Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[londontsi]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

"Our people have had the honor to be among those who founded the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Despite the innumerable errors, both large and small, it is an undeniable fact that only as a part of the USSR have our people been able to survive Turkish invasion, live within secure borders, and progress economically and culturally. In spite of the current criticisms expressed from every quarter, it is a fact that the inhabitants of the Armenian
Soviet Socialist Republic today enjoy a higher standard of living and more security than have Armenians at any other time in their three thousand year history. And all of this has taken place in the face of enormous challenges, including foreign invasion, economic isolation, civil war and an unimaginably costly World War"

-Monte Melkonian

Out of a population of 100,000 who are mostly sickly and old, best way to turn it around into a health and vigorous population
is to kill off the old and sickly.
Then you will have a young and dynamic town.
This idea may sound bizarre.
However this approach was adopted by Hitler to make the nation healthy and productive.

Coming to your statement about the SU.
If you remove the years 1920 until 1952, Lenin plus until Stalin’s death things start looking good.
Then remove some of the misbehaviour of Khrushchev's things get better, same with Brezniev etc.

You need to look at village life to see how the nation was ignored and all efforts were directed towards showpieces.
You need to have a look at the list of our intellectuals who were executed as traitors or sent to the gulags.
You need to have a look at the SU culture of doctoring facts, statistics, corruption.

Look at the hangover from SU of our corrupt politians.

These are not because we are independant but what the SU culture was but because the freedom expression was lacking it never got highlighted.


PS. I have greatest respect and admiration for Monte, however he was not everything.
He was primarily a soldier while in Hayasdan and surrounded by very patriotic fighters.
An enviornment which easily create euphoria and dynamism with anybody.

.

[armnuke]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

"Our people have had the honor to be among those who founded the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Despite the innumerable errors, both large and small, it is an undeniable fact that only as a part of the USSR have our people been able to survive Turkish invasion, live within secure borders, and progress economically and culturally. In spite of the current criticisms expressed from every quarter, it is a fact that the inhabitants of the Armenian
Soviet Socialist Republic today enjoy a higher standard of living and more security than have Armenians at any other time in their three thousand year history. And all of this has taken place in the face of enormous challenges, including foreign invasion, economic isolation, civil war and an unimaginably costly World War"

-Monte Melkonian

With all due respect to our hero, standing in line for coffee and sugar is not higher standard of living, it's higher standard of slavery.

[Federate]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

The Russians are not there to keep azeris at bay. They are there to keep their bigger cousins at bay.

I don't know how many times this has to be repeated before Armenians get it through their heads. It's great how nobody ever really worries about a Turkish threat of invasion on Armenia... I wonder why. I think they're getting used to taking this fact for granted. We are spoiled. Maybe we need to be reminded what is the distance between the Turkish border and Yerevan and how many of its neighbors Turkey is currently invading and ask the Greeks why they spend so much on their military even in their lousy economic state.

[armnuke]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

We have a man down in north eastern NKR.

http://razm.info/95011

[Etchmiadzin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I don't know how many times this has to be repeated before Armenians get it through their heads. It's great how nobody ever really worries about a Turkish threat of invasion on Armenia... I wonder why. I think they're getting used to taking this fact for granted. We are spoiled. Maybe we need to be reminded what is the distance between the Turkish border and Yerevan and how many of its neighbors Turkey is currently invading and ask the Greeks why they spend so much on their military even in their lousy economic state.

Exactly, and nobody here want Armenia to be a part of Russia but you are delusional if you think the 1918 republic would have survived, the turks offensive were halted at Sartarabad not stopped or crushed. People were dying of starvation and disease everyday. If Russia wouldnt have taken the Caucasus Iran or Turkey would have we got the "best" out of 3 xxxxty options. Azerbaijan and Georgia can brag about how Independent they are, but how can you be independent if you are not able to control your De-Jure territory.

You guys can grow a fedayi moustache and raid a police station or maybe the presidential palace and get rid off Serj today, but tomorrow Armenia will still be Armenia not Belgium or Israel and it will still be located in the south caucasus not scandinavia or south america.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

You are slipping lately. The Russians are not there to keep azeris at bay. They are there to keep their bigger cousins at bay.

Yes,
That is why it is in the frame with Artsakh conflict. If we go to war with Azeris, we need Russians to stop Turks joining the fight.
If there was no war with Azerbaijan, we could try to defend Turkish border all by ourselfs.

[Haykakan]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Yes,
That is why it is in the frame with Artsakh conflict. If we go to war with Azeris, we need Russians to stop Turks joining the fight.
If there was no war with Azerbaijan, we could try to defend Turkish border all by ourselfs.

"Try to defend" When you say it like that you very well know that we will fail before it even gets started. Why inflate the balloon when you know it will blow? Did you see how Georgia "tried to defend" against what was back then a lousy Russian army? The difference is the turk would not stop by just taking a part of Armenia it would achieve its panturkish wetdream. We need to stay glued to reality as daydreaming will bring us a quick ending.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

"Our people have had the honor to be among those who founded the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Despite the innumerable errors, both large and small, it is an undeniable fact that only as a part of the USSR have our people been able to survive Turkish invasion, live within secure borders, and progress economically and culturally. In spite of the current criticisms expressed from every quarter, it is a fact that the inhabitants of the Armenian
Soviet Socialist Republic today enjoy a higher standard of living and more security than have Armenians at any other time in their three thousand year history. And all of this has taken place in the face of enormous challenges, including foreign invasion, economic isolation, civil war and an unimaginably costly World War"

-Monte Melkonian

All the sovietization or communism could be done as allies with Russia but as an independent state.
Not Armenian republic only by name.
Fact is, soviet Russia was as imperialist in absorbing countries and creating empire, as czar or ottomans.
Also we have to pay attention to demolition and suppression of our national values by Moscow.
We had good economic and national progress after 1945, right, but let's put it against hundreds of thousands that were killed, starved and sent to die in far corners of Soviet Union by communists.
Hell of a price to pay right?
My criticism is at the master/servant relation that Moscow maintained for 70 years with member republics, while by constitution they were supposed to be equal.
We could still be communists and allies in close order, like any Warsaw Pact member vs USSR. But actions of Armenian communists to fight and destroy our first republic coupled with population's lack of commitment to idea of independent Armenia and support to government, led to absorption by Russian SSR.
This history should teach us about importance of our commitment to independence. Artsakh war included.
While in WWI media and information flow was non existent basically, now we have many tools and lot of room to work our goals.
International environment for 1st republic versus today's is incomparable. Nobody has free hand to force their will on us like before.
This means our ideas, morale and resolve become almost 100% guarantors of our future. Not some faraway capital.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Exactly, and nobody here want Armenia to be a part of Russia but you are delusional if you think the 1918 republic would have survived, the turks offensive were halted at Sartarabad not stopped or crushed. People were dying of starvation and disease everyday. If Russia wouldnt have taken the Caucasus Iran or Turkey would have we got the "best" out of 3 xxxxty options. Azerbaijan and Georgia can brag about how Independent they are, but how can you be independent if you are not able to control your De-Jure territory.

You guys can grow a fedayi moustache and raid a police station or maybe the presidential palace and get rid off Serj today, but tomorrow Armenia will still be Armenia not Belgium or Israel and it will still be located in the south caucasus not scandinavia or south america.

Your last sentences mess up your argument. It is wrong to tie Serj to Armenia/ Russia relations. While he is responsible for state of our country and must be held accountable (actually stopped and removed), our relations with Russia is not the privilege or result of any political figure but only of our society overall.
This has to be made clear so even Moscow understands and does not try to keep somebody like Serj in power because Moscow still does not know how to build relationship with this kind of leaders nothing but as master/servant.

[HyeSocialist]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Your last sentences mess up your argument. It is wrong to tie Serj to Armenia/ Russia relations. While he is responsible for state of our country and must be held accountable (actually stopped and removed), our relations with Russia is not the privilege or result of any political figure but only of our society overall.
This has to be made clear so even Moscow understands and does not try to keep somebody like Serj in power because Moscow still does not know how to build relationship with this kind of leaders nothing but as master/servant.

I agree with this entirely. We should make it very clear to Russia that just because we do things like sign FTA with the EU we are not turning our backs to Russia. We are pro Russia in terms of foreign policy and fall under their bubble. But Russian paranoia causes parliament members in Russia to accuse NGOs in Armenia of plotting "Western propaganda" and other nonsensical ideas.

Armenians stood up against a corrupt utility company and the Russian's were trying their best to equate it to the Maidan in the Ukraine even though almost all Armenians said it was an anti corruption thing. Russia had this massive knee jerk reaction because the people in charge of that utility were corrupt, and they were gouging the Armenian people, and linking it to some kind of massive Western conspiracy was connecting dots that don't exist.

The biggest problem Russia causes for Armenia is the empowering of a corruption mindset. Moscow loves corrupt governments. It tries its best to remove any concept of anti-corruption/democracy in Armenia, because this will inevitably weaken the thugs in power. Moscow likes thugs.