Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[burjuin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Haykakan]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Turks hate them or love them , are Nationalists and they will jump off a bridge if there Imam orders it .
Armenians are only nationalists in the Diaspora and that is because if they were to come to Armenia , that nationalism will die . Some of these Armenians in Armenia are honestly a disgrace and need to go deep river with solid concrete posts into Sevan , Garen Demirjian style. We need to teach the new generation that our enemy is these Turks and Azeris and they want to kill us , so the survival of our nation depends on them . Its as simple as that, as its the truth .

Herika esh esh khosas.

[burjuin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I trust my EO-520 red dot with my life and that baby csn stand lots of abuse and accurate 2MOA at 300 yrds.

Some scopes even after zeroing once removed and reinstalled on the AK rail you have to Kentucky windage it. I normally never turn dials for elevation or windage, just hold for distance and guess on wind.....up to 600yrds.

Unless you have those $5000 scopes, I wouldn't put too much accuracy expectations on the sight.

Nothi g like iron sights once you get good at it.......even up to 400yrds. Any further, yes, you need to put a $5000 scope on a $800 rifle.[/QUOTE]



Eddo Jan, actually Eotech brand is the leader and one of the best in world of red dots. I have one on my AR 15. It has a radioactive tritium dot that glows in dark and on day time it has solar charger. So it never needs battery.
If I was to choose, I'd rather choose red dot scope instead of low grade scope, because I'd rather have the quick acquisition and quick aiming of red dot(for what they are intended) than bad accuracy of bad scope (which can get me killed sooner than I can take out my enemy).
From what I can tell from pictures and clips of snipers in action, neither we or Azeris or even Russians use top grade scopes for snipers because you see them operating alone mostly.
They never adjust scopes for distance or windage. They just have single zeroing on 100 or 200 meters and for distances use their experience in holding crosshair over target. That is a guesswork, however good sniper is. That is why you don't see them operating any further than 500 meters. Those heavy caliber rifles are meant to only hit transports over 500 meter distances. I have never heard or read anywhere that any Russian or any CSTO country sniper making a kill behind 1000 meters.
That is why we loose our guys and no matter what we do we will keep loosing soldiers on frontline because we are facing Turkish snipers who are NATO trained and use NATO sniper grade equipment.
You cannot see an enemy sniper if he is operating behind 2000 meter distance(only your sniper can see him, but needs matching equipment to duel successfully and not to become a kill himself). You keep your head down from enemy trench sight. But the killer is not in that trench. He or she is sitting far away in a chosen spot from which freely monitors large area of your trenchline for any careless or unprepared target and take it out sucessfully. Or he has so accurate equipment that can send a bullet thru that 10-20 sentimeter opening.
We need this equipment in order to balance and stop Azeri sniping.
A modern sniper is a team of 2. A spotter and a shooter. They depend on each other. The spotter will measure the distance to target and quickly calculate the elevation clicks necessary in order to compensate for bullet drop. He will gage diffrent wind strengths and angle to windage values (he is trained so to be excellent in this), give the click values to shooter who adjusts crosshair, aims right on center to be hit and sends the bullet.
When somebody aims by holding crosshair up and to side to target for compensation, it is very hard to readjust for a quick second shot, because the click value on diffrent distances is diffrent.
I would say it's impossible. The first and all subsequent shots are all guessworks.
You see, if you hit let's say 20 santimeters below target, then on 100 meters you either hold 20CM high or change crosshair to up 2 clicks. But on 200 meters you have to hold 45cm up or click "up" 5 (let's say). For 600 meters the hold over is so much for eyeballing that even though you keep target in scope sight but with crosshair you cannot accurately judge if that distance between target point and crosshair is really 70, 90 or 120 cm? If you misjudge 20cm, you will miss by multiple that distance. This means life and death sometimes.
While with click adjustment the hold over is really a definite number of clicks, let's say 12. Any distance in between is a definite number of clicks and a definite distance with a reference. Let's say the lazer range finder measures 536 meters, the calculation will come let's say 10-7/8 clicks, you click up 11, and by knowing that 1/8 click is roughly 4-5 centimeters between 500-550 meters, you will put the crosshair on the tip of the nose and hit right between the eyes.
Modern quality scopes have +,- 70 to 120 click adjustments. That's enormous distance adjustment. Plus most have 4-6 small lines below crosshair that start close distance between them that increase with each lower one. The first one is a 1 MOA (minute of an angle). That adds as let's say 20 clicks in 500 meters. Second or 3rd lines add more.
So knowing this and all the calculations, you can hold let's say the second or third lines below crosshair on target on 2000 meters and adding a fiew clicks, you can aim at part of body like neck, forehead or machine part or bunker s-lut that has definite size that is added to calculation for fractional calculated values and hit exactly where you want.
All you need is a strong and clear magnification like 60mm or up(80,100) lenses and very strong and accurate crosshair turret system. All the calculations and ballistic corrections are given to you by spotter in seconds.
I have a nightforce scope. One of those was hit in Iraq by an AK bullet. It shot trough the tube, making a thru hole. Abviousely the gas escaped. But the scope is made so strong that it did not loose accuracy al all. The sniper went ahead and completed that fiew days mission with several kills.

[Haykakan]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I trust my EO-520 red dot with my life and that baby csn stand lots of abuse and accurate 2MOA at 300 yrds.

Some scopes even after zeroing once removed and reinstalled on the AK rail you have to Kentucky windage it. I normally never turn dials for elevation or windage, just hold for distance and guess on wind.....up to 600yrds.

Unless you have those $5000 scopes, I wouldn't put too much accuracy expectations on the sight.

Nothi g like iron sights once you get good at it.......even up to 400yrds. Any further, yes, you need to put a $5000 scope on a $800 rifle.

Eddo Jan, actually Eotech brand is the leader and one of the best in world of red dots. I have one on my AR 15. It has a radioactive tritium dot that glows in dark and on day time it has solar charger. So it never needs battery.
If I was to choose, I'd rather choose red dot scope instead of low grade scope, because I'd rather have the quick acquisition and quick aiming of red dot(for what they are intended) than bad accuracy of bad scope (which can get me killed sooner than I can take out my enemy).
From what I can tell from pictures and clips of snipers in action, neither we or Azeris or even Russians use top grade scopes for snipers because you see them operating alone mostly.
They never adjust scopes for distance or windage. They just have single zeroing on 100 or 200 meters and for distances use their experience in holding crosshair over target. That is a guesswork, however good sniper is. That is why you don't see them operating any further than 500 meters. Those heavy caliber rifles are meant to only hit transports over 500 meter distances. I have never heard or read anywhere that any Russian or any CSTO country sniper making a kill behind 1000 meters.
That is why we loose our guys and no matter what we do we will keep loosing soldiers on frontline because we are facing Turkish snipers who are NATO trained and use NATO sniper grade equipment.
You cannot see an enemy sniper if he is operating behind 2000 meter distance(only your sniper can see him, but needs matching equipment to duel successfully and not to become a kill himself). You keep your head down from enemy trench sight. But the killer is not in that trench. He or she is sitting far away in a chosen spot from which freely monitors large area of your trenchline for any careless or unprepared target and take it out sucessfully. Or he has so accurate equipment that can send a bullet thru that 10-20 sentimeter opening.
We need this equipment in order to balance and stop Azeri sniping.
A modern sniper is a team of 2. A spotter and a shooter. They depend on each other. The spotter will measure the distance to target and quickly calculate the elevation clicks necessary in order to compensate for bullet drop. He will gage diffrent wind strengths and angle to windage values (he is trained so to be excellent in this), give the click values to shooter who adjusts crosshair, aims right on center to be hit and sends the bullet.
When somebody aims by holding crosshair up and to side to target for compensation, it is very hard to readjust for a quick second shot, because the click value on diffrent distances is diffrent.
I would say it's impossible. The first and all subsequent shots are all guessworks.
You see, if you hit let's say 20 santimeters below target, then on 100 meters you either hold 20CM high or change crosshair to up 2 clicks. But on 200 meters you have to hold 45cm up or click "up" 5 (let's say). For 600 meters the hold over is so much for eyeballing that even though you keep target in scope sight but with crosshair you cannot accurately judge if that distance between target point and crosshair is really 70, 90 or 120 cm? If you misjudge 20cm, you will miss by multiple that distance. This means life and death sometimes.
While with click adjustment the hold over is really a definite number of clicks, let's say 12. Any distance in between is a definite number of clicks and a definite distance with a reference. Let's say the lazer range finder measures 536 meters, the calculation will come let's say 10-7/8 clicks, you click up 11, and by knowing that 1/8 click is roughly 4-5 centimeters between 500-550 meters, you will put the crosshair on the tip of the nose and hit right between the eyes.
Modern quality scopes have +,- 70 to 120 click adjustments. That's enormous distance adjustment. Plus most have 4-6 small lines below crosshair that start close distance between them that increase with each lower one. The first one is a 1 MOA (minute of an angle). That adds as let's say 20 clicks in 500 meters. Second or 3rd lines add more.
So knowing this and all the calculations, you can hold let's say the second or third lines below crosshair on target on 2000 meters and adding a fiew clicks, you can aim at part of body like neck, forehead or machine part or bunker s-lut that has definite size that is added to calculation for fractional calculated values and hit exactly where you want.
All you need is a strong and clear magnification like 60mm or up(80,100) lenses and very strong and accurate crosshair turret system. All the calculations and ballistic corrections are given to you by spotter in seconds.
I have a nightforce scope. One of those was hit in Iraq by an AK bullet. It shot trough the tube, making a thru hole. Abviousely the gas escaped. But the scope is made so strong that it did not loose accuracy al all. The sniper went ahead and completed that fiew days mission with several kills.[/QUOTE]

So why not make these long range scopes here in Armenia? We need to deal with the sniping as it is really the only things that azeris are effective with (assuming those snipers are not mercenaries).

[Spetsnaz]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Interesting stuff we have here! check the toys!

Ապրիլյան պատերազմին թշնամու կապը խլացրել են Հայաստանում հավաքված ՌԷՊ կայաններ

http://razm.info/90568

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

So why not make these long range scopes here in Armenia? We need to deal with the sniping as it is really the only things that azeris are effective with (assuming those snipers are not mercenaries).[/QUOTE]



Well, I allmost twisted my fingers typing a lengthy post just 2 pages back trying to tell that instead of buying cheaper Chinese made Italians brand scopes, our guys can produce quality NATO grade scopes 5-7 times cheaper.
Once we have those in numbers, we can establish world class sniper training program of our own.

P.S. Remember 6-8 years back Turks started supplying Azeris with their sniper rifles which I am sure were equipped with NATO grade scopes. They then helped Azeris in establishing a sniper school by western standards.
We have fallen way behind. We either have to purchase those expencive rifles with high end scopes or manufacture our own scopes and buy and refitt good rifles. Both of them together will cost $10000 to $20000 to buy from outside.
Even though we show some from time to time, I think the numbers are not enough. And the absence of sniper school is impermissible.
You cannot put together sniping in under reconnaissance school. Sniper has to be separate school/facility. It has to have separate logistics facilities, like repair and calibration, bullet making and reloading, testing facilities that cannot be mixed with general arms in order not to mix and lower it's grade, along with classrooms and training facilities.
Special force soldier has to go thru both in separate order and be involved lifetime in both.

[Azad]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Interesting stuff we have here! check the toys!

Nice! Good job

[Haykakan]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

So why not make these long range scopes here in Armenia? We need to deal with the sniping as it is really the only things that azeris are effective with (assuming those snipers are not mercenaries).

Well, I allmost twisted my fingers typing a lengthy post just 2 pages back trying to tell that instead of buying cheaper Chinese made Italians brand scopes, our guys can produce quality NATO grade scopes 5-7 times cheaper.
Once we have those in numbers, we can establish world class sniper training program of our own.

P.S. Remember 6-8 years back Turks started supplying Azeris with their sniper rifles which I am sure were equipped with NATO grade scopes. They then helped Azeris in establishing a sniper school by western standards.
We have fallen way behind. We either have to purchase those expencive rifles with high end scopes or manufacture our own scopes and buy and refitt good rifles. Both of them together will cost $10000 to $20000 to buy from outside.
Even though we show some from time to time, I think the numbers are not enough. And the absence of sniper school is impermissible.
You cannot put together sniping in under reconnaissance school. Sniper has to be separate school/facility. It has to have separate logistics facilities, like repair and calibration, bullet making and reloading, testing facilities that cannot be mixed with general arms in order not to mix and lower it's grade, along with classrooms and training facilities.
Special force soldier has to go thru both in separate order and be involved lifetime in both.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like the scope is a small part of the expense in that equation. Which may explain why we do not have such snipers. I think we need to use whatever we do have in retaliation as doing nothing is just not acceptable.

[Ak105]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Herika esh esh khosas.

Hes actually correct, sadly. Nationalism mostly comes from the diaspora. Majority of Armenians in Armenia have negative feelings toward the country. Im from Gyumri and everyone there basically hated the country, wanted to leave, or left.