Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

You had legit concerns, I gave you a legit solution ay axper

That is not how you give legit solution. You know it.
Nobody except army can publicise any information about condition of weaponry. Nobody can go and prove quality of any bullet exept expert lab that is tasked with it.
There is only two ways. One is criticism and concerns coming from outside army(government), the other is the government itself.
There has been tons of criticism and evidence of bad or old weaponry from outside of army. But there has not been sufficient proofs of otherwise from government. Not for the aprill war or before statuses. Only after aprill war there has been reports of improvements by army. But this events of exploding guns gives me right to question.
Anybody that thinks that I am harming my country's defences by criticizing is wrong.
Open criticism and demands of accountability are the only factors that differentiate our army from azery army. Only by accountability and taking on criticism can our army be more powerful than azery army which has much more weaponry.
Most important that We can learn from aprill war is to keep pressing for accountability and stop in any corruption. Not to sleep until next war shows inefficiencies on account of our kid's lives.
My concerns are very real and reasonable.

[burjuin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenian Air Force

[armnuke]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Hakop, we don't have rifles that are that old to blow up when being fired. You don't need to be a rifle guru to check the photos and videos and see them yourself. Quit mixing technical stuff with your political beliefs.
I have 10+ years of experience with guns and ammo, I fill my own ammo and experiment with different types of gunpowders.
First of all when a gun blows up it won't kill the person most of the time.
Second, old ammo does not blow up. It gives you bad pattern, poor distance, and most of the time it jams, meaning that you have to throw out the empty shell manually out of your rifle because it won't go out on its own.
What could blow up a gun and kill someone could be the following:
- Sabotage
- Clogged barrel, specially when there's mud. If you dip the rifle's barrel without being careful, the pressure will blow the gun up, but only in rare cases someone dies.
- Double /triple gunpowder charge. This happens when they're filling cartriges and a malfuntioning machine drops 2-3 charges of gunpowder. Also, this rarely kills the shooter.
Heres a video for illustration

[DieHard69]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I agree with the statement regarding our mod to modernise our police force with new equipment yet our guys are barely armed with anything with most of our equipment barely reaching the 90s and most of them stuck in the 70s and 80s seriously we got brand new toys for our police last year with LAV's and APC's for god sake, and yet our guys are using a T-72 AV with outdated weapons and poorly equipped with basic weaponry, seriously where the hell does our 500 million dollar military budget go to?!

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Hakop, we don't have rifles that are that old to blow up when being fired. You don't need to be a rifle guru to check the photos and videos and see them yourself. Quit mixing technical stuff with your political beliefs.
I have 10+ years of experience with guns and ammo, I fill my own ammo and experiment with different types of gunpowders.
First of all when a gun blows up it won't kill the person most of the time.
Second, old ammo does not blow up. It gives you bad pattern, poor distance, and most of the time it jams, meaning that you have to throw out the empty shell manually out of your rifle because it won't go out on its own.
What could blow up a gun and kill someone could be the following:
- Sabotage
- Clogged barrel, specially when there's mud. If you dip the rifle's barrel without being careful, the pressure will blow the gun up, but only in rare cases someone dies.
- Double /triple gunpowder charge. This happens when they're filling cartriges and a malfuntioning machine drops 2-3 charges of gunpowder. Also, this rarely kills the shooter.
Heres a video for illustration

Glad that you anderstand from guns and ammo. I also have vast experience, over 35 years. I am also a hobby gunsmith as I am tooling engineer, making gun parts and loading equipment.
As I said, old ammo can do a what is called "cook off" where primer ignites prematurely as bullet is entering a hot barrel that has already fired several shots. Depending how premature, if it ignites before bolt has closed fully, it can throw the bolt back with the force of a projectile into shooter's head. I have seen data and pictures of such a case from an incident in Australia. Usually for a cookoff to happen to regular bullets, you have to shoot something like a few magazines without stop to cool off the barrel.
This premature ignition can happen also from substandard bullets when primer cup is not uniformally set around .10 MM below case surface and when bolt is slamming cartridge into chamber force is on primer and acts as a pin strike would.
Also there have been few instances where primer cup material is thinned down too much at the corner radius as a result of bad stamping. This kind of weakness can make separation of primer cup bottom section (which is facing the bolt) and from pneumatic force pressure when bolt closes can collapse and create ignition.
I can name many more reasons of just primer going off prematurely on substandard ammunition and causing premature cookoff which is the most dangerous.
I have had a couple of "cookoff"s, the regular ones where bolt was closed and no problem.
This premature ignitions are most dangerous in automatic weapons because they can happen before bolt closes and locks up.
The video you posted is not of premature ignition. It is a pressure blow up of closed bolt action. The piston spring flies back with cover blowing up but luckily the guy does not get hurt.
It can be very deadly.
Another reason of blow up prematurely is the case problems. I have had a cartridge of Persian manufacture 8mm Mauser firing before I pulled the trigger. Upon close examination I found many bullets with micro cracks on brass cases. Somehow powder inside got a spark to ignite.
As you can see there are many ways a low quality bullet can cause damage.
There can be problems with old guns too.
I have guns from early 1800's till this day. There are several ways an old gun can be dangerous.
Number one is decaying thru oxidation as time goes by. Sometimes this oxidation can be seen as rust, but sometimes it does not have rust color because of steel rubbing and handling/firing. But nonetheless bolt lug faces and bolt locking lugs in chamber start loosing material and develop excessive head spacing clearance.
Now you know, if there is too much headspace, cartridge starts developing excessive pressures before bullet jumps into rifling. Combine that with the fact that steel on old and much used bolts becomes harder and brittle when it is made low quality, and you can have a sudden breakdown of bolt lugs and it fly back.
Is this enough information?
Now, I have no political affiliation. My criticism of government is not political, but comes from government's behavior.
Some older members here can remember how sometimes I have defended Serj's government very vigorously.
If they do good, they deserve appraisal. But I can't stay quiet if there are problems in government behavior.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Ըստ Քննչական կոմիտեի տարածած հաղորդագրության` 2017թ. փետրվարի 23-ին՝ ժամը 00:45-ի սահմաններում, N զորամասի պահպանության շրջանի մարտական դիրքում, հակառակորդի կրակը ճնշելու նպատակով գնդացրով պատասխան կրակ վարելու ժամանակ, ըստ նախնական տվյալների, փամփուշտը փողում պայթելու պատճառով, մահացու բեկորային վիրավորում է ստացել պայմանագրային զինծառայող Գոռ Ֆրունզիկի Խուդինյանը:

Definitely quality issue.
To remedy, I think voices calling for establishing domestic manufacture of ammunition to supply all our army needs is the good idea.
Quality controll can be managed much better when manufacturer is local and responds directly to user's requairements.
Product has not been passed thru many hands and there is nothing to do to affect manufacturer.
This incident can be a gun or bullet issue. It can happen even with new production if manufactured cheap and low quality.
Government's job is to take action ASAP, and publicise.

[ASALA2116]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I'd like to add to post above.
There has been at least two, I think, self inflicted gunshot wounds declared by our MOD this year, and several last year. It does not say "suicide".
Question: what is self inflicted gunshot wound, if not as a suicide?
Generally it is pretty hard for trained person, like the soldier, to inflict an accidental gunshot wound, which will be pointing gun at yourself and firing, unless a suicide event.
So every time there was an incident after which a self inflicted gunshot was declared, I thought that it could be a coverup term for enemy shot.
But now I am starting to suspect that behind that declaration stand major mechanical malfunctions that end up killing our soldiers and are not clarified by government.
Next question is how big is this problem? How many of our soldiers died in April war because of this?
How probable and founded are my suspicions?
For an apparatus that is so cortupt that could bring buffalo meat from India and feed it's soldiers as veal, or taking army rations and selling it in Poland isn't it possible to bring some low or lowest quality written off bullets and rifles from third world countries and pass it as Bought from Russia?
looking at the level of corruption and paybacks in our government isn't it possible?
I believe very likely.
How we will know? Who will prove or not?

You completely lost me here. We started with the Police to self inflicting gunshots to your old same rhetoric that the Government is corrupt. We already know that but to be honest find me a smart man who will lead Armenia into the right direction . Sometimes we need to experience the sh it first to get to what we want. These Oligarchs will not rule forever. Things just take time. But I don't think you understand that. You are exactly like the Syrians who opposed Assad. Prefer a destroyed country then a corrupt system. Don't think like a Khiar Hakob. Destroy the system that destroys people. You have not given one example of how Armenia can better itself.

[burjuin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenian Army

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

You completely lost me here. We started with the Police to self inflicting gunshots to your old same rhetoric that the Government is corrupt. We already know that but to be honest find me a smart man who will lead Armenia into the right direction . Sometimes we need to experience the sh it first to get to what we want. These Oligarchs will not rule forever. Things just take time. But I don't think you understand that. You are exactly like the Syrians who opposed Assad. Prefer a destroyed country then a corrupt system. Don't think like a Khiar Hakob. Destroy the system that destroys people. You have not given one example of how Armenia can better itself.

Read all my posts above many more times and maybe you can get it.

[armnuke]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Read all my posts above many more times

We have a life outside this forum.