SEVRES treaty & WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

[Vrej1915]

Re: SEVRES treaty & WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

http://www.armeniapedia.org/images/7/7b/Map-western-big.jpg

[Vrej1915]

Re: SEVRES treaty & WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

http://www.armeniapedia.org/images/7...estern-big.jpg

Map of Western Armenia according Sevres

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Boundary_between_Turkey_and_Armenia_as_determined_by_Woodrow_Wilson_1920.jpg

If anybody does know of better maps, more detailed , please do post them.

[lampron]

Re: SEVRES treaty & WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

"Not sure how much of this is wishful thinking, self consoling propaganda."
Yeh that is all it is. Treaties are only as good as the power to enforce them.

The Armenian army definitely wasn't in a position to enforce it

In 1920 Armenia celebrated this amazing victory, after centuries getting most of her historic territories, which also showed that Great Britain, France, USA finally had come to its rescue. USA/Pres Wilson would even oversee Armenia's security.What could go wrong?

In great excitement, Dashnak and others in Armenia started to turn against Russia and Soviets...who needs them when you have the civilized West 100% on your side?

When Kemal attacked, the Armenian army could not stop him. As the Turkish army advanced, threatening to destroy Armenia, Simon Vratsyan says his urgent and desperate telegrams to London and Paris were not being answered...

The Armenian army was constantly retreating,the Turks kept massacring as usual and were now just outside Yerevan.
London, Paris, Washington, Rome, none of the "allies" would intervene. They finally appealed to Armenians and Turks to "end their mutial hostilities".
How comforting!
Did any of the "allies" care if Armenia was destroyed completely?

Who stopped Kemal?The Soviet army did.

The Soviet army demanded that Kemal vacate Alexandropol/Gyumri. But Kars, Surmaloo, Nakhichevan lost. Whose fault was this disaster?

Have lessons been learned? Judging by the anti-Russian propaganda sweeping Armenia today, the answer is NO

[Eddo211]

Re: SEVRES treaty & WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

The Armenian army definitely wasn't in a position to enforce it

In 1920 Armenia celebrated this amazing victory, after centuries getting most of her historic territories, which also showed that Great Britain, France, USA finally had come to its rescue. USA/Pres Wilson would even oversee Armenia's security.What could go wrong?

In great excitement, Dashnak and others in Armenia started to turn against Russia and Soviets...who needs them when you have the civilized West 100% on your side?

When Kemal attacked, the Armenian army could not stop him. As the Turkish army advanced, threatening to destroy Armenia, Simon Vratsyan says his urgent and desperate telegrams to London and Paris were not being answered...

The Armenian army was constantly retreating,the Turks kept massacring as usual and were now just outside Yerevan.
London, Paris, Washington, Rome, none of the "allies" would intervene. They finally appealed to Armenians and Turks to "end their mutial hostilities".
How comforting!
Did any of the "allies" care if Armenia was destroyed completely?

Who stopped Kemal?The Soviet army did.

The Soviet army demanded that Kemal vacate Alexandropol/Gyumri. But Kars, Surmaloo, Nakhichevan lost. Whose fault was this disaster?

Have lessons been learned? Judging by the anti-Russian propaganda sweeping Armenia today, the answer is NO

Well said

But there is no lesson to learn here because we are not Russians, or Turkish, or whatever.......we are the Armenians, don't make the mistake to compare us with Kurds or others.

[Eddo211]

Re: SEVRES treaty & WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

....and you believe that.

[lampron]

Re: SEVRES treaty & WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

Well said

But there is no lesson to learn here because we are not Russians, or Turkish, or whatever.......we are the Armenians, don't make the mistake to compare us with Kurds or others.

When the Turkish army arrived in Kars, it is said that a number of Armenian generals in the city were asleep. Probably they were dreaming that the British and French armies would arrive at any moment
But literally probably the whole of Armenia was asleep. The surprise element was important for Kemal. Armenian officials refused to believe that the British and French would not save them. But they forgot that in January 1920 the French had co-operated with Kemal in the massacre of Armenians in Kilikia. The French were also training Kemal's army according to different sources

[Eddo211]

Re: SEVRES treaty & WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

We weren't dreaming.......we were betrayed.

Never heard of a country that lost the world war but came out on top.

[Vrej1915]

Re: SEVRES treaty & WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

Doest Brest-Litovsk remind something???....

Moskwa, Kars treaties...??

[Vrej1915]

Re: SEVRES treaty & WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

When the Turkish army arrived in Kars, it is said that a number of Armenian generals in the city were asleep. Probably they were dreaming that the British and French armies would arrive at any moment
But literally probably the whole of Armenia was asleep. The surprise element was important for Kemal. Armenian officials refused to believe that the British and French would not save them. But they forgot that in January 1920 the French had co-operated with Kemal in the massacre of Armenians in Kilikia. The French were also training Kemal's army according to different sources

My deer, why a selective memory?
Would you remind us about the russian(bolshevik or not, yet russian) alliance with Kemal who stabbed Armenia from the back?
Ever heard of the XI army????
The russian(bolshevik) fifth column inside Armenia, who sabotaged the Armenian defenses, in name of internationalist brotherhood (with Turks of course)?? In Kars, Alexandropol, Ijevan??
The russian trains loaded with arms and gold, sent to Kemal???....
The russian candies to 'lure' Turks on their side, namely Kars, Ardahan, Olti, Ararat, Nakhitchevan, Shushi, Gantzak....

First lesson that must be learnt, is Vital necessity of INDEPENDENCE.
And Independence means independence from Russia, since it is most of the times Russia who sells our lands to Turks, for its bazars.....
Without the ability to decide our faith according OUR NATIONAL INTERESTS, and certainly not other empire's orders, we can achieve nothing.

Before Miyatzyal and Azad, we need ANGAKH.

We have huge responsability, for not being ready to fight alone, if need was, for our own interests. But if any other nation is to blame, after the Turks, it is certainly Russians.
Certainly, no one is supposed to fight for us.
But in the same time, we have to decide, according our interests, and not that of others, since other nations, specially neighboring empires will never take our interests into account. Even more so, when they are insured of blind (russo)-philia, no matter how great their crimes against our vital interests might be....

So for me, Lesson N1: First and above all, keep your decisions making ability : INDEPENDENCE.
Lesson N 2: Do not trust ANYBODY, apart ourselves.
Lesson N 3 : NO unconditional love or sympathy, towards ANY power, First of all, END of RUSSOPHILIA.

[Vrej1915]

Re: SEVRES treaty & WILSONIAN DELIMITATION's Actual Force

A rudimentary reminder of roots and results of our blind Russophilia....