the claims that Azerbaijan has over it, and would make it less likely that they would march in for war. If they did march in, they'd be violating a sovereign country, and the international community.

While it would be nice to have Artsakh be internationally recognized as independent or part of Armenia proper, the truth is that like Serbia with Kosovo, azerbaijan wouldn't forget about Artsakh and they would be more likely to attempt to take Artsakh than Serbia would be to fight for Kosovo, beacause azerbaijan has oil and in comparison with Serbia there is less the "west" could do. Sure the major oil companies from the u.s. and u.k. are part of the reason azerbaijan would be weary of a war, but we are assuming that aliev is a rational being, I am not too comfertable with that.

The international community is bs, there are great powers and then their are the subordinate nations. What did the world community do when turkey went into northern iraq, or cyprus, or Russia into georgia? Talk is cheap, actions are important and the rule of the jungle dominates in international affairs, which is and always has been one of chaos.

I already stated why I think Azerbaijan wouldn't attack, i.e. violating a sovereign country and the international community, Turkey (their major backers) would have sided on our side(for once) b/c we recognized N.C., and with Turkey so goes the USA. Russia would side with us if war broke out, b/c they would love for Azerbaijan to become weaker, and try to monopolize them; same reason they were/are possibly leaning to recognizing S.O in Georgia. Iran would be happy, b/c a weakened Azerbaijan, would always be a good thing for them and many Iranians dislike Azeri’s.

Once again you are assuming azerbaijan wouldn't attack, and making a great leap by thinking turkey would recognize Artsakh because Armenia recognized n. cyprus. Plus the "international community" that you are so keen on is against the break up of Cyprus, so we would be pissed them off, no?
Russia is happy with the status quo, they would still like to see azerbaijan come back to their sphere of influence, so baku would need to really tick of Moscow for the latter to put all of its weight behind Armenia.

Greece and Turkey, they still do business, Armenia has no economic value to Greece either, give it a 50 years and see how well their relations improve, while you/ we remain in the same position/if not worse. (Aren’t you always saying how the west is bad and anti Armenian anyways? Why do you care what they think all of a sudden?)

If we use your line of thinking, then since turkey and Russia do more business than Armenia and Russia, our relations are that important with Russia either. Armenia is on the right track, and I'm glad the current administration has enough foreign policy sense to keep close with Russia, be friendly with the west, and at the same time initiate dialog with turkey, which we will have to see is legit or for looks (I think it's a bit of both). And since Armenia is a small country in a terrible geopolitical area, and the west controls most if not all NGOs, IGOs, and international organizations, I don't want to see Armenia become a "rouge nation" because it strayed too far off. Until Armenia is more self sufficiant it should follow its complimentary course.


As far as the btc, it was never that great and now it looks like it could very well be seeing its last days, so that pipeline isn't going to be extended anytime soon. And lastly, turkey is not america's ally, it is the 1st zionist nation, israel the 2nd, therefore they serve zionist interests.

[ara87]

Re: Nagorno Karabakh & North Cyprus

"western" scholars may claim that there is no further debate on the language spoken in the Kingdom of Nairi, that's not the case, please take time to read www.armeniahighland.com Even send an e-mail to the author of the site, he will often responds and I'm confident he would explain any question you had better than anyone else.

i never stated the western scholars claim there is no further debate, i said they are still debating when the kingdom of Urartu dropped Uratian for Armenian, all this was was a reference to anonymouse who said a people make a culture, and i replied by saying culture is also influenced from outside which in this case it clearly must have been as Armenian is not even in the same language family as Uratian. I will email the author anyways though, i have questions about other things

Once again you are assuming azerbaijan wouldn't attack, and making a great leap by thinking turkey would recognize Artsakh because Armenia recognized n. cyprus. Plus the "international community" that you are so keen on is against the break up of Cyprus, so we would be pissed them off, no?
Russia is happy with the status quo, they would still like to see azerbaijan come back to their sphere of influence, so baku would need to really tick of Moscow for the latter to put all of its weight behind Armenia.

While the international community is against the break up of Cyprus, they will still side with Turkey, b/c the USA and Israel will, and I'm sure other nations will as well. All they/we would get is a slap on the wrist, especially if they see us working together, some will go "just leave them alone, they're being polite/somewhat friendly to each other we don't want to f it up now."

I didn't say we would recognize NC and then wait for turkey to recognize Artsakh, i said we'd have to do it simultaneously, as in a contract/agreement signed by both presidents and other officials that as of whatever moment both countries recognize NC and Artsakh.

And actually Russia doesn't have to recognize Artsakh so long as turkey does for it to become legit, and can just remain neutral. Azerbaijan will feel betrayed by Turkey & the west, and fall back into back to Russia's sphere of influence.

[Hellektor]

Re: Nagorno Karabakh & North Cyprus

The stupidest/most naïve of Armenians or an Armenian with no understanding whatever of the Turk/Armenian issues can ever believe that Turks will recognize Artsakh if we would recognize the bogus state of Turk occupied Cyprus!

A Turk disguised as an Armenian is the only other type of loser who might bring up such an absurd proposition.

P.S. Let us avoid using the despicable, distorted trilingual* insult “Nagorno Karabakh” and always call it Artsakh.

*nagorno = Angliczed form of the Russian nagornyy = mountainous
kara = Turk for black
bakh = Turkified form of the Persian bagh = garden (partez, paradisa, paradise)

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Nagorno Karabakh & North Cyprus

Northern Cyprus isn't even a state in the real sense of the word. Its army is mostly made up of Turkish soldiers from Anatolia (around 30,000), and they would not exist without this foreign intervention. Artsakh on the other hand, has an army which is made up of people who actually live there.