Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Anoush]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I am of course for Naxichevan to be claimed by for Armenia and I was one who wondered why we didn't go after Naxichevan as well at the same time we went to claim back Artsax; especially after the barbaric azeri soldiers' destructiveness of demolishing our 2,500 Xachkars and with it our cultural belongings through miedieval times. Jirair Sefilian has some good points; but those azeri baboons being majority in Naxichevan scares me; because we know that their population is backward, barbaric, violent and hateful towards us. If the azeri population will be majority in any part of Naxichevan, I don't think that most Armenians would move there. They will not feel safe within them. We only know it from Karapagh's history. Let's say even when it becomes Armenia proper. Personally I wouldn't want to live amongst the majority of azeri population, much less bring up family and children among them. I'll be afraid to for myself and for my family. Unless more and more population from Armenia starts going to Naxichevan and of course the Armenian army and police will be well controlling the area day and night.

[SoyElTurco]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I think Armenian "natural civility" is being overblown.

The brutality practiced by the military of the Azerbaijan is inherited from the mores of the Soviet military. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, all former Soviet states were and some still continue to be riddled with this problem - which in due time will be corrected.

Several reasons as to why reforms have not been undertaken throughout some militaries of former Soviet states are issues relating to corruption, beauracracy and simply economics. The Russian Federation still has this tradition of brutality that continues to this day and still awaits to be corrected. Several former Soviet bloc countries have this problem completely remedied, such as Poland, Georgia and Ukraine, who are western oriented and pay attention to the human rights standards of the west.

In the case of the caucus states. The caucus states really started entering the world at the beginning of this century and not immediately after their independence. These nations, as all other former soviet bloc nations, were plagued with the same disarray of corruption, poor economies, fledgling social concern organizations and nascent journalism. There were too many problems for everyone to correct at the same time. The caucus states were virtually isolated up until this century, when they became active players in the world scene, they began to open up and interact. Azerbaijan was and still is plagued with these problems because of the slow pace of reform in its corrupt beauracracy (just like Russia), coupled with the new flow of oil wealth, there was and still is very little incentive to reform because the oil weath has masked these structural problems and the inertia (bad behavior) of the beauracracy has been "rewarded" prolonging the due reforms that naturally come.

I do not know how soldiers are treated in Armenia, but let me venture a guess. I am going to assume that these vestiges of brutality have been corrected and virtually eliminated in Armenian Armed Forces. In the case of Armenia, it continues to be isolated as a result of the hostile status quo from its neighbors. Paradoxically, it was due to this isolation and hostility that prompted Armenia to correct these ills in its military; an external threat made the Armenians more cohesive, efficient and ordered in between them. Realizing it is an isolated nation surrounded by hostility, Armenia could not afford to continue the cannibalizing practices of the Soviet Military that would demoralize its servicemen and impair its ability to fight. The threat of extinction naturally facilitated the impetus for quick and efficient reform.

From what I have gathered from this forum, the budget of the Armenian military is spent very efficiently - something even the western militaries do not do.

Utlimately, people are people - Armenia was subject to the same crap all other former Soviet nations were subject to - ask yourselves why it turned out different for you guys, if indeed your circumstances are much better.

Cooperation and civility enhances survival. Armenia happens to be doing exactly that.

Of course, this my theory.

Oh, btw, please try to take Nakhchivan.

[Federate]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Human rights activist and Nobel peace prize winner Andrei Sakharov put it best: "For Azerbaijan the issue of Karabakh is a matter of ambition, for the Armenians of Karabakh, it is a matter of life or death."

The Armenian army continues to suffer from hazing as well but it's not to the level of what we are seeing in a certain neighbour of ours. For diasporan volunteers who serve time in the army, hazing is almost non-existent. The peak of the mistreatment was during the most corrupt times in Armenia - in the mid-nineties. Now, it is slowly going away as we become more professional and implement massive reforms. But conscription remains unpopular among a portion of Armenians in Armenia as many see it as a way of delaying their studies.

And get ready for a 9 km extension of your border with us, Turkey's pan-Turkic dream will get the final nail of its coffin once we do.

[Anoush]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Human rights activist and Nobel peace prize winner Andrei Sakharov put it best: "For Azerbaijan the issue of Karabakh is a matter of ambition, for the Armenians of Karabakh, it is a matter of life or death."

And get ready for a 9 km extension of your border with us, Turkey's pan-Turkic dream will get the final nail of its coffin once we do.

I would love to congratulate Mr. Andrei Sakharov for his very good and absolutely thruthful observation. Very good man.

[skhara]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

The brutality practiced by the military of the Azerbaijan is inherited from the mores of the Soviet military.

I disagree with you. Azeris had practically no experience with Soviet military. They were typically discriminated against, and reduced to cooks and such with practically no one coming from the officer ranks. Soviet military wasn't built on eliminating population centers, it was tactical destruction -- not that they cared much for civilian casualties.

Azeris applied the tactic of fighting everyone. They concentrated on bombing population centers because they thought this is how you fight. They had more of the same types of weapons as the Armenian side, but were not able to efficiently use them because they turned them mostly on population centers.

Armenians weren't angels in the NK and it would be silly to claim so, however, Armenians put the priority on capturing key points and causing maximum tactical (tanks and enemy guns) damage. Azeri GRAD fire and bombings of Stepanakirt caused casualties and difficulties for the population living there, but didn't help them tactically at all.

About Nakhichevan:
First of all, I don't know any Armenian person who does not consider this land as Armenian land. We had many monasteries and khachkars there that the Azeris destroyed. However, there is no Armenian population there who's right to self-determination we can support. Moreover, Armenia's main backer (Russia) will not allow an operation against Nakhichevan, and furthermore, we could end up losing the support of Iran.

Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabakh is the main focus. Everything else we can revisit another time when the geopolitical reality shifts.

[jgk3]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

First of all, I don't know any Armenian person who does not consider this land as Armenian land. We had many monasteries and khachkars there that the Azeris destroyed. However, there is no Armenian population there who's right to self-determination we can support. Moreover, Armenia's main backer (Russia) will not allow an operation against Nakhichevan, and furthermore, we could end up losing the support of Iran.

Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabakh is the main focus. Everything else we can revisit another time when the geopolitical reality shifts.

Well said.

[Federate]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenians weren't angels in the NK and it would be silly to claim so, however, Armenians put the priority on capturing key points and causing maximum tactical (tanks and enemy guns) damage. Azeri GRAD fire and bombings of Stepanakirt caused casualties and difficulties for the population living there, but didn't help them tactically at all.

Nobody can really be angels in a war but Armenians were in no way targeting civilians purposely. We couldn't do that simply because the "azeri" civilians all left NK and the surrounding areas as the war broke out and progressed. The reason why Armenian population centers were so easy to target was because there was no fear of "azeri" collateral damage. Vast majority of NK enclave, where the majority of fighting happened, was Armenian with Shushi being the only Muslim stronghold. But by the time the Armenians advanced into it, Shushi was empty of citizens and garrisoned with their troops.

The only thing they keep referring to is Khojaly which is in the border with Agdam. And that has been explained tirelessly by not only Armenians but by other people.

About Nakhichevan:
First of all, I don't know any Armenian person who does not consider this land as Armenian land. We had many monasteries and khachkars there that the Azeris destroyed. However, there is no Armenian population there who's right to self-determination we can support. Moreover, Armenia's main backer (Russia) will not allow an operation against Nakhichevan, and furthermore, we could end up losing the support of Iran.

Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabakh is the main focus. Everything else we can revisit another time when the geopolitical reality shifts.

While everyone considers, it's rare to talk about strategies regarding Nakhichevan, it's why the Jiro interview is rather interesting. I agree Artsakh should get our maximum focus. First should be getting the population to 300,000 level, in line with Nakhichevan's population.

The blockade has made life in Nakhichevan hard and the immigration/emigration ratio is negative as many leave for Turkey. However, most of these who leave sell their homes to Kurds. It's an interesting development.

Check this nice pic of it

[Federate]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

The New Year's party is over and it's back to work for the azerbaboons. However, Armenian media is still drunk as it remains silent even after 6 days (though today is Christmas).
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Aliyev Again Threatens New War For Karabakh

Published: Monday January 5, 2009

YEREVAN (RFE/RL)--Azerbaijan's President Ilham Aliyev has renewed his public threats to win back Nagorno-Karabakh by force, telling his compatriots to be ready to restart an all-out war with the Armenians “at any moment.”

Aliyev's Armenian counterpart Serzh Sarkisian, meanwhile, spent the New Year's Eve inspecting Armenian frontline positions and celebrating the holiday with soldiers stationed there.

A statement by Sarkisian's press office said he visited an undisclosed section of the Armenian-Azerbaijani line of contact with Defense Minister Seyran Ohanian to monitor the day-to-day service of Armenian troops and wish them a happy new year and merry Christmas. “The head of state made a toast to the Armed Forces of the Republic of Armenia,” it said.

Sarkisian made little mention of the unresolved conflict with Azerbaijan in his New Year's address to the nation broadcast by Armenia's television station at midnight on January 1.

“Nagorno-Karabakh is an ancient Azerbaijani land, and we will make every effort to restore Azerbaijan's territorial integrity,” Aliyev said in a similar televised speech reported by Azerbaijani media. “We can use political, diplomatic and, if necessary, military means. We do have such a right. International law allows that.”

Aliev added that the Karabakh conflict, which was halted by a Russian-mediated truce in May 1994, is not over. “Only the first stage of the war ended, and we must be prepared to free our lands of occupiers by any means and at any moment,” he said. “The military parade held [in Baku] in 2008 demonstrated our military might to everyone.”

Aliyev has regularly threatened the Armenians with another war ever since he succeeded his late father Heydar as president of Azerbaijan in 2003. He avoided making such threats in the months that followed the August war between Russia and Georgia.

Sarkisian said in the wake of the brief war that Georgia's disastrous attempt to restore its control over South Ossetia militarily will have a “sobering impact” on Azerbaijani leaders. A senior U.S. official likewise suggested in October that the threat of renewed fighting in Karabakh has “somewhat receded” because the Russian-Georgian conflict “reminded everyone in this region how terrible war is.”

In a joint declaration issued after their early November talks outside Moscow hosted by Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, Aliyev and Sarkisian pledged to seek a “political settlement” of the Karabakh conflict. Top diplomats from the United States, Russia and France subsequently urged them to finalize an agreement on the basic principles of such a settlement proposed by the three mediating powers. The mediators hope that the Armenian and Azerbaijani leaders will do that at their next meeting expected early this year.

But in a sign of lingering Armenian-Azerbaijani disagreements on the most important of those principles, Aliyev again stated that Azerbaijan will never accept the loss of Karabakh. Sarkisian and other Armenian leaders, on the other hand, maintain that Karabakh's return under Azerbaijani rule is out of question.

http://www.asbarez.com/index.html?showarticle=38371_1/6/2009_1

[Federate]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

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Azeri Campaign Aims to Finance Settlement of Turks in Javakhk

Published: Monday January 5, 2009

BAKU (Combined Sources)--A campaign to finance the relocation of Meskheti Turks to Georgia's Armenian-inhabited Samtskhe-Javakhketi region has been launched by a Meskheti association in Azerbaijan, Today.az reported.

The Veten Association of Meshkhetian Turks inaugurated the campaign during the weekend with a roundtable discussion on the issue with deputies from Azerbaijan's parliament, heads of Azeri mass media, and public officials--all seeming to support the initiative.

A bank account has been established to facilitate the settlement of the Meskheti Turks, who have lived in Turkey and Azerbaijan since the collapse of the Soviet Union. The money collected will be used to finance the construction of homes, the organizers of the fund were quoted by Today.az as saying during the roundtable.

Speaking at the event, the chairman of the Azerbaijan-Georgia friendship parliamentary group, Ganira Pashayeva, praised the initiative and pledged her country's support to help the Meshkhetian Turks “settle in their historical lands.”

“Personally, I have decided to transfer my deputy salary for January to the bank account along with the other assistance,” she said, adding that the initiative will call upon the Azeri and Turkish Diaspora in the United States to help finance the settlement.

Another deputy, Agil Abbas, also pledged to donate her January pay to the fund. "Currently, Meskheti Turks want to return to their lands and we must provide them with any support,” she said. “Every deputy has to transfer a definite amount of money to the bank account.”

The Deputy Chairman of Azerbaijan's Parliamentary Commission on Defense and Security, Aydin Mirzazade, similarly pledged to join the initiative by transferring “a definite amount of money to the banking account.”

Meanwhile, the chairman of Azerbaijan's Parliamentary Commission on Social Public, Hadi Racabli, called for parliament to appeal to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) for financial assistance in “the return of Meskhetian Turks to Georgia,” adding that the same technique can be used later to “return Azeri refugees to their lands.”

The establishment of the account comes after months of diplomatic silence on the issue. On a visit to Georgia late in 2007, Turkish Prime Minister Recap Tayyip Erdogan described the Meskheti Turks as a “bridge of friendship and cooperation” between Turkey and Georgia. He said his government would assist in the return to Georgia of the Meskheti Turks and “advocate projects that will assist the return of Meskheti Turks to their homeland and ensure rapid development of the region."

At various instances over the last few years, Turkish, Georgian, and Azeri leaders have all called for the Meskheti Turks to be settled around the area of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) oil pipeline, which currently runs through the Samtskhe-Javakheti region.

Although Turkey's government has long supported the settlement, an actual population transfer has yet to begin.

Many local analysts and community leaders believe the implementation of the settlement plan would cause severely negative consequences in the majority-Armenian region, with a population of roughly 238,000.

Samskheti-Javakheti is situated in southern Georgia, bordering Armenia's Lori Province and is the Tayk region of historical Armenia.

http://www.asbarez.com/index.html?showarticle=38373_1/6/2009_1

[SoyElTurco]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

!!!
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Azeri Campaign Aims to Finance Settlement of Turks in Javakhk

Published: Monday January 5, 2009

BAKU (Combined Sources)--A campaign to finance the relocation of Meskheti Turks to Georgia's Armenian-inhabited Samtskhe-Javakhketi region has been launched by a Meskheti association in Azerbaijan, Today.az reported.

The Veten Association of Meshkhetian Turks inaugurated the campaign during the weekend with a roundtable discussion on the issue with deputies from Azerbaijan's parliament, heads of Azeri mass media, and public officials--all seeming to support the initiative.

A bank account has been established to facilitate the settlement of the Meskheti Turks, who have lived in Turkey and Azerbaijan since the collapse of the Soviet Union. The money collected will be used to finance the construction of homes, the organizers of the fund were quoted by Today.az as saying during the roundtable.

Speaking at the event, the chairman of the Azerbaijan-Georgia friendship parliamentary group, Ganira Pashayeva, praised the initiative and pledged her country's support to help the Meshkhetian Turks “settle in their historical lands.”

“Personally, I have decided to transfer my deputy salary for January to the bank account along with the other assistance,” she said, adding that the initiative will call upon the Azeri and Turkish Diaspora in the United States to help finance the settlement.

Another deputy, Agil Abbas, also pledged to donate her January pay to the fund. "Currently, Meskheti Turks want to return to their lands and we must provide them with any support,” she said. “Every deputy has to transfer a definite amount of money to the bank account.”

The Deputy Chairman of Azerbaijan's Parliamentary Commission on Defense and Security, Aydin Mirzazade, similarly pledged to join the initiative by transferring “a definite amount of money to the banking account.”

Meanwhile, the chairman of Azerbaijan's Parliamentary Commission on Social Public, Hadi Racabli, called for parliament to appeal to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) for financial assistance in “the return of Meskhetian Turks to Georgia,” adding that the same technique can be used later to “return Azeri refugees to their lands.”

The establishment of the account comes after months of diplomatic silence on the issue. On a visit to Georgia late in 2007, Turkish Prime Minister Recap Tayyip Erdogan described the Meskheti Turks as a “bridge of friendship and cooperation” between Turkey and Georgia. He said his government would assist in the return to Georgia of the Meskheti Turks and “advocate projects that will assist the return of Meskheti Turks to their homeland and ensure rapid development of the region."

At various instances over the last few years, Turkish, Georgian, and Azeri leaders have all called for the Meskheti Turks to be settled around the area of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) oil pipeline, which currently runs through the Samtskhe-Javakheti region.

Although Turkey's government has long supported the settlement, an actual population transfer has yet to begin.

Many local analysts and community leaders believe the implementation of the settlement plan would cause severely negative consequences in the majority-Armenian region, with a population of roughly 238,000.

Samskheti-Javakheti is situated in southern Georgia, bordering Armenia's Lori Province and is the Tayk region of historical Armenia.

http://www.asbarez.com/index.html?sh...373_1/6/2009_1

so they're going to start leveraging javakheti with meskhetis now. interesting. lets see how this plays out.