Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

When Turkey achieved the incorporation of Nakhichevan in the Azerbaijani Republic, it also bought from Iran a strip of land to achieve common borders with Nakhichevan.

This just shows how deeply ingrained that false belief is. Repeat a lie often enough and all the people start to think it is true.

[Catharsis]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Sorry, for some reason I thought you were Turkish. But your attitudes towards (and suspicions of) cartography seem "oriental".

And this sounds very much like a bigoted and racist statement!

[Catharsis]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

This just shows how deeply ingrained that false belief is. Repeat a lie often enough and all the people start to think it is true.

You probably did not even take the time to review countless books that have been published by authors that have very little to do with either side and were just snippets of diplomatic and political events in history.

For all the talk, you have produced NO DOCUMENT or ANY SORT OF PROOF to back up what you are implying. So there you have it, lots of talk and nothing substantial to back it up, versus - peer-reviewed serious scholars and authentic maps dating from the time.

[Armanen]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Repeat a lie often enough and all the people start to think it is true.

Yeah, it's kinda similar to not admiting when you're wrong

[Catharsis]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

This just shows how deeply ingrained that false belief is. Repeat a lie often enough and all the people start to think it is true.

Nakhchivan, Nakhchivan, Nakhchivan, Nakhchivan....By God yes, its Nakhchivan.

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

This has nothing to do with maps - it is to do with a lie.

The piece of Armenian propaganda that started this discussion was a false claim that in the 1930s Turkey had taken land from Iran in order to create a land-bridge to Nakhchivan, and a claim that this proved that Turkey has had a long-term malevolent intent towards the Armenian state. I can imagine that stuff being included in the sound-bite-filled pamphlets that Armenians distribute to non-Armenians in an attempt to garnish support for this or that cause. The same pamphlets include things like the fake Hitler quote, the probably-fake Andonian telegraphs, etc. Those lies are so easily disproved that the entire message is called into question, and the entire cause is damaged.

A lot of Armenians have ideas about Armenian history that have little or no basis in fact, the sort of ideas that make neutral observers cringe with embarrassement and want to distance themselves from anything to do with Armenians. This is the core reason why non-Armenians must have little faith in Armenian historiography. And things are getting worse as each year passes.

During the Soviet period, Soviet history was of course heavily manipulated, but in general most of what was before the Soviet period was written about accurately, and Armenian historians had a desire to follow best practices - even if they were often not allowed to.

Since the end of the Soviet era, there are a growing number of extreme nationalists in Armenia and fanatics amongst the diaspora who try to use history as a tool to further their particular ideologies. Of course things are not (yet) as bad as Turkish historiography, and still very far removed from the blatant lies produced by Azerbaijan. However, unless the Armenian intelligentsia start to stand up to the sort of bigots who have filled this thread with their nonsense, Armenian historiography will be ranked below even that of Turkey (where things are improving, not going backwards). Is the Armenian intelligentsia limited to Ara Baliozoian with his mannered, insular, often fey and weasely tricky writings? Turkey doesn't need truths to be known or lies to be discredited for it to survive - but Armenia's very survival may rest on certain truths being widely and internationally known.

Armenian extremism, especially against Armenians, isn't anything new.

http://www.amazon.com/Armenian-Revolutionary-Federation-Dashnags-gymnastics/dp/B0007H9OT4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256454523&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/PATRIOTISM-PERVERTED-DISCUSSION-REVOLUTIONARY-DASHRAGHZOUTUN/dp/B002MZKL00/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256454523&sr=1-3

Even Soghomon Tehlirian killed many Armenians in Istanbul (as was the tashnag policy during the genocide).

It's amazing what you can do to your own people by calling them 'traitors'.

And I'm certain nationalism isn't very strong in Armenia, including nationalist parties. They're just wealthy because they're imports.

Though its true Armenian 'revolutionaries' are still begging from crumbs from imperialists (ironic considering they're also supposed to be socialist) they usually are doing so more to maintain control over their followers than actually convincing anyone to care, which Armenian history tells us is impossible.

But all said and done, we are nowhere near as bad as turks, in nationalism, propaganda, or self delusion.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

But all said and done, we are nowhere near as bad as turks, in nationalism, propaganda, or self delusion.

Armen Ayvazyan, the Armenian equivalent of Kemal Kerinçsiz?

YEREVAN COURTS ENTERTAINS AN ACTION ON ARMENIAN GENOCIDE DENIAL

PanARMENIAN.Net
19.10.2009 11:43 GMT+04:00

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ First instance court of Kentron and Nork Marash
communities of Yerevan entertained an action Ararat strategic research
center director Armen Ayvazyan filed against Caucasus Institute.

The judicial day has not been determined yet, spokesperson for Court
of Cassation Alina Yengoyan told PanARMENIAN.Net.

Caucasus Institute, whose administration is accused by Ayvazyan of
Armenian Genocide denial, has not received a summons either.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Nakhchivan, Nakhchivan, Nakhchivan, Nakhchivan....By God yes, its Nakhchivan.

Ahhh, yes Nakhichivan - another laughable "historical fact", this time it is one invented in Armenia by the Armenian Church during the early 19th century, at a time when historians elsewhere were discarding such medievalist folk-etymology explanations.
That same medievalist folk etymology mindset is still alive and flourishing, one need only look at what most Armenians consider the word Karabakh to mean and their ill-judged attempts to remove it use. Many want to deny their own history because they don't know what its true origin probably is.

[Catharsis]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Ahhh, yes Nakhichivan - another laughable "historical fact", this time it is one invented in Armenia by the Armenian Church during the early 19th century, at a time when historians elsewhere were discarding such medievalist folk-etymology explanations.

Of course, the Turkic distortion is much more "historically factual." Who needs to use Armenian names with their Armenian pronunciations for Armenian historical places?

That same medievalist folk etymology mindset is still alive and flourishing, one need only look at what most Armenians consider the word Karabakh to mean and their ill-judged attempts to remove it use.

And this says nothing since you are not making your case about the word Karabakh. Can you be specific?

Many want to deny their own history because they don't know what its true origin probably is.

Another empty allusion that means nothing. Can you elaborate?

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

You probably did not even take the time to review countless books that have been published by authors that have very little to do with either side and were just snippets of diplomatic and political events in history.

For all the talk, you have produced NO DOCUMENT or ANY SORT OF PROOF to back up what you are implying. So there you have it, lots of talk and nothing substantial to back it up, versus - peer-reviewed serious scholars and authentic maps dating from the time.

I already told you that the strip is clearly shown as being within Russian territory in multiple maps, including those in "Armenia: A Historical Atlas"
by Robert H. Hewsen" (http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/332284.html). You have no sources: thumbnail maps and press-releases by Armenian fanatics don't count as sources.

But I know nothing I say will make an Armenian discard his or her childish fantasies. You seem to love them like a masochist loves a painful rotting tooth - no amount of persuading and reasoning will make you get it pulled out!