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Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

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  • Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

    Hakob, I agree with your thought above.

    In fact, a long time ago I was reading an author named Jean Markale extensively, until I discovered that he is a die-hard Marxist with a different agenda than expected. Regardless of his political leanings and agenda, he had a very interesting idea about the Celts around which formed the basis of his political characterization of the Celts versus the Romans.[1]

    First, he said, the Celts were not as territorial, literal, and legalistic about such core aspects of life as "owership, proprietorship" and so on and considered land to be sacred, a living organism almost of which the Celts considered themselves a part.

    The "Urartuan" (Armenian kings of the Aramian dynasty, please, let's stop it with the Turkophile charade) king's "Oath to Haldi" (I think it was mentioned in S. Kramer's works) upon ascending the throne is remarkably similar to the later Celtic ideas as described by Markale to the land and people, entities which were considered as inseparable parts of a single, for lack of a more distinct term, organism. Vahan Mamikonian's last will upon his deathbed was also very revealing and also made evident that even in Christian times this paradigm prevailed. Even Robert Thompson admitted in his writings that the usage of the term "orenk" (law of the land) by the opponents of Sassanian (a reformed and more fascistic form of Zoroastrian) religious imposition upon Armenians used the term to denote "our traditions and attachment to the land of our forefathers."

    Second, Markale noted that despite the tribal and ethnic divisions, the Celts did consider themselves to be a part of a larger national/cultural entity and were often united against the Romans in defense of this ideal versus the more territorial and legalist concept of "country, territory, region" as separate from the overall ideal that is the nation and the land to which it is attached and to which owes its very existence and character.

    Armenians did not differ much in this sense. Armenians rarely adopted a similar political character to those of empires, legalist and possessive empires for whom displacement of their conquered subject's autonomy, dispossession of their land, weakening and impoverishment of subjects through collection of taxes and tributes, as the main order of business. Empire simply means large scale banditry that in turn glorifies its accomplishments by sanctifying with in fictitious myth. Empire means the construction of an artificial identity and mythology through imposition and destruction of the mythology (historical/ancestral memory and value systems) of its conquered subjects.

    Nothing has changed when it comes to behavior of empires in terms of what the goals and agenda are. Only the methodology and means of waging this war against target subjects has changed.

    Armenians grew out of a set of tribes in a specific territory who had blood relations. Now, when England and Germany were not yet inundated with anti-Armenian paradigms, their scholars were recognizing the pervasiveness and extensive presence of the Armenian identity and language throughout a quite large territory. Robert Ellis and Peter Jensen are my two favorite authors of an era when politics apparently didn't influence scholarship as much as it did after the well-documented anti-Armenian paradigm kicked in. [2]

    Your assertion that the "identity survives" has a lot of merit. The "identity" is strong if it is rooted the idea that there is a sacred being, this nation and land, that are one and the same, not something based on political successes or conquest, but that of being something "that just came to be" through an ancestral mythology, indicative of very ancient roots. For example, even the loss of the King as "ordained" by political entities such as the Sassanian or Byzantine courts didn't seem to dissolve the Armenian State itself, which adopted a status of Sparapetutyun upon having no Tagavor, in a Tagavorutyun that considered all its Nakharar, great and small, to be "equal and among many". [3] This "equal among many" is a strong confederate idea, a trait of very ancient and primordially formed national identities. We see a looser form of this among the Iroquois, Sioux, Cherokee, (all of whom were [con]federations) and so on in the neolithic cultures of the New World as well.

    [1] "King of the Celts" - Jean Markale

    [2] Imperialism, Racism, and Development Theories: The Construction of a Dominant Paradigm on Ottoman Armenians By Hilmar Kaiser

    [3] Armenia, Survival of a Nation - Christopher Walker
    Last edited by hagopn; 09-22-2013, 05:22 PM.

    Comment


    • Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

      Originally posted by bell-the-cat View Post
      But his (alleged) ignorance of Armenian history does not actually disprove his point, it only makes it difficult for him to argue for it!

      LOL

      I can see you digging a hole for yourself.
      You really disappoint me.

      Surely when you make a statement ( let alone debate ) about a subject some knowledge of the subject is prerequisite, otherwise its pure prejudice and bias.

      .
      Politics is not about the pursuit of morality nor what's right or wrong
      Its about self interest at personal and national level often at odds with the above.
      Great politicians pursue the National interest and small politicians personal interests

      Comment


      • Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

        Originally posted by hagopn View Post
        Hakob, I agree with your thought above.

        In fact, a long time ago I was reading an author named Jean Markale extensively, until I discovered that he is a die-hard Marxist with a different agenda than expected. Regardless of his political leanings and agenda, he had a very interesting idea about the Celts around which formed the basis of his political characterization of the Celts versus the Romans.[1]

        First, he said, the Celts were not as territorial, literal, and legalistic about such core aspects of life as "owership, proprietorship" and so on and considered land to be sacred, a living organism almost of which the Celts considered themselves a part.

        The "Urartuan" (Armenian kings of the Aramian dynasty, please, let's stop it with the Turkophile charade) king's "Oath to Haldi" (I think it was mentioned in S. Kramer's works) upon ascending the throne is remarkably similar to the later Celtic ideas as described by Markale to the land and people, entities which were considered as inseparable parts of a single, for lack of a more distinct term, organism. Vahan Mamikonian's last will upon his deathbed was also very revealing and also made evident that even in Christian times this paradigm prevailed. Even Robert Thompson admitted in his writings that the usage of the term "orenk" (law of the land) by the opponents of Sassanian (a reformed and more fascistic form of Zoroastrian) religious imposition upon Armenians used the term to denote "our traditions and attachment to the land of our forefathers."

        Second, Markale noted that despite the tribal and ethnic divisions, the Celts did consider themselves to be a part of a larger national/cultural entity and were often united against the Romans in defense of this ideal versus the more territorial and legalist concept of "country, territory, region" as separate from the overall ideal that is the nation and the land to which it is attached and to which owes its very existence and character.

        Armenians did not differ much in this sense. Armenians rarely adopted a similar political character to those of empires, legalist and possessive empires for whom displacement of their conquered subject's autonomy, dispossession of their land, weakening and impoverishment of subjects through collection of taxes and tributes, as the main order of business. Empire simply means large scale banditry that in turn glorifies its accomplishments by sanctifying with in fictitious myth. Empire means the construction of an artificial identity and mythology through imposition and destruction of the mythology (historical/ancestral memory and value systems) of its conquered subjects.

        Nothing has changed when it comes to behavior of empires in terms of what the goals and agenda are. Only the methodology and means of waging this war against target subjects has changed.

        Armenians grew out of a set of tribes in a specific territory who had blood relations. Now, when England and Germany were not yet inundated with anti-Armenian paradigms, their scholars were recognizing the pervasiveness and extensive presence of the Armenian identity and language throughout a quite large territory. Robert Ellis and Peter Jensen are my two favorite authors of an era when politics apparently didn't influence scholarship as much as it did after the well-documented anti-Armenian paradigm kicked in. [2]

        Your assertion that the "identity survives" has a lot of merit. The "identity" is strong if it is rooted the idea that there is a sacred being, this nation and land, that are one and the same, not something based on political successes or conquest, but that of being something "that just came to be" through an ancestral mythology, indicative of very ancient roots. For example, even the loss of the King as "ordained" by political entities such as the Sassanian or Byzantine courts didn't seem to dissolve the Armenian State itself, which adopted a status of Sparapetutyun upon having no Tagavor, in a Tagavorutyun that considered all its Nakharar, great and small, to be "equal and among many". [3] This "equal among many" is a strong confederate idea, a trait of very ancient and primordial formed national identities. We see a loser form of this among the Iroquois, Sioux, Cherokee, (all of whom were [con]federations) and so on in the neolithic cultures of the New World as well.

        [1] "King of the Celts" - Jean Markale

        [2] Imperialism, Racism, and Development Theories: The Construction of a Dominant Paradigm on Ottoman Armenians By Hilmar Kaiser

        [3] Armenia, Survival of a People - Christopher Walker
        Hagopn.
        You are discussing very core of our identity, my friend.
        The age of culture and how it has suvived for ages.
        One has to ask, how is that some other nations with indo european roots or specifically arian roots ( god seal my mouth for brinfging that name LOL) were so behind in unifying on their land as modern governships. Specifically, why were Germany and Italy unified only in 19th century by Kaizer or Garibaldi, when so many other nations(states) were carving world around?
        Also, why is that india being one of most populated areas in the world has never produced an empire of it's own?
        The answer my friend is in the identity of those nations, or rather the way idenity of people and their association to land has evolved in ancient times.

        Comment


        • Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

          Keep in mind that not only the IE cultures exhibited such behavior, but the Chinese in their early stages, the Native Americans - particularly of North America. The Romans were also IE, but they went on a different path altogether. They were in fact the antithesis to the Celts (and Armenians) in terms of political character. Same with the Persians, Parthians, Sassanians, three phases of an empire that were progressively more imperialistic and fascistic in character.

          Armenians were natives. Native is the key word. The not so definitive language family theories also haven't yet explained why the majority of Armenian root words are not IE. Let me elaborate a bit: Movses Boyajian, a linguist who used to publish in the now defunct Armenian Quarterly (sad story), wrote in an article (I wish I could remember the title) that only about 10% of Armenian roots have "affinity" to the IE language. That in itself says only little. Most languages in the IE tree that are dead languages, such as the Tocharian, only have scant literature to provide a vocabulary with. They could very well have been more closely related to Armenian, but we'll never know. Also, no one wants to discuss the large number of terms in common between Armenian and Sumerian.

          The Russians, IE, are imperialists, of total political construct, in stages of conquest, conflict, that even yielded newer nationalities such as the Ukrainian (U-Krayina, still don't know where the "U" came from), Byelorussia and so on. The Russians were originally theorized to have been formed by a third party at the request of the local tribes in present day Russia west of the Urals to settle their internal conflicts for them! Do you know anyone who can refute this?

          Armenians on their Plateau rarely engaged in imperialism (Parthian educated/weaned Tigran II, and that is all she wrote), and the "old school ways" won out. The "old school" won at the original home of this grouping. Armenian-like tribes in Asia Minor, however, did engage in imperialism. The Hittite/Hatti, according to the most trustworthy source on them for me (before the anti-Armenian paradigm I mention early on), Peter Jensen, were speakers of a "dialect that is Old Armenian." He had no doubts. [1] The Hittites were expansionists, conquerors, who faced the equally imperialistic at the time Egypt at the battle of Kadesh, which, many think is an important source of the Sassna Tzrer epic's plot. [2]

          Ah, let me add: Richard Cowen postulates, and he will probably be proven correct, that the Phrygians did not only not conquer the Hittites, but the name "Phrygian" is a Greek misnomer for the Hittites. There is no record of conquest of the Hittites by the Phrygians, only the assumption of a supplantation or displacement. The only "proof" that is brought for this is the usage of the Greek characters for the Phrygian language. This naturally proves nothing, since the latter Artasheshian during the Hellenistic era was also using Greek characters to also record in Armenian.

          [1] Hittiter und Armenier - Peter Jensen

          [2] David Sassunskii - Joseph Orbeli - Orbeli said, in noo uncertain terms, that "This Epic has roots that go beyond Armenian historical periods, easily far beyond the proposed 8th century."
          Last edited by hagopn; 09-22-2013, 05:01 PM.

          Comment


          • Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

            Originally posted by londontsi View Post
            LOL

            I can see you digging a hole for yourself.
            You really disappoint me.

            Surely when you make a statement ( let alone debate ) about a subject some knowledge of the subject is prerequisite, otherwise its pure prejudice and bias.

            .
            And I am disapointed that you did not see the correctness of my argument.

            And isn't pure prejudice and bias the normal situation on ANY Armenian-related message board. One only has to look at out latest arrival, hagopn, to see that golden rule in action.
            Plenipotentiary meow!

            Comment


            • Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

              Originally posted by bell-the-cat View Post
              And I am disapointed that you did not see the correctness of my argument.

              And isn't pure prejudice and bias the normal situation on ANY Armenian-related message board. One only has to look at out latest arrival, hagopn, to see that golden rule in action.
              LOL, this fellow is amusing. Pure, my friends, we have pureness on "Any Armenian-related message board." Interesting Brito-fascist perspective. The "latest arrival" that I am (which I am not, actually), I see the condescension toward Armenians to be a problem that Sims the Feline above certainly harbors.

              In another thread, I said that Sims the Feline is a Russophobe and expects everyone else to be one.. Otherwise, he may very well (actually, always will, predictably so) begin to pour many liters of bile on you if you do not join his Russophobic choir.

              Sims the Feline is a ma who grinds axes as a primary occupation.

              The sign at the entrance of this forum should say "Beware of Toxic Felines"

              Oh, did I mention that he has been banned from other forums precisely because of this?
              Last edited by hagopn; 09-22-2013, 06:23 PM.

              Comment


              • Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

                I have heard our elders say.....while we are busy eating Shish Kabob and drinking Aragh, the Turks and the xxxs were planning to cut our heads off and take over the world.

                I am with Lampron on this one.
                B0zkurt Hunter

                Comment


                • Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

                  Originally posted by Eddo211 View Post
                  I have heard our elders say.....while we are busy eating Shish Kabob and drinking Aragh, the Turks and the xxxs were planning to cut our heads off and take over the world.

                  I am with Lampron on this one.
                  All generalizations and wrong, including this one.

                  Please, read up on the Armenakan movement, Armen Yergarian, Grigor Artsruni, Mgrditch Portukalian, and then offer opinions on whether or not Armenians were eating shish kebab.

                  Granted, most unfortunately were playing "socialist brotherhood" and lobbying for a "Constitutional (Ottoman) Empire" of Egalite, Fraternitee blah blah, such as my least favorite of Armenian intellectuals, Krikor Zohrab. That is true. Armenian leaders and intellectuals, pushed off to Bolis, Tiflis, Baku, Moscva, were mostly lulled to sleep and were probably mostly not even aware of the condition their people were facing.

                  But then you had Yergarian's leadership role is creating underground weapons depots in Van's Aygestan district. You have the Armenakans working to slowly awaken nationalist feelinsg abmong the majority rural "ramik" populations. You have Grigor Artsruni financing this movement. YOu have Grigor Artsuni writing extensively about the need for caution in adopting a radical stance, such as the Hnchaks and later Dashnaks. You have Artsruni constantly proposing to first do the grass roots work, arm the populations with knowledge and weapons, prepare a clear strategy, above all concentrate the Armenian intellectual, financial, political and military mass in Van and Armenia proper instead of spreading out into the four corners of the globe. Please, learn about what was being done, and you will learn much about what prevented these things from coming to fruition. That lesson will definitely awaken you as to what can be done.

                  Blanket statements prove nothing except pomposity. Please, let us avoid this.

                  I was alarmed, for example, to listen to a cartoonist named Robert Sahakyants and his lies particularly about Grigor Artsruni. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhKDfNrBQ8g

                  Sahakyants, while engaged in his anti-Armenian rant, managed to slip in what his handlers had taught him: He, much as a great many Turks I encounter on the net, blurts out some nonsense about how "... even Grigor Artsruni didn't like western Armenia". Turks on the net use this exact idea. When I say anti-Armenian, I mean truly anti-Armenian tirades during which he even recommends Armenians to adopt some "international language" as their official language and treat their own as a regional dialect. The "didn't like western Armenia" is taken out of context. Grigor Artsruni was severely criticizing the Armenian complacency and ease with which they had managed to concentrate their efforts in the Imperial Capital as "The Good Loyal Millet." Was he wrong? What in the world would that have anything to do with "like" or "dislike" for western Armenia? You would not believe how many believed him!
                  Last edited by hagopn; 09-22-2013, 09:38 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

                    Turks know us much more than we may think.....unless you realize that you will always be at a disadvantage no matter what has been written in books.
                    B0zkurt Hunter

                    Comment


                    • Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

                      So, what do you propose? We don't learn anything from history and eat shish kebab?

                      You remind me of the days a fellow named David Boyadjian was campaigning for a "No Place For Denial" law to be passed in every municipality there are Armenians and oust the ADL.

                      Everyone laughed. "Dont' you know who you're going up against? They're the most powerful political force on the planet."

                      He was able to get the ADL kicked out of Belmont, MA in 1 week.

                      Then he got the ADL kicked out of Watertown, MA. Then another, then another...

                      Then the same people said, again, when he asked the west coast to help. They said, "Don't you know who you're dealing with?..."

                      Listen, there is always an excuse to not do something.

                      I prefer to learn and pass on what I've learned.
                      Last edited by hagopn; 09-22-2013, 10:02 PM.

                      Comment

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