Armenia and the information war

[levon]

Re: Armenia and the information war

If you disagree with somebody's opinion, the burden is on your to try to convince them otherwise.

For the request to ban anyone who is not pro-Armenian, that's a counter-productive rule. The whole point of this thread is to counter information war.

One of the ways of doing this is to engage the enemy, learn its tactics and find a way to refute them. We're not going to be able to win the information war by shutting people out (nor are we capable of this IRL), we're going to win it by being trained to sniff out bullsh!t and presenting facts.

The kind of attitude you present fosters an environment where misinformation can thrive.

Direct engagement of propaganda is almost never the right thing to do. Attempting to disprove misinformation most often indirectly validates that information, to the outside viewer at least.

Not all propaganda is equal. In order to properly combat it, one must first understand who it is aimed at and what are it's goals. Another important factor is how this misinformation is distributed. When trying to combat misinformation, the last bit can be called the arena of combat. The arena sets the rules, and target and goals of misinformation set the strategy of combat.

It's important to remember that NO amount of misinformation can ever be allowed to foster (unless you're engaged in Black propaganda). This means, whenever possible, misinformation must be destroyed and not engaged. Engagement is only an option when destruction is not possible.

Take this forum for example. For someone posting misinformation, this forum is the arena. Now, let's ask ourselves. Who is the target audience? The forum members and the web surfer who happens to come across the posts. So if we are the target audience, what is the point in directly engaging misinformation. That's a waste of time and resources when the arena allows deleting of posts and banning of members.

This is not just a forum that follows universal principles. There are no such things as universal principles. Other forums don't have members who constantly infiltrate the forum and post anti-Armenian propaganda. This is an Armenian forum, which hopefully fosters a PRO-ARMENIAN stance, therefore ANTI-ARMENIAN sentiments must be destroyed, NOT Engaged.

Not all propaganda is meant just for consumption. Some are meant for engagement. Meaning, the goal of some misinformation is to invoke a discussion. This is often the case when the misinformation is too far-fetched to be believed. A discussion indirectly lends some credibility to the information, which by itself would be considered absolutely ludicrous. Think about it, discussion means there might be some truth to it. No one will engage in discussing absolute falsehoods.

Now, by allowing false information to dwell in this forum, be discussed and engaged, we are lending some truth to it. An outside observer will read the discussion and walk away with an opinion, WHICH MAY NOT ALWAYS BE THE TRUTH.

This is why, whenever possible, misinformation MUST BE DESTROYED, and NOT ENGAGED.


I suggest you research more about how misinformation works and how it should be combated before you make forum policies that are counter-productive.

[ninetoyadome]

Re: Armenia and the information war

Apparently this one turkish scientist singlehandedly proved Artsakh belonged to azerbaijan and there was no Armenian Genocide.


“In case Armenia withdraws Russian military bases located in its territory, the US can recognize the independence of Karabakh” – INTERVIEW

[ 21 Apr 2011 11:09 ]
“The documents found in the Russian archives show that Karabakh is a historical land of Azerbaijan”


Moscow. Farid Akbarov – APA. APA’s Moscow correspondent’s interview with Turkish scientist Mehmet Perinchek, the author of “The Armenian question in 120 documents from the Russian state archives”

- Did you find any documents and facts concerning Karabakh problem while doing research in the state archives of Russia?

- I found a number of documents in the archives concerning Karabakh problem. All of them are historical facts. There are interesting points in these facts. The document covering the period of Dashnak Armenia shows that Armenians committed savageries against Azerbaijanis in Karabakh. Moreover, the documents found in the archives show that Karabakh is the historical land of Azerbaijan. There are correspondences of Lenin, Stalin and Orjonikidze. In one of his correspondences Stalin says he supports Turks and Azerbaijanis. He writes that Azerbaijanis and Turks are right in this issue.

- How do you see the solution of Karabakh problem?

- Peaceful solution of the problem is very difficult, because there are various factors here. They are Russia and West, Azerbaijan and Armenia factors. Therefore, this problem can not be solved peacefully soon.

- How do you assess the position of Turkey and Russia in Karabakh problem?

- Turkey’s position is open and clear. All are aware of it. Turkey supports Azerbaijan’s right position. As regards Russia, Moscow has directed itself towards Azerbaijan. Armenia and US held talks. According to the talks, in case Armenia withdraws Russian military bases located in its territory, the US can recognize the independence of Karabakh. Russia has become aware of these talks, therefore directed its position towards Azerbaijan.

- Can diplomatic relations be restored between Turkey-Armenia soon?

- It is impossible. The signing of Armenia-Turkey protocols was a wrong step. I hope Turkish Foreign Ministry and government have understood that it is wrong.

--------------------------------------------
Turkish scientist’s book “Armenian issue in 120 documents of Russian state archives” presented in Moscow
[ 21 Apr 2011 11:04 ]
Moscow. Farid Akbarov – APA. A presentation ceremony of the book “Armenian issue in 120 documents of Russian state archives” by Turkish scientist Mehmet Perincek was held at the Moscow’s Book Center, APA correspondent reports.

The author gave detailed information about his book and said he worked with the Russian archives for almost 10 years to write this book.

Perincek said the book denied “Armenian genocide” claims and explained some historic events, which were interpreted differently by the historians. “The Armenian issue and Armenians genocide claims are one of the controversial issues concerned Turkey and the world community recently. One of the important witnesses of the 1915-1923 events was tsarist Russia, then Soviet Russia alongside with Turkey and Armenian side as well. 120 original documents are saved in the Russian archives, which are open to everyone. Those documents were published in the book without any explanation and interpretation. These facts show that Armenian genocide claims are groundless. There were tragic events in that history committed by Turks and Armenians against each other and the imperialist powers, which intended to divide Turkey, had responsibility for those events”.

Then the author answered the questions of journalists. Armenian journalists and representative of the Dashnaksutyun party tried to hinder the presentation ceremony with their improper replications and speeches, but couldn’t achieve their goals. The author answered the questions with discretion. He said if Armenia opens its archives to the historians, he will work there with pleasure.

Mehmet Perincek was born in Istanbul on September 19, 1978. He graduated from the School of Law of Istanbul University and then continued his education in the post-graduate department of the Moscow Institute of International Relations. He researched a lot of materials of the Russian state archives, which proved the groundlessness of the Armenian claims against Turkey, and he published these materials in Turkey. Perincek is working now on his doctorate dissertation. He is a professor at the Istanbul University and senior fellow at the Institute of Ataturk Principles and History of Turkish Revolution.

[Federate]

Re: Armenia and the information war

The kind of attitude you present fosters an environment where misinformation can thrive.

Direct engagement of propaganda is almost never the right thing to do. Attempting to disprove misinformation most often indirectly validates that information, to the outside viewer at least.

Not all propaganda is equal. In order to properly combat it, one must first understand who it is aimed at and what are it's goals. Another important factor is how this misinformation is distributed. When trying to combat misinformation, the last bit can be called the arena of combat. The arena sets the rules, and target and goals of misinformation set the strategy of combat.

It's important to remember that NO amount of misinformation can ever be allowed to foster (unless you're engaged in Black propaganda). This means, whenever possible, misinformation must be destroyed and not engaged. Engagement is only an option when destruction is not possible.

Take this forum for example. For someone posting misinformation, this forum is the arena. Now, let's ask ourselves. Who is the target audience? The forum members and the web surfer who happens to come across the posts. So if we are the target audience, what is the point in directly engaging misinformation. That's a waste of time and resources when the arena allows deleting of posts and banning of members.

This is not just a forum that follows universal principles. There are no such things as universal principles. Other forums don't have members who constantly infiltrate the forum and post anti-Armenian propaganda. This is an Armenian forum, which hopefully fosters a PRO-ARMENIAN stance, therefore ANTI-ARMENIAN sentiments must be destroyed, NOT Engaged.

Not all propaganda is meant just for consumption. Some are meant for engagement. Meaning, the goal of some misinformation is to invoke a discussion. This is often the case when the misinformation is too far-fetched to be believed. A discussion indirectly lends some credibility to the information, which by itself would be considered absolutely ludicrous. Think about it, discussion means there might be some truth to it. No one will engage in discussing absolute falsehoods.

Now, by allowing false information to dwell in this forum, be discussed and engaged, we are lending some truth to it. An outside observer will read the discussion and walk away with an opinion, WHICH MAY NOT ALWAYS BE THE TRUTH.

This is why, whenever possible, misinformation MUST BE DESTROYED, and NOT ENGAGED.


I suggest you research more about how misinformation works and how it should be combated before you make forum policies that are counter-productive.

Levon I don't disagree, especially with your paragraph on far-fetched propaganda. We can't give undue weight to denialists for example. But what happens when someone with scholarly credibility vomits denialist propaganda? Not even, what happens if someone who is articulate and uses excellent forged sources to try to prove the AG never happened (tallarmeniantale.com). We need to be armed and anticipate. You will be laughed at if you say "get lost troll" to Justin McCarthy for example. Your ideas are great in an ideal world where Armenians can destroy whatever they do not like. True, you can do that in a forum but I view things differently in the sense that this forum provides good simulation of what we might encounter in real life or in arenas that actually matter or make a difference. Unchecked propaganda can also mean implicit acceptance, at least to the outside viewer. In real life, you can't stop any kind of misinformation unless you destroy the state of Azerbaijan.

Armenians must know what they are up against. From the average Azeri troll who tries to tie their artificial nation to Caucasian Albania to the bumbling third party idiot who read de Waal's Black Garden and thinks we committed a genocide in Ivanyan. I think in most cases it can be said that the more incredible the lie seems, the more people will find it easier to believe. For example, if an Azeri came here and went on about how Tigran the Great was Persian, half of the forum members here would only reply "Get lost troll". And on the surface, it looks laughable at best. Now what if I told you that Wikipedia (or Azeri editors) had written that Tigran the Great was Persian once upon a time? Or that Bin Laden had ties to Armenia? Another piece of comedy that was once upon a time the rage over the Internet where we did not have control over.

Anyway, I think we're exaggerating the amount of misinformation that might be present here. Almost everyone is pro-Armenian (or claims to be) and those who are not are usually banned within a few days for some of the reasons both of us are mentioning. If you do see things that are ludicrous, let me know so we can get rid of it.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenia and the information war

A lot of "journalism" today is based on half truths or partial truths which are purposely written to mislead the reader and let's face it, a lot of people accept information at face value and don't have the intelligence/know how to research what they read. Most likely this is why propaganda works so well, especially over the radio, internet or television. When people are too lazy to seek knowledge for themselves, they can be easily manipulated.

[Federate]

Re: Armenia and the information war

U.S. Envoy Barred From Ancient Armenian Cemetery In Azerbaijan

Azerbaijan -- U.S. ambassador Matthew Bryza, Baku, 17Feb2011
21.04.2011
Gevorg Stamboltsian

The Azerbaijani authorities on Thursday refused to allow U.S. Ambassador Matthew Bryza to visit an ancient Armenian cemetery in Azerbaijan that was reportedly destroyed by them in 2005.

The cemetery, which once had thousands of intricately carved Armenian cross stones, or khachkars, is located near Julfa, a town in the Azerbaijani exclave of Nakhichevan.

Videos that emerged in late 2005 purportedly showed Azerbaijani troops attacking the UNESCO-protected gravestones. They elicited condemnation from the European Parliament and other bodies.

The Azerbaijani government denied their destruction at the time. Still, a 2006 report by the London-based by the Institute for War and Peace Reporting (IWPR) confirmed that the cemetery has vanished. The IWPR said its journalist was near enough to see that the cemetery was gone.

In a statement posted on its website, the U.S. Embassy in Azerbaijan said Bryza tried to travel to Julfa during a two-day visit to Nakhichevan that ended on Thursday.

“The ambassador’s request to visit Djulfa was denied,” the embassy said. “But authorities in Nakhchivan did discuss the Djulfa Khachkars in detail with Ambassador Bryza and pledged to work with him to facilitate a visit to the Djulfa cemetery in coming months.”

“As I pledged to do in Washington before arriving as Ambassador, I traveled to Nakhchivan to investigate what happened in Djulfa,” Bryza was quoted as saying. “As I said at the time the cemetery destruction was reported, the desecration of cultural sites – especially a cemetery – is a tragedy, which we deplore, regardless of where it happens.”

“I have worked actively to protect Armenian churches in Tbilisi, as well as Azerbaijani mosques in Shusha and Aghdam. Preservation of these cultural and religious monuments is of immense human importance, which transcends all political, cultural and religious differences,” he added.

Bryza served as U.S. deputy assistant secretary of state from 2005-2009. His alleged failure to “meaningfully respond” to the destruction of Julfa’s cemetery was among the concerns expressed by the Armenian National Committee Of America (ANCA) during last year’s congressional hearings on his nomination for the post of U.S. ambassador in Baku.

Those concerns were echoed by two U.S. senators who blocked the congressional endorsement of Bryza’s candidacy. They pressed Bryza on why he waited three months to condemn the reported desecration.

Bryza told them in July that he needed time to look into those reports. “I asked our embassy to investigate what had happened, and as that information came in and it became clear to me what had happened, then, absolutely, I publicly issued that condemnation,” he said.

http://www.azatutyun.am/content/article/9501550.html

[Mos]

Re: Armenia and the information war

We should burn down the remaining Mosques in Karabakh. Azeris only learn when they get a taste of their own medicine, which is violence.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Armenia and the information war

We should burn down the remaining Mosques in Karabakh. Azeris only learn when they get a taste of their own medicine, which is violence.

What will we gain by doing that?

[Mos]

Re: Armenia and the information war

What will we gain by doing that?

Nothing, except the satisfaction of having Azeris taste their own medicine. Let them know next time not to touch our historic sites. As I said, that's the only way you can make an Azeri understand something - they don't understand reason or civility.

[Federate]

Re: Armenia and the information war

We should burn down the remaining Mosques in Karabakh. Azeris only learn when they get a taste of their own medicine, which is violence.

No, we should keep the mosques and renovate them. It works well for our image. They are the destroyers of culture, we are the preservers.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Armenia and the information war

Nothing, except the satisfaction of having Azeris taste their own medicine. Let them know next time not to touch our historic sites. As I said, that's the only way you can make an Azeri understand something - they don't understand reason or civility.

So there is no gain for Armenia in it and it will make us look like an ass. I'm against the destruction of any important historical building, history needs to be persevered.