Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Vrej1915]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

«Վայ, վայ, վայ, ես չեմ հասկանում, ինչ է կատարվում բոլորի հետ»

ՍԻՐԱՆՈՒՅՇ ՊԱՊՅԱՆ, Հարցազրուցավար
Ներքին կյանք - 28 Մայիսի 2016,


«Դրանք տարածքներ չեն, հողեր չեն, դրանք մեր դիրքերն են, որոնք թողել ենք թշնամուն։ Տարածքն այն է, որտեղ կռիվ չի գնում, որտեղ խոտ են ցանում։ Իսկ դրանք մեր դիրքերն են, որոնք մնացել են թշնամու վերահսկողության տակ։ Իսկ դա մեծ կորուստ է»։ Անդրադառնալով 800 հեկտար կորցրած տարածքի մասին Սերժ Սարգսյանի հայտարարությանը՝ Lragir.am-ի հետ զրույցում ասել է Արցախի հերոս, գերենալ-մայոր Արկադի Տեր-Թադևոսյանը (Կոմանդոս)։

Այսօր Հայաստանում նշվում է Առաջին հանրապետության օրը։ Արկադի Տեր-Թադևոսյանի կարծիքով՝ մայիսի 28-ի տոնին լարվածություն չի կարող լինել սահմանին։

«Մենք միայն ուզում ենք բանակի կողքը կանգնենք, բանակին մի բանով օգտակար լինենք, իսկ թե ինչ են ուզում ուրիշները, Սամվել Բաբայանը, դա իրենց գործն է, ինչ ուզում են անեն։ Մեր քայլերի մասին ոչինչ չեմ կարող ասել։ Մենք ծրագիր ունենք, այդ ծրագրով աշխատում ենք և չենք ուզում ուրիշ ծրագրերի մեջ խառնվել։ Ով ուզում է մեր ծրագրին ծանոթանալ, կարող է գալ մեզ մոտ», հավելել է նա։

Հարցին՝ Դուք կարևոր նախաձեռնությամբ հանդես եկաք, հրավիրեցիք աշխարհի տարբեր ծայրերում ապրող հայազգի գեներալների, զինվորականների, ի՞նչ արդյունք ստացաք, Կոմանդոսն արձագանքել է. «Հանդիպել ենք, աշխատում ենք։ Դա շոու ծրագիր չէ, աշխատանքային ծրագիր է։ Վստահ եղեք, որ խումբը լավ աշխատում է։ Մենք համագործակցում ենք մեր պետության, պաշտպանության նախարարության հետ և արդյունքներ անպայման լինելու են։ Սա ինքնագործունեություն չէ»։

Արկադի Տեր-Թադևոսյանին վրդովեցրեց Սամվել Բաբայանի վերադարձի հետ կապված հարցը, թե ինչ կտա նրա վերադարձը Արցախի զինված ուժերին. «Վայ, վայ, վայ, ես չեմ հասկանում, ինչ է կատարվում բոլորի հետ։ Սամվել Բաբայանը եկել է, մեծ հերոսություն է արել, եկեք ծափ տանք։ Եկել է, լավ է արել, դա ինչ մի հարց է, ինչի համար է եկել, ում համար է եկել»։

- See more at: http://www.lragir.am/index/arm/0/cou....PM1EY9tw.dpuf

[Vrej1915]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

28.05.2016

Թանկ գնով ձեռք բերած հնարավորությունը չկարողացանք օգտագործել և բանակցային սեղանի բոլոր մասնակիցների քարտերը վառել

Edik Baghdasaryan

Ցանկացած նոր իրավիճակ նոր հնարավորություն է նաեւ։ Այդքան թանկ գնով ձեռք բերած հնարավորությունը չկարողացանք օգտագործել եւ բանակցային սեղանի բոլոր մասնակիցների քարտերը վառել։ Իսկ դա կարող էինք անել։ Այնքան ակնհայտ է արդեն, որ հարձակումից առաջ նրանք բոլորը դարձել էին Ալիեւի դաշնակիցներ։ Եւ դա եղել է միմիայն մեր մեղքով։ Այնպես որ, ուրիշ տեղ պետք չի փնտրել մեղավորներ, ամեն ինչ մեր ներսում է։ Անդաշնակից պատերազմեցինք ու հայ զինվորը հաղթեց բոլորին, նաեւ երկիրն այս վիճակին հասցնող իշխանություններին։

Նյութի աղբյուր՝ https://www.facebook.com/edik.baghda...53?pnref=story

[Eddo211]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Hard to tell ... Most likely it was their old position cause of the stone structure, looks like it was there for a while. See the attached map with arrows.
[ATTACH]3099[/ATTACH]

Regardless of its size .....it is bulge in our territory and they can start expanding it not forward but sideways until an better attack plan put in place.

This is an advantage and strategic position for Azeris......we must take that town of their and trap their soldiers flanking them from both sides.
General Eddo211 speaks

[Lori]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Guys has anyone heard of the PT72 U upgrade from the Russians they should be finished by now, here I'll give you a quote from Hyefighter

"I dont know what is going on, some news agency tell that we will not get polish tanks, but officily we already have contract with them, also officialy contract with russians, so could be we modernize with polaks and russians, just whait and we will see. Its hard to get new tanks,modernization of t72 is probably same as T90 but with lower price"

So did we get em or was this a sad rumor.

Debunked a while ago. The organization that does the upgrade denied they were even negotiating with Armenia. It is a Polish upgrade, not Russian btw. Russian upgrades are T72BA, B3, BM, etc.

Someone tried to add that info to the wiki a while ago and it was removed for being poorly sourced.

Regarding our armored forces - We are severely lacking in this area, and this is where the government has done next to nothing to improve. Its quite unfortunate. It is imperative that Armenia upgrades its armored forces. We have a limited amount of T72BA in service, with the rest being T72B and a minority being T72A. According to Janes' report on the 200 million dollar deal, the fire control systems for some T72As are being upgraded to T72B standard. However, this is hardly an improvement. Its like bringing 70s era equipment to 80s standard. The inaction regarding our armored forces is CRIMINAL.

BMP-2s as well, need to either be fully replaced or heavily modernized. The Azeris have more or less replaced their entire BMP-2 fleet with BMP-3s. The BMP-3 is the most heavily armed IFV in the world, and is capable of taking 30mm AP rounds to its frontal armor. It does not take a monkey to operate either, the layout is very similar to the BMP-2 however it is poorly designed when it comes to troop transport. (That is why the Azeris have retained some of their BMP-2s)

The BMP-2 is one of the most unreliable IFV platforms out there, and one of the most poorly designed. It has absolutely no consideration for logistics and crew safety. It is an extremely dangerous vehicle, but not for the enemy. For the crew.

I was browsing some videos, and I found a Finnish soldier's youtube channel. He is a BMP-2 crewman. Driver specifically. He had an interesting QnA with a person in the comments.

Viewer: Very excellent video! In your experience, was the cannon accurate? What are your impressions?




Primarkka: The shipunov 2a42 was a very inaccurate cannon by nowadays standards and the stabilizer was a fairly poor one full of bad design issues. However a well maintained cannon has a very high rate of fire and the ammunition is cheap, compared so say - a bushmaster. The largest issues with the cannon had to do with the platform. A bmp-2 is a really terrible, uncomfortable and a dangerous vehicle to operate.


Viewer: I see. I'm sure that riding around in it with full body armor is not the best experience, if you must repeat it every week. I have heard many private owners heap praise on the BMP. It is interesting to hear a contrasting opinion



Primarkka: it's very fun to drive around when you're just cruising around. I've driven a dirtbike on a track for a few years, and you could compare the "just cruising around" part to driving a bike.

The really bad part of operating a BMP-2 like vehicles (soviet design) is that the driver does not see practically anything when he's below the hatch. There are no real harnesses or safety equipment for the crew, if you crash the vehicle, pretty much the entire crew is going to have a lot harm coming their way. You have to drive very fast in very narrow areas with a horrible transmission and suspension.

It's very, very stressful when you compare it to, say, an IFV like the CV-90 or a modern APC. The commander is one bounce away from breaking his nose, the gunner has no idea when we're about to hit a ditch or a mound and the driver can't see close to the front because the optics (prisms) are too high, so he can't dodge hidden rocks.

The combat effectiveness is very bad compared to modern IFVs, even though the cannon fires a very large amount of shells in a short period of time. The power unit, the transmission and the tracks are all very cheaply made. The clutch takes very long to work, the transmission is very heavy to use and the tracks get detracked very easily. This all means death to the crew.

Viewer: I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean to say that cruising around is fun, yet not fun because of the cheaply made transmission? Also, I am not aware of any modern combat vehicle which includes seatbelts for the crew. While it might be dangerous if you crash, it would be more dangerous if you could not get out quickly enough, I should think. The fuel tanks are inside the vehicle, after all :/

Primarkka: Cruising around on a "run-ride" is very fun, as it is a no-stress environment. Driving the IFV in a training or a simulated combat environment is a very stress-inducing thing to do. The turret does not rotate if the driver has his hatch open, thus the driver must remain below the hatch at all times. The interior is very cramped and the visibility is very poor under the hatch.

Note that the army usually does not train in a good weather. Every single BMP-2 I've driven has leaked water in to the driver's compartment when it's raining. Add a fog and the fact that the prisms' heating is garbage (your view ports get fogged up, further reducing visibility), a rain (the view ports do not have a wiper) and any sort of mud (there is a lot of mud being thrown around driving a tank), the driver does not have a good time because he can't see. For the driver, the only thing the BMP-2 has going for it is the fact that it can really climb and accelerate due to a very good torque. It's possibly one of the hardest armoured vehicles to drive properly that is in service around the world.

It's not a pleasant vehicle to serve in. Every single one of them has issues with the transmission and the clutch. The clutch is a delayed-action one-of-a-kind hydraulically operated piece of xxxx. It's main advantage is that if you know your service vehicle by heart, you can do some very smooth accelerations. The downsides are that it takes usually up to three seconds to start moving, otherwise you'll break the transmission very quickly and that the clutch operation varies wildly between vehicles. It takes a modern MBT around 10 to 15 seconds to acquire a target and shoot it at the worst possible environment. You'll waste a lot of precious time to just to move away after firing a short burst at the target.

APCs usually have seatbelts and comfortable driving positions comparable to trucks. Most modern combat vehicles are designed for crew survivability, the BMP-2 isn't. It takes a crew around 20-35 seconds to evacuate the entire vehicle from the rear-doors during best possible circumstances because the vehicle is so cramped. You can disable an entire BMP-2 with a shot to the left-hand side frontal hull with a fairly small caliber gun, as it'll kill the driver, the gunner and a half of the infantry squad. BMP-2 is at thickest only 25mm RHA (it's highly sloped though).

The fuel is not pressurized in the main or the reserve fuel tanks, as the tank uses diesel it'll require multiple shots in the rear of the vehicle to have a chance of setting it on fire. You'll most likely hit the ammo which will instantly kill the entire crew. There's no escaping if you're under fire in a soviet IFV or an APC. The soviets did not care about crew survivability.

He is especially right about the driver. Poor man has to stand up half-way just to see out of the armored ports. Its quite ridiculous. There are videos of BMP-2s in Syria, where the stabilizers fail mid-mission. The IFV is a cheap piece of crap, that is more or less a coffin for our boys. It is criminal that the MoD has not even bothered to begin their replacement.

Video can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxbNYhpzLqs

Hard to tell ... Most likely it was their old position cause of the stone structure, looks like it was there for a while. See the attached map with arrows.
Attachment 3099

This is interesting, something I skipped over when lurking. These are positions they have taken? Across the ravine? What are our leaders even talking about? Those idiot Azeris have placed their troops ahead of a natural anchor point - the ravine. Their isolated. Destroy the crossing points, if there are any, using artillery and seize those positions. Two mechanized rifle squads would get the job done.

Eddo jan, I agree. We should seize that village, create a buffer so that we could slow the Azeris down next time before they reach the ravine, where our forces would be anchored. Bleed them white before they reach it, then sit back and pick them off. You don't give yourself enough credit, that is a good idea.

[Eddo211]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I guess we're not done here.

There will be no peace without the exchanging of lands. Its that simple. I suggest you read up on all the settlement plans, you will see that there are much worse options for Armenia. Only people here who are sick in the head are the ones who actually believe that Armenia has the resources and abilities to survive this siege-like status quo.

And what is this nonsense about airspace? Even with Artsakh and the surrounding territories, Armenia wouldn't be able to maintain a fleet of air superiority or multirole fighters. If airspace is what you are concerned about, then I suggest you begin reviewing your priorities.



I'd rather descend the mountain, towards peace, then to stay up there with you and freeze to death.

Peace in Artsakh will open the road to Western Armenia. Not war. The only way to achieve this is what Samvel suggested. Territorial concessions, on our terms

As for Armenian refugees mentioned, I believe all Armenians living in Russia should be repatriated to Armenia.

Or we could all just migrate to Kuban and make Armavir our new capital

No peace with Turks........no land to Turks. We take land from Turks to our East.
Everyone knows war is hell. Turks are ready to tough it out to take us out....as should we, to the power of 3.

btw, priority is air power........don't you think we have enough ground force attack assets? not even including Tanks.

[burjuin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

ՀԱՊԿ ՕԱՀՈւ «Կոբալտ 2016» համատեղ վարժանքները

[DieHard69]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Thank you so much Lori Jan you have given us so much helpful information, its good to have you in this forum but it is rather sad that our soldiers are using outdated vehicles in the battlefield its no wonder the mongols took out 11 of our tanks.

[Lori]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

No peace with Turks........no land to Turks. We take land from Turks to our East.
Everyone knows war is hell. Turks are ready to tough it out to take us out....as should we, to the power of 3.

btw, priority is air power........don't you think we have enough ground force attack assets? not even including Tanks.

I think our air defense network and forces have more or less negated the Azerbaijani air force, especially their MiG-29s. (Which are most susceptible to our air defense systems like the S300, Kub, Pechora). The actual gap between our air force and theirs is not very big either. Due to our small size, our air defense is also heavily concentrated Leaving them little room to maneuver and operate.

The separatists/Russian Army in Donbass have been able to entirely ground the Ukrainian Air Force in the East using Pantsir-S1 and Buk systems. The Ukrainian Air Force is much larger and formidable than Azerbaijan's, however poorly maintained. When the Ukies were flying around Donetsk in early summer 2014, they were getting shot down like with just MANPADs.

Armenia

MiG-29s: 0

SU-25: 11-13

Mi-24: 15-19

Mi-8/17: 20-25

Azerbaijan

MiG-29: 13

SU-25: 11

Mi-24: 17

Mi8/17: 50


As you can see, there isn't much of a difference. They have one squadron of MiG-29s, most I am sure would be shot down if they attempted to use them.

I know your a flyboy Eddo, and your knowledge is invaluable. Based off what I have read, you are very experienced and knowledgeable of aviation. However, it is not a priority that Armenia purchases any more aircraft other than, perhaps, attack helicopters. It would be nice if we were to modernize our SU-25s to an acceptable standard, many of them look like they are begging for re


Something I saw NO ONE address: Their drone fleet. How much of it did they lose in April?

They have 34 drones total. How many did they lose in April, and how much of that can we verify?

I suspect they may have lost the majority of their fleet, or at the very least half of it.



Yes, we have plenty of tanks but the quality is severely lacking. We could have the best crewmen in the world, modern tanks still provide clear advantages.

[DieHard69]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Hey guys can we do an overview on our military for the past 8 years and see what have we improved and what have we left unchecked.

So far our MOD has done an excellent job on air defence and artillery but that's about it, its rather disappointing really we could have modernised a lot of our military to better suit our environment.

[armnuke]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Debunked a while ago. The organization that does the upgrade denied they were even negotiating with Armenia. It is a Polish upgrade, not Russian btw. Russian upgrades are T72BA, B3, BM, etc.

Someone tried to add that info to the wiki a while ago and it was removed for being poorly sourced.

Regarding our armored forces - We are severely lacking in this area, and this is where the government has done next to nothing to improve. Its quite unfortunate. It is imperative that Armenia upgrades its armored forces. We have a limited amount of T72BA in service, with the rest being T72B and a minority being T72A. According to Janes' report on the 200 million dollar deal, the fire control systems for some T72As are being upgraded to T72B standard. However, this is hardly an improvement. Its like bringing 70s era equipment to 80s standard. The inaction regarding our armored forces is CRIMINAL.

BMP-2s as well, need to either be fully replaced or heavily modernized. The Azeris have more or less replaced their entire BMP-2 fleet with BMP-3s. The BMP-3 is the most heavily armed IFV in the world, and is capable of taking 30mm AP rounds to its frontal armor. It does not take a monkey to operate either, the layout is very similar to the BMP-2 however it is poorly designed when it comes to troop transport. (That is why the Azeris have retained some of their BMP-2s)

The BMP-2 is one of the most unreliable IFV platforms out there, and one of the most poorly designed. It has absolutely no consideration for logistics and crew safety. It is an extremely dangerous vehicle, but not for the enemy. For the crew.

I was browsing some videos, and I found a Finnish soldier's youtube channel. He is a BMP-2 crewman. Driver specifically. He had an interesting QnA with a person in the comments.



He is especially right about the driver. Poor man has to stand up half-way just to see out of the armored ports. Its quite ridiculous. There are videos of BMP-2s in Syria, where the stabilizers fail mid-mission. The IFV is a cheap piece of crap, that is more or less a coffin for our boys. It is criminal that the MoD has not even bothered to begin their replacement.

Video can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxbNYhpzLqs



This is interesting, something I skipped over when lurking. These are positions they have taken? Across the ravine? What are our leaders even talking about? Those idiot Azeris have placed their troops ahead of a natural anchor point - the ravine. Their isolated. Destroy the crossing points, if there are any, using artillery and seize those positions. Two mechanized rifle squads would get the job done.

Eddo jan, I agree. We should seize that village, create a buffer so that we could slow the Azeris down next time before they reach the ravine, where our forces would be anchored. Bleed them white before they reach it, then sit back and pick them off. You don't give yourself enough credit, that is a good idea.

You're wrong dude. We don't have T-72BA in service.
I think you're mixing up between T-72BA and T-72B/B1 obr. 1989 with Kontakt-5 ERA.
To differentiate between B and BA you need to check the wind sensor on the turret.
We have T-72A obr. 1981 and 1984, T-72AV, T-72B and B1 with Kontakt-1 ERA, and T-72B/B1 obr. 1989 with Kontakt-5 ERA.
The T-72B is still a very good tank nowadays. It was made specifically for the Soviet Army and never exported until the USSR broke down.

What do you expect to modernize and buy with a budget of $500 million?

Azeris have not changed their entire BMP-2 fleet with BMP-3s.
They haven't yet received their BMP-3s.
The BMP-2 is an excellent AFV.
Oh and Greece canceled its order of BMP-3s because the troop compartment in the back is a coffin.