Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

While that is understandable, the only thing moral high ground contributes to is international support and troop morale. Honor has nothing to do with it, honor is just an illusion that has been fabricated to rationalize murder, killing, and suffering. Honor, fortunately, is an illusion that has been lifted out of most armed forces. (Honor didn't do anything for the Japanese)

I agree, Azeris have not exactly done anything that makes them look good, and don't plan on it, but simply moral high ground wont win wars. What wins wars, is professionalism, organization, preparedness, and wit.

I would never equate today's Azeri conscripts to criminals. I would say, that they are just 18 year old boys, being pushed to sit at a trench all day, get shot at, and be sincerely fearful for their lives.

They do not compare to ours, because Armenian soldiers experience alot less troubles, better training, and regularly have their morale boosted. Armenian soldiers are general much more professional, and their morale is high. Just look at the 2010 skirmish, we watched either Azeri military quality plummet, or Armenian military quality sky rocket in the last few years. I think we thank our Defense minister for that.

Its not about righteousness, or honor. You know who else feels righteous? ISIS. Righteousness, like honor, is an illusion.

Chubs jan, to argue about azery fears you got to know their mentality, which in big part is based in their history and religion.
They had centuries grinding themselvs against human values in their survival and progresses that has left deep sludge in their mentality. When an azery 18 years old conscript wrights to his mom (as seen in a documental video, where an Armenian takes it from dead azeri and reads it), and besides how much he misses her only talks about hopes of victory soon and how he hopes to return home with lots of "good things"(loot abviousely), but not a word about his duties or in case, his sacrifice for homeland should console her with her knowing that sacrifice was for right, says it all.
I don't like to start philosophy.
But in their conduct in war, in frontline, with wounded, captured and civilians that end up in their hands amounts to simple criminal behaviour. They have knowingly emptied their behavior from collective honor or righteoseness in favor of their opportunistic ways to success(their version of ideals). Otherwise there would not be turkey and azerbaijan today. That is how a nation will convince itself that if it has commited a genocide of millions of innocent is not bad as it is told or it can be forgotten.
Nobody is talking about professionalism, organization, preparedness, and wit. Nobody is arguing against those. You are comparing apples to oranges.
But denying importance of concepts of righteuseness and honor in war is very naive.
Wars are all about killing and suffering. You can go to it skilled and trained or not. But skills are not big enough motivation to go to war, they are tools to conduct it.
People will go into it and then find out they have not enough to endure because they are not motivated enough to go tru it. Other things than honor, love for homeland and desire to set things right cannot withstand hardship against horrors of war for long. But history is full of examples of unskilled and unprepared and unsupplied armies winning against otherwise. Our Artsakh war is an example.
Do not ever think that azeris are not trying to train, equip and prepare their army harder than us. They do indeed. They even got turks and israelis along others busting their asses to get azery army in shape for all theese years, along with oversupplying them at least 2 to 1 to ours.
So why is that when moments of thruth comes their training and skills fly out while our boys act like bedevilled superhumans? It's behind anything that you can train yourself.
It's all because our soldier is ready to do the imposible because of love of homeland, his nations and his honor and because it is the right thing to do.
You mentioned ISIS. This is exactly what I am saying. Because of feeling righteous and honorable (thru dictates of their religion though) they win against well supplied and trained by US Iraqi army, that throws it's weapons and runs away.
War is all about convictions.

P.S. To further proove my point. Take example Ramil Safarov. He got trained in Cyprus by turkish special ops. But his skills were enough only to ax a sleeping "enemy" in a neutral city in joint class.
He could never face our guy in trench like he did, because he did not have a concept of honor or righteousness in his soul. And he is azerbaijan's national hero...

[Chubs]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Chubs jan, to argue about azery fears you got to know their mentality, which in big part is based in their history and religion.
They had centuries grinding themselvs against human values in their survival and progresses that has left deep sludge in their mentality. When an azery 18 years old conscript wrights to his mom (as seen in a documental video, where an Armenian takes it from dead azeri and reads it), and besides how much he misses her only talks about hopes of victory soon and how he hopes to return home with lots of "good things"(loot abviousely), but not a word about his duties or in case, his sacrifice for homeland should console her with her knowing that sacrifice was for right, says it all.
I don't like to start philosophy.
But in their conduct in war, in frontline, with wounded, captured and civilians that end up in their hands amounts to simple criminal behaviour. They have knowingly emptied their behavior from collective honor or righteoseness in favor of their opportunistic ways to success(their version of ideals). Otherwise there would not be turkey and azerbaijan today. That is how a nation will convince itself that if it has commited a genocide of millions of innocent is not bad as it is told or it can be forgotten.
Nobody is talking about professionalism, organization, preparedness, and wit. Nobody is arguing against those. You are comparing apples to oranges.
But denying importance of concepts of righteuseness and honor in war is very naive.
Wars are all about killing and suffering. You can go to it skilled and trained or not. But skills are not big enough motivation to go to war, they are tools to conduct it.
People will go into it and then find out they have not enough to endure because they are not motivated enough to go tru it. Other things than honor, love for homeland and desire to set things right cannot withstand hardship against horrors of war for long. But history is full of examples of unskilled and unprepared and unsupplied armies winning against otherwise. Our Artsakh war is an example.
Do not ever think that azeris are not trying to train, equip and prepare their army harder than us. They do indeed. They even got turks and israelis along others busting their asses to get azery army in shape for all theese years, along with oversupplying them at least 2 to 1 to ours.
So why is that when moments of thruth comes their training and skills fly out while our boys act like bedevilled superhumans? It's behind anything that you can train yourself.
It's all because our soldier is ready to do the imposible because of love of homeland, his nations and his honor and because it is the right thing to do.
You mentioned ISIS. This is exactly what I am saying. Because of feeling righteous and honorable (thru dictates of their religion though) they win against well supplied and trained by US Iraqi army, that throws it's weapons and runs away.
War is all about convictions.

P.S. To further proove my point. Take example Ramil Safarov. He got trained in Cyprus by turkish special ops. But his skills were enough only to ax a sleeping "enemy" in a neutral city in joint class.
He could never face our guy in trench like he did, because he did not have a concept of honor or righteousness in his soul. And he is azerbaijan's national hero...

Well, thanks for explaining that to me Hakob, it helps me better understand your position. You got me there on the ISIS stuff, you are right about that. Lets just hope "righteousness" doesn't go overboard

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Well, thanks for explaining that to me Hakob, it helps me better understand your position. You got me there on the ISIS stuff, you are right about that. Lets just hope "righteousness" doesn't go overboard

Thank you too Chubs jan.
We need skilled and well supplied army that is well motivated, having unified peope behind, whith solid national goals to achieve.

[Eddo211]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

When it comes to war Armenians suddenly become unified but never in peace time......go figure that one out.

Azad Artsakh

[Chubs]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

When it comes to war Armenians suddenly become unified but never in peace time......go figure that one out.

Azad Artsakh

Well, I got those Lubawa helmets IDed. Hyefighter is correct, they are Polish copes of the MICH 2000, thats really good news. I would imagine they would be supplied to special forces first. Great thing, they are modular, you can mount night vision, communication, etc on them. That means our SF will no longer have to have head mounts for the NV.

[londontsi]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Your right Hakob, morality & decency & honor are --- REAL --- things and important to one and all.
Goes to the very core of who we are.

A quote from the post by chubs Hakob referes to ... Honor is bs ...
For all to see ...

A critical element of a confident fighter is high morale.

Best way to raise moral is a spirit lifting speech by the commander before an engagement. Age old technique.

Invariably the words, morality, decency, honour , in the eyes of God etc etc would be part of the vocabulary in lifting the moral of the soldiers.

It works with kids, with labour force , soldiers, political speeches etc etc.

What the reality my be in detail is a different story, it will camouflage reality.

Of course moral lifting techniques without substance is BS, you have to be believable.

.

[ArmeniaSacra]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Well, xxxx me silly, they did do an operation. Now I feel like a complete moron lol. Sorry guys




You are suggesting that a conventional army takes up guerilla warfare tactics when it is not necessary. The helicopter was 200 meters away. All it took was bounding and peeling like I said.

The Armenian Army is not hezbollah, you are requesting they take up a completely different style of fighting, or even a hybrid style that would take a decade to implement and perfect. This is not asymmetrical warfare, we have the firepower to repel any attack.


If you want to avoid a war, do not respond to the helicopter downing militarily. Simply do not fly helicopters near the LoC during any possible training flight. Partial blame goes to Armenians for this incident as well, those helicopters should have never been there in the first place.

Good job and a thumbs up to our boys, they did it like true operators should. Bound to the objective, and then peel back with your comrades remains. I did not expect them to do this, that was ballsy Ill admit. (Diplomatically of course) I would have preferred a diplomatic solution, if Azeris and Armenians were able to cooperate on such an occassion, then It would have foreshadowed a possible truce for both sides.

Chill brother...I am not suggesting anything...I just said that tunnel warfare is real, i.e. there is something called tunnel warfare and it's not funny! Other than that, in my response I neither "suggested" nor "requested" anything...I just commented on your "lol" just to tell you that something like that exists...maybe now is not the time to discuss tunnel warfare but when 2 armies are preparing for imminent war (which sooner or later will happen) and when the Armenian army will be on the defensive (at least at first, because we will never start the war, they will)...preparing tunnels in the Karabakh mountains (for defensive purposes) can be hell for the azeris...of course these cannot be manned by a conventional army (i agree with you), and I'm not sure if Armenia has the necessary means to prepare small paramilitary squads with anti-tank missiles to give them hell...anyway...I'm sure our military commanders know much better than I of what and how to prepare...But as far as my response went in my last post...you did quite a large elaboration of something I didn't say! have a good day!

[Ak105]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Haha my dad read somewhere that the azeri government fired their officer after our special forces took the bodies back to armenia ��������

[Chubs]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Haha my dad read somewhere that the azeri government fired their officer after our special forces took the bodies back to armenia ��������

Well I dont know about that, but they do claim that Armenians dug up random bodies and put them in the same clothes the pilot was in...Lol it was an Armenian-joo conspiracy false flag operation. Next thing ya know, Armenians will be putting fluoride in their water

http://www.eurasianet.org/node/71061

Oh my goodness, how absolutely fking stupid can these people get? First, they lie about the helicopter location, then they start red-pilling like crazy.

They also claim that the body would have never been able to be intact, yet they forget about MH17 where 200 bodies fell from 33,000 ft after surviving an explosion and landing on the plains of Donbass. These people are pulling suspicions out of their ass.

[ninetoyadome]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

azeris talking out of their asses again. This azeri is an expert and is unbiased so we have to believe him. It's not like azeris have lied before.

Azerbaijani Defense Ministry exposes the lies of Armenians (photos) (video)
November 23, 2014, 20:21

Military-political regime in Armenia raises around downed Armenian military helicopter hype to attract the attention of the international community, as well as to reassure his people. But at the same time, the Armenian side is steadily spreading disinformation to confuse the facts and trying to find justification for their acts, haqqin.az reported the press service of the Ministry of Defense.

"Azerbaijani Defense Ministry once again said that the information distributed in the Armenian media about the removal of the remains of the crew members and some parts of the helicopter, as well as held for this purpose a special operation by the Armenian side, is fiction and has no reason to. This information is intended to divert attention Armenian people, "- said in a statement.



The report said that the experts on aviation in one voice say, that provided by the Armenian side frames are professionally trained in video editing.

It is hard to imagine what state the bodies could be handed over to their relatives. With the explosion and hit the ground combat helicopter Mi-24, the bodies of those on board the pilots should have come to such a state that they can not show the public.

It is impossible that the body of the pilot, crashed on the 11-ton car, hitting the ground at a speed of 250 km / h, it was in such a state, it shows how the Ministry of Defense of Armenia.

When the human body burns, its different parts begin to deform. It is impossible that the dead body of the pilot is in a perfect horizontal position, as seen in the video footage disseminated by the Armenian side. This may confirm any pathologist.

Experts also doubt that the presented video footage military uniform pilots corresponds to the form that puts the crew of the Mi-24.

Aviation expert questioned the authenticity and almost perfectly preserved parachute. Helicopter after being hit by missile complex "Igla" fell to the ground only 3-4 seconds, then exploded and burned. The helicopter crew just physically could not eject during these few seconds. Therefore, the version of the bailout Armenian pilots does not hold water. In addition, the parachutes are made of nylon bystrovosplamenyayuschegosya, and they could not survive in the form in which are shown on a propaganda video of the Armenian side.



All these facts lead to the conclusion that provided by the Armenian side motion pictures have nothing to shoot down the helicopter.

Help an expert in the field of military flights:

- Combat helicopter Mi-24 is not equipped with ejection system;

- To the crew was able to leave the faulty machine, provided equipment helicopter crew parachutes, and the commander of the machine and the operator provided parachutes-4 (C-4U), and mechanic - parachute PN-58;

- The crew leaves the unmanaged native command commander in the following order: the operator, mechanic and the last car leaves the commander;

- Terms of evacuation of the helicopter following: Operator - through an access hatch, mechanic through the cargo door on the left side of the machine, the crew commander - through an access hatch;

- If the altitude does not exceed 130 meters, the crew does not wear parachutes;

- When the flight speed of 202 km / h for the deployment of the parachute required height should be at least 60 meters.



In this video you can see that after the shot was a powerful explosion, and then the helicopter for 3-4 seconds fell to the ground. To pilot recovered from the shock when hit missiles and decided to eject, you need at least 7-10 seconds of time.

Given all this, we can safely say that the approval of the Armenian side, as if the corpse is shown the dead pilot, nothing more than nonsense and nonsense.

After all, it is necessary to take into account the following human factors:

-from the blast wave hit by a rocket pilot falls into shock;

- Only take place after the shock, the pilot must make the decision to evacuate in extreme conditions, while observing all safety precautions.

Do not forget about the other important technical factors:

Warhead man-portable air defense systems (MANPADS) type "Igla" weighs 1.5 kg and packed with shrapnel. If we start from video frames provided by the Armenian side, it can be concluded that the point of the explosion occurred directly overhead crew commander. In this case, the likelihood that the body of the crew members are not burned by the explosion is zero. Even if we assume that some of them were thrown from the helicopter blast, fire the same blast wave would have resulted in their bodies unrecognizable appearance. It is impossible that the body of a pilot survived in the form in which it is represented by the Armenians.