Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Haykakan]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Throughout the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, civilian residents
of Armenian and Azerbaijani settlements located close to the frontier
have occasionally crossed it, usually because of going astray.

In one such incident, Manvel Saribekian, a 20-year-old Armenian
villager, was captured by Azerbaijani border troops in September
2010. Saribekian was found hanged in an Azerbaijani prison cell three
weeks later.

The Azerbaijani government said he committed suicide, a claim strongly
denied by the Armenian authorities. Citing traces of violence on the
young man's body, they said he was brutally tortured and murdered in
Azerbaijani custody.

Saribekian's body was subsequently swapped for a living Azerbaijani
civilian who was detained in Armenia in 2009.

[Hovo]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Zinuj (01.12.2012)
Zinuj (02.12.2012)

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

What kind of military education do you have to make such statements?
From my experience of leading people a real team spirit is formed when people are put in tough situations and have to work together to get out of it and not from dancing and other things that will not help them doing their jobs.
You used the navy seals, one of most elite units that exist today, as a bad example? Why not learn from them and use their techniques as much as possible (because for some of the things they do you have to be crazy)?
We need to learn from the best and see how they do it and adapt it to our situation. So that is why I think the Armenian military needs to do more field trainings with the jogats and also introduce history to the jogats. What I mean by that is, every jogat gets its own identity and spirit and its own banner. Give the soldiers a sign that they can wear with pride and have different jogats compete to be the best, us humans grow to our true potential when we are competing with others.

Thanks For the comment KaroTheGreat.
Maybe it is my fault for dropping a subject like this and it maybe misunderstood. I don't know if you have read my earlier comments, because you would see that I mention navy seals as one of the best and literally say that we've got lot to learn from them. I was not criticizing them, but putting a comparison to their methods and what can we do to fit us. I am not saying putting soldiers in tough situations is not a good way to teach them (քավ լիցի…).
I was talking about national identity in our army. About a method that not only teaches but goes under skin to shape the solder. Our lake Sevan is colder than pacific ocean, but I don't think that putting a squad in there would bond our soldiers together like it bonds americans. It would not have the same effect. It would teach, but something will be missing.
To describe what is in my mind, I have to write much and maybe get some guys fed up with me. So please excuse me for this.
I will not go deep into russian schism(RASKOL), that started in MID 17th century, grew up with establishment of serfdom and was generally peoples way of rejecting westernization and empire's suppression of the church and rebelling against it. It developed into an alternative governance and set laws (ZAKON, զակոն), that controlled lives and relationships despite empire's laws, keeping old slavonic orthodox traditions. However from mid 19th century criminal figures started penetrating in and turning it into shadowy governance calling it Vorovskoy zakon (գողական օրենք). Their leaders were called Vori V Zakone, Thieves in the law (օրենքով գող).
You might ask, what have all this to do with military? The fact is that from late 19th century and especially after revolution in 1917, the shadowy figures with their laws penetrated the army with establishment of dedovshchina (Stariks). Now just like in russian jails and gulag (the way those figures set rules and controlled people and lives with their laws, in defiance of authorities), in the army Stariks too, would control how conscripts interacted and behaved, in defiance of army command. This would undermine the military discipline and morale of the solders, lower willingness to carry out orders. Corruption, alcoholism and interpersonal abuses became common with it too.
Soviet army has always downplayed the dedovschina problem and besides few attempts could never master the will to bring an end to it. After WWII, for a while, discipline and morale were high because war veterans were pretty much in control of army from top down. But after 25-30 years they were gone and new generation fell under heavy influence of stariks and morale and discipline fell very low. In afghan war sometimes discipline would disintegrate so low that in some cases soviet solders and officers would sell their weapons and materiel(even to enemy) in order to get alcohol or narcotics. You've seen the movie "Platoon", the corruption and absence of morale. Soviet army had this ailment much much deeper and stronger.
After independence, just like in all other post soviet republics, and establishment of national army, dedovschina became alive as well. Remember those cases of abuse and homicides recently? Sometimes it even penetrates into the highest ranks. Thru soviet times as well as now parents are mindful of sending their sons to army not because of fear of war, but because of fear of corruption and harsh, inhumane treatments of their sons by shadowy figures in army.
There is something interesting happening now and some of you may agree that it is vey troublesome.
Right after collapse of soviet union, because of vacuum in national governments and breaking down of laws, Vori V Zakone ( the thieves in the law) came out from shadows and in atmosphere of lawlessness and business opportunities metamorphosed into oligarchs. But as they are anti societal and anti national (don't be fooled with their nationalistic facades), they have been chocking to death economic and social progresses in almost every post soviet republic.
At this time our army is controlled by Artsakh war veterans, former fedayins, and there seem to be silent understanding between those veterans and oligarchs (who control civil government) not to engage in struggle and possibly in large unrest against one another, because it would weaken country in Artsakh dispute, and even oligarchs know that loosing Artsakh would put Armenia (and their own livelihood) in question.
Even though the Dedovschina is there, in the army, and sometimes raises it's ugly head, we see a genuine effort to eradicate it, being carried out by concerned authorities.
But we know that in 15-20 years those veterans will be gone and new military generation could fall under heavy control of oligarchs or shadowy groups. No matter how big efforts are put into it, the Dedovschina or any similar group can easily infest and disrupt military functions in future. So the metamorphosis of dedovschina into national army leadership would be very sad page in our history.
I am one of those thinking that in order to get rid of oligarchs, the whole Armenian citizenry has to change. Liberate itself from russian/soviet serf-communist subject mentality and evolve into a strong and active national entity that will make it impossible for oligarchs to exist within.
The same way we have to develop (or dig up from our national memory) the entity of Armenian soldier/warrior to guarantee against dedovschina, corruption and ensure continuos strength of our army. It is a matter of national survival and one of the first priorities.
Another point I notice is that being under influence and guidance of azadamardiks and some dedicated command, the army is developing into a well maintained military structure where conscripts behave and perform as soldiers like polished sprockets in a well functioning gear box. There is no problem with that, but without a strong and unique identity and developed national warrior character the solders could grow up militarily, but ideologically stay vulnerable.
I am not saying nothing is being done in regards of the national soldier character. Books are being written, history analyzed and national heroes studied and honored. But when looking at the dangers and problems our army and the country are facing in and out, sometimes I think that maybe not enough is being done.
Before getting too much into bla bla let me put down some points and lets see what you guys think.


You remember the serials called "Banakum"? I loved it and watched with pleasure. But in my opinion it was a failure in that, it never really depicted who is Armenian soldier.


Please click at the link below, or copy paste it. It is "Karin-Shatakh warrior dance". See how wonderfully it enacts combat maneuvering, charge, engagement and retreat. Remember that it was danced by armenian men especially before going to battle. It is no more harder than any marching drill. (nowadays marching parades are almost like a dance anyway).
Try to feel yourself dancing it with your squad, your buddies, before an event or assignment. How would you feel? What would it do for you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSrHZ2UsWKs

The other point is the ուխտ(covenant). We have the swearing in ceremony in army. It is an important event, but in our culture we have something more powerful than that. It is the ուխտ that warrior makes, dedicating himself to a purpose ( be it for life or to achieve something very special). Nobody will ask or expect him to do so. He makes it himself with god and his comrades as witness. He must arrive to this point all by himself. Lot of fedayins took this, and for their decision were respected and supported by family and friends. But it was expected that they displayed a certain behavior and conduct after making and until fulfilling their covenant, otherwise it was the biggest dishonor to be seen as someone who broke his ուխտ. He would loose all respect and be ridiculed. In our army, from Vardan's times and on, this warriors would hold special place. They were considered above ordinary solders and were consulted in important matters. Sometimes their word would be equal to superior's. Having the same covenant they bonded together and a commander would sometimes approach to a soldier who had made the covenant as an equal. We saw this in Artsakh war.
Now my idea is, can it be that our army institutionalizes the ուխտ as not mandatory but a step to a level for a soldier kind, that gives him responsibility and recognition as being in a special group of brotherhood of people, that has also members from every rank who also made the same covenant, being the carriers and enforcers of fighting spirit and that nobody can go against? I mean as a new conscript next to a son of an oligarch, who wants all kind of privileges, no running and marching and wants to dictate everybody else for his benefit, I would feel safe if I knew that there is a soldier in my unit, who is a member of special brotherhood because he is a special, dedicated and excellent soldier and who will help me put this idiot in his place and nobody, not his father with any corrupt captain can do anything because he and his brothers are united and flawless in their character enforcement. I my opinion this is an excellent means of guaranties against dedovschina.

I will stop at this and see if anybody else have any ideas.

By the way in the battle of Isandlwana, in 1879, Zulus with spears, shields, bows and arrows gave the british mighty army who were armed with trapdoor and repeating rifles, one of the worst military defeat they ever suffered in 19Th century. It's like in 1990 fedayins with hunting rifles wiping out a detachment of today's navy seals who are being aided with apache helicopters. Go think… You know how Zulus sing and dance… LOL. But you maybe don't know that they had one of the best military disciplines in 19th century with their national military warrior character that worked for them…

[burjuin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Defense Army of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic.

[Mos]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I'd like some people to investigate here the use of Israeli drone technology in developing our own drones. There some inside sources that suggest this.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I'd like some people to investigate here the use of Israeli drone technology in developing our own drones. There some inside sources that suggest this.

Funny that some people thing that all that is Israeli tech. Shows them reaaaly smart yea?
Nobody talks about the research and development work in usa companies that are contracted by govenment then shelved with varios reasons. Little later the tech products show up as Israeli made.
Shows how they are the brains right?
We use israeli or US drone tech in our drones?

[Mos]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Funny that some people thing that all that is Israeli tech. Shows them reaaaly smart yea?
Nobody talks about the research and development work in usa companies that are contracted by govenment then shelved with varios reasons. Little later the tech products show up as Israeli made.
Shows how they are the brains right?
We use israeli or US drone tech in our drones?

Don't shoot the messenger. The selling of Israeli drones to Azerbaijan has a connection. Russia is using similar tactic in selling weapons to Armenia and Azerbaijan.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Don't shoot the messenger. The selling of Israeli drones to Azerbaijan has a connection. Russia is using similar tactic in selling weapons to Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Sorry... LOL Wanted to say shows Israyelis really smart ha? Not "shows them really smart ha"?

[londontsi]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I'd like some people to investigate here the use of Israeli drone technology in developing our own drones. There some inside sources that suggest this.

When you research a military product you need to look at ( if available) non export version.
The producing country will rarely export same spec as available to its armed forces.

Another route of technology research would be to look at model aeroplanes which have become very sophisticated.
Many try to emulate all desirable features of military drones.

Next stage could be to use this as a platform to improve by ruggedizing and militarizing the product.

Then could be by looking at suitable components ( sub systems ) to achieve higher level of a product than the model version.
Its surprising how much information is available on line.


.

[Mos]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Sorry... LOL Wanted to say shows Israyelis really smart ha? Not "shows them really smart ha"?

???

When you research a military product you need to look at ( if available) non export version.
The producing country will rarely export same spec as available to its armed forces.

Another route of technology research would be to look at model aeroplanes which have become very sophisticated.
Many try to emulate all desirable features of military drones.

Next stage could be to use this as a platform to improve by ruggedizing and militarizing the product.

Then could be by looking at suitable components ( sub systems ) to achieve higher level of a product than the model version.
Its surprising how much information is available on line.


.

Israel wants business from Azerbaijan. The best way to get that business is to give the technology they (Azeris) are buying to Armenia through other channels (Russia). This is not speculation actually, if you don't want to believe me, fine, but this is not something coming out of the air.