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Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

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  • #1941
    Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

    Some more pics...








    Comment

    • #1942
      Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

      The original Madrid principles stipulated that the first step is for Armenian forces be removed in phases, but the updated one has omitted the word phases meaning they must all leave at once from the 5 territories bordering NKR except for the Kelbajar and Lachin districts that immediately border Armenia which means that the Armenian forces should first leave not the entire Lachin district, but its 13 villages. As it appears both leaders of Armenia and "Azerbaijan" have agreed on this updated Madrid principles to a small degree with their own preconditions though.

      Aliyev wants the final status of NKR to become within the Azerbaijani territorial integrity as it was in Soviet borders which the Madrid principle does not support as mentioned in that Azeri article posted by Tigranakert due to the omission of article I (sovereignty) in the Madrid principle.
      In fact I don’t think that would be possible by the people of NKR after return of Azeris there to vote (damn) for the territory to become part of Azerbaijan even if they outnumber the Armenians on the votes but I am not 100% sure and that would be ridiculous for us to accept.

      President Sarkisian last statement has been
      “Nagorno-Karabakh was not a part of independent Azerbaijan. It was the Caucasus Bureau of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union which attached Nagorno-Karabakh to Azerbaijan. Why did the international community acclaim the collapse of the Soviet Union and not consider Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan part and parcel of the Soviet Union? And in the case with Karabakh the international community is still saying it is an integral part of Azerbaijan? It is not logical, is it?”
      He said that six months ago and nothing since then as I know.

      Regardless, Armenian side says that nothing will be agreed until everything is agreed upon. Also Armenia support NKR leadership for being involved in the final stages of this agreement with a say in it. The leaders of NKR say that the Lachin and Kelbacar should not be returned to Azerbaijan until the final status of NKR is determined. Furthermore they want the status be decided by a "legally binding expression of will" instead of a "Referendum".

      I don’t know how much more complicated this can get. They were even arguing over the word “preamble” in the title of the principles that will set the tone for NKR final status. I think this is one of the things that has been resolved.

      I have a feeling that it would be in our advantage to maintain status quo. Armenian forces should not be removed from any districts until NKR status is determined. They are going about this backwards if you ask me. They want to disarm us and then overwhelm us with migration while the status of NKR still is undetermined completely ignoring the NKR government.



      Originally posted by Haykakan View Post
      This explains why Armenia doesn't just claim Artsakh and chooses to let it be a independent second armenian state. I never understood this untill i read these articles. Thank you for posting them.
      How do you figure?
      B0zkurt Hunter

      Comment

      • #1943
        Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

        Originally posted by Eddo211 View Post
        Originally Posted by Haykakan View Post
        This explains why Armenia doesn't just claim Artsakh and chooses to let it be a independent second armenian state. I never understood this untill i read these articles. Thank you for posting them.

        How do you figure?
        Having Artsakh as a separate state does have the advantage of allowing Armenia to store large number of military equipment that can far surpass the limits currently in place on Armenia (I believe due to an agreement signed after the collapse of Soviet Union). Since, technically, Artsakh is not part of Armenia (in the sense that Armenia never annexed the area) then the governing body in charge of making sure Armenia doesn't surpass the limits cannot check in Artsakh. It's just an easy method of "hiding" military equipment. That said, Azerbaijan has surpassed its limit already 10 years ago, but still, having "extra" equipment in Artsakh keeps the Azeris from b!tching about it to the international community. Also, since Artsakh is a separate state, Armenia "cannot legally impose its will" onto Artsakh, as only the people and government of Artsakh can determine their fate. This effectively relieves some pressure as Armenia "supports" Artsakh, but "does not control" it, meaning even if Armenia and Azerbaijan come to an "understanding" Armenia won't have to withdraw any troops since Armenia "doesn't" have any troops in Artsakh, as the troops in Artsakh are "Kharabakhci" (though internally, the two armies are inseparable).

        The negative point is of course the fact that if Azerbaijan does actually attack Artsakh, it won't be considered an "attack on Armenia", but this is all legal speak. In reality, Artsakh is now an inseparable part of Armenia (and the international community knows this), and I don't see a future where any part of Artsakh will be given back to the azeris (by Artsakh I mean all the territories under control, not just Karabakh proper)

        Comment

        • #1944
          Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

          How do you figure?

          Many in Azerbaijan erroneously interpret inclusion of the principle of territorial integrity as a firm guarantee that the right to self-determination of Karabakh Armenian population can only be exercised within the borders of Azerbaijan Republic i.e. widest form of autonomy but not independence. There is no basis for this assumption in the legal reading of the text of the Helsinki Final Act. In fact, the principle of territorial integrity refers only to relations amongst states, members of OSCE, and has no relevance to issues of secession or separatism affecting these states internally – it is simply not relevant in that context from a legal perspective. Any international lawyer would confirm that fact.
          Hayastan or Bust.

          Comment

          • #1945
            Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

            Originally posted by levon View Post
            Having Artsakh as a separate state does have the advantage of allowing Armenia to store large number of military equipment that can far surpass the limits currently in place on Armenia (I believe due to an agreement signed after the collapse of Soviet Union). Since, technically, Artsakh is not part of Armenia (in the sense that Armenia never annexed the area) then the governing body in charge of making sure Armenia doesn't surpass the limits cannot check in Artsakh. It's just an easy method of "hiding" military equipment. That said, Azerbaijan has surpassed its limit already 10 years ago, but still, having "extra" equipment in Artsakh keeps the Azeris from b!tching about it to the international community. Also, since Artsakh is a separate state, Armenia "cannot legally impose its will" onto Artsakh, as only the people and government of Artsakh can determine their fate. This effectively relieves some pressure as Armenia "supports" Artsakh, but "does not control" it, meaning even if Armenia and Azerbaijan come to an "understanding" Armenia won't have to withdraw any troops since Armenia "doesn't" have any troops in Artsakh, as the troops in Artsakh are "Kharabakhci" (though internally, the two armies are inseparable).

            The negative point is of course the fact that if Azerbaijan does actually attack Artsakh, it won't be considered an "attack on Armenia", but this is all legal speak. In reality, Artsakh is now an inseparable part of Armenia (and the international community knows this), and I don't see a future where any part of Artsakh will be given back to the azeris (by Artsakh I mean all the territories under control, not just Karabakh proper)
            Bingo!

            didn't think about the military hardware advantage though, cool......with the freaking neighbors Armenia has it would be better to keep it this way.
            According to United States observers NKR held the most democratic elections compared to anywhere, they were shocked.
            B0zkurt Hunter

            Comment

            • #1946
              Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

              Armenian Army:









              Last edited by burjuin; 07-09-2010, 04:56 PM.

              Comment

              • #1947
                Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

                Some more pics...










                Comment

                • #1948
                  Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

                  Minister of Defence visit Iran

                  Հաղորդագրություն մամուլի համար
                  2010թ. հուլիս 17-ից 18-ը Իրանի Իսլամական Հանրապետության պաշտպանության և զինված ուժերի աջակցման նախարարի հրավերով երկօրյա այցով Իրանի Իսլամական Հանրապետություն կմեկնի Հայաստանի Հանրապետության պաշտպանության նախարար Ս.Օհանյանի գլխավորած պատվիրակությունը:
                  Այցի ընթացքում ՀՀ պաշտպանության նախարարը բանակցություններ կվարի Իրանի իր գործընկերոջ հետ, ինչպես նաև հանդիպումներ կունենա Իրանի ռազմաքաղաքական ղեկավարության հետ: Հանդիպումների ընթացքում կքննարկվեն տարածաշրջանային, միջազգային ու երկկողմ հետաքրքրություն ներկայացնող հարցեր:

                  ՀՀ ՊՆ տեղեկատվության և հասարակայնության հետ կապերի վարչություն

                  Comment

                  • #1949
                    Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

                    Originally posted by ArmeniaR View Post
                    Minister of Defence visit Iran

                    Հաղորդագրություն մամուլի համար
                    2010թ. հուլիս 17-ից 18-ը Իրանի Իսլամական Հանրապետության պաշտպանության և զինված ուժերի աջակցման նախարարի հրավերով երկօրյա այցով Իրանի Իսլամական Հանրապետություն կմեկնի Հայաստանի Հանրապետության պաշտպանության նախարար Ս.Օհանյանի գլխավորած պատվիրակությունը:
                    Այցի ընթացքում ՀՀ պաշտպանության նախարարը բանակցություններ կվարի Իրանի իր գործընկերոջ հետ, ինչպես նաև հանդիպումներ կունենա Իրանի ռազմաքաղաքական ղեկավարության հետ: Հանդիպումների ընթացքում կքննարկվեն տարածաշրջանային, միջազգային ու երկկողմ հետաքրքրություն ներկայացնող հարցեր:

                    ՀՀ ՊՆ տեղեկատվության և հասարակայնության հետ կապերի վարչություն
                    Laven anum. Mez hamar Iran shat karevor petutiunna yeh lav klini yete avelatsnenk mer kaper.
                    Hayastan or Bust.

                    Comment

                    • #1950
                      Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

                      IRANIAN PRESIDENT INVITED TO VISIT ARMENIA

                      ArmInfo
                      2010-07-15 17:17:00

                      ArmInfo. Armenian Ambassador to Iran Grigor Arakelian said his country
                      believes Iran has dealt with Nagorno-Karabakh issue unbiasedly.

                      Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan has already declared that Iran's
                      role in settlement of regional issues cannot be ignored, Iran took
                      charge of mediation in Nagorno-Karabakh conflict in 1992 and the
                      first ceasefire between Azeri and Armenian nations declared by the
                      Islamic Republic of Iran, Arakelian told ISNA.

                      He added, "Armenian government is grateful to Iran for Nagorno-Karabakh
                      matter and it believes the Islamic Republic of Iran has acted
                      influentially in regional issues."

                      The ambassador went on to say that Iranian President Mahmoud
                      Ahmadinejad is invited to visit Armenia and his trip takes place in
                      an appropriate time.

                      Meanwhile concerning Ira's nuclear issue, the Armenian diplomat said
                      the matter needs to be settled through talks.

                      Regarding the volume of financial exchanges between the two countries,
                      Arakelian said, "the amount totaling 200 million dollars needs to
                      be increased."

                      As to electricity exchange between the two countries, he said
                      Armenia is building the third high- voltage power transfer line to
                      send electricity to Iran. A hydro-power plant is going to be built
                      on Aras River bordering Iran and Armenia so that the two sides could
                      use it jointly, he added.

                      Grigor Arakelian continued, Armenia is to receive gas from Iran in
                      return for power.
                      Hayastan or Bust.

                      Comment

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