Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Armanen]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

This is silly talk. There is a huge difference between a villager in Martakerd who happens to be a war veteran and a politician in Yerevan that has been meeting with politicians in Moscow, Baku, Ankara, Washington, Brussels, etc. Sargsyan's administration in Yerevan is the last group of people that would undermine Artsakh's independence. They have been around from the beginning, they know what they are doing. Let's not turn this serious geopolitical matter into a street brawl. There are serious economic, strategic and geopolitical factors at play in these types of matters. The reality is, sentiments of soldiers are only good for novels and legends.

There is nothing silly and unfounded about the nature of politics and the corrupting effect it has on people who get involved with it. I was speaking in general terms, not accusing serge or anyone of going against Armenian interests or even promoting them. The point I was trying to make is that we should always be cautious when we hear politicians speak out on issues, especially those as loaded as the Artsakh issue.

[Armenian]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I agree my friends about Hetq's Western infiltration but I find that the war vets are really left in a poor state considering their service to our country (though this is not limited to Armenia).

Dude, this is not the issue. A large percentage of American war veterans are homeless in America.

the war vets have it right when it comes to the Artsakh issue and that is absolutely nothing given back!

Jirayr Sefilian and a bunch of other asswipes in the Levon camp were also war veterans. So what? From Israel to Russia, from America to Afghanistan, from Vietnam to El Salvador soldiers have dealt with these types of issues for ages. At the end of the day, its 'geopolitics' that determines outcomes of wars, not the amount of blood that has been spilled. I don't mean to belittle the courage of war veterans but to take their personal sentiments and apply it to complex geopolitical formulations is silly...

There is nothing silly and unfounded about the nature of politics and the corrupting effect it has on people who get involved with it. I was speaking in general terms, not accusing serge or anyone of going against Armenian interests or even promoting them. The point I was trying to make is that we should always be cautious when we hear politicians speak out on issues, especially those as loaded as the Artsakh issue.

I got your point. I agree with your point. But your point had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.

[gmd]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I disagree that the sentiments of soldiers do not matter. Any nation needs to treat those willing to make such a sacrifice with a degree of respect. Ultimately the degree of respect given to a nations warriors can either encourage or discourage future generations from persuing this path. For a nation such as Armenia this is especially critical considering the many challenges it faces.
I have no personal knowledge of what the relationship is between the current authorities and war veterans in Armenia. However, if the authorities made gestures towards higher ranking veterans that demonstrated a concern for their opinions and sacrifice then it may go a long way in maintaining a unified front and preventing the majority from joining the ranks of questionable opposition leaders.

[Federate]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenian field commander: "It is time to consider Karabakh as part of Armenia, as one of its regions"

29 October 2008 [16:16] - Today.Az
On October 30 Armenian field commander Jirair Sefilyan will declare about the creation of a new political initiative in Yerevan.

Sefilyan intends to establish the union of political powers and personalities, standing against the territorial concessions in the resolution of the Karabakh conflict.

One of the organizers of the operation on Shusha occupation, Jirair Sefilyan considers that it is time for Armenia to change its attitude towards Nagorno Karabakh "as towards an independent state and consider Karabakh to be one of the regions of Armenia".

"We must turn the page of history, when beginning from 1991 we have been considering Karabakh as an independent state. Whom are we deceiving? The whole world knows that the army of "Nagorno Karabakh Republic" is part of the armed forces of Armenia, that the Nagorno Karabakh budget is financed from the budget of Armenia, political leaders of "NKR" are appointed from Yerevan. It is time to regard Karabakh as part of Armenia, as one of its regions. Karabakh should be treated as a territory of Armenia, which must not make any concessions in the negotiation process", said Jirair Sefilyan.

He also considers that Russia has become a country, which is recently putting the biggest pressure on Armenia in the issue of the territorial concessions to Azerbaijan.

"Russia has recently imposed a strong pressure on Armenia, making its leadership to agree on territorial concessions, which was obvious during Medvedev's recent visit to Armenia and from talks of the Russian President with Serzh Sargsyan. Lavrov's statement can be added here as well.

They offer to replace the Armenian armed forces in the liberated lands with international or Russian. Yet, the Russian military presence in Armenia is one thing and we have nothing against it and their presence in the liberated lands is another. We will not allow the repetition of the case.

Russia must not think that it can do whatever it wants to Armenia under such a weak current leadership of our country. We will soon mobilize all our forces and speak against it", said Sefilyan.

He also considers that there is a variant of the resolution of the Karabakh problem without territorial concessions by Armenia.

"Tomorrow I will declare creation of a new political initiative, to be called "Union". The aim of this initiative is unification of all political powers, personalities, the Armenian people, standing against the territorial concessions in the Karabakh conflict. The idea of this union lies in unification and joint resolution of the Karabakh problem.

The conflict resolution should not be left to the illegitimate powers, which do not enjoy people's support and, therefore, are unable to resist external pressure. We will also provide the political, legal and historical grounds for the coalition", said Sefilyan.

/Regnum/

URL: http://www.today.az/news/politics/48602.html

[Armenian]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Who here thinks men like General Douglas MacArthur and General George Smith Patton were not great American patriots with excellent war records?

Who here thinks that their idea to nuke North Korea, China and the Soviet Union after Germany's and Japan's defeat was a good idea?

Who here knows what happened to these great American war heroes?

Sefilian forever tarnished his image after his LTP debacle. Sefilian is a very brave but deeply ignorant "Burjhamudtsi". While Sefilian's current rhetoric is more-or-less valid at face value, if he steps out of line, however, I expect to see him silenced for good.

[gmd]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Old Warriors fade away.

Armenian, are you suggesting we have McArthurs in Armenia? Would Armenia have been better off historically if more people had listened to Andranik? If Monte had survived what do you think his stance would be?

[Armenian]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Old Warriors fade away. Armenian, are you suggesting we have McArthurs in Armenia? Would Armenia have been better off historically if more people had listened to Andranik? If Monte had survived what do you think his stance would be?

Well, we have some war veterans that are still living in a state of war... Andranik was no one to be listened to in politics. The man was a skilled and brave warrior, not a diplomat, nor was he an intellectual... Whatever happened to Armenia at the time had to have happened under those extremely dire circumstances. No one could have changed it. We did not need any war fanatics ruining whatever was left of Armenia. As a matter of fact, had the ARF stubbornly resisted the Bolshevik takeover of Armenia in 1921, we would not even have the Armenia we have today... I don't know what Monte's stance would have been. But I know that soldiers must be soldiers, at least in civilized nations. However, had there been a perceived threat to the territorial integrity of Armenia and/or Artsakh proper, I would expect everyone from war veterans to students to clergy to rise up and put a stop to it. I don't see a danger to the Armenian Republic in negotiating a peace deal with Azeris/Turks today. I do, on the other hand, see a great danger to Armenia if Armenia is forced to indefinitely continue its current path...

[truAnatolian]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Well if karabakh has its independence recognized, I doubt it would be long before it was annexed to Armenia, or if it were to remain independent that would simply be formality and nothing more.

So armenian, you are in the same vortex that I am in. Cede Karabakh and put Armenia on a stable path or hold karabakh, a land that we shed blood and tears for but continue down the same path we are on today......

Here is another interesting Point, Russia is supposed to protect Armenia as a member of the CSTO incase of hostilities against it, but then what about the declaration for use of non-force between russia and azerbaijan? Where does that put Russia, or more importantly Armenia.

[Armenian]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

So armenian, you are in the same vortex that I am in. Cede Karabakh and put Armenia on a stable path or hold karabakh, a land that we shed blood and tears for but continue down the same path we are on today......

What in my comments made you think I would cede Nagorno Karabagh

[gmd]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenian, you know some of these types look for any opportunity to twist words around.

My discussion with you on this is to explore the possibilites and all our options regardless of how desperate they may appear. I do not want Armenians as a whole to march lock step to the dictates of those in power. Even if we must make peace it should not be seen by the other side as a peace that comes at a cheap price and that peace is a favor to us. If nothing else then for long term political reasons the peace cannot return what was won on the battlefield, otherwise the cost of war will be cheap for the Azeris in the future.